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Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member
Username: Allyn

Post Number: 1227
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 3:29 pm:   

Mitch, that's an interesting notion that I never thought about. I'm not sure I agree there's a conscience effort though. It must be difficult to design a car that won't break for 120k miles but then have so many problems it can't be efficiently repaired after that. I'm not aware of any mileage/time related parts that have an effective 'self destruct' mechanisim. Perhaps there is a key part like a crankshaft or something can indeed be engineered to be 100% reliable, then give up the ghost....but chances are such a design would result in a fair amount of failures within the warrenty period which would then cost a fortune to repair, by design.
Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Intermediate Member
Username: Mitch_alsup

Post Number: 1218
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 2:00 pm:   

"I am amazed on how some people distrust car manufacturers regarding maintenance of their vehicles. It is insane to think that there is a manufacturer conspiracy to dupe the owner in NOT maintaining his/her vehicle properly."

Warning: not Ferrari related

Take a typical GM* car, designed and built to last 120,000 miles, and/or 10 years (through various government regulations). Yet, if the buying public can find some way for these vehicles to last 200,000 miles or 20 years, GM will be out of business because the number of cars needed to service the demand will go down by 45%!

So, you have to take some of the manufacture recommended maintanence with the grain of soduim chloride indicating that they (GM) wants the car to fall apart at 120,001 miles! in order to stay in business!

With this in mind, you should treat the manufacture recommendation as the MINIMUM amount of service to be applied to your car not the maximum! Unless, of course, you just use the car for a few years and pass the worn out vehicle on to the next sucker.......

*I am not picking on GM any more than any other volume manufacturer. But if any manufacture developed the technology to build cars that would last 500,000 miles (at the current cost structure), the entire industry would collapse!
V.Z. (Ama328)
Member
Username: Ama328

Post Number: 282
Registered: 11-2002
Posted on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 12:43 pm:   

Robert Sikorsky wrote a series of books in the 1970s & '80s dealing with wear/tear/breakin/gas mileage issues & cars. One of his books, 'Break it in Right!' specifically deals with engine break in procedures. ISBN = 0-380-75586-6, publisher is AVON BOOKS.
His stuff is based on research done in the aviation biz(read, unlimited $$), and is worth a read. Might check Amazon.com, library, www.tatteredcover.com, etc., i don't know if it's still available.

His approach has elements of many posted comments here...i tried this breaking in a new 328 engine, and seemed to have good results; however, short of blowing up an engine or having other obvious problems, it's kind of tough to judge the results of -any- kind of break in procedure.

Seems i vaguely recall some article yrs ago in a car mag by some guys who took a new 365 Daytona off the car lot and raced it a some place like Sebring, or maybe the 24hrs at Daytone(this wuz in the 70's). One of their comments was that the car ran better later in the race cuz they'd 'broken' it in so fast just racing it from brand new... :-)
Andrew S. (Andrew911)
Junior Member
Username: Andrew911

Post Number: 61
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 12:23 pm:   

Well Nick, in reference to your comment on manufacturer conspiracy, I very much agree with you that I don't buy that theory. As example, my BMW had a 1,200 mile break-in period, yet a warranty that lasts 50,000 miles. I don't think they recommend going easy so nothing breaks in the first 1,200 miles, only to then have to "worry" about claimes for the next 48K miles.. I couldn't see Ferrari doing that either.

I do find this to be an interesting thread as people are all over the board on how they think a car should be broken in....I say, when in doubt do as the owner's manual says- at a minimum. As Brian points out, if you want to increase fluid change intervals fine, but I still say I would take it easy on a car when in break in, and gradually bring revs up after the break in period over a couple hundred miles. That's my opinion anyway...
Nick Berry (Nickb)
Junior Member
Username: Nickb

Post Number: 147
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 11:25 am:   

I am amazed on how some people distrust car manufacturers regarding maintenance of their vehicles. It is insane to think that there is a manufacturer conspiracy to dupe the owner in NOT maintaining his/her vehicle properly.

Stick with what they recommend and you will enjoy your car a lot longer and have higher resale value.

jake (Enzoforza)
Junior Member
Username: Enzoforza

Post Number: 62
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 9:18 am:   

what about one of these http://www.magneticdrainplugs.com/

I have no affiliation, but I have them on a couple of my vehicles. Its interseting to check it out every oil change. Ive seen a good amount of material stuck to the plug each time.
Andrew S. (Andrew911)
Junior Member
Username: Andrew911

Post Number: 60
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Friday, October 17, 2003 - 9:01 am:   

Robin- good post- hehe..... Sounds like a prescription for stress relief as well!
Robin Masters (Slowcar)
New member
Username: Slowcar

Post Number: 3
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 11:14 pm:   

Drive it hard. Add oil. Repeat often.
Andrew S. (Andrew911)
Junior Member
Username: Andrew911

Post Number: 58
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 11:45 am:   

Gary- while I would certainly love to get a new Ferrari, I buy used because my taste in cars outreaches the amount I can spend or budget to spend on a car :-) I'm on my 3rd 911 over the past 14 years though, and because I buy them clean and with low mileage, they tend to hold their value (or increase!) Because I don't put a lot of miles on my weekend car & its garaged, the depreciation was mostly worked out on my prior 2 911's, and most likely this one as well.
Gary Brauch (Gary_brauch)
New member
Username: Gary_brauch

Post Number: 15
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 11:09 am:   

Rob -

>>if you disconnect the battery, will the computer loose it's info?<<

Now that would be too easy, wouldn't it? I understand it is stored in some kind of flash memory with its own power supply. And BMW is doing a LOT of computer reading these days with the hundreds of E46 M3 massive engine failures.
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts

Post Number: 6621
Registered: 12-2000
Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 11:05 am:   

Gary, if you disconnect the battery, will the computer loose it's info?
Gary Brauch (Gary_brauch)
New member
Username: Gary_brauch

Post Number: 13
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 11:00 am:   

Yeah, that would be one sophisticated computer if it could tell you the red line shift was made with the engine still cold. It's possible, but I just can't imagine the engineers programming it that way. BTW, my '02 M3 could be read for over-revs, but not for red line shifts. As long as the RPM did not exceed max, it was not logged in the computer.
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts

Post Number: 6620
Registered: 12-2000
Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 10:49 am:   

Nothing wrong with redline shifts, if mine didn't have a couple hundred a year, I wouldn't want the car. However, cold redline shifts... will the computer tell you that?
J.D. Smythe (Jeff)
Member
Username: Jeff

Post Number: 297
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 10:25 am:   

That's exactly why I like to buy new cars! You have no way of knowing (in most cases) how the car has been treated, and abuse like this won't even show up in a PPI I suspect.
Gary
I believe the car's computer keeps track of all red line shifts. Any Ferrari dealer can access this info.
Gary Brauch (Gary_brauch)
New member
Username: Gary_brauch

Post Number: 12
Registered: 10-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 10:21 am:   

Andrew -

>>full throttle red-line shifts for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. I was cringing as I looked at the oil and even water temperature gagues still on their cold stops!!<<

That's exactly why I like to buy new cars! You have no way of knowing (in most cases) how the car has been treated, and abuse like this won't even show up in a PPI I suspect.
Andrew S. (Andrew911)
Junior Member
Username: Andrew911

Post Number: 57
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 10:00 am:   

Interesting view of break-in Brian. I guess I'm more old-school in the way I would break-in a car, but I actually don't think you'll have a problem either way and maybe your method is better- I'll be the first to admit, I don't know.

By the way, this break-in talk is moot for myself, as I always buy my cars pre-owned...hopefully you guys are taking care of your cars because when I finally can get a Ferrari, it will probably be one of the cars you guys are driving now :-) Thus my desire to spread the word on proper warm-up procedures :-)

My first Ferrari ride was a few years ago in a 550 marinello. The owner started the car, let it idle for about a minute, we backed out of the driveway, then full throttle red-line shifts for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd. I was cringing as I looked at the oil and even water temperature gagues still on their cold stops!! It was the equavilent of fingernails on a chalkboard to me... He didn't care I guess, as he went and bought a 360 spider about a year later. I hope the current owner of the car I will someday own isn't doing that! But now I'm getting off topic- sorry about that....

Andrew
Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member
Username: Kennedy

Post Number: 470
Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 8:44 am:   

> People seem to follow religiously the 5-year period to do timing belts,
> and the recommended oil change and service intervals

Not in my part of the world... no way we leave our fluids in that long! The recommended oil change intervals are ludicrous, trying to make their cars look more and more maintenance-free (leveraging the longer life cycle of synthetic oil), but ignoring the long-term effects of dirt and the other crud that gets suspended in that oil. The warranty will long be over by the time those effects are seen.

If you want to feel what its like to lose your brakes and go agricultural during aggressive driving, just follow the manufacturers recommended brake fluid intervals. Way too much moisture will be absorbed into your brake fluid by then.


> ... I wouldn't understand why they wouldn't break in the car per the manual as well.

Note that the manufacturers care that the magazines get cars performing at 100%, but they don't really care if you break your car in in such a way that you only get 90%. A long gentle break-in essentially gets rid of miles and time off the warranty with gentle (less likely to expose weaknesses) driving.

> By the way, your #1 step of your Stardale- why would you idle the car to warm it up?
> That is actually not good for cars- they should be driven gently until oil temps get to
> operating range...

Normally, I would agree with you. But in this case, the car's oil has presumably not been changed since the first run in by the factory... and thus, presumably, is fairly polluted with metal bits. I want to run those through the gears as little as possible... just warm up the engine (which should be fairly protected by the oil filter), then quickly warm up the drive train and do the break-in procedure which will likely add to the metal shavings, then get that polluted oil out of there. From then on, I'd warm up with a roughly one-minute idle (I wait until its warm enough the emission stuff has backed off and the engine is idling smooth... roughly a minute) and then gentle driving until the whole drivetrain is warm.
Andrew S. (Andrew911)
Junior Member
Username: Andrew911

Post Number: 56
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 8:17 am:   

Well Brian, I would still say to do whatever the factory owner's manual for your particular car says to do for break-in. Everyone has their own opinion I guess, but I would say when in doubt, take the factory's advice on break in. People seem to follow religiously the 5-year period to do timing belts, and the recommended oil change and service intervals- I wouldn't understand why they wouldn't break in the car per the manual as well. But, I certainly am no mechainic.

By the way, your #1 step of your Stardale- why would you idle the car to warm it up? That is actually not good for cars- they should be driven gently until oil temps get to operating range... Good luck with the car- its going to be awesome!!

Andrew
Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member
Username: Kennedy

Post Number: 469
Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 6:39 am:   

Rob suggests:
> Well, check out the theory on this site, with modern engines it seems that maybe
> you will take power away from it if you don't run it hard from the get go.
> Of course after oil temps up.
>
> http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm

That's a radical departure... but makes a lot of sense. Has anyone seen a rebuttal to MotoMan's "Break-In Secrets"? Anyone see any of the advise there that they would dispute? Any reason it would NOT apply to cars as well as to bikes?

I am tempted then to:
Take delivery of my new Stradale,
1) warm it up good sitting still (to minimize gear mashing of metal shavings), then
2) do successive sprints and decelerations at 50%, 75%, and then 100% power, then
3) return quickly to dealer and have the oil changed
4) drive to Motorsport Ranch (or nearest track)
5) drive a couple track sessions, stopping early in the first one to make sure nothing is leaking or loose
6) drive back to dealer and have the oil changed and everything else checked over
7) drive car like normal, but change oil a third time at about 1500 miles
8) break-in done.

My logic:

When I first get the car, the oil probably already has shavings and crap in it, so I want to very quickly do the ring-sealing procedure and get that oil changed... and certainly want to do that before I take it to the track and experience all those g-forces sloshing that shaving-filled oil into every nook and cranny of the engine.

After the first quick change, though, I am likely far from done wearing down the gears and such... and may not be done ring-sealing. So, head out to the track, truly drive the engine 100%, and put those g-forces to work getting all the rest of the engine polished and cleaned out. But since that will likely shake loose and wipe down a lot more metal shavings, change that oil.

Then the 1500 mile change is to take care of anything that happens to be missed with the break-in procedures.

Note that the factory seems to do very similar to this procedure by running in the engine on the stand and then some vigorous test driving... but do they ever change the oil?

Thoughts? Opinions? Counter-recommendations?

Brian
Nick Berry (Nickb)
Junior Member
Username: Nickb

Post Number: 146
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 6:04 pm:   

Break in period has little to do with the engine. It is more to do with letting the rest of the car "settle in" i.e., suspension, brakes, hoses, clamps,oil, lubricant's so on.
Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Intermediate Member
Username: Mitch_alsup

Post Number: 1202
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 4:57 pm:   

The web site posted has an interesting theory. Run the crap out of the engine in its first few minutes.

My take: The factory hot shoes drive the crap out of the car and set the rings for us. It is, then, out job to treat the engine with respect for the first 500-3000 miles; then run the snot out of them regularly!

So the question comes down to what is 'respect'?
Ryan Sabga (Sherpa23)
Junior Member
Username: Sherpa23

Post Number: 202
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 3:26 pm:   

Have any of you gotten cars with higher delivery miles, like 105 or so? Apparently, those were the ones that didn't pass the driving test after the build and needed some more work before shipping. I don't know if these are better or worse cars but it would be interesting if anyone had ever gotten one.
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts

Post Number: 6607
Registered: 12-2000
Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 1:31 pm:   

Well, check out the theory on this site, with modern engines it seems that maybe you will take power away from it if you don't run it hard from the get go. Of course after oil temps up.

http://www.mototuneusa.com/break_in_secrets.htm
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member
Username: Parkerfe

Post Number: 3074
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 1:24 pm:   

The manual on my 1982 BB512i indicates a run in time of 3000 miles I believe.
Andrew S. (Andrew911)
Junior Member
Username: Andrew911

Post Number: 55
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 10:42 am:   

I don't think any motor- even a modern motor- can break in fully after 1 hour of running on the stand in the factory and 50 miles of test driving. I would break in the car per the manual- keep revs down for the first 500 miles, then invest in an early oil change to get out any metal shavings that may be in the oil (even if that oil change isn't specifically recommended).

With everyone being so careful to change timing belts after 5-years, I would be surprised if people on this site also weren't breaking in their Ferraris per the driver manual instructions (including not holding a constant RPM on a long highway trip for instance)... Even after the initial break in period, I would slowly bring the revs up over the next several hundred miles before going right to red line.

Also, I agree with "911 fan", Dave Handa and Tom to always wait for the oil to warm up to full operating temp before doing full throttle and/or high rev shifting- even after break-in. Proper way to warm up is by driving the car gently and at moderate rpms, not idling the car for 20 minutes by the way.

I can imagine your pain Phil at waiting for break-in to end- hang in there :-)
Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member
Username: Allyn

Post Number: 1219
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 8:08 am:   

I like the idea of a quick oil change; 500 miles or so on a new car. And I agree with Thomas that you want to baby any car new to you until you get used to it. I did that with my Lotus as well; I wasn't nearly up to the cornering ability of the car when I first got it and had to learn it's manners at speed. A powerful car like a new Ferrari will be even more dangerous in inexperienced and overly agressive hands.
Thomas Bergstraesser (Thomas_b)
New member
Username: Thomas_b

Post Number: 5
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 7:02 pm:   

>>>>I don't buy the logic that "Something may come loose" as a reason to keep it under 5000 RPM. If that is the case, it seems to me that whatever might be wrong isn't going to get better with age.

Phil let me clarify. You don't want to push the car for the first hundred miles simply to avoid that you total it in case of a failure in material or assembly. Example: if one of the hoses has a major structural defect you will most like find out pretty soon. Not good if you find out at max rpm, i.e. maximum stress. Another example, guy buys a Porsche 996 TT and the dealer forgets to remove the pieces that block the springs of the suspension for shipping - you don't find this out at max. acceleration or braking etc.

So all I am saying is to not push the car right from the start - "shake it down" and get used to it - keep it below some threshold - 5K rmp seemed reasonable to me so I did that
Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member
Username: Maranelloman

Post Number: 3016
Registered: 1-2002
Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 5:26 pm:   

I think Ali is right. My 550 came with ~~80-90 miles driven at the factory. And, based on my factory visit, they don't drive delicately! But, I do suspect that they do a significant warm-up...which also helps as a leak-detection period!

:-)
Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Intermediate Member
Username: Mitch_alsup

Post Number: 1196
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 5:22 pm:   

Don't each of these cars get a test drive by the factory hot-shooes anyway before being loaded on the boat?! I'm sure these guys just drive sedately like grandma would like--NOT! On the other hand, they probably get the car completely up to temperature before "doing whatever they do" during the test drive.
Ali Haas (Aehaas)
Junior Member
Username: Aehaas

Post Number: 173
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 10:38 am:   

I always warm my engine before higher RPMs regardless of the car's milage. I ran bursts to full RPM during the 600 mile break in period of my 575, but not under high load. I just drove down the road in first until I hit redline then eased off. Again, not under load.

However, I do not think this break in period is that important as some think. What I do feel is really bad, even borderline abuse is gunning it before the engine temperature is up there. This has to be very bad in my book as thick oil just cannot flow to give lubrication.

aehaas
Phil Horvitz (Philh)
New member
Username: Philh

Post Number: 8
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 10:15 am:   

I don't buy the logic that "Something may come loose" as a reason to keep it under 5000 RPM. If that is the case, it seems to me that whatever might be wrong isn't going to get better with age.

So - What's the verdict? Are people really staying below 5000 for the first 500 miles?
That would seem to require super-human self-discipline.

Ryan Sabga (Sherpa23)
Junior Member
Username: Sherpa23

Post Number: 194
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 9:29 am:   

Thomas is correct.
N'din (Abangdin)
Junior Member
Username: Abangdin

Post Number: 92
Registered: 7-2003
Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 5:27 am:   

All Ferrari engines are run on the dyno for a specific period before they are assembled in the car. Those who have visited the factory will be able to see the "engine" section where these engines are run. After assembly each Ferrari is taken out on the road by the factory driver to give it a once-over.

The runnig-in period is basically to allow the different parts, especially the suspension to settle-in.
Thomas Bergstraesser (Thomas_b)
New member
Username: Thomas_b

Post Number: 4
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 12:46 am:   

Nowadays tolerances of the mechanical engine parts are such that you don’t need to run the engine in for a very long time. Not sure about Ferrari but other car manufacturers I have seen run the engine once it is assembled on an engine dyno stand and flush the oil with high pressure to get particles out.

Ferrari recommends a 600miles (1000 km) break in period not exceeding 5K rpm. In addition they recommend not to exceed 4K rpm until water >149-158F (65-70C) and not to run the engine with constant high rpm’s for a long time.

Here is what I did with my 360 and why:
- 600 miles not over 5K because you never know what may come loose, i.e. has been messed up at assembly
- 1000 miles always with varying rpm even on a highway – this has to do with seating the piston rings – lost of opinions about this out there – I know that with a 996 TT it makes a difference
- 1500 miles change engine oil – in case something had to be broken in it should be done by now – if there are particles in the oil get them out now

I am religious about oil temperature and never exceed 4K rmp before oil is up to 170 F as Dave said (even with the F1 gearbox which tends to make you looks stupid if cold or you don’t push the car).

Hope that helps.
dave handa (Davehanda)
Intermediate Member
Username: Davehanda

Post Number: 2027
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 11:39 pm:   

I believe Ferrari has always said to wait until the engine oil reaches around 170f before running the revs over 4k. Double check the manual, but I think they still say something about a "break-in" period, but the last show I saw about the Ferrari factory showed that the engines are already broken-in for an hour or more on a dyno before installation, run at all rpms from idle to max redline. Trying to remember the source, whether this was the recent show on Discovery channel, or perhaps the Ferrari World Club DVD I received a couple years ago...From what I have heard, those 70 miles put on by their test drivers are not "easy" miles... :-) They don't want that car leaving the factory and not be fully "capable"... so they have to make sure it is...
911 Fan (911fan)
Junior Member
Username: 911fan

Post Number: 76
Registered: 5-2003
Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 11:19 pm:   

Phil,

The most important consideration is to take it easy (ie, keep it under about 4K RPM) until the oil reaches normal operating temperature. In my own 360, this requires a good 10-15 mile drive. Note that the oil reaches temp a long time after the water does.

But once the oil temp is OK, you can enjoy the entire RPM range.

At least this is what my F dealer and his service center manager both told me.

And this is what I've done since day one. :-)

Have fun! Hope you're planning to put some real miles on it - please don't become just another garage queen owner.

Phil Horvitz (Philh)
New member
Username: Philh

Post Number: 7
Registered: 9-2003
Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 11:03 pm:   

When I picked up my 360 Spider, it had about 70 miles on it. I asked about break in period and the dealer said that all the 360's are "basically broken in at the factory" and I didn't need to worry about it.

However, the manual says to keep the RPM's down for the first 500 miles. It's taking all my self control and restraint to do this..(i.e., it's killing me..)

Any advice?

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