| Author | Message | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 979 Registered: 2-2002 |
Ken: I always thought owning a Lotus was a religious experience...now I know I was right.  | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3396 Registered: 2-2001 |
perpetual change is 1 of the governing laws of this universe so it would seem that Concours judges & restorers are fighting a losing battle against reality | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 1236 Registered: 10-2001 |
If I have a Ford Galaxie 500 and blow the engine, and replace it with the same type Ford engine, I think it's still a Ford. If I darn a hole in my sock, it's the same sock. But what if I keep darning holes until there is no original thread left. Is it STILL the same sock? I have a theory I use for my 31 year old Lotus which won't hold water in any concourse etc. environment, but I believe it holds true. My car has a 'spirit' of what it is. I can change the carpeting and my car says, "Thank you, I now have a nicer interior." The spirit of the carpeting is the same since the car came with carpeting. Same with a piston; if I replace a piston it's the same car and it says "Thank you, now I can run again". But how about the engine? Well the car is the same car but a new engine will change the car's manners a lot more than new carpeting. So the car is changed in personality a bit, but it's still the same car. It retains the same spirit even though it's grown up a bit. And if all the bits get changed? Well, I'm still the same person I was when I was 7, but all my bits have changed. Am I still me? I'm very different than I was but yes, I'm still me. I doubt the Pebble Beach judges would agree however. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Intermediate Member Username: Psk Post Number: 1065 Registered: 11-2002 |
David,
Firstly I do apologise for my flowery language in one of my previous posts, and yes I did wrongly accuse North American Shell Historics of refusing the entry of the SWB. Again please accept my sinsere apology. It does appear though in your (superior sounding) posts that the SWB would not have been accepted by the North American Shell Historics too. Maybe I am wrong though. The point I am making (and yes I am aware of the Ferrari certification program) is that this matching of engine/gearbox/differential numbers to chassis numbers and putting a black mark against cars that do not match is hypocritical to say the least. The Ferrari company by anyones admission was not the best recorder of details, and used to change details on cars willy nilly in the early days to move the unit out the door to some unsuspecting customer. Now they are playing high and mighty rejecting perfectly genuine cars from having the holy grail of Certification from Ferrari. What they are doing is denying genuine cars that have actually moved under their own steam (er, petrol) and been used like a car is supposed to. This sometimes means that something gets damaged. And one of the easiest methods to fix a damaged engine/gearbox, etc. is simply to replace it. Is the car still a Ferrari, still genuine, still great to own and drive ... ofcourse it is!. But no, Ferrari and others, think some sort of mortal sin has occurred and this car should be shunned from the inner circle (of snobs??). Now I do not know the details of the SWB Ferrari that was rejected, and for all I know it might have a Can Am Ferrari engine shoe horned in, but if it just has another 3 litre Ferrari engine of correct spec. and the numbers don't match the original build sheet ... then denying entry is just a joke! The SWB was a race car, built to uphold the Ferrari racing legend ... and I am pretty dam sure when they were actively racing the owners could not give a dam which actual engine was under the hood, as long as it was a good un', and they won. This sort of direction setting is forcing owners of Ferraris to NOT use their car ... very narrow minded in my humble opinion. David, if you support this attitude, and I think you do by reading your posts, then I think you are missing the point of Ferrari ownership. It should not be about numbers and selling price, etc. ... again in my humble opinion. The only numbers it should be about is what rev's you were pulling when you drifted her into that sweeper on that personal best lap earlier today. That is what Ferraris were built for, pure driving enjoyment not auditing. Anyway, I will probably never be able to afford to purchase an historic Ferrari, but in some ways I am glad, because I do not want to be associated with this sort of elitism ... which is all it is. Respectively Pete ps1: Please note that I have not read North American Shell Hisotrics rules, and that I am just trying to discuss the underlying direction with Ferrari ownership and usage. ps2: Please note that I am personally against any unnecessary mutilation of any Ferrari, such as the creation of replicas from so called less interesting models. Thus I would prefer a car to stay original, but I do not believe this should be down to the very last detail. Such as that the grease in the steering tie rod ends should never be replaced, etc. because it is no longer how it left the factory. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Intermediate Member Username: Psk Post Number: 1054 Registered: 11-2002 |
Just to make sure I'm do not confuse, regarding:
I ofcourse mean that it is still the correct type of Ferrari engine just the wrong engine number. Pete | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 837 Registered: 4-2002 |
Agree completely Pete... great post. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2838 Registered: 10-2002 |
Pete I think you put it too gently. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Intermediate Member Username: Psk Post Number: 1053 Registered: 11-2002 |
What a load of absolute sh!t. Just because the engine has been changed does not make it a NON-genuine Ferrari. Stop smoking weed Ferrari or North American Shell Historics. If an engine sh!ts itself ... you have to stick another one in don't you. Or would you rather destroy the rest of the car. All I can say to this crap is that if I owned that SWB I would tell North American Shell Historics to stick something very sharp up their pomperous arses and to remember that Ferraris are cars not f**ken oil paintings, and that engines and gearboxes are replaceable items, replaced to keep the car moving and racing like cars are supposed to. Amazed at this stupidity! Pete ps: Every single car over 20 years old would be ineligible to start any of their races, except for ones that somebody has filed off the old engine number and restamped the correct one. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2822 Registered: 10-2002 |
David Ferrari, (On their web site) are the one's calling David's car a P4. As none of my car's are ever going to race or be sold in my lifetime it really doesn't matter what anyone thinks about anyone of them. My only interest is academic. Not to replow the same ground but "P5" ain't IMHO 0846 and I for one find the repaired chassis damage that matches period photo's of 0846 on my chassis unlikely to be counterfit. This (P5) look like a P4 chassis,engine,gearbox,or brakes to you?    | ||
| David Seibert (Historics)
New member Username: Historics Post Number: 30 Registered: 8-2003 |
James, As I mentioned, I haven't followed the European series entries in detail. David Piper's 330 P4 was not built by Ferrari (by his own admission) and on that basis would be ineligible. I'll assume that there's more to the story, such as something honoring David. The European entries don't directly concern me, but Piper's P4 (or P3 replica or 206S replica) would not be accepted for the North American Shell Historics. (And I must note that this weekend at Mugello one SWB has already been refused entry for having the wrong engine. Ferrari is definitely getting serious about weeding out the "wrong" cars.) As to your car, James, after 30 years or so dealing with Ferrari, not much surprises me any more. What I think is immaterial; the best answer is when the car is finished you apply for a Certificate of Authenticity from Ferrari. That will answer any questions once and for all. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2810 Registered: 10-2002 |
David Davids car has not only been raced in The Ferrari Shell Historics in Europe it is clearly and proudly referred to as racing in that seris on the Ferrari SPA web site (2002). As for 0846 do you seriously think Ferrari SPA would cast uprights for me labled as "P4 Suspension" on a factory invoice if they thought my car was a replica? | ||
| Joel Belser (Driver)
New member Username: Driver Post Number: 45 Registered: 9-2002 |
Unless a race car is hermetically sealed right out of the factory, it will never be "original". Race car parts are constantly being replaced, whether owned by the factory or a privateer. The question should be: at what point does a replacement part become an "upgrade" that is not specific to the competitive life of the car? | ||
| Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Moderator Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 2714 Registered: 8-2002 |
I just did a quick web search and found Piper's 0900 on the entry list at Misano Adriatico, Italy on October 18, 2002. This was an actual European Shell Historics event, no? It seems there were others, but I don't personally keep the entry lists on file. Regardless, It sounds like things might be done a little differently in the European series than here in NA. Thanks for your response. | ||
| David Seibert (Historics)
New member Username: Historics Post Number: 28 Registered: 8-2003 |
Wayne, The answer to two of your questions is the same: If a car which does not have a clear and continuous history is proposed for the series, at this point I'll request that it obtain a Certificate of Authenticity from Ferrari. I believe that David Piper has always admitted that he built his "330 P4" chassis 0900, one of two cars, incidentally, which carries this chassis number. (The other 0900 was proposed for the North American Shell Historics, but was refused pending documentation proving that it had been built by Ferrari.) By the rules this would make Piper's 0900 clearly ineligible. I haven't followed the entries for the European Shell Historics carefully, so am not aware that Piper's 0900 has ever been accepted. (There are several other events which could be confused with the Shell Historics.) I do note that Piper's car is not on the entry list for the Mugello finals this weekend. | ||
| Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Moderator Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 2710 Registered: 8-2002 |
David, a few questions, if you don't mind... 1. Can you please explain the decision making process when it comes to allowing/disallowing a particular car? 2. What was the reasoning behind allowing David Piper's "P4 Recreation," 0900 to participate in the Challenge? 3. What factors would you take into consideration if faced with a request for participation of James Glickenhaus' resurrection on what could be chassis 0846? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2800 Registered: 10-2002 |
The interesting thing to me is that in the past several Ferrari race cars were made this way. I remember NART turning a street Daytona and a 365BB,(and converting a P3 into a can am car) into race cars in Greenwich with parts from the local autoparts store. If one of them showed up I bet they'd be allowed to compete. | ||
| David Seibert (Historics)
New member Username: Historics Post Number: 27 Registered: 8-2003 |
Let me try to answer several questions at once. Bryan, I had heard vague stories of someone doing repro four-cylinder blocks (and transaxle cases) several years ago, although I�ve never heard any confirmation. Having owned a couple of the �big� four-cylinder engines at one time (0570 and 0602), both showed clear evidence of rods trying (successfully) to make their escape. There do seem to be very few Monzas right now which aren�t fitted with four cylinder engines, which seems somewhat surprising. (And say �Hi� to your dad for me.) Rob, I don�t believe you�ll find �hundreds� of rebodied vintage Ferraris in serious concours, which was my reference. My definition of a serious concours is one which uses IAC/PFA judging standards, which do not permit judging of unauthorized (by the factory) rebodies. I think just this issue has come up before in reference to the �Breadvan,� which, while it has a fascinating history, is still an unauthorized rebody and modification of a 250 SWB/Comp. (An accurate repair or re-creation of the original body is not a rebody by these standards.) William, you�re asking me to look into the future, and I�m notoriously bad at doing that. First, I don�t think that standards for the factory�s series will ever change much. It�s possible that cars such as 333 SPs may be permitted some day, but that is not presently on the horizon. Allowing cars such as yours, not originally built as race cars and which were never raced in a major series, would be a major change in the standards and philosophy of the Shell Historic Challenge. Frankly the factory is going the opposite direction, with the planned implementation of the Certificate of Authenticity program. Cars such as the ProDrive 550s are a bit tougher. On one hand they�re similar to the privateer-built Comp Daytonas, but I�ve been through one of the ProDrive 550s in great detail, and there�s little Ferrari left in the car. My own guess? If, at some future point cars of this era were admitted to Ferrari�s series, the factory 575 GTC and 360 GT would be eligible. The ProDrive and Raffanelli 550s would probably not. As I said, this is all guesswork, and applies only to the Shell Historic Challenge, as the factory�s series. HSR has entirely different standards, and while I�m not familiar with them, I�m certain they�d be delighted to have a Ferrari such as yours. And as I stated in my original response, I�m certain you built this car to enjoy on the track...and I�m sure you will. It�s just not the right car for the top concours or the Shell Historics. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3354 Registered: 2-2001 |
Nibbles, yes thats me & this is the car, took me 1.5 years but its done & she is mean | ||
| Nibblesworth (Nebulaclass)
Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 734 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hey William - there was a poster on here a year ago or so that was turning a salvaged TR into a race car. Was that you, and is that the car? I don't remember much of it, but I'm pretty sure it was silver and a CF body was going on it. If that's you, you did a fantastic job! Beautiful car... | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 6624 Registered: 12-2000 |
Well, so for the Cavallino Classic they're very strict about there will be no reproductions or replicas allowed into any events. How will they classify William's beautiful car? I see it as no different than the hundreds of vintage Ferraris rebodied and very much accepted at Ferrari concours events. I don't think William is aiming to race it as a period historic racer, but I do think he would like to track and show it at Cavallino Classic and FCA type events. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3352 Registered: 2-2001 |
Thanks David, I am planning on racing in HSR series. I was thinking of mine in comparison to the various different types of 550 race cars today such as the Prodive, the Raffanielli car and Ive seen photos of still more cars built by privateers. Would a Prodrive car be eligable for a serious concours someday or the Shell Historic Challenge, Supposing they add a class for 1990s & later race cars? Thanks | ||
| Bryan Phillips (Bryanp)
Junior Member Username: Bryanp Post Number: 198 Registered: 8-2002 |
on the historic issue - I think the guys who track vintage 250s who can afford to have an additional 250 motor dropped in for racing (to preserve the original matching # stamped motor) have it easy because of the number of 250 motors originally made. No such pool exists for the 4 cylinder motors - and certain motor tipos had a bad habit of sticking a con rod through the crankcase. Maybe Mr. Siebert can confirm this, but I remember a story from the 1980s about a japanese collector who paid buckets of money to have casts made for a 750 Monza motor. The fear at the time was that 'lost' 750s would begin to magically appear with correct motors. Does anyone remember hearing this?? | ||
| David Seibert (Historics)
New member Username: Historics Post Number: 26 Registered: 8-2003 |
William, I'm not entirely sure what you're asking, particularly in the context of the original question. This is clearly not a historic car (for the Shell series), so its lack of eligibility (either here or in Europe) is immaterial. I think what is/isn't a Ferrari is typically defined by the chassis, so you've certainly got a Ferrari. It's not eligible for any serious concours with the non-original body and such, and to my knowledge isn't eligible for any current racing series (ALMS, GrandAm, FIA GT, etc.). I believe you built this to be a really great track car, one you can enjoy, and I'd say you've undoubtedly succeeded. Beyond that, I don't know how else to answer. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3351 Registered: 2-2001 |
Well to let the cat out of the bag, I'd like to hear back from you Dave regarding this car. It has a Ferrari VIN# on the chassis, stock Ferrari engine & trans, suspension, and F50 brakes. Of course it has a Koenig fiberglass & CF body as well as a serious full cage and a fuel cell. I believe all the important things that make it a Ferrari are present. I built it because I wanted something safer for the track than my 512TR road car and to race of course. What would your opinion be Dave ( and other restorers, judges, etc) ? Thanks  | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3350 Registered: 2-2001 |
Dave, can you please send me an e-,ail, I'd like to discuss this with you a bit more. thanks [email protected] | ||
| David Seibert (Historics)
New member Username: Historics Post Number: 25 Registered: 8-2003 |
I know of several 250 TRs and GTOs, raced in the Shell Historic Challenge, which use period 250 engines built to appropriate specifications -- in each case the owner also has the correct original engine which he wishes to preserve. This practice is acceptable for the Shell Ferrari/Maserati Historic Challenge both in North American and in Europe. A "hot rod" or non-original spec engine would not be acceptable, even if built on the original block. | ||
| Sunny Garofalo (Jaguarxj6)
Intermediate Member Username: Jaguarxj6 Post Number: 1010 Registered: 2-2003 |
Perfectly real. I think its a question authenticity vs originality. Having the original engine would be more valuable to some people, notably collectors and most ideal for show cars and retain that paunche. If it was a real driver, there's no hope of always maintaining the original engine. Its no less of a Ferrari for being on another engine, especially an authentic engine such as that, but its not original. Makes for a colorful history, though! rep�li�ca n. 1. A copy or reproduction of a work of art, especially one made by the original artist. re�pro�duc�tion n. 1. The act of reproducing or the condition or process of being reproduced. forgery n. 1: a copy that is presented as the original | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 971 Registered: 2-2002 |
Great question. I've hear that replica engines are used for vintage racing so that the originals aren't put at risk. I'm looking forward to hearing what the experts have to say. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3349 Registered: 2-2001 |
Heres a question for debate. I'd like to hear from restorers and owners of classic iron 1970s & earlier as well as concours judges. I've heard that owners of 57 TRs & 1970 512Ms & other Mega$$$ classics buy new spare engines made by the original mechanics who worked for Ferrari back in the 50s or their sons. So if you buy a perfect replica engine & Transmission for your Testa Rossa. but the chassis & VIN# are straight out of Maranello then how real is that TR when you have the replica engine in it ? |