| Author |
Message |
Modified348ts (Modman)
Junior Member
Username: Modman
Post Number: 173
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, May 07, 2002 - 12:26 am: | |
Ric, well said.. I changed my wheels and tires and it made a HUGE difference and it handles awesome without the power steering and I could feel the road better too. From experience, if you don't use the power of the car properly on the turns you will have problems. Throttle and braking response is important on turns, the 355 has more power so used incorrectly you will experience it differently.... |
Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
New member
Username: Mitch_alsup
Post Number: 34
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 4:07 pm: | |
Tires : Pressures : Alignment
Don't compare handling without considering modern tires. Testing an F308 with 1980's tires against an F360 with 2002 tires is futile. But comparing an F308 with 2002 tires is completely reasonable.
I can easily change the loose/tight relationship with my F355 with front tire pressures. As I add more pressure to the front, it grips less, and the car becomes loose. Conversely as I subtract pressure from the front, it becomes tighter. With My car and my current alignemnts 35F with 32R give a nice delicate balance.
I am experimenting with suspension alignements, and will report back when complete. The only thing I current KNOW about the alignment is that you should NOT run loo little rear toe. High speed braking becomes (overly) interesting when both rears and fronts toe out under hard braking from over 100. Correcting the darting direction with both tires sets toed out makes the car want to pirorete. Other than toe, the limits of the car are not vary sensitive to the last 1/4 degree wrt the spec. more later.
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Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Junior Member
Username: Ricrain
Post Number: 95
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 12:26 pm: | |
I feel I should correct my original posting, as it was misleading.
My 348 has had all of the rear end squirm tweaked out of it. When I first drove the car on the track (when it was owned by the prior owner), I scared myself repeatedly. The back end tended to step out at random times and turn-in braking was virtually impossible. Trail throttle oversteer was very bad (too much).
After lowering the car 1 inch and setting the rear camber to the max allowable on the street suspension, I'm happy to report that all of that grief has gone away.
I'd be willing to bet that at least some of the 355's "gains" comes from similar changes. I've driven my 348 and a 355 on identical tires at the same track on the same day back-to-back, and, at least in my case, the 355 did handle better but not tremendously better. The most improvement came from the power difference, IMHO.
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Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Junior Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 147
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 8:33 am: | |
Ok, here is another opinion on the subject. I have driven the 348 (both street and Challenge), owned both a street 355 and a 355 Challenge, and logged some serious sessions recently in a 360 street car.
I have also talked with a Skip Barber Instructor who races in the Barber Dodge Pro Series and coaches some of the Ferrari of Washington Challenge drivers.
He has driven all three cars mentioned and felt that each car had higher handling limits than the previous model but that with each new model the gap between on the limit and over the limit had shrunk. In the case of the 360 he felt that the gap between "on" and "over" was too narrow for a street car. He did say for someone who wants a neutral or slightly loose car, the 360 is best.He holds the unofficial lap record in a 355 (street) at Summit Point at about 1:22 and he has done a 1:20.2 in the 360 so it's about two seconds faster on a 2.3 mile track (some of this can be attributed to the low end torque).
I drove the 360 recently at a track event as an instructor and the student asked me to really wring the car out. I am not a professional, but I do some SCCA racing and have done literally thousands of laps at Summit Point. I never really got near the limit (maybe 8 or 9/10ths) but I did notive that the turn in on the 360 wasn't as direct or crisp as the 355.I also noticed the 360 had much better bottom end and the torque curve seemed really flat all the way through the rev range.
Some of you also know Matt Karson (hey Matt you back yet??) he has owned the 348 C and the 355 C and has driven the 360's as an instructor. Matt thinks that the 360 and 355's are a bit twitchy at the limit without a wing (not so for the 348) and I recently had one of the Challenge racers tell me the same thing about his 360 C (he converted over last year from a 355 C).
Bottom line is that I think Ferrari is always going to make sure the incoming model exceeds the outgoing one in all areas. But the gap between the two is starting to narrow a bit.
Regards,
Jon P. Kofod
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Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Junior Member
Username: Kennedy
Post Number: 80
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 06, 2002 - 4:07 am: | |
> There's a huge difference between the 360 and 355.
> The Modena has MASSIVE MASSIVE grip and is rock steady
> where the 355 is squirming and the rear end is snaking all over the place.
We should be careful with such comparisons. For example, I changed tires on my 360 and experienced surprising "squirming and the rear end snaking all over the place." I upped the tire pressure in response, and that all went away. Just 3 PSI can make a significant difference. Just imagine the difference that quality of tires can make... fresh Hoosiers vs. a year-old dried out set of Pirreli's.
> Also the 360 appears to be UNABLE to understeer and
> to a non-professional driver it appears to do so only at suicidal turn in speeds.
I will agree that the 360 is very well balanced! But give me access to your tires for a few minutes, and I'll have your 360 pushin' horribly. But set up reasonably well, and driving reasonably properly, the 360 is hard to get pushing... both ends tend to start to go about the same time... which can certainly make it a bit more of a handful at the limit... as Ric's trusted friend noted. |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 404
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 7:17 pm: | |
Guys:
I've driven the 348, 355 and 360 and I think that the difference between the 348 and 355 is about double the difference between the 355 and 360. The 355 is much faster than the 348 (It only has 75 - 80HP more). The 348 can be souped up to perform nearly as well, but on a street model the difference is large. the 348 has handling problems, that were fixed with the 355. At high speed (over 120) you better have everything right on the 348, or you will have trouble.
With the 360, they are more stable, and a little faster than a 355. I think that the stablity is due to the revised suspension, and the increased ground effects. (I solved the HP problem with a little engine work, and love to catch 360s and watch their faces when I drive by them in a straight line. When stopped I alway tell them that my 355 is stock never touched.)
If you can get a 355 over a 3348, a much better deal, not only because of the above, but things like the ECUs on the 348 breaking, generally the 355 is much more reliable that the 348. On an absolute scale the 348 is a great car. Only, when compared to the 355, does it show poorly.
I had two 348s and loved them, drove the 355, and bought it. |
Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Junior Member
Username: Manu
Post Number: 209
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 6:12 pm: | |
I concur with Ric.
There's a huge difference between the 360 and 355. The Modena has MASSIVE MASSIVE grip and is rock steady where the 355 is squirming and the rear end is snaking all over the place.
Also the 360 appears to be UNABLE to understeer and to a non-professional driver it appears to do so only at suicidal turn in speeds.
I personally didn't feel much difference in outright accleration and I prefer the sound and looks of the 355 but dynamically the newer car thrashes the old one. |
Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Junior Member
Username: Hardtop
Post Number: 128
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 6:10 pm: | |
Dave,
In an absolute sense, handling does improve with each model, at least on paper. Sometimes though, a lesser car can feel better on the road. All of the models you mentioned have handling more than good enough to terrorize public roads. I have not driven a 360 yet and it's been years since I drove a 355 which I remember as being leaps and bounds better than than the QV I had at the time. I had a 94 348 TB which could really perform but it was a lot to handle. Sometimes it would push, sometimes it would get loose. With lots of track time, I got better at it. On the road, it really only felt good to me when really pushed, for normal spirited driving, I prefer the older cars. I still have an 85 308 GTB QV which though the steering and suspension do feel dated as you would expect I think is just a nice good handling car that is still fun. The earlier 328's feel about the same to me. Later 328's (88.5-89) had some suspension and steering changes that makes them feel a little more responsive and modern with less body roll. I think it's an improvement but they still retain the overall manners of QV's and early 328's. Early 308's are more work to drive, but I think they are still a blast. Personally, I find the fixed roof cars to be a lot nicer driving as well as better handling, especailly 308/328's which aren't all that stiff to begin with. I did notice 348's have a much stiffer chasis. Different people prefer different models. If you can, try a bunch and see which ones feel better. Also, I have driven a bunch of 308's and 328's, each car feels a little different.
Dave |
Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Junior Member
Username: Ricrain
Post Number: 92
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 5:54 pm: | |
I can speak as to the 348 vs. 355 issue. I've spent quite a bit of time on the track in my 348. I've also had a number of opportunities to drive various 355s on the track.
The brakes are identical. Literally, the parts are virtually interchangeable. The amount of stopping force is therefore, more dependent on tires and pads than anything else.
The 355 is more powerful at the top end, but not that much more at the low end.
The 355 handles about 10-15% better than a similarly equipped 348, mostly due to the improved suspension geometries and somewhat due to the active suspension.
I've also driven a 360 close to a dozen times on the track (on Hoosier's).
The 360's brakes are similar. Maybe a little bit better than the 355/348.
The 360's power is dramatically different. Much more low end and way faster throttle response. The intake noise is pure sex. At identical corner exit speeds, the 360 will pull right past a 355.
The 360's handling seems to be improved mostly due to the improvement in the variable power steering. The overall grip seems to be a little better, but I think that's mostly due to the larger tires. The 360 is a pushing (understeering) pig when the ASR is turned on. Overall, it's easier to "dance on the limit" in a 360 than in my 348.
FWIW, an experienced instructor that I trust tells me that a properly set up 348 is much more forgiving than either a 355 or 360.
IMHO
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Tenney (Tenney)
Junior Member
Username: Tenney
Post Number: 112
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 5:26 pm: | |
Haven't tried a 348. And I'm no expert.
That said, and I'm sure it will come as a grand surprise to many, I detected a very noticable leap in pretty much every performance parameter when going from a 328 to 355. I prefer the feel of the 328's steering but, balance-wise, the car tends to push a bit more by my recollection.
Re: 355 v. 360: The Modena has an overall power advantage and feels as though it has much more bottom end, in particular. The 360's steering is more direct, turn-in more precise, and the car feels lighter and more nimble. Brakes seem to work about equally well on both.
The 355 is certainly a capable car, but if your selection is to be based purely on performance, the disparity is great enough to make the 360 the clear choice, IMO. |
Jack (Gilles27)
Junior Member
Username: Gilles27
Post Number: 229
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 5:25 pm: | |
Uh oh. I sense a backlash from the 348 guys about to brew... |
Greg Owens (Owens84qv)
Member
Username: Owens84qv
Post Number: 353
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 5:14 pm: | |
Ernesto...again, my opinion. That's what makes this site so great... |
Ernesto (T88power)
Member
Username: T88power
Post Number: 344
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 4:13 pm: | |
Are you saying that you felt a bigger performance increase from 348 to 355 than from 355 to 360?? Not from what I've seen ...
Ernesto |
Greg Owens (Owens84qv)
Member
Username: Owens84qv
Post Number: 351
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 10:58 am: | |
I've ridden in each and my scale would be as follows:
84-84 308QV = 1.0
late-80's 328 = 1.2
348 = 1.8
355 = 2.8
360 = 3.0
These are just my thoughts after comparing each model. |
Ron Thomas (Ronsupercar)
New member
Username: Ronsupercar
Post Number: 8
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 8:59 am: | |
As far as I know the handeling of each of these vehicles improve through time due to techonologies borrowed in F-1. Each of those cars had larger tire sizes then the last. Aero dynamic changes and suspension upgrades always make a difference..
From my understanding, everyone that I've spoken to tells me the differences are usually very noticable. |
Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Junior Member
Username: Davewapinski
Post Number: 179
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Friday, May 03, 2002 - 7:46 am: | |
As one goes up the Ferrari line, 308/328 to 348 to 355 to 360, does the handling and performance increase drastically or are the differences subtle? |
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