| Author | Message | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 1239 Registered: 10-2001 |
I love period reviews quite a bit. I have a ton for my Europa which rage from gushy glowing to an overpriced headache (they cost more than a Vette when new). The A-D rating system is interesting; lots of the 'C' Ferraris got that grade I think because their values have not gone up, like the 308's. That will change in time. My Europa TC got a 'B' which I'm impressed with but in spite of it's rarity and having aged better than anyone could have expected, it's not very collectable as far as prices go. A top condition, upgraded and restored TC (which are almost NEVER for sale; you have to do it yoursef) will only fetch $20k. I'm a broken record that the 308's will eventually be a very, very valuable Ferrari. In spite of the relative large production of them, most will be gone in a few years, and that classic body IS Ferrari. People will rediscover them, and restoration costs will finally make financial sense. | ||
| Don Vollum (Donv)
Junior Member Username: Donv Post Number: 187 Registered: 1-2002 |
I believe all of the V12 2+2 cars have been priced at the top of the model line, from the 250GTE to the 456 to the 612. I imagine the Mondial was priced higher than the comparable 308/328, as well. I don't know how the 308GT4 fit into the pricing picture. | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
Junior Member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 181 Registered: 3-2002 |
Also keep in mind the 250 2+2 GTE was the popular model of the time. They made almost three times more GTEs than PF Coupes because they sold so well originally. I think the original price for those was commensurate with the other 250 models. | ||
| Bryan Phillips (Bryanp)
Junior Member Username: Bryanp Post Number: 202 Registered: 8-2002 |
If, with 20/20 hindsight, you want to fault the late Dean Batchelor for missing certain Ferrari model values, then you'll definitely get a laugh at some of Ferrari's original pricing. If memory serves, Ferrari charged the same or more in 1959 for a 250 GT PF Coupe than it did for a 250 PF Cabriolet. The market now values the Cabriolet at triple the Coupe . . . | ||
| Don Vollum (Donv)
Junior Member Username: Donv Post Number: 186 Registered: 1-2002 |
>>206 & 246 gt/gts 2.5 stars 400 gt/automatic 3 stars 308 carb 0 stars 308 qv 1 star 365 & 512bb/i 2 stars << You must have a different edition than mine. Mine (3rd edition) lists them as follows: 206/246: 2 stars 400GT and Auto: 2 stars 308/328 series: 2 stars 365BB: 3 stars 512BB: 3 stars The "Investment Rating" section states that one star is "Any Ferrari V-12 that has had an engine swap and the original engine isn't available with the car, a car that has been in a bad accident, or a two-star car category car that needs a total restoration. I also put some of the newer cars (308, etc.) into this class-- not because they're not good but because they are new and plentiful." Remember that this book was written and revised in the 80s, so of course it's out of date. | ||
| Andrew S. (Andrew911)
Junior Member Username: Andrew911 Post Number: 72 Registered: 9-2003 |
Frank- I think Ken's post was saying that most of our cars as a group may be "c"s, not most of your cars in particular. My porsche isn't on the list (1993 911 Cab), but I think it would be a C since the 1990-1991 C2 cabs are C's. That's about what I'd expect though comparing it to cars like a Ferrari  It's too much of a "common" car to get any higher (although in 1993 and 1994 not many 911 cabs were produced due to the poor economy). There are many ferrari's in the "c" rating as well...most likely higher volume or more common cars, and/or cars that weren't particularly noteworthy to get to a "b" rating | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 3120 Registered: 9-2001 |
Peter, I was referring to the Sports Car Market A-B-C-D investment guide as posted by Ken below. | ||
| peter brinzey (Ferraripete)
Junior Member Username: Ferraripete Post Number: 133 Registered: 11-2002 |
i am looking at the book as i write this. 206 & 246 gt/gts 2.5 stars 400 gt/automatic 3 stars 308 carb 0 stars 308 qv 1 star 365 & 512bb/i 2 stars ••••, the sum total of both of my ferraris is only 3 stars! note to self...must get more star power!!!! ken is correct about this book. independent of the strange rating system, the photos are lousy and there is no real meat in the text. how is it even considered a buyers guide? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 3119 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ken, how can that be as I only have one car at the present that is even listed in that report, a 1982 BB512i and it is listed as a "B". Neither my 2000 BMW M5 nor my wife's 2000 Honda Odyssey is even listed at all. What "most" of my cars are you referring to ? | ||
| Andrew S. (Andrew911)
Junior Member Username: Andrew911 Post Number: 70 Registered: 9-2003 |
Ken- to answer your gas burning cars question, just last night I was reading the editorial section of a 1966 road & track, that said cars wouldn't be gas burning by 1990 or 2000 at the latest.. Guess we're running on borrowed time now You definitely bring up some good points on F1 & 360 values. I'm such a traditionalist, I wouldn't buy a Ferrari that wasn't a manual transmission car- then again, maybe I'm not a traditionalist but a forward thinker of future values based on what your saying Anyway, I'm with wm hart- reading the period reviews of the older cars really gives a flavor of what they were like in their time of production. I think Batchelor's book gives a good feeling of that for each model, and to tell you the truth I never paid much attention to the star reatings as I don't buy cars as an investment per se. The book is really a recommended buy for those who want brief summaries of the marque, and the book isn't that expensive either...but no color pictures except the cover because it isn't one of those expensive coffee table books from Marinello... | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 1235 Registered: 10-2001 |
Okay; I should cut Batchelor some slack on the investment part. Hindsight is 20-20 on what cars currently are more sought after. I still think he reads like he was paid by Ferrari but I also find the book a really fun read. Just don't go quoting it as gospel, which no one here seems to do anyway. I'll put my personal butt on the line and say I think the 360 will ulitimately fare quite well. As there are a ton of them out the prices will drop, but then as time goes by, they will rise again. The F1 may turn out to be a liability in 20-30 years if it has a tendency to fall apart which may indeed be the case. The manual (normal) shift cars may become like I think carb 308's will become: VERY sought after. I expect the 360 to age very well style wise as well. Ultimately, it and the 308 may be very, very valuable in 20 years; well 40 for the 360 perhaps. Will we still have gas burning cars by then? | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1697 Registered: 12-2001 |
Dean Batchelor was the owner of several important ferraris, including a Mexico. He was an editor of R&T and was an authority on alot of things, automobilewise, not just ferrari. I think his buyer's guide is an important reference and an essential read for the neophyte, regardless of his investment recommendations. First, alot of newbies (and not so newbies) don't know the difference between alot of the older models, and have little to give them an easy way to follow the evolution of the production cars, from the earliest 250s, on forward. Although Prunet's book, The Road Cars and Fitzgerald & Merritt's tome are regarded as classics, along with several others, on an overall review of the marque, they are not as succinct on a model by model, chronological ordering of the cars. For this reason alone, the Batchelor book is more than worth its price, even today. Second, i don't think Batchelor is that far off in some of his remarks about the cars and their characteristics, leaving aside investment value. Finally, its like reading period reviews (which are fun). The ferrari bubble was growing at the time he wrote, when BB's were starting to fetch 250 grand, but you could still find older cars at what may seem today to be bargain prices. I have only been in this game since the mid-nineties, and remember when Boano coupes were worth not much more than pf coupes. Likewise, the Lusso was not fetching big numbers. Boxers and Daytonas really haven't changed that much, but try to find a pf cabrio series one today on the cheap. Granted, the Dino 246 has come along way in the last ten years in the market, but not all ferraris are worth more than what they cost new. And, while a Cal spyder may still be near the top of the heap in the GT category 25 years from now, where do you think 360 spiders will find their niche in history? | ||
| Yoshi Ace (Tiger_ace)
Junior Member Username: Tiger_ace Post Number: 242 Registered: 5-2003 |
I think this is a good reference book for Ferrari. They are out of the prints, but available in Amazon, where I bought 2 editions. I wish their photo were in color! These stars are based on investment potential, not performance. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 1234 Registered: 10-2001 |
Check out your cars here, and don't throw stones that most of your cars are a "C". http://www.sportscarmarket.com/resources/price_guides/2003priceguide_nongold.pdf | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Advanced Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 3113 Registered: 9-2001 |
The 5 star investment value guide in the recent issue of Cavallino magazine rates the cars a little different. As I recall it has the Boxer, Dino and Lusso at 4 stars, the Tdf at 5 stars and the TR at 2 stars. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 6663 Registered: 12-2000 |
I have a couple editions of the book. I enjoyed it, because it was my first Ferrari book that went through the major models from the start with specifications and a little write up. I haven't seen an updated edition since the one with the 456 I think. | ||
| Bill Rose (Superbimmer)
Junior Member Username: Superbimmer Post Number: 64 Registered: 1-2003 |
You are correct, Andrew ... his rating system was for investment value (at time of press) I, too, found his Ferrari book very useful ... a quick overview of the marque. Dean passed away after the release of the 3rd version of his book (1990). The 4th was done by someone else, in his honor (1996) | ||
| Andrew S. (Andrew911)
Junior Member Username: Andrew911 Post Number: 68 Registered: 9-2003 |
Ken- I have that edition of the book as well. Its possible he was only predicting the investment/desirability potential of the more recent cars at the time of printing (456) & in the few years that have since past, he might have changed the star ratings accordingly (I think this guy passed away a couple of years ago). Actually, I have a Porsche buyer's guide he wrote as well, and it was very helpful when I was first looking to get a porsche. The Ferrari guide by Batchelor if nothing else gives a quick glimpse of each model from the beginning & helped educate me when I first started getting into Ferrari's. I frequently find errors in various car books, but Dean's are usually the more accurate books, relatively speaking. I have a whole bunch of books from the same "buyer's guide" series (BMW buyers guide, Mercedes buyers guide, Alfa Romeo buyers guide, etc), but I don't remember how many of these books were authored by him. I only remember the Porsche and Ferrari books being by him. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Intermediate Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 1231 Registered: 10-2001 |
I have his book which goes through the F50. It's the biggest piece of crap literature I own. This guy reads like a commercial for Ferrari but doesn't even get his facts straight. If he's supposed to be a foremost Ferrari guy, then I'm shocked. Even his opinions on relative values of many models are way, way off base in just the few years following the publication. For example, he thinks the 456 is a great investment, while the 246 is not very collectable. WHAT???? | ||
| martin j weiner,M.D. (Mw575)
Intermediate Member Username: Mw575 Post Number: 1260 Registered: 5-2001 |
It's like "what's your favorite color?" | ||
| Don Vollum (Donv)
Junior Member Username: Donv Post Number: 183 Registered: 1-2002 |
I have a copy of that book. I can't remember if the stars represented investment potential or intrinsic value. In any event, I remember that no production Ferraris received 1 star, so that narrows things a bit. Like anyone else, he didn't have a crystal ball. | ||
| Edward (Edward_96gts)
Junior Member Username: Edward_96gts Post Number: 111 Registered: 8-2002 |
He wrote a book in1981 that rated Ferrai's on 5 star rating system. For example here are some of his ratings: Tour de France...4 stars Calif Spyder.....5 stars 250 GT Berlinetta.4 stars Lusso............3 stars 275 GTB 2cam.....4stars 275 GTB 4 cam....5 stars Daytona..........4 stars Boxer............3 stars Teastarosa 1985-.3 stars Dino.............2 stars 3xx..............2 stars Dean was an old Hot rodder turned Ferrari expert Are these ratings still relavent or outdated? Opinions please. Thanks, Ed |