| Author | Message | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Intermediate Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 1172 Registered: 6-2002 |
Pure carbon/carbon clutches LIKE abuse (infact their coefficent of friction goes UP with temprature, but the opposite is typical of organic street clutches.) Carbon clutches are also a toggle switch, with basically no intermediate position between 'on' and 'off' This is the reason F1 cars always light up the tyres and dump the clutch to get out of the pits. There's really no other way to do it. Relivant because I've seen some carbon clutches refitted to F40s and the like. Must be a hoot to drive! Best! Ben. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2940 Registered: 10-2002 |
Randle The answer is no. A friend of mine David Piper lost his leg as a result of an accident in a P 917 while filming the Movie LeMans. His leg was broken and the French Doctor's didn't clean out the brake fluid and he got an infection that couldn't be cured. Anyway he now has an artificial right foot which is ok for throttle but not sensitive enough for braking. Except to get started he doesn't use the clutch at all. The sight of him driving his P4 at the Goodwood Festival of speed without using a clutch is wonderful. I can shift without a clutch but not as well as him. The clutch cable in my 308 once broke on the westside highway. I was able to get it to WWOC 40 miles away. (At red lights I shut down and started in gear) | ||
| mike550 (Mikeg)
Junior Member Username: Mikeg Post Number: 184 Registered: 8-2003 |
I have my 550 in SF and live on a hill and have a tricky garage which requires some excessive clutching to get in. We will see how long the clutch lasts. | ||
| Randle Roberts (Racerboy9)
New member Username: Racerboy9 Post Number: 30 Registered: 2-2003 |
If you can "match revs" relatively well do you even need to use the clutch? | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Intermediate Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 1495 Registered: 6-2002 |
Here it comes!!! In San Fran, on those hills, you would burn any clutch out in 5000 miles. | ||
| rob guess (Beast)
Member Username: Beast Post Number: 468 Registered: 5-2003 |
I sense an Ellen Lambo Rebutal comming up | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Advanced Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 3415 Registered: 2-2001 |
LOL, be thankful you dont drive a Countach. In San Francisco I burned the clutch out in under 5,000 miles | ||
| Steve Magnusson (91tr)
Intermediate Member Username: 91tr Post Number: 2174 Registered: 1-2001 |
Coach I -- Are you saying that in each case that the clutch "failure" was directly due to disc(s) friction material wear out and no other issue? IMO, the slave cylinder seals don't do well with little use -- or maybe stated differently, (regardless of miles driven) needing new ones every decade or 2 shouldn't be unexpected (so a lot of low-mile F get clutch repairs not related to wear out). Were none of your clutch failures "hydraulic" related? My ex-308 clutch experience (rational street use with no track use) was: 1. The throw-out bearing seized (from dust) after a ~60K mile/~12 year interval (although if they didn't replace it at the first clutch job, it was a ~120K mile/~21 year interval). 2. I'd guesstimate that the old disk had ~1/3 material life left so it might have made a 90K mile life to wear out. 3. The rear main seal was starting to weep a little anyway. | ||
| rob guess (Beast)
Member Username: Beast Post Number: 467 Registered: 5-2003 |
Coachi; There is several different designs for clutches. with a sintered metallic friction disk being the most abuse tolerant the down fall for this clutch is that once it starts to grab it does with little slipping therefore it is not the best choice for street use. Most stock clutches are organic friction plates. The deciding factor here is how much pressure the pressure plate can create to clamp the clutch. The stronger the springs the more clamping and the less feel that a driver has. Also if you are not using a hydraulic clutch release with a high pressure plate it will require lots of leg pressure to press the pedal in stop and go traffic. If you are having problems with your f-car you might want to see if there is a clutch rebuilder in your area that might be able to reline yours with a stronger friction lining. Rob Guess "The Other Rob" | ||
| Omar (Auraraptor)
Intermediate Member Username: Auraraptor Post Number: 1130 Registered: 9-2002 |
Practice makes perfect I would guess....I am still in the practicing phase for matching...luckly I am not practicing on my fcar. | ||
| Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Member Username: Coachi Post Number: 470 Registered: 5-2002 |
Now I need someone to explain to me why my Corvette ( a 1990 ZR1 model) seems to have longer clutch life ( I Have over 18000 miles on the car and no signs of clutch trouble) than any of my Ferraris? I don't mean to imply that the corvette is a better car...never even thought that...but do they make different types of clutches? | ||
| Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Member Username: Coachi Post Number: 469 Registered: 5-2002 |
Many thanks for the explanation guys... | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 597 Registered: 3-2002 |
> would someone kindly explain "matching" revs? Push your foot down on the clutch to disengage it. Roughly speaking, what that means is that the two halves of the clutch are no longer touching... so they can turn at different speeds, or not turn at all. The engine is turning at some speed... say 3000 rpm. It is directly connected to one half of the clutch. The wheels are turning at some speed... say 700 rpm. It is connected to the other half of the clutch through the transmission gears and the final drive gear. Now, if you just let go of the clutch pedal, reengaging the two halves of the clutch, what happens? Well, if the engine side is turning faster than the wheel side, then the engine will jerk the wheels and car forward and the wheels will jerk the engine RPMs down. Not good for either. But worse, the clutch will take the brunt of the punishment. Imagine a gorilla is holding the rear of your Ferrari off the ground such that its free-wheeling. You accelerate up to 45mph. Now, while you hold that speed, the gorilla drops the rear of your car... your car lurches forward and the engine gets dragged down hard... but most of the torture happens where the tires meet the pavement... major rubber left on ground... probably plenty of smoke too. But most people don't drop their clutch, you say! Okay, have that gorilla slowly lower the rear of the car to the ground... at first the tire is barely touching... the car doesn't lurch forward and the engine maintains speed... but major smoke is coming off the tires. The gorilla gently lowers a bit more... now the car starts to slowly move forward, and the engine starts to drag a bit, but the smoke coming off the tires is just billowing... the gorilla continues to ease the car down and the car begins to accelerate more and eventually the car gets up to speed such that the tires aren't slipping so bad and eventually they hook up. Of course, you may be down to the steel belts by then. That's what the typical driver who doesn't match revs does to his clutch each time he uses it! And the above applies equally well to having the engine spinning slower than the wheel side of the clutch (which is a common fault of drivers). Matching revs means, before you release the clutch pedal to bring the two halves of the clutch together, you use the throttle to accelerate the engine RPMs so that the engine side of the clutch is turning at the same speed as the wheel side of the clutch. If you match the speeds perfectly, you can literally drop the clutch and you won't feel a thing -- no lurch either way -- and the engine rpms don't change! Of course, perfection is beyond most of us, so we do release the clutch a bit more gently... but if you are being nice to your clutch, then you are releasing it quickly with no jerking of the car. If you are either: jerking the car when you release the clutch OR releasing the clutch slowly to avoid jerking the car, THEN you are cooking your clutch rather than matching revs with the throttle. Make sense? Now there is one case where you can't match revs: when you are starting from a standing start. You can't make the engine go to 0 rpm and still get anywhere. So, that is the one case where you need to release the clutch a bit more slowly... and that is the one place where your clutch has to take some wear. But you still want to release it as quick as possible that you don't jerk the car or engine... the longer you take, the more you are like the latter gentle gorilla, who smokes all the rubber off the tires (but in your case, the clutch). Make sense? | ||
| Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
Member Username: Craigfl Post Number: 713 Registered: 1-2001 |
More than "matching revs" on a downshift, when you blip the throttle, you are allowing the clutch shaft and transmission shaft to meet(same RPM) with no added torque because little torque is available at closed throttle position. This way there is no "slip" and essentially no additional wear. On an upshift, the trick is to do the whole gearchange procedure in the same amount of time it takes the revs to drop to the exact RPM the car needs to be at when you let the clutch out. | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Member Username: Kds Post Number: 379 Registered: 5-2003 |
That's what you are doing when you blip the throttle between downshifts. | ||
| Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Member Username: Coachi Post Number: 468 Registered: 5-2002 |
would someone kindly explain "matching" revs? | ||
| Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
Member Username: Craigfl Post Number: 712 Registered: 1-2001 |
Greg, When I said "use it like an automatic transmission", I meant that people try to operate it just like the advantages of one. The theory behind the automatic is that it allows the engine to operate at a higher RPM where there is more torque available by allowing slip -- the difference between the engine RPM and the input transmission shaft RPM. In an automatic car, you may be slipping at 20-40% and because more torque is available at the higher RPM, your acceleration is better. In a manual transmission car, some people rev the engine higher at the start and let the clutch slip longer thru the acceleration process. Because of the increased RPM (Torque), the takeoff may feel better(faster) but all the extra heat and wear is taken by the clutch driven disk. At least in the automatic transmission there isn't mechanical wear and the heat is dissipated in the oil cooler as long as you don't do it too often. Again, this is just a clutch slip/wear issue. And.... Not having the clutch adjusted properly can cause increased wear problems. | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 589 Registered: 3-2002 |
I will agree that toasted clutches are driver abuse. The only tie to Ferrari is that it is easier to toast a clutch in a high-powered or heavier car. But only if you are abusing it... your abuse will do more damage when you have some power behind it. The two most common places I see people killing clutches is: 1) Holding cars on inclines with the clutch. Some do this as an art form; however, more common is in the panic to not roll back, they rev the engine big and then let out the clutch until it stops the backward movement... but then hold a bit so they can slowly release and not stall the engine. Revs too high and clutch partially engaged too long. 2) Using the clutch as a brake. Rather than releasing the gas and pressing the brake to slow (optionally disengaging the clutch if revs are getting too low), and then shifting to proper gear in prep for accelerating again... instead, they downshift and use engine braking, then downshift again, and so on. But rather than truly blipping the throttle to match revs, they gently release the clutch such that the clutch revs the engine and the car is gently braked. You can smoothly brake the car this way, but you'll eat clutches in no time!! My wager is that a lot of the F1 clutches go quickly because of driver error #1... the F1 makes it somewhat easier to do that... it will feather the clutch a long time if you tell it to... and since you're not operating the clutch, there's nothing to tell a novice driver that he's cooking his clutch. I wonder if a blue/red/green clutch light wouldn't save some F1 clutches (blue=disengaged; red=partially engaged; green=fully engaged). | ||
| Daniel B Reese MD (Dbr328gtb)
Junior Member Username: Dbr328gtb Post Number: 209 Registered: 5-2001 |
I was hoping to find out this was just a driver issue and not an equipment one. I match revs and shift up and down imperceptably, blipping the throttle as necessary. Sounds like the clutch that came with the car when I bought it should last forever! (I hope). BTW, My E46 M3 seems harder on clutches than the 328, as it is harder to shift smooth- go figure. It always astonishes me how easy the 328 is to drive. Thanks for the compliment Todd G! | ||
| 1987 Jerry (Slag_328gts)
Member Username: Slag_328gts Post Number: 291 Registered: 9-2003 |
Thanks Hubert, that sounds great. I sent you an email. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1598 Registered: 1-2002 |
jerry: november 7th i'll be at buttonwillow raceway (about 1.5 hrs from OC), it's free for spectators, and you can catch a ride with me, and i can show you my heel/toe, shifting , braking , etc techniques. email me if you like, and bring a helmet. and, i 'd also heed mr. G's advice and sign up for skippy. hubert. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2931 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jerry I would reccomend taking a Skip Barber or similar course. This is the best way to really understand how to shift, how to brake and how to go through a turn. It will make you a much better and smoother driver. You'll also enjoy driving much more. It's very hard to explain although Pete's done a good job. Take a three day course. You'll love it. | ||
| 1987 Jerry (Slag_328gts)
Member Username: Slag_328gts Post Number: 290 Registered: 9-2003 |
Erik - My clutch was so bad, it was easy to tell. In first gear, it would just whine out to 4000 rpm & barely move. | ||
| Erik (Teenferrarifan)
Member Username: Teenferrarifan Post Number: 410 Registered: 2-2003 |
How do you know when your clutch is bad? All this talk has caused me to question whether or not I even know what a bad clutch is. Erik | ||
| 1987 Jerry (Slag_328gts)
Member Username: Slag_328gts Post Number: 284 Registered: 9-2003 |
Can you guys expand a little bit on "matching the revs" and "slipping the clutch"?? I just got my first F-car and want to keep the clutch as new as possible. Thanks! | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Intermediate Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 1468 Registered: 6-2002 |
Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi), i think you need to look at yourself as to why you burn clutches out so quickly. I dont baby my cars in any way. I let em rip to redline all the time from each and every gear. In the Diablo i let it rip in 1st and love getting it sideways down the street, not to mention the added stress the nitrous must cause, when im doing this in 1-2 and 3rd gear. The clutch is as new. Bboxer pointed out his Countach was a POS as he called it. My 87 was one of the most trouble free cars ive ever owned, with also the power being substantially boosted, and had over 70,000+ on its original clutch. Learn to drive, match revs, and dont slip the clutch, then they will last forever, in any Ferrari and Lamborghini. | ||
| Dave (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 633 Registered: 4-2001 |
I'm with Jim, It's a matter of how you drive. | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 829 Registered: 3-2001 |
Can you explain more about using it like an automatic? Is this where they pretty much hold it at 1000 rpm or so while letting the clutch out and it stays at 1000 the entire time until it is all of the way out and they are moving? Thanks. | ||
| bboxer (Bboxer)
Member Username: Bboxer Post Number: 355 Registered: 8-2001 |
My 88 Countach lost its clutch with 45 miles on the odometer. Delivery truck (female) driver backed it out of the transporter with lots of smell and smoke. Warranty/insurance took care of it. Sign of things to come; biggest POS I've ever owned. | ||
| Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
Member Username: Craigfl Post Number: 711 Registered: 1-2001 |
I agree with you too Pete... Significant power never goes thru my clutch unless it's fully engaged. From a stop, I blip the throttle and catch the clutch on the way down. Once I'm moving, I try to match revs if I'm downshifting or up shifting with little delay between the gears. One thing that I see others do that greatly increases wear is lots of slip getting off the line using it like an automatic transmission torque converter. This does make for quicker starts but sure can cook a clutch in a hurry. I've owned 25+ cars so far, most with manual transmissions and never had to replace a clutch. The last car went 144K with no clutch change before I sold it. | ||
| Tazio Nuvolari (Nuvolari)
Member Username: Nuvolari Post Number: 329 Registered: 9-2002 |
Pete your commets are spot on..thanks for saving me all the typing. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Intermediate Member Username: Psk Post Number: 1080 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well 5000 miles for the Boxer ... that is bad! Interesting Pete | ||
| Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Member Username: Coachi Post Number: 466 Registered: 5-2002 |
I have several Ferraris...not driven hard or much, clutches changed at 5000 miles (Boxer); TR (8,000); Daytona (15,000), daytona no. 2 !9,000; 308 at 47,000 (bought it second hand don't know how many times the clutch was changed before. In my opinion, Ferraris clutches don't last very long...regardless of how carefully driven. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Intermediate Member Username: Psk Post Number: 1075 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hmmm ... tires chirp ... are you popping the clutch Todd? Unsettling the car like this may feel exciting but performance driving is all about keeping control of your machine and being smooth, atleast that was what I was taught ... My 200hp x 512kg club race car only ran on 185 wide tyres and never, ever did this ... as did all my other club cars. Only time I have ever had this was when I was unnecessarily rough on the car ... again you are gaining nothing IM(humble)O by popping the clutch, just let it out fast ... maintaining 100% grip is what it is all about, not as exciting maybe but faster. Anyway I'll get back to work ... nearly midnight and 7 hours to go  , bloody go-live weekends! Pete | ||
| Todd Gieger (Todd328gts)
Member Username: Todd328gts Post Number: 619 Registered: 6-2002 |
James, Let me clarify...sure the clutch still works but I love the feel of a brand new clutch that really grabs...as when you jump on the gas and shift from 1st to 2nd, 2nd to 3rd, 3rd to 4th, etc...the tires chirp...what a rush! | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Intermediate Member Username: Psk Post Number: 1074 Registered: 11-2002 |
Todd, To drive fast you do not have to punish the car. Why do people think this?. Many years ago Jack Brabham (3 time F1 champ in the 60's incase you don't know) entered a 12 hour or 24 hour touring car race in Australia. Jack would have been in his 50's by then ... if not 60's. The thing that his co drivers and mechanics found amazing was how easy he was on the car and he was atleast competitive if not quicker. To get the car to finish a race requires you to get the best out of yourself and the car ... not abuse of the car. The reason clutches wear out is because people slip them. Cars like Ferraris (and Porsches) take a bit more skill to get off the line, because of: - Taller first gears (than mundane saloon cars). - Peaky torque characteristics of the engine. A performance car has a different technique to moving off the line (not including a race start) than a normal car. You actually blip the throttle and then while the engine is on the way down let the clutch out and then catch the engine with the throttle and away you go. Try and drive a Porsche (and I assume Ferrari) like a GM or Ford saloon will result in too much clutch slipping and in a Porsches case (my parents used to work at a Porsche dealership) you may warp the flywheel due to too much heat, as well as wear the clutch out. I assume this is why Jim gets such huge mileage out of his clutch because he has a large amount of racecar experience. In the end Ferrari could put a clutch in that could handle twice the torque, etc. but it would be large and heavy ... and not exactly cutting edge design ... that sort of design is GM and Ford territory  . Pete ... my 2 cents worth | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2927 Registered: 10-2002 |
Todd 275K miles in bumper to bumper. In the snow. On the track. Up to shift point day in day out. It's the same with Lambo clutches. Rumor is they suck. Truth look at Alan. He doesn't baby them and his experience is the same as mine in his Lambo's and in his Ferrari's. | ||
| Todd Gieger (Todd328gts)
Member Username: Todd328gts Post Number: 617 Registered: 6-2002 |
Btw, great post Daniel...I always wondered this too Cheers, Todd | ||
| Todd Gieger (Todd328gts)
Member Username: Todd328gts Post Number: 616 Registered: 6-2002 |
I would agree with Daniel Resse...In my opinion the clutch is somewhat of a weak link. My point is, I understand the clutch will last a long long time if you completely pamper it ALL the time...but realistically, when driving these performance cars you are going to let it rip from time to time...if not more. So why didn't Ferrari make a bullet proof or high performance or heavy duty clutch that could withstand a bit more punishment? | ||
| Andy Falsetta (Tuttebenne)
Member Username: Tuttebenne Post Number: 330 Registered: 3-2003 |
Thankfully cars don't drive themselves yet. When they do, at least clutch wear won't be an issue. Until then, the driver has total control over clutch wear. My $0.02 | ||
| J R K (Kenyon)
Intermediate Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 1004 Registered: 10-2002 |
I hacve nearly 35,000 miles on my 348 Spider and its still on its original clutch. No problems so far... You must use the clutch correctly. | ||
| Mike Procopio (Pupz308)
Member Username: Pupz308 Post Number: 601 Registered: 10-2002 |
Allan's on a good streak kds, no provocation now . | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Intermediate Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 1463 Registered: 6-2002 |
Well, i guess Ferrari drivers can only race hondas if they want to win. | ||
| Warren Balla (West662)
Junior Member Username: West662 Post Number: 116 Registered: 8-2003 |
lol kds | ||
| Kds (Kds)
Member Username: Kds Post Number: 373 Registered: 5-2003 |
Because their owners race Honda's ? Joking.....I'm only joking......!!! | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Intermediate Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 1461 Registered: 6-2002 |
Same story with lambos. Drive em right and they last forever. | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 565 Registered: 3-2001 |
Hear hear James and Rob | ||
| rob guess (Beast)
Member Username: Beast Post Number: 450 Registered: 5-2003 |
It all boils down to the driver. I know people that smoke clutches in less than 5000 miles and some that put hundreds of thousands miles with out any problems. Of my last 4 vehicles i have put on nearly 750,000 miles in 15 years without smoking a clutch. As for the clutch on an F1 tranny the wear is more dependant on the computer than the operator. Rob Guess "The Other Rob" | ||
| Rosso (Redhead)
Member Username: Redhead Post Number: 566 Registered: 12-2001 |
If your car was an F1, I might understand, but other then that, it is few and far between that we change clutches on anything else. My .02cents | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2926 Registered: 10-2002 |
I've put 275K miles on F cars without needing to change a clutch. It's a matter of how you drive. Peroid. | ||
| Daniel B Reese MD (Dbr328gtb)
Junior Member Username: Dbr328gtb Post Number: 207 Registered: 5-2001 |
I shift smoothly and I think my 49000 mile 328 had its clutch replaced only once at 20K. I've put 15000 miles on it and it seems fine. Other cars rarely need clutch replacement- why are Ferraris different? |