| Author | Message | ||
| stephen winter (355f)
New member Username: 355f Post Number: 49 Registered: 6-2003 |
and lets face it the manual gearbox is not exactly one of the better units about so I think any debate over which might be better for an individual would have more credence if the manual box was one of the best examples of that type- sadly it is not. Ive owned manual and F1, for me the F1 encourages the use of the box more than a manual car. As for clutch life 26K and still going ok The other thing is that when slowing for a junction the box will drop sequentially down to 1st so its alot of wear on the clutch, so when about to slow knock it into N and that seems to solve the problem. Prevuious car 45K on F1 no new clutch! | ||
| P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member Username: Ferrari_fanatic Post Number: 632 Registered: 4-2003 |
I think that was the point of all the premature F-1 cluch wear: Most people drive it like an automatic. They should drive it exactly like a manual. All of the proponents of the F-1 tranny in this thread demonstrate adept driving skills (as far as I can ascertain from the writing). However, a portion of F-1 drivers are inept in a manual and now also in the F-1. I beleive that the people that do not know how the system works, are the one's experiencing premature wear and clutch failure. every F-1 driver probably should not be lumped into one catagory. This is still "new" technology (for street cars anyway) and as for the masses, it requires a learning curve to use properly. | ||
| ryan (Ferrari_kid)
Junior Member Username: Ferrari_kid Post Number: 53 Registered: 7-2003 |
i'd have to agree with both having the F1 and stick. it's obvious that it comes down to personal preference. i do have to say that having the F1 would be more for track use. it allows the driver to do things they've never done before. it's basically the argument going on in F1 about the traction control. it allows the driver to push farther than he has before (which could explain why MS makes so many mistakes) because he knows there is a safety net in a sense. saying that the driver is detached from the car because they have F1 seems to be based on the driver more than the transmission. you can use the F1 transmission but, as Brian shows, you can still be "attached" to the car just in a different sense. in learning to race i'd have to say start with a stick. it's all about the basics. it's the same as learning to play a sport. you don't want to skip to advanced fielding techniques like the back hand dig and jump throw to first (like derek jeter) but rather get infront of the ball and save the fancy stuff for when you've mastered the basics. | ||
| Michael Klein (Malibumk)
Junior Member Username: Malibumk Post Number: 106 Registered: 5-2002 |
My put is; 1)They both have their strengts and weaknesses....neither is perfect. 2)The F1 "is" a manual. If you "feel" the clutch engagement/disengagemet....like you do in your manual, you won't have any more trouble with an F1 clutch than with a 6 spd. It is the same part # in both. It's pretty easy to recognize that the throttle sends the "engage" signal, and the brake signals the opposite. Like your manual, you wouldn't put big power through a partially engaged clutch....and shouldn't in an F1 either....unless those "burn outs " turn you on and you're willing to buy clutches. 3) Like they say "don't drive it like an automatic"....if the saying went "drive it like a manual", I think more people would get it...that is if they know how to drive a manual in the first place. | ||
| Dave Mills (360dave)
Junior Member Username: 360dave Post Number: 97 Registered: 1-2002 |
Beautifully said, Brian... Dave | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 595 Registered: 3-2002 |
I will agree that F1 removes some difficulty from driving; but it also elevates driving to a new level of precision that makes it more difficult. That is, it doesn't simply take away from driver skill... it rather changes driving skill. And this isn't peculiar to F1 trannies... the same can be said of ABS brakes... of syncro-mesh gears... and even of engines. So, the question for you (and each of us), is what technology do we want and what technology do we not want, to maximize our enjoyment. For example, ABS braking. Drivers of old had to feel the tire grip of the road in order to threshold brake. If they brake too hard, a tire will lock, resulting in less traction, and less braking. To regain the braking, they would need to release the brakes some, get the wheels rolling again, and then again modulate pressure to maximize braking. Note that like F1, ABS completely removes the need for that skill. With ABS, you can simply mash the "stop pedal" down to the floor and let ABS do its thing. So, did ABS simply make driving easier, taking one step further in disconnecting the driver from the road? Yes and no. The driver no longer needs to delicately threshold brake. But now the limit has been raised much higher, since ABS can act on each wheel independently. Thus, a driver can now do things not before possible. A driver can go much deeper into corners reliably before braking; but that necessitates much more quickness and precision, as there's a lot going on in the approach to a corner, which has now been compressed. Further, and more importantly, the driver can now trail brake effectively, no longer limited by the braking he can get from the one loaded tire based on the point of lock-up of the unloaded tires. The drivers focus has now shifted from straight-line delicate threshold braking before the corner, to monitoring weight transfer of the car, and smoothing that transfer, as he initiates the turn and trails off the brakes. And while I will understand the driver who says, "I prefer a car without ABS because I enjoy the challenge of proper threshold braking"... I too find that fun... I used to go out on rainy days just to have fun braking without lockup on a day where I'd use up less rubber. However, while I understand that driver, I personally disagree. I prefer to let the car do the simple stuff that it is capable of doing better than any human (regulating each tire to prevent lockup), and rather focus on the higher skills such as trail braking with all four tires contributing and managing the weight transfer and learning just how deep a corner can be taken with the variety of different lines based on how much trail braking you do. In fact, in one corner I am now learning how to further shorten the corner by allowing the car to rotate via heavy trail braking causing oversteer that can be managed by judicious weight transfer, leading to getting back on the gas much earlier. None of that would be of concern without ABS. Similarly, in the same series of corners (a slalom of sorts), I am able to downshift right in the middle of the slalom, just as I am turning the steering wheel through straight, from right to left. That is, I am shifting at a point that is ideal for the car (when it is straight) but is worst for the driver (when my hands are moving the steering wheel the fastest, the point of maximum transition rate). Try that with your manual! In fact, nobody but me and the other F1 drivers shift there. And that allows us to try things that others cannot. In this case, with the lower gear, I am able to use power-on oversteer to quickly rotate the car while at the lowest speed on the track, so as to get back on the power hard as I've straightened the next two corners markedly. (I am still trying to master that.) So, yes, my F1 prevents me from honing my heel-and-toe skills. But while you cling to honing those soon-to-be antiquated skills, I am honing many other driving skills that you cannot even consider. I am not saying my choice is better than yours... its personal preference (what's more fun for you)... but I am saying, please don't insult me as a less-skilled driver because I use F1. Rather, I am a *differently* skilled driver. And please don't imply that I have less knowledge of the car or am less in connection with the road. Those same objections can be levied at ABS. And in both cases they are wrong! As another example, that's a bit closer to home (the tranny), consider synchro-mesh gearing. That largely renders double-clutching unnecessary. Double-clutching was a critical driver skill of old... now most drivers do not do it at all. So why don't you who argue "I want my manual, no F1 for me" further argue "I want my manual without synchros!" In fact, most of you definitely want those synchros, and would scoff at an ancient tranny. Finally, let's consider an example much further from home... the engine! Far more numerous than the people heading out to the track with their high-horsepower engines, are people who actually scoff at the engine! They don't want simply the easy task of driving... they want the responsibility of propulsion as well! Bicyclists. Both road racers and off-roaders. They are out in hordes, clogging streets all over the country. They trade the driver difficulty of pedaling for the driver difficulty of managing much higher g-forces at much higher speeds, with much less reaction time. Is one harder than the other? I wouldn't even dare to compare them... they are simply different! It is a question of which skills do you most enjoy? So, you can keep your old technology and continue to develop your mastery of antiquated driving techniques such as heel-and-toe... and I understand your desire to do so, as it is fun to do. But please don't insult those of us who choose to move forward with new technology so that we can master the skills that become important with the new capabilities allowed by that technology. And understand that, just as non-ABS brakes are a thing of the past on cars, your beloved manual tranny may also vanish from cars you would otherwise love to have. Cheers. | ||
| rob guess (Beast)
Member Username: Beast Post Number: 458 Registered: 5-2003 |
Pete; i will have to agree with your comments 100%. Computers have made our live so much more easy. It is a good thing?? Yes and No. There are things that we enjoy today that we could not 20 years ago, F1 style shifting is one of those. I myself am a stick and clutch person. I have been this way the past 30 years when my dad taught myself how to drive. (a stick none the less) Every time i rent a car that is an auto just out of instinct i stab at the clutch pedal that is not there and try to pull the gear selector back. When i drive these cars i feel that i have lost control. With an F1 system i will feel that a lot of my control has been taken away for myself. Computers in the car have there place. Controlling the fuel delivery to the motor. controlling the ignition system to optimise it for current contitions. Navigation systems, CD and DVD players (????) i am kinda in the fence about that one. But for control of the transmisson, clutch and brakes NNNNOOOOOOOO!! Just my 2 cents worth. Rob Guess "The Other Rob" | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Intermediate Member Username: Psk Post Number: 1090 Registered: 11-2002 |
While MS can drive, he does owe a lot of his success to the car he drives ... and he is able to make it work better than the others. If it was a Minardi even MS would not win. I think you have missed my point, slightly. One can not ignore that it is easier to drive a paddle shift F1 car than one with a gearshift. They were designed to make it easier to drive, ie. able to keep both hands on the steering wheel, reduce the chance of a missed gear, etc. Thus they have removed the need for that extra skill from the current F1 drivers, as even they do not have to master the perfect gear change ... the computer does it for them. Just like traction control, and ABS ... all requiring less ability from the driver, and in both cases enabling drivers to treate their car like a appliance, instead of a complicated and dynamic machine. Have you ever used a Lathe? I will try and use a lathe for an example. Have a look in a workshop of an old skilled machinest and you will not necessarily see a brand new lathe. You are just as likely to see and old simple one that is worn and had a hard life. But the retired machinest is still able to turn the most accurate and beatiful things with it. Get a younger or less experienced machinest to use the same lathe and they could not turn a true and straight part ... BUT they could with a brand new and more modern lathe, as the new lathe does not need compensation for wear, etc. Thus the old machinest knows how to use the machine at his disposal better. It does the same job, but because he has to compensate and be more intune with the old lathe he IS more skillful  Hope that makes some sense, as that is what I am trying to say. Pete ps: Note I admire the technology, but I do not want to just flip a 'plastic' lever to change gears on my car, I want to do it | ||
| Bart Duesler (The_bart)
Member Username: The_bart Post Number: 411 Registered: 1-2003 |
I drive on streets, not race tracks. My left leg is a good thing about my body. Automatics suck. V-12 forever | ||
| Sunny Garofalo (Jaguarxj6)
Intermediate Member Username: Jaguarxj6 Post Number: 1075 Registered: 2-2003 |
I disagree with much of what has been said and Rick put it very simply.. because we drive differently with different technology doesn't mean we enjoy it any less. Some of us do use our road cars with less involved transmissions to full potential and thanks to said technology, can be faster in lap times, transitions, and that increases our personal enjoyment. Especially if we have the chops and endurance for perfect heel/toe and transitioning already! I hardly touch my brakes even in thick stop and go traffic and I drive a slush box. I'm not in less touch with my machine because I don't have a manual. I've had instructors say otherwise when I was on the track my first time several weeks ago. If you feel you have more control over your car with a manual transmission and feel more in tune with it, I hope manuals are not taken away. However, terms like "fool," "F1," "does not have to be in touch with," and "you need to master a manual gearbox (to realize full handling/accelerating potential of your car)" is simply not true and I find a smidgen insulting. At the end of the day when people are tired and sweating from the workout heel/toe'ing and changing gears to maximize their enjoyment, F1's allow those of us who like them to maintain a racer's edge do so for a longer period of time. That can be as equally as rewarding to people like me, and possibly Rick. "Putting the skill in the car ... does not equate to a more skilled combination, as the driver becomes less skilled..." Does Michael Schumacher really owe his wins to the skills of the Ferrari F1 car rather than his own? No? Why not.. Formula 1 uses paddle shifting cars now, but he still proves he's the better driver. How is that if he doesn't have a manual transmission? You see my point. Lets match up, I'll take an F1 and one of you take a manual transmission. Regardless of the outcome of the race, we will both have an equal sized silly grin on our faces. In 10 or 20 or 30 years, the young tifosi will look at our F1's and our manuals and laugh at us when they change gears with their thoughts rather than any motion at all. That gives a different spin on this notion of being more "in tune" with their machine. My responses were meant in good fun, I mean no offense. I felt I had to defend our skills as drivers regardless what style transmission we prefer. Sunny | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 590 Registered: 3-2002 |
> How is slippage controlled in the street F-1? Can you dial in more or less slippage? You can feather the clutch with the accelerator. Essentially, if you do what you would do with your right foot in a manual, the car will do with the clutch what you would be doing if you had the pedal. So, if you're on an incline, give it a little gas, but not enough that it can fully engage the clutch without stalling, and it will just partially engage the clutch... with a light touch, you can hold it steady on an incline with the clutch. (DON'T DO THIS!!!) Now, change the accelerator while its trying to engage the clutch, to where its trying to match you, you can jerk the car all around, like a newbie learning a manual. Its really kinda fun. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 646 Registered: 6-2001 |
Interesting points. Personally I like the 6 speed for the road, which i have on my road 360, and i like the f-1 on the Challenge car for super fast track shifts. The Challenge F-1 is very different from the street F-1 in that it has a racing clutch with zero slippage. It's either all on or all off. That's why Challenge cars are jerky from a low speed standing start. How is slippage controlled in the street F-1? Can you dial in more or less slippage? And yes, a 6 speed does take more manual coordination especially if driven correctly (heel and toe). Not everyone who thinks he's Schumacher paddle-shifting away in an f-1 car has any real idea about the handling/accelerating possibilities of their cars. You need to master a manual gearbox for that. | ||
| Bill Randazzo (Scuderia47)
New member Username: Scuderia47 Post Number: 32 Registered: 9-2003 |
rick, i think u missed Pete's point. all of us have our opinions and preferences between a manual gearbox and a F1 gearbox. what Pete is refering to is driver involvement. with a manually operated clutch, i know exactly how much i am slipping the clutch and when i am doing that. it teaches you much more about the car and gives you complete control... on the other hand though, Ferrari is using the latest technology in their cars. they were the first to use the paddle shifting mechanism in Formula 1 and they allow their customers to experience the latest technology, which i think is great. and you can always turn off all of those other gizmos like TC. i just wish that they offered a manual gearbox in the CS and Enzo. i buy a car with a manual tranny whenever i can, but thats just me. besides, that silver gated shifter looks so damn good! and the only better feeling than blipping the revs and getting a perfect down shift is an orgasm. | ||
| rick ramage (720)
Junior Member Username: 720 Post Number: 117 Registered: 7-2003 |
i respectfully disagree. IMHO the F1 makes driving the 360 about 1000 times more fun than driving a manual. driving a manual gearbox is also fun, but it's old technology. an F1 is fun on the track and it's fun on the street. period. i do not care about mastering outdated driving techniques associated with manual gearboxes. if you prefer manual gearboxes then that's fine, but don't imply that some how driving an F1 is less satisfying or that any yahoo can drive a ferrari well with an F1 gearbox. it still takes some skill to drive a ferrari well even with all the technology. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Intermediate Member Username: Psk Post Number: 1084 Registered: 11-2002 |
Just buy a manual. This technology IMO only has a place on the race track and simulator games ... total waste of time for a road car. While eventually this may be the norm and all cars will have this, personally I think this will be a sad day. Just like with automatics the driver does not have to be intouch with the machine they are in control off, this system does exactly the same thing. Thus we get drivers learning to drive cars where they see the accelerator as the go switch and the brake as the stop switch ... and they have no incling on how to correctly accelerate and brake. Driving a manual car (with a stick/gearlever) teaches you how to interact with the machine and if you are atleast 10% machanically inclined you will learn how to work the machine right. This actually makes you a safer (and faster ) driver as you realise that the brake is not a switch and you cannot just jump on it anytime ... and same with the accelerator, steering, everything, etc. While we make cars easier to drive (and yes the F1 system makes a Ferrari easier to drive, ie. your mother-inlaw could change gear in your Ferrari just as good as you with F1) we are making them to EASY to learn ... no longer does it take some thinking and appreciation. Thus this will increase stupid laws aimed at reducing accidents, as law makers will never solve the real problem: driver education!!!, and ability. Thus in conclusion: make something so any fool can use it, and any fool will ... and they will do it badly. Putting the skill in the car ... does not equate to a more skilled combination, as the driver becomes less skilled ... Pete | ||
| P. Thomas (Ferrari_fanatic)
Member Username: Ferrari_fanatic Post Number: 630 Registered: 4-2003 |
I recently had a conversation with Eric at FOBH. I was talking to him about the lack of longevity of the 360 F-1 clutch vs. the 355 F-1 clutch. First and foremost he indicated (as you are propbably well aware of) that the 360 F-1 and 355 F-1 trannies are TOTALLY different. That being said he offered these words of wisdom for 360 F-1 Drivers: 1) DO NOT back your car up hill. The clutch does not fully engage and you are literally slipping it while reversing...Nasty. 2) Do not drive it like an automatic. When cruising especially up hill, if you are just resting your foot on the gas your clutch may also not be fully engaged. You are best off to let of the gas and stab it again. This would seem like an opposite (you THINK that you are babying your car) but in fact you are wearing the heck out of your clutch. I do not have an F-1 so I do not have to worry as much. For the "newer" F-1 drivers out there, hope this helps. |