| Author | Message | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1642 Registered: 1-2002 |
Gordan Murray's comment re: oxidation of carbon got me thinking. So, I noodled over how oxygen propogates through a carbon reinforced ceramic material. Essentially, there are two, conditional, types of Ox that can take place; low-temp reaction controlled kinetic oxidation; and high-temp diffusion controlled oxidation. In the former , the oxygen seeps into the material through an abrasion, or nick, at the leading edge, but the rate of C oxidation is mediated by the rate at which the C is consumed under oxidation condtions on account of the low temp [750 C]. Under the latter example, the oxygen once again seeps in through an abrasion in the material, or it's leading edge, but because the temps are elevated [1250 C], the oxidation of C takes place at a diffusion dependant rate; that is, the C is consumed by a wave front of entering oxygen, and the kinetics are dependant only upon the diffusion gradient of oxygen coming into the carbon matrix. So, the carbon in the material is eaten away until it's entirely consumed. In my mind, this bears credance to the rapid "dusting" of the rotors when/if they start to degrade, and the warning against not knicking the rotor when changing pads/wheels as it could precipitate the conditions leading up to rotor destruction as descirbed above. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Intermediate Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 1250 Registered: 4-2002 |
"I've never heard of F1 teams bedding in rotors." Back in the Lauda era, they would hang a red sticker on the steering wheel to tell the driver that new pads had been installed. This tells the driver that the brakes won't work for about the first 6 corners. Fron "Art and Science of Grand Prix Racing" Niki Lauda. In modern F1 cars, the pads and rotors are designed to survive 220 miles {qualifying and the race}. They are changed just before qualifying, and are not 'servicible' after the race (in the dry). | ||
| Will 575 (Willh)
Member Username: Willh Post Number: 376 Registered: 3-2003 |
Gian, lovely car, is that Rosso Scuderia? We will expect a complete post track debriefing upon your return! Congratulations again, and enjoy. Your comments about data have prompted me to start a separate thread about data acquisition from the 360 series. | ||
| gian maria traversone (Giamma)
Junior Member Username: Giamma Post Number: 113 Registered: 10-2002 |
Brian, The car I am recevining it in Costa Rica by the end of next week, and I am planing to take it to the track on a event on Nov. 16.I will let you know my amateur feeling on the car as soon as I try it out on the track. The stripes stripes steacker are on correctly but I saw one painted and it is defenetly nicer.. but then I think with the 5000 Dollars I can buy a Vbox fot for the car ( telemetry hardware by GPS.., lap time, gs forces, bracking efficency, ect...) and Dave I have planty picture of that lady , she is my Wife.. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Intermediate Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 1150 Registered: 8-2001 |
Brian, I know little of carbon rotor technology but I would assume coming from F1 and LeMans that they would be less sensitive to bedding proceedures, though I could be wrong on this. I've never heard of F1 teams bedding in rotors. Bottom line is that it appears they aren't ready for street applications just yet. Regards, Jon | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 3263 Registered: 1-2002 |
Gian, can we have more pictures of that lovely, shapely young lady next to your car, per favore? Che bella regazza! | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 638 Registered: 3-2002 |
> I've run a few times without bedding them in and while it did reduce the life > of the rotor (by about 30-40%) it surely didn't reduce it by 90% +. Oh, agreed... I didn't mean its exactly the same... just that it does make a huge difference in the normal case (30-40% is pretty huge), so its not unthinkable that its real important in the carbon case. But it does seem reasonable that carbon brakes are more sensitive. Its also possible that not bedding them in properly leads to much higher temperatures such that not only is it eating the rotor, it starts cooking them too. I am not saying any of this is so... just saying that such explanation is not unreasonable. > A Pagid Orange has decent cold temp performance after two or so laps but > a Performance Friction Carbon pad takes at least 4 laps to get up to operating temperature. Yeah, but you're talking about track performance. When I said there are modern racing pads with good cold performance, I didn't mean "at the limit" performance. I meant "driving to get the groceries" performance where the alternative is a typical street pad. If my race pads are at only 70% performance when cold, they are still braking better than street pads. Yeah, I take it easy the first few laps on the track... but I go out on the street knowing I can out-brake most anything... even in the cold and wet. In the old days, most of the race pads were useless cold... your car wouldn't be able to out-brake an Expedition until you got a little heat into them. And I will agree that some pads today will be the same... and those may be the best pads on the track. But c'mon, we're talking about a street car used on the track, compared to the other compromises made, the compromise to one of the race pads that have decent cold performance (70%, say) is not much of a compromise. So, I stand by my statements (with clarifications). Brian | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Intermediate Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 1149 Registered: 8-2001 |
Brian, Proper "bedding in" of pads and rotors extends the life of each but not bedding them in properly isn't going to reduce a rotor from "the life of the car" to 1200 miles. At some races we have to change rotors in the middle of practive or at the end just before qualifying or a race. I've run a few times without bedding them in and while it did reduce the life of the rotor (by about 30-40%) it surely didn't reduce it by 90% +. Laslty, real race pads don't have good cold operating temps. There is a wide variety of compounds out there from Pagid, Hawk, PF, Fedorro and so on but the higher you go on the cold temp. operating chart the less bite (torque rating) the pad has. A Pagid Orange has decent cold temp performance after two or so laps but a Performance Friction Carbon pad takes at least 4 laps to get up to operating temperature. Comparing the two in terms of stopping power the PFC will blow the Pagid pad into the weeds. On cold days (below 50 F) I have to tape up the brake ducts or the PFC pads never get up to temp in a 20 minute session. The race pads that offer good cold performance are closer to a performance/track/street pad then an extreme race pad. I would say at least half the people who put performance rotors and pads on their car to bring to the track don't ever drive them hard enough to make bedding in a real issue. Just to give you an example. If I bed in my Challenge rotors I get 4 days out of them tops, if I don't bed them in 2 days tops. Just my 2 cents worth! Regards, Jon | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 637 Registered: 3-2002 |
> I put the stripes on with steackes, but I regret it, > I reccomend the painted ones, even if they are 5000$... Regret it? Why? Did you have it done professionally? | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 636 Registered: 3-2002 |
Note that there are modern race pads available that have good cold temperature performance. Thus, there are race pads that are suitable for street use, as long as you can tolerate the squealing. Note that many race pads call for a break-in much like Gian describes for the Stradale brakes... so that seems reasonable. Further, if nobody from Ferrari bothered to tell Mr. Rapp that (which wouldn't surprise me), I could certainly see where he'd end up eating through them in no time. But you'd think after such a warranty claim that Ferrari would make that clear... but then again, maybe they just figured that out themselves. Gian, any chance you'll be taking your Stradale to the track anytime soon? There's several of us here who would be quite relieved to hear some positive results.  Sigh. | ||
| gian maria traversone (Giamma)
Junior Member Username: Giamma Post Number: 112 Registered: 10-2002 |
I put the stripes on with steackes, but I regret it, I reccomend the painted ones, even if they are 5000$...     | ||
| Will 575 (Willh)
Member Username: Willh Post Number: 375 Registered: 3-2003 |
"I just had my Stradale delivered," Congratulations! POST SOME PICS! | ||
| gian maria traversone (Giamma)
Junior Member Username: Giamma Post Number: 111 Registered: 10-2002 |
I just had my Stradale delivered, and the brakes matter was the first thing I asked the technitian that was there when they deliverd the car.A Ferrari test driver was also thereand they said the following. The carbon ceramic disk should live the life of the car if you make a good brake through ( like in the engine)To brake though the brakes the guys told me to drive the first 1000 Km easy on the brakes , tipical downtown driving, then after the first 1000 Km make some heavy braking from 200km/h to 0 km/h and let the brakes cool off, than make another one and cool off, at least 4 or 5 of this braking. This is to be done every pads exchange. The garantee that if we do that the pads will never cristalize and the disk will never scatch or detiriorate. They also told me that the braking efficiancy increases as the temperature increases, they even advise me that in a long trip in a highway with long time without braking the efficiancy of the brakes will decrease, so they reccomend touch the brake pedal everynow and then so the disk will always be warm. Anyway the braking of the car is impressive, the pedal is harder than in the 360 Modena but if you step on it hard the car comes to a sudden stop like I have never experianced. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Intermediate Member Username: Psk Post Number: 1127 Registered: 11-2002 |
James, That is a very good point about track pads on the road. Many years ago I was driving my father to get some parts in my club race car (which was road legal at the time) and I scared myself and my father silly because I had forgotten to warm the brakes and we came to a roundabout queue and I very nearly hit the car infront ... Very scary thing to have on a road car, when you just do not know when you might need that braking performance! Pete | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Intermediate Member Username: Psk Post Number: 1126 Registered: 11-2002 |
Could not agree more Jon and Tazio ... that is what I was trying to say. All very interesting ... Pete | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Advanced Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 2979 Registered: 10-2002 |
Tazio I think your point is very true. The real world is far from the F1 grid. None of this is any good if the people who really use their cars on the track revert back to iron because ceramic doesn't last long enough. I would also be carefull about running track pads on the street. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Intermediate Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 1197 Registered: 6-2002 |
1200 fricking miles?! I smell a class action. Hey, worst case you can always to to Challenge brakes on the 360. Best! Ben. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Intermediate Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 1148 Registered: 8-2001 |
Guys, I know practically nothing about carbon rotor construction or the engineering that goes in them. However the big benefit of these brakes on street cars was supposed to be decreased wear and lightness. As Tazio pointed out there are little benefits of saving 40 pounds on car that weighs 3000 or thereabouts and is driven primarily at track days (non-competition) and street use. It appears that the durability that Porsche and Ferrari have marketed to their customers is a bunch of baloney. This reminds of all the marketing hype about the 360 street cars improved aeropackage and that it made more downforce than a 355 C w/ a wing. Of course we saw the results of that improved aero pakcage at the first 360 Challenge race at Homestead when 12 cars crashed. I was at Sebring of the 12 hour race in 1999 when BMW LMP V12 car ran the whole race (and won) on the same set of rotors and pads. All the other teams had to change them. This along with the weight savings was the main benefit to race teams. I remember somewhere Porsche making the claim that the rotors should last the life of the car or something along those lines. Seems to me this is more marketing hype for the image conscious buyer. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 www.flatoutracing.net | ||
| Tazio Nuvolari (Nuvolari)
Member Username: Nuvolari Post Number: 346 Registered: 9-2002 |
Unfortunatly ceramic / carbon brake technology is far too specialized and underdeveloped for the conventional road car (even supercar) market. The car designers are all horny to getting it to market because they are appealing to 99% of the population who like to tell their friends about their braking system when they can't come to within 80% of the car's capabilites if their life depended on it. Perhaps I am being a little harsh but the fact is that carbon brakes are not yet ready for the road. Steel brakes brake every bit as well and the reduced unspring rotational mass is really only meaningful if you are looking for those final thousanths in final qualifying. A note on F1 brakes. The rotors and pads are made from pyralized (SP?) carbon fiber which is a technology developed in the military for airplane brakes. The high cost comes in that the raw carbon slabs take about 6 months to make and they are then machined into rotors. I really liked the scan Mark put up as it explains the current state of affairs very well. | ||
| Warren Smith (Wazza)
New member Username: Wazza Post Number: 9 Registered: 10-2003 |
Guys, I also have a Stradale on order. Shud be delivered (UK) by the the time I get back from the Macau GP in mid nov '03. All this talk of potential problems with the carbon brakes has me really worried. I expect to track it pretty hard starting in the spring '04, maybe 6-10 times thru the year. I've been like a young kid for the last few months waiting for his favourite toy to arrive. AND FOR IT TO LIVE UP TO MY HIGH EXPECTATIONS STRAIGHT OUT OF THE BOX. Every single report i've read, either in the motoring press or Ferrari's own blurb has helped build my hopes up that this car will do all the things I want from it. Which is a very good and stable track car and a limited road car. I am prepared to live with the few discomforts on the road. BUT IT BETTER LIVE UP TO IT ON THE TRACK. I hadn't even given it a thought that the cardon brakes might not be up to the job. I guess time will tell. When it evenually comes i promise i'll post my thoughts/results here for you guys who are still waiting or just interested. Here's hoping Wazza | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 3262 Registered: 1-2002 |
One other tidbit I have picked up from my Porsche buddies about PCCB's: if, while changing your pads, or even changing your wheels, you nick one of the rotors with a fingernail such that there is a visible gouge...the rotor needs to be replaced. Seems that any surface break of that nature, not related to circumferential friction from the pads, creates a nearly immediate stress crack through the rotor, potentially leading to total rotor failure at some inopportune, sphincter-tightening moment. | ||
| robert di meglio (Robdimeglio)
New member Username: Robdimeglio Post Number: 25 Registered: 3-2002 |
Brian and Will: As one who is in line to spec out a Stradale soon, I too am concerned about the carbon/ceramic brake durability issue. Lets face it, the whole point of the car is to have something that right out of the box is more suited to hard track drivng than the standard 360M or similar model that we already have. Also, it's a car that is street legal and can be enjoyed in that way on a regular basis. With the above considerations in mind, I did order my incoming GT3 with the standard iron rotors, figuring that the extra cost of the optional ceramics on that car is just not worth it, IMHO. The more I hear about the problems people are having with these new carbon/ceramic discs, the more nervous I get about the 360CS. After all, the PRIMARY advantage of this model over the standard Modena is supposed to be the brakes. My question now is, at what cost and are they really worth it if they don't last? | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Intermediate Member Username: Psk Post Number: 1124 Registered: 11-2002 |
How long have the Stradales been available in Europe for? If there was a problem then one would think we would know about it by now? Brian, I did not realise that you had a Stradale on order, and I also did not mean to worry you or cause any doubt over you awesome purchase ... I was just discussing carbon brakes in general. Please post a review when you receive your car Pete | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 633 Registered: 3-2002 |
Will, I totally agree. Assuming my Stradale arrives as expected in December, if it has this problem, I will be having the brakes replaced under warranty by the end of January! And yep, I'll have my trusty pyrometer with me and I'll be watching them closely so that I can figure out if I can fix the problem with some mods (like air ducting, as you suggested) or whatever. And if it survives that test, we'll see if that changes as we move from Texas winter to Texas summer. A 100' afternoon can make a big difference! My goal is to get to the mileage limit of my warranty before the time limit, with at least half the miles track miles! (Not likely, but I'll be shooting for it. ) | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 632 Registered: 3-2002 |
Right... I am saying they are being touted as fully track worthy (like racing pads on iron rotors), but lighter weight, quiet on the street, and longer-lived. They just fail to point out that they are only longer-lived if you do NOT drive them hard on the track! Just like a marketer... to sell A and B as if they come together, even though they are mutually exclusive. If that is the case, I will be giving Ferrari hell for it... as I expect the Pcar owners are giving Porsche hell. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Intermediate Member Username: Psk Post Number: 1121 Registered: 11-2002 |
Lucky you Will If I was local I would come a long and help change wheels, and man the stop watch, etc. BUT I live in Sydney  Pete | ||
| Will 575 (Willh)
Member Username: Willh Post Number: 374 Registered: 3-2003 |
Brian, as a fellow track junkie, my only conclusion is that some amateur testing may be desirable. Once the cars arrive, I'd be happy to chip in for a track rental, and with a pyrometer and temp sensitive paints I suspect at least some preliminary conclusions could be drawn about the temps. Heck, we don't even know if there's a problem at all with the Stradale; whether any problem will be track specific, or track/ambient temp specific, or technique specific (I left foot brake). My Challenge car is at FoW, so I can't recall what ducting is available to the brakes; whether the Stradale will have some sort bodywork interfering with air flow to the brakes; etc. I've yet to encounter a street car that was out of the box great on the track. And, though reluctantly, I'm willing to invest a LOT of track time to try to sort things out. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Intermediate Member Username: Psk Post Number: 1120 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hmmm Brian,
Has anyone driven a Stradale with racing Iron disk setup. A road tester saying the car has awesome stopping power means nothing ... so will the iron disk setup. BTW a properly setup iron disk brake system ALSO will not fade! When the F1 team Williams only a few years ago built and raced an F1 car with iron disks and found it braked just as well ... then I know which one I'd believe. Saying that ... technology does move fast, and if they can improve the life expectancy and make them quiet then that is all good. BTW: Do not believe everything you read ... especially car literature. Remember they are trying to sell YOU a car. I believe owner reports and it sounds to me like they have a problem with the Enzo and the same problem may find its way into the Stradale. Also I have to admit if I was to buy a 360, I would probably order the Stradale ... because the racer in me would want that model. Not rational at all, but that is the way it is ... heh atleast Ferrari is building a car now intended for the track!! Cool!. (although I thought that was what the Challenge cars are all about). I can see the problem that Ferrari have and I guess that limited market of track car and occassional road car as William said has a few (or many) buyers out there. Lets wait and see, and in conclusion we have to keep moving the goal posts ... Pete | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 629 Registered: 3-2002 |
Actually, the flaming you might get is that you seem to have not been keeping up with the technology or the car literature. The Stradale's carbon/ceramic brakes are not only touted as lighter weight, but also as being able to handle heavy track use without fading. They are also positioned as having awesome stopping power, and that has been echoed by reviewers. Further, for street use, their life expectancy is supposed to be much longer than normal pads and rotors. And, unlike running track-worthy pads on the street, you get all that without the damned squeaky brakes when doing normal street driving. For a guy that likes to drive his 360 to the track once a week, that is an extremely appealing set of features. EXTREMELY APPEALING. No "latest technology" BS, or any of the rest of the nonsense from your posts. Simply better. HOWEVER, based on the posts so far, it appears that if you get those brakes TOO HOT on the track, though they won't fade, they will start to wear exponentially faster. That may not be an issue for someone who takes his Ferrari to the track once a year for the annual meet. But for a track junkie, that nullifies all the above, unless Ferrari will keep replacing them under warranty. Anyway, I suggest you go read up on a topic before you try to argue how senseless it is. | ||
| Will 575 (Willh)
Member Username: Willh Post Number: 373 Registered: 3-2003 |
"nothing in amature racing where the reduced driver skill probably costs 5 seconds a lap." This is so true, and yet no one wants to hear it. You have to see it on the track, when someone with a quarter of the budget and half the car outdrives you. Pete, Ferrari specifically claims superior braking performance for the Stradale v 360 Modena - 15% improvement - and makes general claims about the "astounding performance of the ceramic brakes." Hence Brian's comments about marketing of the feature. The brakes may take some development to work properly under hard track use - I just hope they don't require frequent replacement, in which case I suppose some folks will switch to iron. Not intending to flame you at all! I think your general comments echo an earlier post that the Stradale is a "pretend race car." I agree that a street/track car requires compromises that diminish suitability for both uses. Having driven purpose built race cars, even a wannabe like me can acknowledge that a modified street car will never satisfy. I'd nonetheless personally rather have a car that tries to do the impossible and suit both street and track uses, and recognize its limitations. I think the market for a hybrid race and street car is very small, and I thank Ferrari for taking an interest in it. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Intermediate Member Username: Psk Post Number: 1116 Registered: 11-2002 |
Now I know some of you are going to flame me over my last post and say things like: Ferraris should be about the ultimate technology and performance, etc. But one has to remember that excellence in design means you design a product to suit exactly what it is intended to be used for. Carbon brakes have no application on the road and the unsprung weight difference has no real benefit to the road, especially when you are hanging a heavy road tyre and wheel right next to it. Yes every little bit helps but come on ... Now if Ferrari went back to its roots and instead made road cars and 100% race cars, then the 100% race model should come with carbon brakes! But I've said this all before ... Pete | ||
| PSk (Psk)
Intermediate Member Username: Psk Post Number: 1115 Registered: 11-2002 |
The advantage of carbon brakes has little to do with increased braking performance over iron rotors ... infact Williams a few years ago ran iron rotors in one of their cars and it braked just as well. The sole purpose and usefullness is the weight loss ... which reduces unsprung weight, which is very important on the track. Personally any road car that is supplied with carbon rotors ... is basically because the manufacturer/designer is having a personal sexual experience. We have to remember that F1 rotors are replaced just about every session ... hardly appropriate for road use. If you read more about Gordon Murray's comments on carbon brakes it will back up my comment that the racing guys use them for unsprung weight improvements NOT braking improvements. Pete ps: If the Stradale comes with carbon brakes then it makes a little bit of a mockery of the ocassional road use selling point. If it was an option I would order the iron rotors ... you will spend far more time on the track and road enjoying your car, instead of leaning up against the bar bragging that your car has carbon brakes that weigh 0.05 of a kg less than the equivalent iron rotors which must work out to a lap time difference of something like 0.05 of a second. Yep big difference in F1 ... nothing in amature racing where the reduced driver skill probably costs 5 seconds a lap. Still one day they may make it work for the road ... but I have to question why?. Considering it takes something like 6 months to make a single F1 rotor, and costs squilions ... | ||
| MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Intermediate Member Username: Markpdx Post Number: 1217 Registered: 4-2003 |
FWIW here is part of an interview with Gordon Murray that was in the February 2003 issue of EVO  | ||
| MarkPDX (Markpdx)
Intermediate Member Username: Markpdx Post Number: 1216 Registered: 4-2003 |
IIRC Porsche disks are C/SiC, are Ferrari disks essentially the same material or is there a difference? | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1641 Registered: 1-2002 |
brian: f1 brakes are PURE carbon. the pccb's are carbon/ceramic; all together different. | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Intermediate Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 1833 Registered: 10-2001 |
So do we have to conclude that both the rotors and pads dont last on an Enzo ? and on a GT2 ? | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 623 Registered: 3-2002 |
So, is Mr. Rapp the only one regularly tracking an Enzo? Nobody has gotten their Stradales yet in the US. But is anyone tracking a Stradale regularly yet in Europe? It would be very interesting to find out their experiences. I wonder... how long do an F1 car's brake rotors last? I realize they're not quite the same (the F1 brakes don't have to work well cold on the street)... but its not like Ferrari doesn't know how to build carbon brakes for the track. Hmmmm... | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1639 Registered: 1-2002 |
ps : for fun , here's a front pad from an enzo:  (taken by matt at carbotech). | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1636 Registered: 1-2002 |
Brian- Essentially, that's it. I know someone that works for carbotech eng. in NC, and he's talked to Mr. Rapp and is looking into getting him conventional pad replacements once he goes to iron rotors. The reason a lot of pccb owners are upset is that they were pitched the pccbs under the pretense that they would be perfect for track /high performance use; now it's become a matter of: if you use the regular "street" pads on the pccbs rotors on track, they overheat quickly, wear out and chew up the rotor; the "race" pads are only marginally better, and still don't provide adequate braking perfomance on track. (most recently a GT2 owner took his car to laguna seca, used the "race" pads and still had problems). If the 360cs brakes are fashioned after the enzo system, then I don't see what would proclude them from exhibiting the same problems -- other than the 360cs being slightly lighter than the enzo. | ||
| Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Member Username: Kennedy Post Number: 622 Registered: 3-2002 |
Wasn't the sales pitch for the PCCB's around their performance in track use? I certainly hope the Stradale won't behave similarly... that would be extremely disappointing. On Mr. Rapp, let me get this straight: * He's been regularly going through rotors in 1200 miles * The dealer has been replacing them for free (I assume as defective, under warranty) * But now he's having them replaced with traditional rotors/pads Did I get that right? Is the dealer building them to avoid continued warranty claims, or is Bob doing it on his nickel to avoid it constantly being in the shop?? | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Intermediate Member Username: Whart Post Number: 1716 Registered: 12-2001 |
The brakes are fine for street driving. They are also great on the track with the right pads fitted, but are costly to replace; the guy i am working with has suggested going back to iron brakes for any extensive track use. | ||
| Dale W Spradling (Drtax)
Member Username: Drtax Post Number: 522 Registered: 4-2003 |
Indeed, I meet Bob Rap at the Montreal GP, and he really does drive his Enzo, even to the store to get groceries. Maybe someday, Bob will tell the story about the impact that his yellow horse has on the ladies... Dale | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Advanced Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 3261 Registered: 1-2002 |
Yeah, you're right: Porsche has had real problems with PCCB's. Seems the pads they fitted tear the heck out of the rotors in spirited track use...and there are as yet no other track pads available! Rotors are lasting ~2,000 miles, and owners are furious. I have also heard from my PCA buddies, just as you have, that many PCCB owners are making numerous warranty claims (which Porsche resist in many cases), and some have dumped their brakes for conventional iron rotors. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Intermediate Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 1875 Registered: 9-2002 |
I know 2 GT2 owners who have gone back to conventional brake systems from their PCCB - apparently it just doesn't hold its own. --Dan | ||
| Will 575 (Willh)
Member Username: Willh Post Number: 372 Registered: 3-2003 |
I wonder if Stradale owners will face the same issues. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Intermediate Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 1146 Registered: 8-2001 |
Bob, the Enzo owner was at VIR with his car a few months back. A buddy of mine talked with him and if I understood right the rotors and pads are paid for by FNA. Apparently Bob went through a set at Sebring. I don't think it's a case of being charged for them but of him having to keep replacing them. I am sure these aren't rotors that the local Ferrari dealer has laying around on shelves. And unlike most of the Enzo owners who do nothing more than drive them the country club or stare at them all day in the garage, Bob actually drives the crap out of his Enzo from what I understand. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 www.flatoutracing.net | ||
| Mark (Study)
Intermediate Member Username: Study Post Number: 1035 Registered: 10-2001 |
This guy has no F1 spirit! Doesn't he support the F1 racing team and all it has given Ferrari street cars? This is why Ferrari is investing so much money into F1 so their cars can bring some of that $400 million dollar tech. to your back yard. LOL Dude, if you're reading this...you're a lucky man for owning an Enzo... all I can do is make a few jokes. But I must also say Mr. Rapp has a good idea | ||
| Erik (Teenferrarifan)
Member Username: Teenferrarifan Post Number: 423 Registered: 2-2003 |
$24k a rotor who would pay almost $100k to have new brake rotors installed you have to be kidding me. Erik | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Advanced Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 3527 Registered: 6-2001 |
$24,000 rotor? He is getting royally screwed. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Intermediate Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 1635 Registered: 1-2002 |
I just read that Bob Rapp (NC enzo owner) is having his ceramic brakes replaced with a custom, std. system he's having built. I guess he's sick of going through $6,000 brake pads and $24,000 rotor that only lasted 1200 miles of combined track/street use. BTW- the enzo rear caliper is the same as the subaru sti and mitsubishi EVO front caliper. The way the above excerpt reads ... it would sound to me like porsche is back pedaling. | ||
| Will 575 (Willh)
Member Username: Willh Post Number: 370 Registered: 3-2003 |
Found this cited in a Rennlist thread. On its face, the conclusion seems obvious, but it makes you wonder: "Optional equipment on the 911 Carrera 4S and 911 Carrera 4S Cabriolet now includes the Porsche Ceramic Composite Brake (PCCB). At the heart of this new technology is a cross-drilled and internally vented ceramic disc that is approximately 50% lighter than its conventional metal-based alternative. The PCCB offers extremely high and consistent levels of friction. Other benefits of the system include a long service life and extremely low abrasion. However, the rate of component wear is directly dependent on individual driving style and the conditions in which the system is used. High braking loads on the track or in difficult driving conditions can lead to a noticeable deterioration of the discs.* *It is always highly advisable to have the braking system on your vehicle checked and the necessary components replaced by a professional. |