| Author | Message | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 293 Registered: 3-2002 |
What I find interesting about all this is nobody from within the F1 fraternity is really speaking out against Ferrari. Like it or not, all this really shows is that one team is so dominant over the others, they have the luxury of tinkering with the finishing order of their cars. Basically, if you don't like it, do something about it on the track. Any team that voices skepticism only opens themselves up to criticism that they don't measure up to Ferrari's level . | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 900 Registered: 9-2001 |
Richard, players(not teams) in other sports will often allow another player to break a record that he/she may be close to, but not at the expense of losing. In this case, the team ordered Rubins to lose on purpose so MS could win. | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 569 Registered: 12-2001 |
Oh my GAWD - pun intended - they are getting priests involved!!!! http://www.f1racing.net/news.php?ID=47060 | ||
| Richard Stephens (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 83 Registered: 10-2001 |
Frank asked: "Name any other sport where its okay to allow another participate to give the win to another." There are many. This is common in all forms of racing, be they auto, motorcycle, bicycle, or running. Also, in team ball/puck sports, many times a team member will sacrifice his own performance to keep giving the ball/puck to a teammate to set some sort of scoring record. It was a bummer for Rubens, especially since he out qualified Michael. But if Rubens had been on another team and the team was not under team orders, it is always possible that he would have pushed it just a little harder in qualifying to get into the #1 spot instead of settling for #2 (which with the team orders is as good as #1). I mean how many times have we seen Michael go out in the last minute of qualifying and snag the pole? He always has some in reserve: this time he just didn't need to use it. Same goes for the race - if Rubens' car was just as fast but said "Williams" on the side, how many of you really believe Michael couldn't have beat him in the race? Rubens was not robbed. He was allowed to lead and then give it up at the end. This sort of thing is accepted in F1. It's time to move on to Monaco! | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Junior Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 174 Registered: 2-2002 |
I Agree | ||
| David (Supraoz)
Junior Member Username: Supraoz Post Number: 109 Registered: 9-2001 |
And it won't be the last time either  | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Junior Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 173 Registered: 2-2002 |
Ross and David. See my comments below. So whatif it happened before? | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Junior Member Username: Ross Post Number: 77 Registered: 3-2002 |
david, thank you for giving us the exact illustration to the story i alluded to this morning. this is precisely what i meant, and it isn't the only story of this type in the last 50 years. | ||
| David (Supraoz)
Junior Member Username: Supraoz Post Number: 108 Registered: 9-2001 |
Jail Time? LOL we better put DC, Mika, MS, Barrichello, Salo, Ralf, JP. Half of the series drivers and the team managers in jail and throw away the key. Barrichello had 6 pts vs. Michael's 44 going into the race. I feel bad for Rubens because he is putting his life on the line but come on already. I got this from a friend: One has to remember, this sort of action is nothing new to F-1 or racing in general. At the 1955 Italian Grand Prix, none other than the Maestro, Juan Manuel Fangio had 30 points and needed to finish second or higher to take the title. But Peter Collins was second with 22 points, so if he won, took fastest lap, and Fangio failed to finish, then Collins would be World Champion, 31 to 30. This was the first time a British driver was in contention for the Championship. During the race, Fangio's Lanica Ferrari D60 developed a tendency to pull hard right under braking forcing him to the pits. Musso, Fangio's Ferrari team mate was asked by Ferrari directors to come into the pits while lying third to hand his car over to Fangio; Musso refused. Collins, who then moved up to third, was also asked by Ferrari to hand over to Fangio. Collins never hesitated and handed over to Fangio who embraced Collins before climbing into the car. Stirling Moss won the race and Fangio (driving Collins' car) finished second, taking his fourth World Championship and Ferrari's third (although with a Lancia badged car). For those lamenting Ferrari's decision on Sunday (like Stirling Moss who has stated that, "Formula One is dead") they may look back on history and find that through history, many champsionships (including that of Formula One's most enduring figure) have been decided in such a manner. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Junior Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 172 Registered: 2-2002 |
This has been a really interesting thread with lots of heated opinions and passionate responses. Cheating of all sorts has always been a part of racing. Team orders have always been a part of racing. Since the late Seventies when racing got safer and Dale Earnhardt and others came on the scene pushing your opponent off the track to win has been a part of racing. Putting your opponent's life in danger by swerving at the start has been developed to an art by Schumacher and it is emulated in the lower formulae by every rising young star. But, does the fact that it's 'always been that way' make it right? Racing as a sport has been in serious decline for several years. Certainly attendance and sponsorship are on the upswing but any semblance of sportsmanship is being weaned out of it. With business powerhouses like Mercedes, Ford, Renault and BMW in the fray Formula One is becoming a giant corporate Public Relations parade. Montezemolo made the decision to ensure that MS wins the Championship so that more of us will buy his silly clown shoes and G-P watches. To some extent maybe we're all dupes in his game. Personally, I liked racing better when it was a sport. I'm free to decide whether I will continue to watch or not, just as I am free to fall for the contrived histrionics of professional wrestling or turn off the tube. For the moment I'm still watching. PS: Wrestling is growing in attendance, viewership and sponsorship too. See any correlation? | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Junior Member Username: Manu Post Number: 244 Registered: 2-2002 |
I agree with you Nika - At the end of the day, these tactics suck but Ferrari is too afraid to lose - they lost out in the final race in 97/98/99 so I can understand why Montezemolo gave the orders. I don't like it but I understand it. Montezemolo recently admitted that F1 is a fortnightly "judgement" which he finds the most difficult part of his job - he is afraid of and hates losing - his orders are what Enzo would have done - Win the title at any cost. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Junior Member Username: Ross Post Number: 76 Registered: 3-2002 |
frank, i am disappointed with the outcome as well. but nika is right, this is the way f1 is and we will all have to get over it. you sound either like you had a whole bunch of money riding on a rubens win, or you are naive to the ways of the world of f1. | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 568 Registered: 12-2001 |
Frank - maybe curling, tennis or horseshoes are better sports for you to be involved in. Racing is basically seeing how far you can go without breaking the rules...and in many cases - how far you can go breaking them without getting caught. Even in spec series I would bet the farm top racers ..um.......find creative ways of doing things. My point is: THIS IS NOT AGAINST THE RULES and this is NOT the first time it's happened Being in the profession you are in don't you feel that justice has to be given equally - across the board? Why punish Ferrari but not the others who are guilty of the same Is that fair? Rest assured Ferrari has a PR nightmare right now already. Make rules against this sort of thing is one option - but then I'm sure Rubens would of had...um...."slight car trouble" maybe a longer pit stop........The world at times is one big wrestling match. ** the reason this is not "fixing" they are on the same TEAM | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 885 Registered: 9-2001 |
Nika, if its not fixing a race, then what is it ? Name any other sport where its okay to allow another participate to give the win to another. Not only do I hope some Ferrari management people get jail time, I hope other teams sue Ferrari in civil court and win. And, if a lot of people in motorsports need to be put in jail to stop this type of crime, so be it. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Junior Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 153 Registered: 8-2001 |
Read David Coulthard's remarks. He agrees with the decision and took part in a similar move to let Hakkinen win in 99'. You guys and the media are blowing this way out of proportion. Fixed??? Maybe you can say the last lap was fixed but the other 70 laps surely were not. I doubt Ferrari's strategy was "let Reubens win qualifying, then let him lead the first 70 laps and then have him move over for Michael.." Read DC's comments: http://www.itv-f1.com/news/news_story/10673 Jon | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Junior Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 132 Registered: 2-2001 |
Okay, I've been pursuaded and am gonna go against popular opinion and side with Frank on this one. Further, I'd recommend a somewhat more lenient variant of Mussolini justice. Specifically, a public "wedgie" ("gaunch pull" for Canadians in attendance) for Todt and Montezemolo as perhaps the only sensible way to manage this difficult matter. Upside? Imagine the value of these Fruit Of The Looms to the serious collector. Oh, and now seems as good a time as any to change the handle of the 360 Challenge series to the "Dino Challenge". | ||
| Marv B (Mdb69)
New member Username: Mdb69 Post Number: 37 Registered: 4-2002 |
So how much $ did you lose on the race Frank? | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 567 Registered: 12-2001 |
That is not fixing the race Frank - I think you are being harsh. It is something that has been done in all series - many sports, sometimes on the sly and like in this case, in the open. It's NOT right......but who said life is fair. Jail? Come on now - We'd have all of the motorsports community behind bars. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 883 Registered: 9-2001 |
Jail is where Todt and Montezemolo both belong for fixing that race. I hope the Austrian authorities agree and investigate and prosecute them both. | ||
| Frederick Klorczyk (Fjk)
Junior Member Username: Fjk Post Number: 55 Registered: 12-2001 |
Some SF comments on www.ferrari.it on the subject. | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 463 Registered: 2-2001 |
I agree Ken. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Junior Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 171 Registered: 2-2002 |
This link will take you to a fairly comprehensive history of team orders on grandprix.com: http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ftdt047.html | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 413 Registered: 10-2001 |
To Terry and others yearning for the simpler cars: that's what NASCAR and IRL is. Low tech cars that are made as close to each other as possible. Which is fine but I like F1 and CART because it's supposed to be cutting edge innovation. New things come out of racing in the quest to do faster lap times (notice I didn't say 'speed'). The problem has been that it's become prohibitively expensive for all but the richest teams to embrace all the new innovations, so there are rules to restrict some of the latest advances to the detrement of the sport. My opinion is there should only be a few rules, like Indy used to be. Minimum weight. Pistons. Maximum fuel capacity. Four wheels. Wings should be unlimited. Active suspensions and computerized shifting? Why not? As long as a human has to drive the thing, I don't see where the competitiveness would suffer. And if you can't afford it, then get out! This is the highest level of racing in the world and it's not for the faint of heart or charity cases. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Junior Member Username: Ross Post Number: 75 Registered: 3-2002 |
i wrote an emotional note on the monday morning after, decrying the 'business' decision on the race outcome. i still stand by that, but i have read the rest of the thread and think some people are not completely accurate in their recollection of f1 history. 'team' racing has actually been the norm since the start of grand prix racing. look back through the race records and you will see countless times that one driver was ordered to give up his car, or his place in the race, to the number one or points leading driver of the moment. specifically in the case of fangio, who so many of you have held up as an example of the opposite. so, take down the rose colored rear view mirror. that being said, the reason why i still think the decision was wrong was because the championship is not really in so much danger at this point, and the pr fallout from this has/will be worse than what would happen if they lost the championship in the end anyway. rubens was the rightful winner and the team, the sport and schumi will have to live with this embarassment forever. as to the points/punishment issue, i doubt if anything happens. however, if it does, then the points should only be taken from the manufacturer, since the drivers were going to come in 1-2 in any case, and it was not their call. | ||
| david schirmer (David)
Junior Member Username: David Post Number: 233 Registered: 2-2001 |
Sometimes it is better to make the assist than to score the goal. You don't get the glory, but the goal may not occur without the assist. Rubens is a big man after this and Ferrari owes him a huge debt. Let's hope that after MS ties up the championship, the effort changes to getting Rubens some firsts. | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 462 Registered: 2-2001 |
How much closer can they race? Every race someone is running into someone else. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Junior Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 151 Registered: 8-2001 |
Funny thing!!! When Salo (then leading the race) let Irvine through in 1999 at Hockenheim to claim his victory no one gave a rats ass about it. Same scenario, a driver with no chance of winning the Championship (Salo) lets the then number one driver (Irvine) thorugh to claim the vitory and move closer to a championship. Seems a bit hypocritical since the media made no bid deal out of that race. Jon | ||
| Charles Gault (Knox_charles)
Junior Member Username: Knox_charles Post Number: 57 Registered: 8-2001 |
Terry, I agree. I believe that the new gear boxes are OK, but, if traction control was banned and wide slicks were brought back, I think that F1 would be better. With a lot more mechanical grip, the cars could get closer to each other and really race each other. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Junior Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 168 Registered: 2-2002 |
Well said Terry. I agree totally. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Junior Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 69 Registered: 4-2002 |
Yes, F1 racing has become big business pure and simple. Sure, Ferrari did the right thing given this environment and fixed the race to promote their bigger objective. And it SUCKS. The F1 I became engrossed in as a high school kid is dead and buried. No more Gilles or Keke hustling a car for everything they are worth focusing on the win at all costs. Now its team orders, massive sponsors and BIG BROTHER BERNIE. Say what you will about skill and talent and speed, but to me guys like Schumacher just dont measure up against a Clark, Moss or Fangio. Look at how many non F1 races Clark won and how many different cars he drove... and nowhere have I ever read anything that even hinted at an ego. I agree with the guys who have said F1 needs to be returned to being a SPORT, not just a business. I would love to see Ferrari stripped of all points from Austria as an example. Of coarse I would also love to see electronic traction control banned again, all steel brakes mandated, single element wings enforced and automatic gearboxes eliminated. Then give the cars big fat tires so they have tons of mechanical grip. It would be beautiful to see drivers really have to drive the car. With all the aids todays drivers have it amazes me that people think guys like Fangio or Clark are not in the same league. Actually... I agree, but in a totally different direction! | ||
| Stephen Patterson (Srpatterson)
Junior Member Username: Srpatterson Post Number: 152 Registered: 11-2001 |
F1 is a team sport. I respect Rubens for what he did. He is paid to race for Scuderia Ferrari. Rubens knows that he will not be a driver for Ferrari for very long if he disobeys the team manager. The entire team wants to win the constructors and drivers championship. That's what helps pay Rubens salary. This is no different than a backup quarterback, who doesn't throw a pass, getting a superbowl ring. It's a team effort. Saying all that, I think it's wrong. I like the one team, one driver approach. | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 461 Registered: 2-2001 |
Rubens is OUT of the hunt for the championship! That is why I would say they did what is right for the team. What does he have 6 points? And as far as people losing money by betting on Rubens. They should do their home work and know that there is a chance that he will be asked to pull over to allow the points to go to Michael. Thats why it's called gambling. | ||
| Barry Wolinsky (308gtb)
Junior Member Username: 308gtb Post Number: 101 Registered: 2-2002 |
As Nika said, "It's a part of racing." It's a part of TEAM racing. There was once a more romantic time for Grand Prix team racing. In the 1925 French Grand Prix Antonio Ascari, driving for Alfa Romeo, crashed and was killed while in the lead near the end of the race. The Alfa team was shown the black flag and the team was retired in a gesture of mourning. This occured though another Alfa team driver, Giuseppe Campari, was racing well and probably would have finished first. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 412 Registered: 10-2001 |
F1 racing is not, or should not be IMHO like the Tour De France. You cannot win the tour by yourself. You have a team of riders who sacrifice for one member to be the winner. That's the nature of the sport. F1, OTOH, can indeed be won by one driver. Ferrari is blatently saying that their goal is to make MS the champion; as pointed out earlier, the constructor points are the same when you finish 1-2 so that is a moot point. Ferrari is saying they have every right to use team tactics to favor one driver a la the Tour. Is this okay? Popular sentiment here is 'no' and we are all Ferrari fans! The only solution is to have one driver per team. SO...what are the problems with that besides actual race tactics? How would Ferrari or any team be at a disadvantage with only one car? Poorer teams would be on a more equal footing with richer I would think. Comments? | ||
| Ryanab (Ryanab)
New member Username: Ryanab Post Number: 50 Registered: 3-2002 |
So according to what you have to say, all Number 2 drivers must surrender their win? It is part of the job? Maybe at Ferrari now, But whatever happend to TEAM Ferrari?? They both race for the Prancing Horse and Rubins should have won fair and square. I always knew that it was Team Schumacher, but now this solidifies it... IMHO. RMK | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Member Username: Caribe Post Number: 305 Registered: 2-2001 |
Rich, thanks for listing the source of your information. | ||
| Richard Stephens (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 80 Registered: 10-2001 |
Arnaldo, the information about Michael being instructed to not race Rubens came directly from Ross Brawn: Q: One technical director described it as cynical, possibly fraudulent? Say some people put lot of money on Rubens to win today and Michael has taken the win? Brawn: I don't really don't want to comment on other people's opinions. We controlled the race today. We told the drivers we didn't want them racing. We told the drivers they had to cover the engine revs because they had to look after the brakes, we told them not to take any risks with back-markers. That's the nature of Formula One�, that is the nature of the business we are in. When you make that decision you make the decision to control the race thereafter. You can't tell your drivers not to race and then not be prepared to make the decision that comes after that, because Michael might come back and say 'why wasn't I allowed to race?' We didn't want to damage the equipment, we wanted to give ourselves the best chance of winning the drivers' championship. I can quite understand it is something that is going to raise a lot of opinion, but we did what we feel is right. This was taken from http://www.formula1.com | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Junior Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 149 Registered: 8-2001 |
First things, first. Ferrari originally didn't race so they could sell more cars, they sold cars (road cars) so they could race. Enzo didn't even like most of the wealthy people that bought his cars calling them "shallow and empty". He lived to do one thing build winning race cars. Ferrari's goal is to win the Championship and the sooner they can achieve that goal the better. Reubens is a nice guy and talented racer and I do feel somewhat sorry for him but the bottom line is that he is the number 2 driver and that is what he is getting paid for. Don't get me wrong he has world champion caliber talent but will never be one. To win the Championship at this level takes extreme confidence (most call it extreme arrogance or cockyness) and Reubens does not posses this. How else can you explain a driver agreeing to sign on as a number 2 and in the process admitting that he is of lesser skill. We all know Eddie Irvine was not even close to Schumacher's caliber but you would never hear him say that Michael is better or that Eddie had no chance of winning the championship. He doesn't think that way and neither do most other F1 drivers. Can you imagine Prost being asked to move over for Senna. He would have not only refused to move over I think either Senna or Prost would have been so infuriated that they would have taken out the their teamate at the last corner just to make a statement to management. BOTTOM LINE IS THIS: Schumacher made Ferrari what they are today. He brought the team together, brought in the personel and scolded the team when they made mistakes (and took the blame when he made mistakes). Ferrari was an also-ran, has-been outfit throughout most of the late 80's and early 90's trying to do battle on reputation and producing cars that were terrible. Alan Prost remarked that he couldd've have driven a French lorry faster around Mugello than his Ferrari. Alesi termed his Ferrari a "tank" that Mussolini would have been proud of but that no then current F1 driver would want to drive. Ferrari's two championships are team efforts and we can't just say Schumacher did it with his driving, but one thing is for certain, he built the "TEAM" foundation that allowed him to use hius superior skills to get Ferrari back to where they belonged after 20+ years. Rubens knows why Ferrari kept him and Ferrari knows why they signed him. He will gladly accept number 2 to drive fo the prancing horse and drive a superior car. Eddie Irvine would'nt do it, and neither would any of the other young guns who are up and coming stars in F1. Ruebens chose his fate and must live with it. Ferrari made the right decision. In the end if we win the championship there willbe other opportunites for Schumacher to move over for Reubens and return the favor. My 2 cents worth. Jon | ||
| Marv B (Mdb69)
New member Username: Mdb69 Post Number: 36 Registered: 4-2002 |
The only way to avoid this problem in the future would be to have only 1 car per team. Though f1 would have no way of filling the grid would make watching f1 even more boring if thats possible, only 6-7 cars | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Junior Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 131 Registered: 2-2001 |
I'm not in favor of this tactic in racing and agree that it should be banned. That said, it has been an accepted practice in F1 and other forms of racing for some time (didn't Michael hand Rubens a win in Suzuka?) and so Austria's result and the manner in which it was achieved should come as no grand surprise to any semi-astute individual who made a wager. Courts are better reserved for hot coffee spills and winners of Toy Yodas, IMO. | ||
| Marv B (Mdb69)
New member Username: Mdb69 Post Number: 35 Registered: 4-2002 |
Yes I do believe that you can bet on F1 in Vegas. My point is that should Ferrari and the FIA really care that someone bets on F1? Do the F1 teams get any proceeds? Thats shouldn't play into any sanctions that FIA may or may not give Ferrari. Now as to any legal questions. I don't know if this was illegal to begin with. I'd hesitate to call this fraud. Everyone knows that Michael is the #1 guy. Rubens is out of the championship race. Its pretty obvious what needs to be done from a "team aspect". Was what was done illegal? Dunno. Was it good for F1? No. Was it best for Ferrari to win a drivers championship? Probably. Personnaly i couldn't care less if some high-roller lost some cash, if they are willing to bet, they are willing to lose. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 882 Registered: 9-2001 |
Marv, gambling on F1 races is big in Europe, Latin American and Asia. In fact, I believe you can place bets on F1 racing in Vegas as well. Suppose a high roller bets $1,000,000.00 on Rubins to win with odds of say 3 to 1. This better stood to win 3,000,000.00 if Ferrari didn't fix the race. After the fix, he loses his $1,000,000.00 bet. That's a crime thats been committed by Ferrrai which needs to be punished. You can also place 1-2 type bets too such as Rubins to win with Schumi to come in 2nd for example. After the Ferrari fix that better loses a bet he would have won if Ferrari didn't cheat. | ||
| Marv B (Mdb69)
New member Username: Mdb69 Post Number: 34 Registered: 4-2002 |
Legal gambling? I don't see how that enters into the equation. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 881 Registered: 9-2001 |
I hope the FIA disqualifies Ferrari from the race and forfeits both the drivers and constructors points for the race. That's the only way that race fixing like this can be stopped. If you did that in horseracing, NFL, NBA or most other sports you would forfeit the race or game and you could go to jail. Think about what allowing this type of race fixing does to the legal gambling industry ! A lot of people may had bet a lot of money at the race window on Rubins to win and lost because of the fraud committed by Ferrari. Whoever ordered Rubins to give way should be arrested, charged and convicted in an Austrian court. And I hope they are ! | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Member Username: Caribe Post Number: 303 Registered: 2-2001 |
Rich, I do not know where you get this information that MS did not passed Rubens due to orders. My impression was that Rubens was working very hard not to get pass by anybody. I did not feel MS had the opportunity to really pass him up up to the last lap, and I think is questionable whether MS would have been able to pass him or not on that final lap. | ||
| Richard Stephens (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 79 Registered: 10-2001 |
Just remember that the team orders were in place for the whole race. Rubens started first and Michael was not allowed to "race" him. So Michael spent the whole race simply staying ahead of those behind him not trying to pass Rubens in front of him. He knew that if they were 1-2 at the end that Rubens would be asked to pull over. So he just took a sunday drive around the track all afternoon. In other words, there is no guarantee that Rubens would have stayed in front if Michael had been allowed to race with him the entire race. After all, when it was clear that Rubens would be pulling over, and Michael was therefore free to catch up to make that pass, Michael set the fastest lap of the race (and track record). He may have been capable of putting in 50 laps at that pace for all we know and been able to pass Rubens. So it is a bit wrong to say that Rubens controlled the race and the only reason he didn't win was the team orders. To the contrary, the team orders were quite possibly what kept him in 1st until the last corner. No disrepect meant to Rubens. -Rich | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 277 Registered: 3-2002 |
The only aspect I didn't really like was Michael's comment about what if "we" lose the championship by this many points. IMO, "we" means the constructors championship, and a 1-2 finish produces the same team points total regardless of team order. Obviously, the championship "we" most want to win is the driver's. While his point is essentially true, his delivery was a little questionable. | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 566 Registered: 12-2001 |
I'm disgusted - I find it horrible. Rubens deserved that win ......but the reality is, although it's not RIGHT, it's a part of racing. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 411 Registered: 10-2001 |
"Real" racing is where each racer tries his and her best to win. Sometimes rules are bent; NASCAR is famous for that in fact. But being ordered by your team to let the team mate pass is not real racing. It's theatre. Surely you must be as appalled as I am about this? How would you feel if you were told to let someone pass you because he was ahead on points? | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
Junior Member Username: Davel Post Number: 137 Registered: 7-2001 |
Back to the issue. Ferrari looks bad after this. Its caused upheavel in its own country and city. Its poor judgement and F1 has suffered indignity that could have been avoided. We can only hope something good will come of this. Like a hard look at the sport and an emphasis on competition over business. In the long run good competition brings out the best in drivers and brings out fans. No fans and no business will advertise. Sponsorship leaves and the series dies off. Mr Torres has put it best. The article I posted brings out alot of the issues involved. One item stood out in particular; "It is not going to be any easier to sell a championship in which the only driver with similar equipment to Schumacher is not going to be allowed to win until the title is decided." | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 565 Registered: 12-2001 |
Well - your comment about NASCAR being "real racing" I found hard to believe. I appreciate all forms of motorsports - I've been to them all - and there is not one series that is 100% fair and just for all drivers. Maybe "Real Racing" includes bending rules, making deals and driving fast. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 410 Registered: 10-2001 |
Nika, I shouldn't have to point out that NASCAR and F1 are fundementally different. F1 is about innovation in cars; NASCAR tries to make the cars moot and test the driver's skill. I'm not arguing which is best; just pointing out the difference. The real point isn't about NASCAR, it's about how F1 is going in a very dangerous direction. | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 564 Registered: 12-2001 |
Oh and NASCAR is fair - read the article I linked "NASCAR made a surprise announcement that racing teams using Ford and Dodge automobiles would be permitted to make modifications to their cars' spoilers to boost performance. Why are the Fords and Dodges being given special treatment? Because this year, Chevrolets are kicking asphalt on the NASCAR circuit." Be that as it may, how credible is any sport if the powers that be make rule changes in mid-season for the express purpose of "unlevelling" the playing field? Imagine if during the Super Bowl it became apparent that one football team was vastly superior to the other. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 409 Registered: 10-2001 |
Oh, so Earnhardt was "given" his Daytona victory??? That is just plain silly. Those guys would kill to win Daytona or die trying (bad joke - sorry!) so I can't see anyone 'letting' anyone win it. But comparing NASCAR to F1 is pretty pointless I admit. I just was very, very mad that the race was very publicly fixed and nothing appearantly is going to be done about it. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Member Username: Caribe Post Number: 302 Registered: 2-2001 |
Yes, I remember seen the stare from Ralf to Michael once he got off his car. It sure seemed Ralf was really disappointed at MS, and MS knew it. I personally feel very strongly abouts Rubens potential, I have expressed this openly in other threads, and this weekend proved it as a racer, a team player, and ultimately as a person. I had to seat and try to explain to my boys what the hell happened at the end of the race. This is not one of those life bigger issues, but they have grown used to the quality, mystique, and fair play that Ferrari used to evoke. The disappointment on their faces said it all to me. Winning is great, but playing fair is even better. Many F1 fans are not seating there for the business aspect of the game. Hell, they don't care, or simply don't know about it. A weekend likes this simply brings them to the realization that F1 is just one more of those tainted things money can buy. If championships can be bought, where does that leave us fans that watch it for the purity of the sport? I hope Ferrari gets disqualified and both the drivers and constructors points get taken away. The rules should be modified to restore dignity and confidence in the sport. Whether Ferrari loses the championship or not, I do not particularly care if hard work, and fair play, are not part of their top agenda. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 408 Registered: 10-2001 |
Did Waltrip admit that in the press after the race? Was it the last lap and they were running 1-2? The only other racing I remember such a thing was little AL blocking for his Dad in his final Indy 500. | ||
| G.Peters (Wfo_racer)
New member Username: Wfo_racer Post Number: 5 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ken (Allyn) Can't be a little bit pregnant. NASCAR ! Are you sober? It taught F1 how to stage a race. Earnhardt JR winning Daytona is the biggest joke to date after yesterday | ||
| Frederick Klorczyk (Fjk)
Junior Member Username: Fjk Post Number: 54 Registered: 12-2001 |
It sucked as I am sure we all agree and my young and impressionable kids didn't understand at all. But it is a business and you can't forget that. Alot of people pay alot of money to get their logo on Michael for precious seconds of worldwide TV coverage. As Michael said - just how stupid would SF look if, at the end of the year, the championship was lost by those points? And how many sponsors may go out and find a smarter and more ruthless team as a result? If Rubens was in the running for the WC at this point I suspect it would have been a true race to the checkered and the best man that day would have won. Rubens does get paid to be the number 2 driver however and he and he alone agreed to the terms of the contract. | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 560 Registered: 12-2001 |
Never happens in NASCAR?? I think not....Michael Waltrip has been in the same boat by not attempting to pass his boss Dale Earnhardt, jr. in a few races. NASCAR may just be more subtle. Here's how fair NASCAR is......"real racing...bwaaaahaahahahahah http://www.nationalpost.com/search/story.html?f=/stories/20020308/272190.html&qs=Menzies | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 407 Registered: 10-2001 |
The F1 race was a travisty. Next time anyone here puts down NASCAR I'll remind them of this...you'll NEVER see teammates let the other one win in Nascar. Never. MAYBE they'll let someone get a lap back on a yellow, but that's about it. NASCAR is real racing; F1 has become professional wrestling. | ||
| G.Peters (Wfo_racer)
New member Username: Wfo_racer Post Number: 4 Registered: 5-2002 |
The cars have two way telemetry, next time Rubens car will have a slight hiccup plain and simple. MS only does what's good for MS . Rubens could have not lifted he is partially to blame. Did anyone catch a glance of Ralf looking at his brother in parc ferme ? Speed Channel held the shot for a second and Bob Varsha commmented on it during Speed News. The look said it all, basically it was one of you cheating bastard. | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
Junior Member Username: Davel Post Number: 136 Registered: 7-2001 |
Motor racing-Ferrari's hollow victory damages Schumacher's image By Alan Baldwin LONDON (Reuters) - Sunday's Austrian Grand Prix was a race with no real winner and plenty of losers. The main casualty could be the sport itself followed closely - with boos and catcalls ringing in their ears - by glamour team Ferrari and their world champion Michael Schumacher. History will record the bare statistics that on May 12, Schumacher won the 58th race of his career to give Ferrari their 149th grand prix win. It was the German's fifth win in six races and almost certainly made his fifth world title a formality. But this was a hollow victory, a tarnished triumph because Schumacher's Brazilian team mate Rubens Barrichello was ordered by Ferrari's team leaders not to win. It took just a few seconds for the cheers to die in the throats of Ferrari fans around the world, to be replaced by jeers and cries of 'fix' as Barrichello slowed up and Schumacher took the chequered flag. Formula One, already facing claims that television viewers are becoming bored by Schumacher's relentless success, now risks turning off even more. It is not going to be any easier to sell a championship in which the only driver with similar equipment to Schumacher is not going to be allowed to win until the title is decided. At the next race in Monaco, the highlight of the motor racing calendar where overtaking is almost impossible, there will not be a lot of suspense if Schumacher qualifies on the front row with Barrichello. TAINTED VEHICLE "The Ferrari is a tainted vehicle and Formula One is no longer a sport," British great Stirling Moss declared in the Mirror newspaper. "Ferrari ruins everything," mourned Italy's Gazzetta dello Sport in a headline. "I've never seen anything like it in 14 years in this business," said Renault team boss Flavio Briatore. Williams technical director Patrick Head accused Ferrari of disgraceful cynicism. From being the mainstay of Formula One, the most evocative and passion-inspiring marque on the grid, Ferrari now stand accused of being cold and calculating. Schumacher, undoubtedly the greatest driver of his era, was booed by the same fans who normally worship the ground he walks on and his actions revived doubts, always bubbling under the surface, about his sportsmanship. As the number one, the hugely paid figurehead around whom the entire team is built and whose word carries enormous weight, Schumacher could have refused to obey orders. Many wished he had. Instead, he thought about it and then took the win when refusal might have earned him the lasting gratitude and affection of millions. Schumacher gained a victory in the only race on the calendar he had never won, completing the collection of silverware. But he could have given Formula One so much more by allowing Barrichello a rare moment in the limelight. FRESH AIR The popular Brazilian had been fastest all weekend, took pole position and would have sealed only his second win in 153 races. Ferrari justified their decision with the explanation that Formula One is a team sport and that every point could be crucial to Schumacher, who now leads the championship by 27. But purely in terms of the constructors' championship, it would have made no difference to Ferrari whether Barrichello or Schumacher won since the team would have secured 16 points either way. That point could prove important next month when Ferrari, Schumacher and Barrichello appear before the International Automobile Federation (FIA) to explain themselves. When it comes to team orders, the FIA explained its position in a note three years ago: "What is not acceptable, in the World Council's view, is any arrangement which interferes with a race and cannot be justified by the relevant team's interest in the championship," it said. Ferrari must now demonstrate that it was in their interest, even if nobody else's. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 880 Registered: 9-2001 |
I think it was one of the worst things Ferrrai could have done. With the 60 Minutes interview last week a lot of new F1 viewers no doubt tuned in to the race. And look what they saw. Ferrari should only be concerned with the Constructor's Championship and leave the Driver's alone to race. Ferrari would have received the same number of points toward the Constructor's Championship had Rubins won with Michael second. They ought to change the rules to stop this type of cheating. It is a manipulation of the points which should not be allowed IMHO. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 879 Registered: 9-2001 |
I think it was one of the worst things Ferrrai could have done. With the 60 Minutes interview last week a lot of new F1 viewers no doubt tuned in to the race. And look what they saw. Ferrari should only be concerned with the Constructor's Championship and leave the Driver's alone to race. Ferrari would have received the same number of points toward the Constructor's Championship had Rubins won with Michael second. They ought to change the rules to stop this type of cheating. It is a manipulation of the points which should not be allowed IMHO. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 696 Registered: 9-2001 |
here is Ross B answering some of the questions we have all asked http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines02/05/s9461.html | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 558 Registered: 12-2001 |
Second place...as in second driver - is STILL the first loser and Schumey is still just a paid Ferrari employee....paid to the tune of $30+ million | ||
| Marv B (Mdb69)
New member Username: Mdb69 Post Number: 31 Registered: 4-2002 |
Who cares, it's just F1. This is probably the most exciting thing that has happened in F1 in years. Its gotten to the point that I watch the first corner wreck, then turn the TV off. Much better that watching the 2 hours of follow the leader the rest of the way. No, i'm not surprised by the negative reactions, just the severity of those reactions, it's just a race people. What does it matter really? Yes, I feel bad for Rubens, he cant officially get this win, and how many chances do you think he gets to actually win? Dumb move by the team, if they really wanted Michael to win, they could have held Rubens longer in the pits (longer fueling, some sort of mechanical problem) and no one would be the wiser. | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
Junior Member Username: Davel Post Number: 135 Registered: 7-2001 |
Are you suprised by the negative reactions? Check the Italian press!! They are livid. | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
Junior Member Username: Davel Post Number: 134 Registered: 7-2001 |
The Mclaren event involved only the drivers who David has said made a pact at the beginning of the race. Yes the FIA could theoretically disqual Ferrari. Will it happen? Who knows. Ferrari wasnt open about it. They made the deal up as the race went on. They didnt tell the world they would do it. Its a given. If they are so open Todt and Brawn were not on the podium. Shame Id say. Its a mess...of their own making. | ||
| Marv B (Mdb69)
New member Username: Mdb69 Post Number: 30 Registered: 4-2002 |
Wow! All these negative reactions. It's not like this is the first time something like this has happened. It's just that Ferrari didn't do a good job of disguising it. | ||
| Jeremy Lawrence (F512m)
New member Username: F512m Post Number: 40 Registered: 1-2002 |
Hey guys, and ladies, I just went to the FIA's site and read the statement. "PRESS RELEASE 2002 AUSTRIAN GRAND PRIX Following (i) an incident during the last lap of the 2002 Austrian Grand Prix and (ii) incidents during the subsequent podium procedure, the FIA has summoned the Scuderia Ferrari Marlboro and the drivers Michael Schumacher and Rubens Barrichello to appear before the World Motor Sports Council at its next meeting, which will be held in Paris on 26 June 2002." Jeremy | ||
| Nika (Racernika)
Member Username: Racernika Post Number: 557 Registered: 12-2001 |
disqualified? I'm sorry but Coulthard did the same thing to let Hakkinen win at a race. Sure its disgusting what they did - BUT it not like it hasn't been done before! Ferrari was just open about it | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 691 Registered: 9-2001 |
I think the thing that made me most mad is Rubens dominated the whole weekend from start to finish, it would be one thing if shumi led most of the race but had a bad stop and rubens got the lead. I think MS realized this after it was over | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
Junior Member Username: Davel Post Number: 133 Registered: 7-2001 |
Im all for that if they disqual them. Its time to make something happen in F1. They are my team, yes, but they deserve some punishment. I also feel if they are going to target Ferrari the next time it happens penalties must be applied to the team that does this or something like it. The FIA has to be fair and take action on any team not just the big guy. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 690 Registered: 9-2001 |
rumors are mounting they will be disqualified - hey it will make the championship closer | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
Junior Member Username: Davel Post Number: 132 Registered: 7-2001 |
Actually FIA rules read that if a team has put the sport in shame, they can take the points away and ban the team from some races. I dont think this is going to go well for the Ferrari team given the world reaction and the reaction from some of the other team bosses. Check out the Yahoo sports section for the reaction from the European press etc and a good article on the rules the FIA can use to penalize the team. This is really worse than it looks. I dont think this will go away soon. Maybe if it was some other team, but this happend to Ferrari and they are the largest target on the scope right now. | ||
| tm328 (Tm328)
New member Username: Tm328 Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2002 |
Where was the passion and mystique that Ferrari was built on last Sunday.A car company that sells cars mainly due to its racing efforts should have made the only logical choice.Even if it meant the championship could have went to someone else by seasons end.Either way a red car would have been viewed at the end of last Sundays race.Do we think Ferrari had it so bad when they were close to winning the champoinship and didnt. To tell you the truth,it made me watch even more. Ferrari,built on passion,determination,mystique had none of that last Sunday.The only one that had it Sunday was Rubins and it was stripped away from him on the last corner,maybe never to be seen again. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 689 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ferrari have been summoned to the World Sporting council to anwswer some questions regarding the race and podium issues. Just FIA damage contol. I don't imagine something will come of it | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Junior Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 167 Registered: 2-2002 |
You can be assured that the next time this happens (and it will) it will be a botched pit stop that causes it. The outroar has been too strong to ignore. Team orders will remain, but they will be hidden, like the 'debris on the track' cautions NASCAR uses to bunch up the field. On the Racing side of this site someone said the order for Rubens to move over was a sign of fear rather than arrogance. I have to agree. They are afraid of BMW and particularily Montoya; and the F Team hierarchy is afraid of the reactions of their bosses if they come up a few points short at the end of the season. | ||
| Russ Moore (Rem9)
Junior Member Username: Rem9 Post Number: 75 Registered: 6-2001 |
The reaction of the crowd said it all, whether the booing or the thumbs down that thousands were showing, it was clear what they thought of the "team orders". What ever happened to the old days when racing was just that, racing! This was a sad day for Ferrari enthusiasts over the world. The one bright spot in the dark tunnel was Michael putting Rubins on the top podium and in the center #1 position for the later interview. Certainly he too was ashamed of what was done. It certainly would have been easier to see if in fact a pit stop problem caused the delay. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 687 Registered: 9-2001 |
what I still don't understand is what happens (God forbid) if michael misses several races - Ferrari will be dying to have those points back for Rubens. I don't have a problem with team orders but this early in the season you cannot try to fix the results - let the chips fall where they may and if help is need toward the end of the season then you do it. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Junior Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 166 Registered: 2-2002 |
Just because team orders aren't new doesn't mean they are right. Ferrari made fools of every F1 fan who sat through the race expecting to see the best man win. They made fools of Rubens and Michael in front of the whole world as well. $100+ million dollar budgets and corporate involvement have turned racing into a giant public relations tool for business. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 686 Registered: 9-2001 |
well said Ross, and I am MS's biggest fan - just terrible | ||
| Peter S�derlund /328 GTB -88 (Corsa)
Junior Member Username: Corsa Post Number: 183 Registered: 4-2001 |
What makes Austrian point less valuable than Suzuka points. Ferrari has two goals this year. 1 Win drivers Championship 2 Win Constructers Championship in that order. When #1 is achieved Michael will "give" victories to Rubens but not until he's safe. Eventually the number of wins will be correct. If it ends up that Ferrari won the Drivers with only 2 points no one will blame them for what happend yesterday. What Ferrari should have done is to •••• up Rubens last pit stop with 5 seconds and no one would complain about team order. It's the way that team order where performed that upset people Team order is nothing new. Mario Andretti was #1 in Lotus despite Ronnie Petterson was faster. McLaren have done it. It's common in RR and Rally. There is always a #1 in a team whatever the teams says. If they claim otherwise simply ask them whos set up is on the spare car and you have the answer. Ciao Peter | ||
| Julian Bowman (Julian)
New member Username: Julian Post Number: 17 Registered: 4-2002 |
At least the booing of the crowd, wiped Schumacher's usual smug grin off his face. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Junior Member Username: Ross Post Number: 74 Registered: 3-2002 |
personally i was ashamed and disgusted with ferraris choice of outcomes. i know all the 'business' arguments for the result, but as some have already said, ferrari did not cover itself in glory this weekend, despite the 1-2. imagine, if they had let rubens retain his rightful place, there wud have been jubilation as usual and michael wud still have been 23 points ahead of montoya. as it turns out, our team was booed, our drivers were ashamed, and the world is a little less proud to be a ferrari fan. its bad sportsmanship, its bad pr, and ultimately, when michael wins the world championship by much more than 4 points, it will have been bad business as well. mark my words, years from now when schumi speaks of his x number of wins, he and everyone else, will mentally discount this one from the total; and that is shameful. | ||
| G.Peters (Wfo_racer)
New member Username: Wfo_racer Post Number: 3 Registered: 5-2002 |
Par for the course with MS, remember the encounters with Damon , Jacques . MS is the team he makes the orders , he was told over the radio eight laps before the end of the race and then he claims he just heard the orders on the last lap. Total crap but what goes around comes around. The funny thing about all this is, that to the team the important thing is the Manf. Championship the driver title is secondary , per our friend President Monty. Today Ferrari joins NASCAR with it's phantom yellows. | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 459 Registered: 2-2001 |
No they won't sell more cars on Monday, but in a year or two when everyone forgets all of this Ferraris selling point will be " worldchampions 2000, 2001 and 2002". | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 458 Registered: 2-2001 |
I know I am defending what they did today and in the long run feel it was right. But I do admit when I saw Rubens pull over I said out loud "that STINKS". So I do see the other side of the coin. | ||
| C. Smith (Italianauto)
Junior Member Username: Italianauto Post Number: 77 Registered: 10-2001 |
Yes, racing is a business. But today Ferrari dropped the ball big time in a business sense. Did we gain Ferrari fans today?....no way. Are we going to sell more cars Monday because of MS "win" today....no way. Did we lose fans today not only for Ferrari but for F1 in general?...yes we did. Ferrari makes a large % of it's $$$$$ because of it's name.....people buy Ferrari licensed merchandise because of the love for the magic of the name Ferrari.....popularity wins in that department and being popular as an auto maker generates dollars. Were the big wigs there at the race partying away?....if so what in the hell were they smoking? | ||
| Charles Gault (Knox_charles)
Junior Member Username: Knox_charles Post Number: 56 Registered: 8-2001 |
Fred, of course you're right. It's all about the money. I'm not slaming you, you're merely stating the obvious. But I think fans the world over lost respect for Ferrari and their sponsers today. That said, I think that racers, even F1 drivers, still have a passion for the SPORT of racing. I do and I think that you do too. | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 454 Registered: 2-2001 |
It's a business because they put a tremendous amout of money into the sport to win world championships. They get money from sponsors based on the fact that the team will do well and get the sponsors good exsposure. The best exsposure for sponsors is world championships. I would hope that if Rubens was more in contention that he would not have been asked to move over. | ||
| Charles Gault (Knox_charles)
Junior Member Username: Knox_charles Post Number: 55 Registered: 8-2001 |
Hey Fred, Why is Racing a business? Selling cars is a business. Racing should be a sport. We have enough business in the world today. We need more individual sports where an individual can perform or not. When a person, such as Rubins, risks his life, I can tell you, it is not for business! This is a sad day for me and for what I thought Ferrari stood for. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 912 Registered: 6-2001 |
I dont get the speed channel, what happened? | ||
| Mike Fisher (Mikef)
Junior Member Username: Mikef Post Number: 65 Registered: 11-2001 |
It's not a sport anymore I guess. Just business. VERY DISAPPOINTING! Interesting that Michael gave the first place trophy to Rubens on the podium. | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 453 Registered: 2-2001 |
Racing is a business and it is about the bottome line. | ||
| Charles Gault (Knox_charles)
Junior Member Username: Knox_charles Post Number: 53 Registered: 8-2001 |
Just got finished watching Speed Chanel replay of Austrian GP. I am really, really disapointed in Ferrrari Inc. for taking the win away from Rubins. It looks like the the Ferrari PASSION lives only in some of the owners, not in Ferrari Inc. Rubins put his heart and guts on the line, Ferrari Inc. was only thinking of the bottom line, again. |