| Author | Message | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 473 Registered: 2-2001 |
F1 stands for Formula One. If is the highest most advanced form of auto racing. It is very popular, especially in europe. The current world champion is Michael Schumacher who drives for a team called "Ferrari". Hope this helps.  | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Intermediate Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 2091 Registered: 5-2001 |
WHAT IS F-1 ??? | ||
| Charles Gault (Knox_charles)
Junior Member Username: Knox_charles Post Number: 58 Registered: 8-2001 |
I have been an F1 fan for a long time. I first subscribed to Road & Track when I was 12. I'm 54 now. Also, I have raced for more than 20 years, 11 in Formula Ford. I remember or know about the events recounted by Jon in his original post. Some of these were different because they were decisions by the driver himself. The others I disagree with as much as the recent incident. Just because it has been done before dosen't make it right. When I posted my original message, I had just watched the race. My post potrayed my feelings for Rubins. It is damned hard to win a race, any race. It is especially hard to win an F1 race. Rubins won fair and square and should have been allowed to take the checker. If the Championship had been close, and Rubins had moved over on his own to let Michael win, I would have applauded Rubins. I do not think that Ferrari did anything illegal. I just think they were crass and stupid. I think that Rubins deserved better treatment than he got. I'ts true that he is well paid, but none of these guys are doing this just for the money. Don't forget, they are risking their lives. | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 292 Registered: 3-2002 |
Had Rubens' luck not been so bad this season, this issue would have flared up weeks ago. While I'm not a fan of team orders, and feel it cheats the fans, what people should really be concerned about is when another racing team will be good enough to do something about it on the track. The fact is Ferrari are so dominant, they have the luxury of positioning themselves like this. As for the rules, the FIA enjoys leaving holes in them so they may judge as they seem fit. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Junior Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 157 Registered: 8-2001 |
Frank, Thanks for the site. I read #48 and while I agree with your assesment, being a lawyer you can probably see that the rule is so vague and open ended that Ferrari can argue that this is open to interpretation. Read #170, I think this is where they are in violation of an FIA rule and that this is what they are being called upon to explain. Certainly #170 is not open to interpretation so I can see the FIA punishing them on this front, but the other rule is a gray area. Jon | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 895 Registered: 9-2001 |
Jon, I couldn't find the exact regulation but see FIA Sporting Regulation #48 at www.fia.com .Everyone would have to agree that Ferrari is in violation of it. | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Junior Member Username: Manu Post Number: 248 Registered: 2-2002 |
Jon, your original post says it all. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Junior Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 156 Registered: 8-2001 |
Frank, The FIA has called a meeting to discuss the podium ceremony and the drivers meeting in which Ruebens sat in Mickael's spot as well as Ferrari not having a representative to accept the manufacturer's trophy. The team orders seem to be less concern to them. As for "competing each lap" how do you explain slower cars and drivers pointing others by. I seem to recall McNish pointing Reubens and Michael by as well as Montoya all on the same lap. I have never seen anything in the FIA rules pertaining to how hard one must "compete" (though I have not read the entire rule book). The other point I would like to make is this. There has been a lot of talk about this event tarnishing Schumacher's reputation and legacy. Well can you imagine if Reubens was leading the race and Schumacher's car broke down and Schumi ran to the pits and told Todt, "...call Reubens in and tell him to get out the car....I am driving his car NOW!!" And so Reubens comes in thinking he is pitting for new tires leading, the race at this point and Michael says "..get out your the number 2 driver, and get yourself a cup of coffee, I need your car." And low and below Schumacher ends up winning the race and the World Championship in Reuben's car in the last race of the season. Think it's far fetched. This is how Fangio won a World Championship and no one seems to think less of him because it. Those of you that remarked Schumacher should not be mentioned in the same breath as Fangio are hypocrits!! The other thing to consider is that most of the drivers themselves have either been silent on the subject or voiced their support of Schumacher (Irvine, Ralph, DC, even JV). And low and behold Ron Denis who has never ever missed an opportunity to take a big swipe at Ferrari is completely silent on the issue (gee, Ron could it have something to do with all those "first corner" agreements between DC and Hakkinen). Only Jackie Stewart has come out and publicly blasted Ferrari and Schumacher. And as for Enzo's morality and fairness, please give me a break. Talk to anyone who drove for him and you'll understand why most drivers who drove for him felt like just another employee at Ferrari. Ferrari treated his drivers terribly bad and gave no thought whatsoever to their welbeing. He is known to have remarked on at least several occasions "..drivers are disposable, we can always hire an new one.." Many feel that he pushed the limits and put many of his drivers in extreme danger for one purpose, to win the Championship at all costs. During one five year stretch in the 50's five drivers were killed in his cars and it is rumored that he refused to even pay the remaining years salaries to each driver's family. Hell, he even had the FIA cancel a season ending race one year so that the Cobra's couldn't gain enough points to take the Championship from Ferrari. Should Ferrari have lost this years Championship by three points and Reubens not pulled over he would really have been turning in his grave! Regards, Jon | ||
| izel k (Ferrarist)
New member Username: Ferrarist Post Number: 17 Registered: 3-2001 |
This is team order and has been Scuderia Ferrari's tactic for years... Of course they don't want Schumi to lose the world champion title in the last race one more time. Certainly right decision. Forza Ferrari! | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 893 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ernesto, I'm not sure what Ferrari did, while tolerated in the past, IS legal within the FIA rules. I suppose that is why the FIA has summoned Ferrari to Paris to explain. It is my understanding that the FIA rules require a driver, absent a medical condition which developes after the start, to "compete" each lap of the race to be eligible for points. Allowing another driver to pass you does not meet the definition of "compete" IMHO. We'll see what the FIA and Austrian authorities do. This ain't over yet ! | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Junior Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 70 Registered: 4-2002 |
What if Rubens DOES continue to outperform Shumi? | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 378 Registered: 2-2001 |
Umm... Frank... are you comparing team orders in a SPORT with murder and rape? One is a crime, the other is LEGAL within that sport, and has been so since the 50's. Makes no sense.... Anyway, Ferrari want the DRIVER's title first and foremost... that is where the bragging rights are! So, what they did, although unpopular and ill-conceived, what RIGHT in terms of achieving the championship. I do feel sorry for Rubens... I hope he continues to outperform Schumi... Ernesto | ||
| Marv B (Mdb69)
New member Username: Mdb69 Post Number: 39 Registered: 4-2002 |
The Constructor's Championship isn't Ferrari's main priority really. No one remembers who won the Constructor's Championship 10 years ago do they? The public, advertisers, and the media focus on the drivers championship so that takes priority. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 890 Registered: 9-2001 |
The point most people seem to be missing is that Ferrari would have still received the maximun 16 points in the Constructor's Championship even if it had let Rubins win. That is all Ferrari should be concerned with anyway. Why should a team be allowed to manipulate a race's results for any reason ! | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Junior Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 136 Registered: 2-2001 |
At stressful times such as this, I often ask myself what my hero (aside from Enzo, of course), who happens to be The Rock, would have done to mask a pre-determined result. When Luca, Ross and the other F1 murderers get chucked in the klink (or excommunicated?), maybe Vince McMahon can step in and clean things up. Meanwhile, sorta tough to feel too sorry for Rubens. There are worse gigs (no heavy lifting for Rubens, right). He's a big boy who's well aware of what he signed on for and is no doubt pleased that he's pretty much running the pace at this point. Might be a racer or two who wouldn't mine cashing a check for being Ferrari's Coulthard. Anyway, suppose there's an outside chance that F1 might just survive this debacle? | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 420 Registered: 6-2001 |
It's the money that has made this the way it is. Since Ferrari spends over 200 million per year, it HAS to win the championship to retain the sponsorship, and I'm sure that there are bonus clauses in those agreements. When a single small manufacturer could sponsor a team (like Ferrari did in the 50s and 60s) there was a lot less of this. Now all teams must place well to ensure that their sponsorship for next year continues. F1 has always been a big thing, however it hasn't always been so expensive. It costs 10 times more to run a F1 car (between 80 to 110 per car per season) than an Indy car (between 9 to 13 million per season), yet the average spectator can't tell the difference, and I bet that the lap times are less than 2% different. I'm sorry for Rubens, hopefully, he will get his chance with Ferrari someday. The worse would be that they don't feature him when Schumacher is gone or not in contention. He has clearly developed into a great driver in his own right and he should have the opportunity to make a run at the championship. Art | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 889 Registered: 9-2001 |
People have been murdering, raping and robbing each other for a long time too. That doesn't make it the right thing to do now does it ? | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Junior Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 155 Registered: 8-2001 |
"not the most deft manuever"!! In 1991 Senna was so far ahead of his Austrian team mate Berger that had the race gone on another 5-10 laps he would have lapped the entire field. Senna had to chop nearly 20 seconds off his last lap and slow the pace down for the previous 4 laps. At least in this case Schumacher was on the same pace as Reubens for the entire race. In Senna's case he made it obvious to everyone that he was incontrol and that he was "gifting" the win to Berger who was way off the pace. I fell sorry for Reubens as he seems to be real nice guy but let's face it you are not going to win the F1 Championship being nice. I think the public outcry is a great testament to Rueben's popularity. Let's face it no one likes "big-mouth" Irvine and had he done the same when at Ferrari I doubt it would have caused such a furor! It's getting way out of hand folks! Get over it!! Regards, Jon | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 374 Registered: 2-2001 |
Again, it was nothing that hadn't been done before. While I agree that is was in bad taste and that Rubens deserved the win, team orders are just part of the game. Hiding the orders by passing in other places would just be an insult to seasoned fans. If they were gonna do it, they did it the right way - out in the open! Ernesto | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Junior Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 135 Registered: 2-2001 |
It seems a few fans in Austria, some of whom might have nearly as much F1 "experience" as a seasoned Ferrarichat contributor, were a bit upset by the race result and the manner in which it was achieved. Handing the race over after the last corner of the last lap of the race is perhaps not the most deft manuever if putting on an exciting show is even a small part of the plan. Maybe if Ferrari had selected a less obvious moment for Michael's "pass" to take place, fewer feathers would have been ruffled. | ||
| Warren Dodge (Spiderman)
New member Username: Spiderman Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2001 |
It seems that the only ones whining here(and in all of the other threads on this same dead issue) are the ones that have only seen a handfull of races. Those of us that have followed the sport for decades have seen this happen over and over again. It is part of the politics that is F1. Accept it and love the sport for what it is. Don't accept it ? Don't watch ! CART and IRL has a spot for you. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Junior Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 177 Registered: 2-2002 |
Gee, I haven't seen many people saying that team orders didn't exist before last weekend. F-1 was not a major sport until Ecclestone came along. It wasn't until the big money and television ratings that outsiders started paying attention. If anything, this is a sign that F-1 has attracted the world's attention. Maybe life in the big time also means living up to a higher standard or accepting the consequences. I don't think that Ferrari is solely responsible for ruining the sport. Mc Laren or Williams could have done the same thing. Ferrari, in some ways, was just in the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong decision. The sport as a whole has to figure out how to balance business objectives and sporting objectives. BTW, Enzo Ferrari was never above manipulating the sport for his own good. Back in the Sixties, when sports car racing was as important as F1, Ferrari had the final race of the season cancelled so that Cobra couldn't amass enough points to win the Manufacturer's Championship. | ||
| John Moretti (Moretti)
New member Username: Moretti Post Number: 21 Registered: 11-2001 |
despite the nice post to let the newbies to F1 know the score, it doesn't make it right that races are given away to people who don't deserve it, which is why I think Fangio wasn't so great a driver, more a great opportunist. Nuvolari was the greatest driver of all time as he did things in cars that had NO chance in all forms of motor racing and for those that are too young or inexperienced to know who he was, go nad do a search on Tazio and you will see that this little man was without peer and if he was here today would be showing Schu and the others a few tricks to be used in these F1 go karts. Peter Collins gave Fangio his Ferrari in '54 I think so that Fangio could win the championship even though he could have won it by refusing to give the car to Fangio, and he unfortunately died the next year so he should have taken his shot while he had it. I think Rubens should have kept his shot too as this swapping winners at the end of races is wrong. | ||
| Andrew (Mrrou)
Member Username: Mrrou Post Number: 297 Registered: 3-2002 |
guys honestly i know nothing about ferrari racing except that ferrari is still making victories..and i still love ferrari's despite my racing experience..or lack thereof it is something i am still embarassed to say...thats why u guys havent seen my posts in the racing section | ||
| Scott Anderson (Srandrsn)
Junior Member Username: Srandrsn Post Number: 115 Registered: 4-2001 |
Those are good points but for me in this case it just feels different some how. Salo was clearly a "fill-in" driver and I'm sure he knew the limitations of that. When MS pulled over for eddie, it was at the end of the season and it had not ramifications for MS. I guess I and others just like Rubens...I feel for the guy. Yes he's the #2 driver and he knows that, but I just feel like with the combination of all his bad luck this year and how he just seems to make you feel like winning means so much to him that they took something away from him personally. I don't quite know how to elaborate on it but when he won for the first time I can still see him on the podium crying his eyes out. When eddie was the #2 and pulled over for MS it was just like "okay thats what he's supposed to do" and there wasn't much in the way of "feelings" about it. But for Rubens it just seems that this opportuity to drive for Ferrari means so much more to him that it has to others (that could very well be off base) but taking it away from him just has more of a "personal" ovetone than it having to do with his #2 drive status, or team orders. IMHO | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 285 Registered: 3-2002 |
Good post, Jon. In particular, the point that had this not been Ferrari there probably wouldn't be any issue. I get the feeling that a lot of the reaction stems from the monotony F1 fans are feeling from the domination of one team and one driver. I don't think it's in the best interest of F1, but it's Ferrari's team to do with as they choose. The FIA intentionally writes its rules in a nebulous fashion, and situations like this are the result. It will be interesting to see how they interpret their own rules this time. | ||
| Norman Aiello (Aiello)
New member Username: Aiello Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2002 |
Yes, good post ... well said. Barrichello and Schumacher followed their team orders. Yes, they are both competitive, but they need the Team to win. Ferrari is running on all cylinders. | ||
| Robert Jude Klein (Rjklein4470)
Junior Member Username: Rjklein4470 Post Number: 84 Registered: 3-2002 |
Nice post, I must say that I was dissapointed for Rubens only. Having said that he knows his place on the team, and gets paid well I might add. Other than that it was just a team decision. R | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 467 Registered: 2-2001 |
Good post! | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Junior Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 154 Registered: 8-2001 |
Thought I start a fresh thread. While the debacle at Austria has turned into a PR nightmare for Ferrari and has left a bad taste in many peoples minds, most on this board seem to be new to F1 and the media seems to have a short memory. Yeah it's getting a bit out of hand! What's next, the Pope requesting a meeting with Todt and Schumacher. the ironic part is that had it happened (and it has read below) with any other team other than the Ferrari it would be a non-event. Apparently many people on this board are new to F1 or have very short memories. Case in Point: 1) Schumacher moved over for Irvine at Sepeng in 99' to allow him to fight for the championship. 2) Salo did the same at Hockenheim (and gave up his first victory) in 99' for Irvine. 3) 1998 David Coulthard handing over to allow Mika Hakkinen to win the season opener according to a pre-race agreement between the drivers. 4) At the end of the 1997 season, there was a controversy involving allegations of collusion between McLaren and Williams. Canadian Jacques Villeneuve, in a Williams, was fighting Schumacher for the title in the final race of the season while McLaren were out of contention. Once Schumacher went out of the race, Villeneuve for whom third place was enough to be champion - allowed the McLarens to finish first and second. 5) In 1991, Ayrton Senna made a particularly blatant gesture in Japan in favour of his Austrian teammate Gerhard Berger while at McLaren. Senna, who slowed on the last lap, was repaying Berger for his hard work in helping the Brazilian win the title but he made it abundantly clear who was in control of the race. Gerhard Berger said that the result was "unfair and very, very wrong" - but I did not hear him complaining at Suzuka 1991 - when Senna moved over to let Berger win, in the same fashion 6) Twenty years ago, there was a notorious incident involving Ferrari when Frenchman Didier Pironi reneged on a verbal agreement with Gilles Villeneuve and overtook the Canadian to win at Imola. 7) Argentine Carlos Reutemann also famously ignored team orders when at Williams in 1981, refusing to allow Australian Alan Jones past in Brazil. 8) Nobody complained when Moss won at Aintree in 1957 by jumping into Tony Brooks' car on the 18th lap. And more recently, nobody flinched when Colin McRae earned his first points in this year's Rally Championship via team orders. 9) Two or three years ago, Barry Green in the CART Championship refused to issue Team orders to Paul Tracy to let Dario Francitti by for the win. This was in a very tight championship race and only two or three races from the end. After the final race, Dario was level on points with JPM and lost on the number of wins. You are free to disagree with Ferrari's orders but don't acuse them of ruining the sport (or business as some of you term it) because it has been going on for years. Regards, Jon P. Kofod |