| Author | Message | ||
| Vince (Manatee)
Member Username: Manatee Post Number: 419 Registered: 6-2002 |
John, any news on the Cumming track club ? | ||
| Vince (Manatee)
Junior Member Username: Manatee Post Number: 176 Registered: 6-2002 |
Frank, isn't it called I-16 ??? LOL | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2048 Registered: 9-2001 |
It is my understanding that there is a race track neighborhood near Savannah. Each home has a road that leads to the track and they can use it when they want. The homeowners pay a large fee when they buy the home and monthly fee just like a golf neighborhood. While i have never seen it, I was told about it by a fellow FCA member at an event in Savannah. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4158 Registered: 12-2000 |
Hey now!  Eazy what you say about the rottaries, mine might be able to hear you talking. | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 371 Registered: 8-2002 |
I agree with you about that exhaust noise! | ||
| John Delvac (Johndelvac)
Member Username: Johndelvac Post Number: 291 Registered: 11-2001 |
My dream is to buy some cheap land in North Georgia and put a track around/near my home (but not too near). I would set it up like TGPR on a pay as you come basis. Ferraris would get first priority of course. Monthly Ferrari club events would be almost free (besides insurance). Now here is a variation of my dream: A few of us Ferrari nuts all build our houses around a track with access from our own garages(like some airplane folks do with private runways). Considering that we would be in BumPhuck, Georgia, who is in? I'll tell you what, I would never allow an unmufflered RX7 at my home. The one that was at TGPR a couple of weeks ago was the worst sounding thing I ever heard. | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 370 Registered: 8-2002 |
"TGPR" is "Talladega Grand Prix Raceway" -- their website is at www.tgprace.com | ||
| John Delvac (Johndelvac)
Member Username: Johndelvac Post Number: 290 Registered: 11-2001 |
TGPR is Talladega Grand Prix Raceway. The New GA track does not have a name. We call it Forsyth County Track for now. I will defintly call the new track guy and give him the results of this survey. Mitch - They don't want real racing events. Just drivin' fast. RA has kinda' turned into a manufaturing vehicle test facility, spectator sport and racing school facility. What we need is a place where folks can just go & drive. | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
Member Username: 4re308 Post Number: 801 Registered: 6-2001 |
Too rich for my blood! Just seems to close to Road Atlanta to bring any real teams or events. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 915 Registered: 5-2001 |
I thought you were referring to the track over here in Alabama. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4145 Registered: 12-2000 |
I assume TGPR is the new track in Georgia? All the information I have is from the success of the MSR track in DFW. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 912 Registered: 5-2001 |
Rob - How do you know so much about TGPR? | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 4142 Registered: 12-2000 |
Under their current business plan TGPR is not going to make it. Not even close. Jack Farr with MSR has been somewhat successful. Here are the keys to his success... 1) Very close to the huge DFW metroplex area. 2) Cheap cost of entry $2,400. 3) Awesome 1.7 mile track with 1.5 mile extension this year (3 mile combined or two tracks). 4) Multiple race related businesses on site. 5) Extensive garage rentals. 6) Rents track out one month a weekend to organizations. Big money! For $30k they don't have a chance to make it. The average member only drives 2 days a month. The track can handle 4 run groups with 20 in each. That's 80 people a day. With apx. 10 member days a month that's a capacity of about 400 members. They'll be better off having a business plan more similar to MSR. After 2-3 years proof of their success is all the new expansion planned. You're more likely to get members with a low cost of entry, but sustained monthly costs vs. all up front. Would you trust someone else to manage your $30k over the future of the track? You need a sustaining cash flow. Only about 10% of tracks that are planned actually get completed. It's just a hobby site of mine, but I've been trying to compile a list and history of all the existing and past road tracks in the U.S.. www.roadtracks.com Also, here's an in car video of me doing a lap at MSR, it's a fun track! http://www.spec7.org/videos/MSR1_29_5lap2002.mpg | ||
| John Delvac (Johndelvac)
Member Username: Johndelvac Post Number: 288 Registered: 11-2001 |
The original idea was actually motocross. I totally agree with Terry on the business plan. I budget projects for financing like this one blindfolded. Now, if the forgot about the lease deal and put up the land as colateral, then they would have over 20% equity (50 acres x $20K/acre minimum = $1 million). They only need $150 for their $750K plan. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 909 Registered: 5-2001 |
That reminds me, I can ALWAYS make time to join up with ya'll on a track rental if someone gets the sudden urge. Keep me in mind for future reference just in case. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 908 Registered: 5-2001 |
For 30K I'm O-U-T. For me to even consider spending that much I would at least expect it to be at my disposal, like a country club pool. But even with that option (which I can't afford anyway) I would have to drive the car to death to get something for my money. I would end up needing the 30K back for an engine rebuild. Not to mention that I would also have to pass the Barber Track and TigPrix on the way. I'll be more then happy to go in with you guys whenever you want to split the fees for a weekend or something but as far as coughing up 30K, no way. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 2044 Registered: 9-2001 |
I too live in Forsyth county less than 5 miles from the proposed track. I had heard that is was being built as a police driving center that would be available for car club track events when not being used for various law enforcement training. . I suppose the information I heard could have been wrong ? | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 417 Registered: 4-2002 |
This sounds great, and as I live in Forsyth county I would love it.... but I would lay a wager it never happens. It just doesnt sound like these guys have any money nor a viable business plan that will raise the money. I'm no pro... but it would also seem something like $1.5m is more realistic to prep and pave a really high quality 1.5 mile track. I know for a fact there is no way I would pony up $30K... up front, for a track that does not yet exist. Or for any track actually. I would however jump on the "Regular" membership show for the motorsportranch. Whatever pricing schedule is decided on, it must either be very cheap so individuals can join, or it must allow the larger car clubs in and thus allow all members in for reduced fees and frequent track days. I believe the BMW, Porsche, Ferrari, SCCA, HSR, and many other regional clubs would probably pony up $30K each to be such members. However I doubt there are enough such clubs to raise the required money.... and if there are too many clubs there wont be enough track days to divide. This deal is going to need financing and a real solid business plan to make it work.... | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 368 Registered: 8-2002 |
John: Yeah, but at TGPR we have 5 hours of more of driving at the same -- or actually less than -- the $20/halfhour rate that the "ranch" charges, and we don't have any monthly fees nor a big initiation fee. | ||
| John Delvac (Johndelvac)
Member Username: Johndelvac Post Number: 287 Registered: 11-2001 |
"Forsyth" rejected a 2-tier plan like "The Ranch". Although it sounds like "The Ranch" has a much better plan (especially better for me). It looks like a club like FCA-SE would be able to do a corporate membership and allow all of us to drive for $25 a year (450 members with about 40 who care about the track). However, with only 50 $12K memberships, thats only $600K. They said they needed $750K up front to build the track. As I price construction for a living, I think that is a very low budjet. Too low. They don't have drawings yet except for a track layout. | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 367 Registered: 8-2002 |
Mitch, that's interesting! (www.MotorSportRanch.com) Executive initiation fee: $12,000 (one time only) Executive monthly dues: $50 Executive half-hour run session: $15 Regular initiation fee: $2,400 (one time only) Regular monthly dues: $75 Regular half-hour run session: $20 Guest Privileges: Executive/ Regular Maximum number of guests that a member is allowed to have at the facility (per month): 100 / 10 Maximum number of driving guests per month: 10 / 1 Maximum number of guest driving sessions per visit: 4 / 2 Maximum times a guest driver may drive per year: 4 / 2 | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 366 Registered: 8-2002 |
Thinking out loud... Track rental for TGPR is $1500 to $2500 for a weekend day, though when I first started going there 10 years ago it was between $600 and $1000 for a weekend day, but they've upgraded the factilities and the track a little since then. In any case, for that amount of money, we can have from 10 to 25 cars participating, which makes a day at the track $200 per person or less even after other costs such as liability insurance and/or ambulance on site. TGPR is just under 1.5 mile in length, so we're talking about the same size, though your new track may be wider. Then you've got the new Barber track outside of Birmingham, now touted as perhaps the "best" roadcourse in North America. Track rental is $10,000-$15,000 for a weekend day, but there's really no limit to the number of cars you can have participate, you just don't want more than 20 cars on the track at a time. Or you can rent it on a weekday for around $5,000. Again, costs for the day per car would be just a few hundred dollars depending on your group size. I personally wouldn't consider paying $30,000 for a "membership" at a track, even if playtime there after that was free, UNLESS it was a corporate or club type membership, and there would be no charge for any of your group members for subsequent playtime. But still, in that case, it would be equivalent to 150 to 200 participants over time at TGPR. Doing what we do 2 or 3 times a year there would still take at least 4 years to "make" your money back if you charged our club members track use fee. So... for useful ideas? Unless FCA or FoA wanted to buy a membership and amortize it out over 3 or more years to break even from fees, this setup is NOT for the "little guys", but for serious race teams, car manufacturers or similar organizations. If they want to "compete" with a track like TGPR, which is low cost, flexible, informal, etc, they'll have to be able to charge similar rates and allow similar group rentals. One weekend a month probably won't do it. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 421 Registered: 4-2002 |
I suggest the owners/operators look at the MotorSports Ranch operation in Texas. There are two kinds of members, with different voting rights, and different monthly and track use fees. You might be able to work out some sort of deal where we could run that track and vice versa just like real golf course memberships.... Good luck | ||
| John Delvac (Johndelvac)
Member Username: Johndelvac Post Number: 285 Registered: 11-2001 |
On Tuesday, I had a very long talk with the future general manager of a planned race track in Cumming, GA (Forsyth County). The track will be located at the intersection of Haw Creek and Old Atlanta Road (East of 400 and just South of Baptist Medical Center @ GA HWY 20). I have been to the 50 acre site, which is across the street from the concrete batch plant. I think it is a great location. The Forsyth Co. commission has already re-zoned the property to allow this track to exist(day use only). They plan to lease the land from one of the partners and build a 1.5 mile road course with 100 vertical feet of elevation change. They plan a safe track with minimal guard-rail placed only on some strait-away spots (near other parts of the course). There will be plenty of run-off area. These folks are very familiar with Road Atlanta and do not wish to have all of the car-crunching walls RA has. The business plan is to lease the property. I repeat myself because this gives them no equity from which to leverage. They plan to sell about 200 memberships and create a "country club" for racers. On one (1) Saturday a month, the track will be rented to car clubs. No food svc, no big spectator facilities, no pool, golf or residential development. There will be "stables" for one to keep a car on premise and a staff mechanic for maintenance (speed shop). There will also be a "pro shop" with the kind of' stuff sold from RacerWholesale.com. They also somehow plan to incorporate shifter carts into the mix (remember no league nights - day use only). They were asking me what I thought. My first question was "how much?". $30,000.00 for initiation fee with a much smaller annual fee! Holy crap! They might as well have said $30 million. I told them one or two F-Challenge guys in the area may do it, but no one else. However, I talked to a couple of real racing teams I'm building some buildings for who said this price was a bargain for what they spend at Road Atlanta in a year. And that it would be nice not to have to plan your testing around track reservations scheduled 1.5 years earlier. Maybe FOA would join, maybe the Ford Plant. But, this sounds like the same-ole to me. Big dollar folks, corporations and testing folks as the only members, and visitors. That's not a country club (or is it?). High dollar golf club members are able to write-off their memberships and expenses as "entertainment" since they legitimately use golf as way and place to conduct business. Individuals and non-auto corporations can not do this for a race track. How could you entertain anyone besides yourself there? I talked to another person VERY familiar with racing (fellow FerrariChatter). He pointed out that two or three guys can rent VIR, Robling Road and Talladega GP multi-times a year for far less money. The manager & I spoke about several other pricing options I came up with. It sounds like they need to get this up-front capital just to build the thing due to the lack of equity. I suggested just renting it out. But again, this gives them no money to build it. The GM asked me to ask all of you guys what you thought. He wants to know if any of you have constructive ideas and how many of you have $30K for initial membership. Let's give him some constructive ideas here so we can have a track for all of us to use economically. John W. Delvac |