| Author | Message | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Junior Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 58 Registered: 1-2002 |
I look at it another way. Ferrari makes 3 different models in very limited numbers. If they spent the money designing, perfecting and testing every part like mainstream manufacturers, these cars would cost millions each! So, you could pay millions up front, or tens of thousands as you go. Like many here, I keep looking for a cheaper alternative that would be as much fun to own. So far, I've come up empty. I've tried a number of performance cars, but none have been as much fun to drive or to look at as even the slowest 308. If maintenence costs will keep you from sending your kids to college, sell the dam thing! Otherwise, stop whining! Drive and be happy! My 2 cents. Dave | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (4retom)
New member Username: 4retom Post Number: 1 Registered: 3-2002 |
I guess being a mechanic who works on these cars on a daily basis has it's advantages with ownership. You must keep in mind that Ferrari is a very small car manufacturer and they use parts from other car companies,mainly Fiat. The cost of owning a 308,328,Mondial can in many ways be more reasonable than owning a newer BMW or M-Benz or even a new Corvette. I noticed many of you talking about water pump problems on the 2v,4v cars. This is a problem that can be fixed by simply having your exsisting water pump rebuilt by a good rebuild shop in you aera. You don't have to go to a Ferrari dealer and spend $700 on a new pump when your rebuilt pump will last just as long. I have customers say the pump I got rebuilt for them has lasted longer than 2 new Ferrari pumps have! With these cars you have to do your oil changes,tune-ups,timing belts,etc and most of all drive the darn thing! The more thier driven the better they performe,and the less chance they will break down on you at the gas station.(how embarassing). | ||
| Allen Cook (Alcook62)
New member Username: Alcook62 Post Number: 8 Registered: 3-2002 |
I don't really know if my 308 is reliable or not. I have had it only about six weeks. I am having a major service performed right now (timing belts etc...). Having done much prior research I knew before I purchased this car that it would require much more maintenance then a "normal" car. BUT I DON'T CARE!!! It is a Ferrari for goodness sake! I have had the Vette, the hi/po convertible 5.0 Mustang, The 383 Dodge Charger, all of which would blow the Ferrari off the track, BUT, none of these stir my blood like my 308. By the way, I believe preventative maintenace is the key to anything mechanical. An ounce of prevention etc... I do know that my 24yo Ferrari is a much more solid car than the C4 Vette. The Vette rattles like a tin can full of marbles while the Ferrari is solid. | ||
| J Dirk Carnahan (Dirk989)
New member Username: Dirk989 Post Number: 24 Registered: 9-2001 |
I love my 308. You are right about image, romance, etc. being a selling point. But, reliability is a bad rap. Most of the reliability problems you hear about are on 15, 20 or 30 year old cars. Or cars that sit for a major portion of their lives. It isn't uncommon for someone on this site to think that driving their Ferrari 5,000 miles per year is a lot. Just the opposite. 5,000 miles isn't nearly enough. When cars sit for weeks, months or years they react the same way that you or I do when we sit around too much. I intentionally bought a 308 with high miles on it. I drive it a lot. Not a lot 'for a Ferrari.' A lot for any car. 20,000 miles per year is closer to my average. And the thing runs better every day. I've had Vettes too. They weren't 25 years old either and didn't hold up to the driving I do anyway. The unreliability knock also comes from guys who know how to drive, but give little or no thought to crawling into their own engine bay. Not knocking somebody like that, but it leads to problems when you have a Ferrari. These are wonderful pieces of art/machinery, but need a little more care than the 4 door Buick. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Junior Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 69 Registered: 1-2002 |
Ah, remember the old adage: In Heaven, the Italians are the lovers, the Germans are the mechanics, the British are the police, the Swiss are the bankers, and the French are the cooks. In Hell, the Italians are the bankers, the Germans are the police, the British are the cooks, the Swiss are the lovers, and the French are the mechanics. | ||
| Allen Shelley (Allen_97_993)
New member Username: Allen_97_993 Post Number: 3 Registered: 3-2002 |
There is no way to justify owning a Ferrari; or Porsche for that matter, using the normal criteria for owning a car. It is absolutley an emotional driven choice...that's it. I don't own a Porsche because it's reliable...I'm glad it is, but that never came into the equation. I know I can get more performance in a cheaper car. But I CAN'T get the feeling in those cheaper cars that I get when I drive the Porsche...or when I wash it, or wax it, or just look at it! I love my car because of the way it makes me FEEL...that would be emotions. Personally, I am sure I could get that same emotional charge from a Ferrari, which is why I'm here. I KNOW they are expensive to maintain, I KNOW they may need repairs from time to time...but I STILL want one! No rational reason whatsoever. I may decide I can't afford what I want (based on the required maintenance, etc.), but I'm not going to get a Corvette just because I can't afford a 355...thanks, but I can wait! | ||
| Mark (Study)
Junior Member Username: Study Post Number: 197 Registered: 10-2001 |
the lighter side I like to think of it this way German people- way too serious, great engineers�.but I cant think of a good German Comedian. Japanese people- way too careful, great engineers� but I can't think of a society that is more concerned with conformity Italian people- way too sexy, half-ass engineers�but I can't think of a woman that ever complained that I didn't show her a wild time. So its not an issue of did Ferrari's engineers go to a "Party college" instead of a serous engineering school. They did (figurtivly speaking). Come on guys 30k major service?? 100k has been the benchmark since the 1990's. I think we are all guilty of buying cars that reflect the subtle cultural flares of the people that made them. Reminds me of a famous movie joke- Jewish guy looks at a black man and complains that he WISHED he had those stereotypes "good in bed, great at sports, and good at dancing"� he joked "doesn't sound like a bad rap when you really think about it  Just be glad Ferrari never got into the medical devices industry. LOL | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
New member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 7 Registered: 3-2002 |
Richelson, I think you are reading things wrong. I say this because of your comment to me to not buy a ferrari and to instead drive a chevy. I cant figure out why you said this since I never said I did not want a ferrari. The last thing I am doing is trying to tarnish Ferraris in general. This post was made to figure out the reasons for why Ferraris seem to have many problems in general. I will definitely own a ferrari in the future(hence my handle). I think what has been learned from this is that it may just be a matter of economics to Ferrari. The demand is there. Why spend money to change when cars are being sold with 2 year waiting lists. ---John P.S.S. I would also rather push a ferrari than drive my old vette! | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Junior Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 237 Registered: 11-2001 |
Hear is the problem people, it's called don't fix it till it's broke. I'm not talking about the car, I'm talking about Ferrari the company. It seems that Ferrari thinks it is dumb to build a reliable car when they can get the same money for building an unreliable one? As long as people continue to buy them and accept them that way it won't change. Ferrari works backwards as compaired to other manufactures. Ferrari builds cars to financially support their race team. The big three, GM, Ford, and Chrysler, even Honda and Toyota, race the to sell cars. Also to test the cars they make at an extream level, in order to make the customer cars better. Ferrari tests to make the race car better not the customer car. The only time Ferrari has made the road car better is when their reputation is at stake. Take the F40 and F50. The F40 was built to beat the 959 as ultimate super car. The F50 was built because the McLaren F1 was dominating sports car racing and held the title of ultimate sports car. Even now the only reason the cars have the horse power they do, is because they are in jepoardy of being knocked out of the high performance club. When you own a Ferrari you own more than just a car. You own an image. I have had people tell me I look like a movie or rock star in my car. I have been asked if I am rich, or if I won the lottery. You even get a little bit of fame as "the guy with the Ferrari". Image is the most powerful marketing tool they have. Ferrari sells you an image, performance and looks. Until that image is tarnished because the cars are unreliable and cost too much to repair, don't expect Ferrari to fix the problem until it looks like they'll go broke. Ernie | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 255 Registered: 10-2001 |
I know I could have bought a much better car for the money I put in, and will continue to put into my car (308 GT4). But as was mentioned, we buy Ferraris for the passion that the name instills in us. Yes a Honda s2000 may be faster and more reliable than a 308, sure a new Vette has lots of HP, yes a Viper has gobbs of torque....bottom line is they are not Ferraris. I disagree that you must have a speciallized mechanic work on a Ferrari. The principles are the same whether it is a Ferrari or Honda. The problem is that not everyone that is a "mechanic" is qualified to work on cars. Some mechanics should not even work on Lada's. You end up inheriting all of the cars problems over the last 20-30 years and all of the bad mechanics workmanship also. For example, when I bought my car the previous owner got a rebuild on the engine. When I bought the car I had it opened up and checked. Sure enough it was done correctly, but it was mounted to the tranny which had not been touched! The original Seals were hard as rock, oil sludge inches thick. They were going to run that new engine on that old tranny. Bottom line...don't cheap out. Spend the money to do it right or don't do it at all. The majority of work can be done by the average do it yourselfer, if I can, anyone can. | ||
| joe saldana (Ironjoe)
New member Username: Ironjoe Post Number: 38 Registered: 12-2001 |
TO GuYS,and PETER GT4,Ahh.YES. You hit it right on the nose,THE KEY is their former racing motors,free mechanics,free parts,free crew.It is IMPERITAVE to any FERRARI owner.dont have it serviced,after the fact.DO PREVENTIVE MAINTAINENCE.....Something so simple as to EVERY-SINGLE-TIME you go to drive. (enjoy) your car.first non-chalantly look for leaks,get in fire up,IMEADIATLY LISTEN for unuasual sounds,SIT THERE CHECK GUAGES RELIGIOUSLY.GET AMMETER.MECHANICAL OIL PRESSURE GUAGE AND WATER TEMP.MOST IMPORTANT TO FERRARI ENGINE LIFE.a PRELUBER....so many people underestimate the importance of pre-start lubrication.especially if you have WEBBER washing machines on top.IVE had over 60 or 70 cars,including over 10 P-cars with monster HP.(yes they are truly reliable)English cars are more finicky.the only thing my F-car needs now is the trunk-mounted Painless-Wiring Harness, because I know in the future the ELECTRICAL GREMLINS only come out at night,mostly when your on your way to an important event.... | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Junior Member Username: Doody Post Number: 111 Registered: 11-2001 |
purchasing a ferrari has very little to do with money. putting your savings into a ferrari is a stupid thing to do! it's not a good investment in general. it's a car. everybody has a BPC for their cars. if the financial end of the transaction is at the top of your list, look elsewhere. these things are stupid-expensive and pricey to maintain. if you want the best reliability with the highest performance for your money, go buy a used 996TT (IMO). if you want the cheapest car with the best performance, go buy a Z06. they'll both put grins on your face. there is NO WAY to rationally justify the purchase of a ferrari IMO. no way. we are basically morons with more money than brains, IMNSHO. it is an irrational exercise. every ferrari is outperformed today by cars that cost substantialy less. every ferrari has higher operating and maintenance costs than cars that outperform it hands-down. but here we are nonetheless :-) people ask me all the time how i can justify owning a 355 - especially since my other (also stupid) car outperforms, outhandles, outvalues, and outreliables (how's that for a new word!) it seven ways to sunday. the answer is "i can't", but i'm damn pleased i did it! it makes me happy, and in the end, life is short so happiness counts a lot. doody. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
New member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 45 Registered: 2-2002 |
This has been a great exchange. I'm impressed with the passion Manu and others have expressed (even though I ribbed him a bit about it!). Someone made an excellent point. Many of the cars we talk about here are decades old. Apparently, Ferrari's from the sixties needed complete engine rebuilds (at a cost of about $25k) after only 25,000 miles. Those days are long gone. When the NSX came out in the early nineties it sent shockwaves through Maranello and they stepped up to the plate. The 355 was a huge improvement (in quality and creature comfort) over the 348 and the 360 made a similar leap over the 355. Will they ever have Honda-level quality? No, thank God! And they won't have Honda-level passion either. They will be far superior, and that's why we buy them and put up with any problems that arise. Debates on other strings about F-Car SUV's (F-SUV'S?) and theme parks are a sure sign that Ferrari has overcome much of their quality issues and moved on to other things. Maybe quality should suffer a little so that they'll direct their attention back to sports cars and away from casinos. | ||
| Richelson (Richelson)
Member Username: Richelson Post Number: 643 Registered: 12-2001 |
John, here is an idea. Don't buy a Ferrari. Save your money drive your Chevy and enjoy. If you don't want one than don't buy one. I find the build quality of a Vette to have little to be desired. This is my opinion. I would also rather have a 360. | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
New member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 6 Registered: 3-2002 |
Ok, I hear that complex machines need complex attention. Even though every new "entry level Ferrari" exceeds the performance of the other, you can get a well over 400 hp corvette that handles as well as, and accelerates as well as a 360( or damn well close to it) for $50,000. Even though the production for a 360 reaches well under 7,500(in the long-run)units, I still find it unreal that F-cars that cost over $135,000 can not completely unmatch the quality of a chevy. Sure, exclusiveness is for people wanting a specific look in a car(that people want to make sure they are original). Other than appearance, I can;t see any reason for Ferrari to get with it and make these cars more trouble-free. ---John Correct me if I am way off base here | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 1720 Registered: 12-2000 |
Don't kid yourself, using the 308 engine as an example, these motors are basicallly a de-tuned racing motor. Look at its design and specs: nice long, straight polished ports, big valves, carb throat-per-intake, Toothed-belt DOHC, long duration cams, etc... a long list. Then take a look at some of Ferrari's F1 motors of that same time period, or others like a Cosworth DFV... Not much difference... Compare the 308 to some other road car of the '70's, huge difference! Although the 308 is quite tractable around town, its also a serious piece of kit... Complex machines need complex attention. | ||
| NGSVDO (Azspider)
New member Username: Azspider Post Number: 44 Registered: 6-2001 |
Sure the car cost a lot to maintain.On the other hand if i revved my Lexus up to 10,000 rpm I would be buying a new engine! | ||
| Daniel B Reese MD (Dbr328gtb)
Junior Member Username: Dbr328gtb Post Number: 86 Registered: 5-2001 |
Bret, I think your right. I tolerate alot of imperfections in my daily driver that I dont tolerate in my Ferrari. At least 50% of what I do to my Ferrari I wouldnt do with my other cars( not to mention standing on my Durango to change a light bulb in my garage!). The work/cost of maintaining a Ferrari is what keeps the riffraff away from them. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2033 Registered: 2-2001 |
And Ferrari does engineer unreliability, it's a side effect of performance. For lack of a better description, they're always trying to fit 16 eggs into a case made to hold 12. It causes problems. The key is to stay on top of things, if you let something go a whole bunch of other problems will quickly accumulate. Staying on top is why you'll get guys with great histories, not marked with break downs etc. I sound so negative here, I'm really not trying to be, it's just a car that requires a little attention. What you put into it though is nowhere near how much you get out. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Intermediate Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2032 Registered: 2-2001 |
Ferraris are a high maintenance car. If I had to do as much stuff to keep the jeep running I would've burned it to the ground a long time ago in an angry rage. Ferraris can be reliable though, they just require a lot of work. Anyone that tells you they aren't work either 1) hasn't owned their car long enough or 2) is lying. I can tell you it is well worth it though. If you aren't into making everything perfect you can cut the work down to like 1/4 of what it would be to do it right. Unfortunately I seem to have a thing with perfection so I am stuck with working forever, but it'll all look nice when I'm done hopefully. | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Junior Member Username: Manu Post Number: 102 Registered: 2-2002 |
Guys - I'm obviously not saying that Ferrari engineer unreliablity into their cars - all I'm saying is that when a car looks, goes, sounds and feels like a Ferrari does then those who appreciate these qualities will forgive the car anything.... Admittedly a mega service bill will have you reaching for the nearest cyanide tablets but its almost as if we expect them to break down on us and cost us money and that just endears them to us further - its such a human trait to be fallible and that's just one of the many reasons why we love Ferraris. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Intermediate Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 1620 Registered: 5-2001 |
I drive my 348 an average of 6000 Miles a year. No more like 7000. I do not have any big reliability issues. The car starts in the morning, when I go to lunch and in the eve when I go home. Had never had it crank out on me, leave me stranded except when I overfilled the oil earrly on. I vbelieve that if you buy a car that is/was a driver you have no problems with reliability. The problem is that most people keep their cars stored. Big mistake! If you buy a 1983 car with only 16K Miles, that is less than 1000 Miles per year. What do you expect? The most overstated fact, buy a F with low miles. That is what you get. A nice looking car with loads of crap that needs to be fixed. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Junior Member Username: Doody Post Number: 110 Registered: 11-2001 |
they really do seem to be getting better with every new model and even every new model year. remember, we're not going to hear here of the large percentage of people who've never had real problems. ferrari's history is a racing history. ever hear of a race car without a crew? nope. neither had enzo. you can't compare them to porsche. richelson's points about volume is totally correct IMO. while the 996TT production might be on the same order of magnitude as the 360 production, there's a HUGE pump of non-TT 996s that paved the way (with serious bumps along the road, including more entire engine replacements than PAG would like to admit wiith the first MY 996s). as for 308s and the like, i'm not one iota surprised - and i don't think any reader here should be either. you're talking about OLD cars, folks. their ages are measured in decades now. entropy happens. you can't stop it. it's not just a factor of miles --- you can't ignore time in the equation. IMO, ferrari really didn't much care about maintainability until rather recently. all that mattered was performance and style. when they had their near death experience 15-20 years ago (?) it looks like they seemed to "get religion" (well, as much as a company with a history like ferrari could). it's been a long tough road for them to get from there to where they are today (and where they still need to go), and i'm sure the old timers in the factory have a very different workday experience than they did in the 1970s. hopefully they will continue to build better and more reliable cars - i see no reason to think they won't. doody | ||
| Richelson (Richelson)
Member Username: Richelson Post Number: 642 Registered: 12-2001 |
Well, I don't know what the specifics are of your friends car but we are talking about a very limited production car and they don't make a million to get every little thing right. I have seen Fords that need engines replaced with 1000 miles on them. Now they built literally millions of cars. I think that is unacceptable. I am not sure what to tell you. My 308 is more reasonable than my other car. It is fun to work on. If this isn't what you are looking for then there are many other cars on the market and for less money. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
New member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 44 Registered: 2-2002 |
You're right Manu, that does sound silly...(-: | ||
| Edwin F Herr lll (Letsgofst)
Junior Member Username: Letsgofst Post Number: 53 Registered: 9-2001 |
Id have to say that it is the nature of the beast. Here is an example-----A friend has a 328 GTS which has 70,000 miles. Now you say that is a lot of mileage for a Ferrari. I say that for the price of the car and the amount of time and money spent on servicing that 70,000 miles should be nothing. Now the car has developed engine problems which were never forseen by all the professionals who cared for the car. Incidentally, this car was never tracked or abused and the exterior/interior are both immaculate. Cost for repairs????? Approx. $17,500 to $22,500. Now, when you get one of these estimates, what do you do? This is the second similar nightmare I have heard. You wouldn't/shouldn't except this from a premier motorcar. Would anyone tolerate this from a Rolex? | ||
| Erin Patrick Pierce (Fulmina)
New member Username: Fulmina Post Number: 2 Registered: 3-2002 |
Good points all around. I think John is right about our cars in general--there do seem to be many expensive issues that come up with Ferrari's. I have only owned my car since November and I have already had to spend nearly $5,000.00 on "routine" service. I didn't buy a lemon either, I had a mechanic go over the thing before I bought it and I was assured it was in excellent shape. My 308QV had been driven only 16,000 miles since 1983 and looked like it had been in climate controlled storage the rest of the time. Furthermore, I read several books on what to look for when purchasing F-cars and had friends with experience advising me on which cars I should look at. In the end, I even flew across the country to see my perfect car and inspect it in person before having it shipped home. My car made it abot 300 miles before it needed to be pushed (water pump). After that the money started to leave my account on the car's behalf. I have owned 4 aircraft (3 PA-28's... a 180, 140, 160, and a Buccaneer B2B exper.) and I NEVER had anything bleed me dry like this fricken car! (that I love anyway, incidentally) My question to you all is this, Is it just my crappy luck? How much do you average spending on service per month? | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
New member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 5 Registered: 3-2002 |
Manu, Hmmmmm. I think that is probably the best/most optimistic response yet. Maybe Ferrari has this in the back of their heads when designing their cars. ---John | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Junior Member Username: Manu Post Number: 101 Registered: 2-2002 |
It sounds sooo silly but the unreliability of Ferraris just adds to how romantic owning one is.... This unreliablity weeds out the poseurs - it gets rid of the rich show offs, removes the collectors who NEVER drive their cars, eliminates the bad drivers; it removes those who just want the next step up from a Porsche. The guys that remain, after all the problems and temperamental behaviour, are the committed Ferraristi - the guys who value 'emotion' in their driving - the guys who value passion and place it above outright function..... Think carefully for minute about the phrase: "I would still rather push a Ferrari than drive ANYTHING else" and it all makes perfect sense. | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
New member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 4 Registered: 3-2002 |
Thanks so far for the responses. I forgot to mention that my daily driver for a year and a half was a 2000 Corvette hardtop. I absolutely raped and abused that car to no end and the only big problem I had was a blown clutch at 20,000 miles. Other than that I would have small things happen like a window not rolling down(or back up!!!). It doenst make sense to me how some of these cars have leak problems when it rains. That is absurd. Keep em comin'. ---John | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
Member Username: Bobd Post Number: 299 Registered: 3-2001 |
Don't forget, most of the service issues you read about here are on cars which are approaching 15-25 years of age. Try driving a Chevy that long without problems... or a P-car... or even a Toyota. You really don't hear about that many service related issues on the newer F-cars. | ||
| Mark C. Gordon (Markg)
Junior Member Username: Markg Post Number: 144 Registered: 2-2001 |
I drove my 'P'car ('69S) daily for 10 years with zero problems, just routine maintnance, 10 years of which cost less than a water pump for my 308. I never had to push the P car but have had to push the 'F' car (bad fuses, typical). I think a fair amount of F car problems stem from lack of use;I know the more I drive mine the better it runs! The other problems are just poor design or workmanship - bad fuse blocks, poorly designed window lifts, door lock issues etc. ... Few other manufaturer's cars would need new brakes, clutches, belts, water pumps, window motors, fuse blocks, PDUs'etc. at 30K miles, but this seems to be the norm for our cars! Even so, I will keep mine for a while longer ... | ||
| Richelson (Richelson)
Member Username: Richelson Post Number: 641 Registered: 12-2001 |
I think many people cut corners on servicing and when they service some will do the minimum to kee their cars running. Plus, many Ferraris sit most of their lives. If you let any car sit too long it will give you trouble. Many people do drive them very hard as well. As with any low production car they don't always get everything perfect. I think my 308 is very reliable. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 562 Registered: 6-2001 |
I think you hit the nail on the head. People will still buy ferraris despite their shortcommings in the reliability department. I think that one reason they are less reliable is because most owners drive the crap out of them, like they are supposed to. In all fairness, they arent THAT unreliable, especially the new ones. If you want a reliable fast car go with the Z06, thats what i'd do. | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
New member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 3 Registered: 3-2002 |
I have been reading up on this forum, as well as other sources, and it seems like most f-cars have expensive troubles seemingly on a regular basis. At least more so than say a Porsche. Why does Ferrari allow this to happen? Is it because they figure their clientele will not mind paying for the problems since ferrari is the ultimate marquis? I understand that parts are limited and that not too many people know how to work on these cars, yet it just seems to be too much. Opinions? ---John P.S. I would still rather push a ferrari than drive ANYTHING else! |