| Author | Message | ||
| OTC Tour (Otchallenge)
New member Username: Otchallenge Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2001 |
Sorry for the blast from the past post bump, but I have a few thoughts. One Lap is somewhat to a competitor to us, but I'll try to be objective as possible. Why do I think a Ferrari hasn't done well at One Lap? There is no real interest among F-car owners towards the core activity of the event....endless hours of highway miles with intermittent track events. This is the same reason we see no F-car interest in our Touring Division. What does that week 6,000 miles do to your average F-car resale value? It's already an expensive event to run, but throw in a week of serious depreciation and consumables and it just isn't very attractive to most. We saw one Ferrari at our event last year and it was Amir Rosenbaum's gorgeous F40. He did quite well and the damn thing stayed together for a week of constant track time in the desert heat. Our environment is much more demanding than One Lap and Amir's Ferrari was among the more reliable entries. Our Ferrari contingent will almost always choose to run in our Unlimited Division for the week. Why? Because at the end of the track day, you can throw it on the trailer and haul ass to the next track, thereby keeping the odometer somewhat in check. The Unlimited Division interest also stems from the fact that there seems to be two distinct groups of Ferrari track enthusiasts. Those who dip into the addiction a couple times of year and those who go apeshit. The latter group of enthusiasts cars generally aren't street legal anymore...or at least not in the sense that anyone would want to cover 6000 miles in it. So, what you end up with is the occasional enthusiast taking a street car with relatively little track experience against the One Lap regulars who usually finish in the Top 15. Not really indicative of the potential of the car. We seem to attract the other side of the spectrum...folks willing to beat the hell out of beautiful cars and throw endless amounts of money into chasing victory. After reading Brock Sr's proclimation last year that no Ferrari could finish in the Top spots at his event, I made him a bet....that none of his former or current competitors could break the Top 5 at our event. And they didn't. Most of the folks who have done OTC and One Lap will agree. One Lap tests the ability of the drivers to battle fatigue better than any other event. Kind of like Hell Week in college (or the military). Our event more specificly tests the hardware over a week (about 20 times the seat time and rarely a day with ambient track temps under 100 degrees). Lap time comparisons between drivers of both events really doesn't speak to the quality of the One Lap field either, but that's another discussion... In closing, it's a catch-22 for F-car drivers. The bait Brock is dangling is not by which you are being judged against. If he really wants to see a test of the car itself, he'd be better off sending you folks to OTC or any number of other events which better reflect a car's ability. BP Director, OTC www.opentrackchallenge.com | ||
| George Daina (Oof_n_goof)
Junior Member Username: Oof_n_goof Post Number: 83 Registered: 7-2002 |
Hehehehehehehe....i could probably do well, collect the 5 grand, stoop down, leave a dump oh his shoes, and wipe my butt with his 5K, and toss what remains in the air and walk away | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1232 Registered: 2-2001 |
Brock owned a 250 Lusso way back in the 60s or 70s. He's a dweeb | ||
| Jim E (Jimpo1)
Member Username: Jimpo1 Post Number: 655 Registered: 7-2001 |
As I recall Yates wrote a book about Enzo a few years back and David E. Davis wrote a column about it in Automobile. Davis essentially said the book was a POS. Yates got pissed and the two didn't speak for years after being good friends. The $5k Yates has 'on the table' for a Ferrari that finishes top 3 in his little ego race wouldn't cover the gas for the event. Big deal. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Junior Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 177 Registered: 4-2002 |
I have to wonder if he owned a Ferrari years ago and sold it only to learn to his chagrin that it became extremely valuable years later. Regarding his appearance, race ipsa loquitor. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1231 Registered: 2-2001 |
I wrote to CD complaining about Brock's column. We'll see if they print it, What an assswipe | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Junior Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 114 Registered: 8-2002 |
Okay gents, I saw Brock Yates yesterday at the Monterey Historic Races and was going to question him about his article. Suddenly I realized: I've never actually read the article! Standing next to Yates was Bob Lutz. I figured that, without the facts, I was about to be torn to shreads by two foreign car haters in front of a crowd of onlookers. I decided it was time for lunch. | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Junior Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 193 Registered: 4-2002 |
George, they might ask that, but you can get them for many, many thousands off of MSRP. Maxi Price Chevy for example has three 2003's for 4k off MSRP (zo6's) | ||
| George Daina (Oof_n_goof)
Junior Member Username: Oof_n_goof Post Number: 74 Registered: 7-2002 |
Subaru....uh....just another ricer, you know the kind, the wild chrome rear tail lights, the big rear spoiler, the neon lights under the frame, oh yea forgot, the nean outline one the license plate......, oh yea, the most imoportant element of the ricer...the trunk filled with speakers, amps, and miles of monster cable....hehehehe | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 596 Registered: 2-2001 |
Hey, the Subaru's fit and finish is better than any Chevy's, and some Caddies... LOL Subaru has a HUGE name is racing, and the WRX is world famous for being super fast. This is not a new phenomenon. Now THERE is a car... | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1824 Registered: 2-2001 |
Even worse than that is there are Freakin Subarus that are almost as quick as anything produced. People are going to have to start getting rid of stereotypes and buy the "machine" and not the "name". | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 595 Registered: 2-2001 |
LOL | ||
| George Daina (Oof_n_goof)
Junior Member Username: Oof_n_goof Post Number: 69 Registered: 7-2002 |
Ernesto, in days to come, you and I will have some fun together. Nothin' like chating with another that has a dry sense of humor..... | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 594 Registered: 2-2001 |
Yeah.. its certainly worth the $75K in a heartbeat! Ernesto | ||
| George Daina (Oof_n_goof)
Junior Member Username: Oof_n_goof Post Number: 67 Registered: 7-2002 |
nah...75K....ain't it great? And what a Chevy it is. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 593 Registered: 2-2001 |
So what is it? $65K for Chevy? Damn... Incredible. Ernesto | ||
| George Daina (Oof_n_goof)
Junior Member Username: Oof_n_goof Post Number: 65 Registered: 7-2002 |
Yestrday a friend was out cruising the dealerships near Sacramento. He stumbled across John Sullivan's Chevrolet in Roseville at the AutoMall. They have an 03 Z06 (50th Anny) with a "Market Adjustment" of and you might want to sit down for this........ . . . . . . . . . . $24,000 That on top of the sticker price So much for the discounted prices | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1815 Registered: 2-2001 |
I will never use another name. Exactly when have I ever been afraid to speak my mind under my own name? | ||
| Guibo (Guibo)
New member Username: Guibo Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2002 |
You'd be surprised how often I'm called Guido.  David: Nope, I'm not Ed (Edward Gault?). I go by this name on a few other forums. Ernesto: Your personal experience is not in question. With the old Z06, it's going to be so close in a straightline that driver skill can make the difference. Terry: Yes, Yates should have mentioned the Diablo that finished well in '99. If you guys check out the results for this year's race, you'll see the Diablo did extremely well on the dirt track oval, of all places. Finished 3rd, I believe, ahead of some cars you'd figure should've clinched it (Skyline, AWD Subaru, Audi S4 Quattro, etc.). Gotta give that Lambo guy some props for running. | ||
| George Daina (Oof_n_goof)
Junior Member Username: Oof_n_goof Post Number: 59 Registered: 7-2002 |
Guibo, shouldn't you be Guido? HEHEHEHEHE | ||
| George Daina (Oof_n_goof)
Junior Member Username: Oof_n_goof Post Number: 58 Registered: 7-2002 |
Well, it certainly is not Ernesto....hey, leave Ed alone, Ed's a good guy, besides, Ed made a wise choice buying the C5...it boiled down to the C5 and the 308 QV, and if I hadn't the 68 Vette in the garage, the C5 would be parked there instead of the 308. Besides, one rocket sled on wheels is enough for me. | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 95 Registered: 9-2001 |
Guibo, You are correct. I am sorry, I read the article a few times and quoted him as saying Lambo had never finished better than 10th. When in reality he did not. I only realized my error after your post. The paragraph reads: "Moreover, although several other car magazines would have you believe that Ferraris and Lamborghinis are the ne plus ultra of fast road cars, a look at the results of both these events reveals that the potency of those exotics is seriously overhyped. Not one of them appeared for the Supercar Challenge, and not a single Ferrari in the nearly two-decade history of One Lap has ever finished in the top 25. This year, a well-prepared, well-driven Lamborghini Diablo struggled to finish 10th, mainly because boulevard-style brakes were not up to the task of hauling down the 3600-pound cruiser for slow corners. Said the owner after the finish, "We brought a jackknife to a gun fight." And I do think that to be accurate he should have mentioned the Lamborghini 2nd place in 1999, but of course then his article would be less effective. Without bashing a marque with the passion of Ferrari no one would be still talking about his article or the one lap. I had never heard of the one lap until this article and now I am interested in next years results. I doubt that a Ferrari will be entered, and if one is I don't expect it to finish very high unless it is entered by a driver that has driven the One Lap before. Looking briefly at the results of the last few years the winners are often vetran One Lappers, much like the Virginia City Hill Climb. This is really kind of stupid for me to be defending such an accomplished race car manufacturer and I will from now on take this kind of egging-on as just that. The numerous Championships and world records stand on their own and one race or series does not define all motor racing. Ferrari will win some and lose some, but in the end Ferrari will still be the top dog for me, because of Enzo, his passion and soul defines Ferrari for me. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 591 Registered: 2-2001 |
Guibo, I was trying to differentiate between magazine numbers and what I have experienced on the street. All I can say is what I have seen, not what magazines say. Ernesto | ||
| David White (Dwhite)
Junior Member Username: Dwhite Post Number: 51 Registered: 7-2002 |
Ed(Guibo) is that you under a non plumb? | ||
| Guibo (Guibo)
New member Username: Guibo Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2002 |
Greetings, all. Some things to keep in mind: 1) Yates never said that 10th place was the highest a Lamborghini has ever finished. 2) He forgot about Amir Rosenbaum's modified F40 which competed in the inaugural Open Track Challenge (and which has clinched the VC Hillclimb title this year as mentioned earlier). If Yates wants to bring the One Lap to the west coast, he'll probably find trouble against that car. 3) When driven by drivers of commensurate skill levels, the Z06 will slowly creep away from the 360 Modena on the straights (except at top speed, where the Modena has about a 10-15 mph advantage). Compare MT's 1/4-mile to 1-mile times (in head-to-head comparison) and C&D's 100-150 times for these two cars. The current 405-hp Z06 is pretty impressive in this regard. 4) On a racetrack, the Z06 will keep pace with the Modena, when drivers are of commensurate skill level. R&T's January '01 issue found the 385-hp Z06 slower by .74 second on a 2.5-mile road course, Thunderhill Park. Steve Millen was at the wheel of both cars. Automobile Magazine's 385-hp Z06 was tested against the Modena, 996 Turbo, and Z8 at Waterford Hills. It beat all of them. Sport Auto's Hockenheim test numbers indicate their 385-hp Z06 was .2 second quicker than the Modena. In case anyone hasn't seen it yet, here's the column: http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/columns/2002/september/200209_columns_yates.xml | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1220 Registered: 9-2001 |
About 1/2 of what I post is designed to elicit a rise out of the readers. The other 1/2 is mostly crap. I hold no ill feelings toward anyone on this site. I'm just having fun. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 590 Registered: 2-2001 |
OK, Frank, you edited your post. Congrats! Anyway, I hold no ill will towards you on a personal level, and I hope that it is reciprocal. None of this is personal. It is only that I get a little fed up when you constantly critisize my beloved 360 Dino. Ernesto | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1219 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ernesto, What e-mail are you referring to ? Didn't I say "post " ? And I have never said in any of my posts that I didn't like the 360. I have only said that I didn't like the way it looked especially the front end. I understand that it is a fine Dino/V8 that performs almost as well as the Z06 and M5. Except, the M5 is more comfortable and sits more and holds more cargo and has a better fit and finish and both the M5 and Z06 are much less expensive to maintain. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 589 Registered: 2-2001 |
I never e-mailed you Frank, so I don't know what e-mail you are talking about. Regarding the insults, your constant and continuos insults to the 360 whenever the subject is brought up is well documented on this site's history, as well as with the other 360 owners here. Dont try to cover it up now. Ernesto | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1218 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ernesto, I don't see in your post where you said anything negative about what I drive ? And why do you consider comparing the looks of a 360 to a Nissan or other Japanese car an insult ? Nissans as well as other Japanese brands are very popular and sell millions around the world. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 587 Registered: 2-2001 |
OK! Frank you certainly have a BIG problem. You can come here on this site and insult the 360 every opportunity you get, of which there are many owners to witness that here, and that is supposed to be OK. But, God forbid anybody says anything negative about whatever you happen to drive! I suggest if you have some sort of inferiority complex you dont take it out on anybody else. Dont dish it out if you cant take the same medicine. My 29 years of experience tells me that those who constantly and continiously put down other people or their things are jealous. Ernesto | ||
| James Dixon (Omnadren250)
Member Username: Omnadren250 Post Number: 271 Registered: 7-2001 |
uh oh..... Here we go again | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1216 Registered: 9-2001 |
Ernesto, Its been my over 45 year experience that he who braggs the most often performs the least. And, I do care as I love my M5 it being my third M car so far. And owning a Pathfinder sounds pretty stupid to me ! But then again you own that Nissan/Japanese looking 360 so I guess they go together well. | ||
| George Daina (Oof_n_goof)
Junior Member Username: Oof_n_goof Post Number: 51 Registered: 7-2002 |
Hmmmm...Ernesto...all I read under your penmanship...I beat this and I beat that by a wide margin....seems you are bragging...say it ain't so, Ernesto. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 583 Registered: 2-2001 |
I really dont care which is faster with four passengers. I am not going to drive fast with three other people in the car, that sounds pretty stupid to me. When I go out with more people, I take my Pathfinder or E320. When I want to DRIVE, I leave my the four-door family cars at home. Ernesto | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1803 Registered: 2-2001 |
No one around here is giving that much off on a 2003. You can get that on a leftover 2002 and 0% financing. | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Junior Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 192 Registered: 4-2002 |
Edward, MSRP is no bases as you can buy one for $5k+ off new. Something is only worth (and costs) what you can get one for / what someone will pay for it. I hope you did not pay MSRP. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1798 Registered: 2-2001 |
http://www.chevrolet.com/corvette/index.htm Here is the Chevy site with models and prices. Since all Sports cars should be open air then there is really only one model of the Corvette for me and it is plenty fast enough for any human to be going. | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Junior Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 191 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ernesto, I have never driven or raced a F1 360, thus I will have to take your word on that. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1215 Registered: 9-2001 |
But, my M5 is faster with four passengers aboard that either the 360 or Z06. The driver of the 360 and Z06 wold be so cramped up that he couldn't even shift a stick or F1 shifter. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 582 Registered: 2-2001 |
Mitchell, the F1 is A LOT faster than the manual 360. I have raced a manual 360 (one of only two in Puerto Rico), and I beat it by an even bigger margin than I beat Z06 Vettes. Most of this is driver input, I am sure, but the Z06 owners I raced were no slouches at the wheel. George, bring on any Vette, and I will race them with my Supra. It wont even be funny, we can roll at about 75 and take it all the way up to 180+. Listen, I dont want this to become one of the many heated "braggin rights" discussions we have had here. All I said is that on paper there an M5 is supposed to be just as fast as a 360, and a Z06 much faster, but the reality I have seen is that it isnt so. Ernesto | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1222 Registered: 2-2001 |
Then Brock goes on to disparage my hero Hef, founder & President of Playboy. I cant believe Yates had the gaul to call the Playboy Mansion a seedy joint. I mean thats a serious break with reality. Its like saying the Eifel Tower is a nice Christmas Ornament. WTF is wrong with u Brock ? | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Junior Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 190 Registered: 4-2002 |
Edward, the convertable is not the base model vette. The performance model, the z06, is just over 50k and can be had for $5k off sticker. The Vette coupe can be had new for 40k. Ernesto, we have both cars in my group of friends and the 360 (6spd, non-spider) has never won a race with the z06, even when they switched drivers. However, like I said, who cares? | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1792 Registered: 2-2001 |
The Corvette that did the 0 to 60 in 1.97 seconds was a Ligenfelter modified car. There have been several airings on Speed channel showing the car compared with an F/A 18 jet. John Forces Funny car will do 0 to 325 in 4.7 seconds. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Junior Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 224 Registered: 4-2002 |
On the street is less about the car and more about the driver. Not skill, but who is nuts enough to push the hardest or risk the ticket the most. Put them on the track... thats the test. I wonder how a stock 360 stands up to a ZO6 on the track? I dont see any corvette (or any other street car for that matter) doing 0-60 in under 2 sec. That would be Formula 1 like times. 1200lb car with 900hp and traction control. Even the fastest of the fast superbikes only do low to mid 2 seconds. | ||
| George Daina (Oof_n_goof)
New member Username: Oof_n_goof Post Number: 48 Registered: 7-2002 |
Ernesto....you wouldn't be braggin' now would ya? Be careful, else someone in a relic vette, with a 6,000.00 motor pumping 613 RWH just might look ya up and blow you into the dust. Now that would be embarrasing. | ||
| Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Junior Member Username: Tork1966 Post Number: 228 Registered: 7-2001 |
I still say Yates looks like Fat Bastard. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 578 Registered: 2-2001 |
A sports car where the top wont come down? Oh, I don't know.. I may love an F40 or Enzo, or maybe a 288GTO.. or a McLaren F1.. or an F50GT.. Ernesto | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1787 Registered: 2-2001 |
Mitch, you need to check your Vette pricing again. The window sticker on my 2003 Corvette Convertible has a base price of $49,700. With the 1SB equipment package of $1200.00, and polished wheels $1295.00, 6 Speed trans $915.00, Performance handling package $395.00, body side mouldings $150.00 and front license frame cover $15.00 and shipping $670.00. the price I paid was $54340.00. The FRC may be obtainable for less but who would want a Sports Car that the top won't come down. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 577 Registered: 2-2001 |
I have raced two Z06 Vettes on the street, and have beat them both handily in my 360. My 360 has the Tubi and filters, but so did one of the Z06's. On paper is one thing, on the street in real life is another. Same with the M5. On paper (and magazines) it is supposed to be able to keep up with a 360. In reality, it is not even close. Ernesto | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Junior Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 189 Registered: 4-2002 |
Edward, the z06 is the $50,000 corvette. The stock C5 can be had for low 40's. Also, the z06 is streel legal and over 20% of corvettes sold. Thus, very fair. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1783 Registered: 2-2001 |
I was comparing the stock Corvette not the Z-06. I wanted to keep it a fair comparison without bringing in race versions. I think there is an aftermarket Corvette modification that goes 0 to 60 in less than 2 seconds. | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 91 Registered: 9-2001 |
David, you are right, it is just one man's (maybe more) opinion and it is a comentary. I probably am more bothered than I should be. I would think that someone would check the facts before they make such statements (about Lambo anyway). I do reallize that Yates probably was just trying to get this kind of reaction and I fell for it. I was just trying to point out the inaccuracies in his supporting statements. The fact maybe that Ferrari has done poorly in the one lap for over 18 years, but a clarifier is appropriate that in those 18 years all of 4 Ferraris have participated and in the last 9 years only one, a 17 year old car. | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Junior Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 188 Registered: 4-2002 |
Just wanted to correct Ed, the Z06 is -faster- than the Modena from 0 - 60, 0 - 100 and 0 - 150. But who cares? | ||
| David White (Dwhite)
New member Username: Dwhite Post Number: 47 Registered: 7-2002 |
One thing to clarify, Yates is a columnist not a reporter. He gets paid to write a column stating his opinion, not necessarily facts. He is also someone who is looking to be somewhat controversial. Yates can be funny and witty why get so bothered by one man's opinion. | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 90 Registered: 9-2001 |
Funny that you mention hill climbs, as a Ferrari F40 just set a new record at the Virginia City Hill Climb. A statement of Fact would be that we really don't know how a Ferrari would fair in such an event (one Lap) because we have not seen a modern Ferrari enter in years. I have never been to the VC hill climbs, but I do remember seeing pictures and usually there are quite a few Ferraris entered. Ferraris of the 50s and 60s were very reliable and still are if taken care. Forza did an article on a 330 GT 2+2 that took on the Inca Challenge which the Ferrari was discouraged to join the race and was in the lead when the driver hit a pedestrian and was detained. The car did finish the race to everyones surprise. Although this is attributed really to the mechanical skills of the driver and navigator more so than the reliability of the car, but still a cool achievement. The cars of the 70s and 80s are fairly reliable compared to other highend cars of the period. No Ferrari is as reliable as a Dodge or Chevy. I don't know how the newer cars fair at reliablity, but I think the new 360GT has proven that they are good endurance racers. Lets just agree that Ferrari fails at all races they don't participate in and therefore they Suck. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1210 Registered: 9-2001 |
I read the same article and didn't find it as much of an insult to Ferraris as it was a statement of fact. Ferraris were very competitive in hillclimbs in the 1950s and 1960s which takes a lot out of a car. But Ferrari and its owners have been remiss in competing in such events since the speculators entered the picture and starting thinking of the cars as trophies rather than performance cars. I love Ferraris(and Dinos) but admit that they are more expensive than they need to be, are not as reliable as they could be and don't perform nearly as well as they should for what they cost. And racing is always expensive whether or not it is a Ferrari or a Dodge. | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 88 Registered: 9-2001 |
I also just read the article in question and I was amazed at the inaccuracies. He digs at Lamborghini saying that their best finish ever was 10th and the owner of the car acknowledged how he was outclassed at the event. Well we all know from Wayne's post that a Diablo finished 2nd overall in the 1999 One Lap. He also says Ferraris have never finished better than 25th and fails to mention the fact that Ferraris very rarely even participate and the most recent Ferrari participation was 2 years ago with a 19 year old car and the next most recent Ferrari participation was 19 years ago. Maybe the gruelling event is better suited for cars that don't cost as much to purchase or repair. 15,000 miles on a $100K+ car is a lot to risk on an event that very few people even know exists and event fewer care about. I think it mentions one of the tracks is a dirt track and one is an oval. Wow that is exactly what I want, to take my Ferrari out on a dirt track with a bunch of yayHoos that have a hard on to beat the sole Ferrari in the field and then drive 800 miles to the oval track and have the same guys have another shot at me all to win Bock Yates $5K!!?!?!? That might pay for about 1/2 the cost of the paint job you just destroyed or maybe the Major Service that is now due, yeah seems worth it. What a Jackass! | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Junior Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 209 Registered: 2-2001 |
Brock's a longtime button-pusher. Some of his stuff's fairly entertaining, I think. Have to applaud any U.S. sheetmetal rag hack with a point of view in '02, even if I don't necessarily share it. Somehow I think I'll get past the fact that Brock might not like my car. The guy's a character. | ||
| Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Junior Member Username: Tork1966 Post Number: 225 Registered: 7-2001 |
I just got my C & D in the mail yesterday and I had no idea how scathing his comments were. Isn't it a reporter's duty to provide a truly objective viewpoint? This thousand pound horse has obviously got a hard on for Ferrari and he's making no bones about letting us know it. I for one will NOT be subscribing again and I'm writing them a letter to let them know why. Look at his dumb ass picture in the magazine, he looks like Fat Bastard from Austin Powers. | ||
| Richard Stephens (Dino2400)
Junior Member Username: Dino2400 Post Number: 131 Registered: 10-2001 |
Regarding what Ferrari spends on F1. Their *budget* for the F1 team might be $300 million a year. But it's not like that money comes out of their road car accounts! They use sponsor money. For example, one assumes that Schumacher's salary is included in that $300mil figure: but Ferrari's deal with Shell as a sponsor is that Shell pays Michael's salary (or at least that's what a certain former shell sponsored landspeed record holder told me). I don't even want to guess at what Marlboro is paying per year. The factory also gets lots of tv revenue money from F1. Then factor in all the revenue from shirts, hats, bags, flags, shoes (ha!), etc. I suspect that even if Ferrari never sold a single road car as a result of its F1 success, the racing team itself could be a money maker. | ||
| Andre Vieira (Goggles_pisano)
New member Username: Goggles_pisano Post Number: 31 Registered: 5-2002 |
posted twice--never mind. | ||
| Andre Vieira (Goggles_pisano)
New member Username: Goggles_pisano Post Number: 30 Registered: 5-2002 |
As far as Brock Yates and Car and Driver is concerned, feh. This is the same magazine that made its mark comparing the Pontiac GTO with the Ferrari GTO in 1964. Brilliant PR for Jim Wangers, John Z. DeLorean and Pontiac, but they never really drove a 250 GTO...they just had an illustration on the cover. The Pontiac was a ringer as well, with a 421 Super Duty V-8 shoehorned into the engine compartment--more details here. I agree with Jack's assessment, it's all about the advertising dollars. Maybe Mr. Yates was being nostalgic about his Cannonball Trophy Dash with Dan Gurney across the States in the 365 Daytona... | ||
| George Daina (Oof_n_goof)
New member Username: Oof_n_goof Post Number: 30 Registered: 7-2002 |
As a Corvette and Ferrai owner, I enjoy the best of both worlds....granted the 68 is a dinasour, but it sure kicks ass out of all the cars mentioned below, including the Viper....license plate reads VIPRETR...good old American Muscle... 533 cubes, 613 horses at the rear wheels, Doug Nash 5 speed, gearing up the ying yang..tough to beat in a straight line. Yes...both the vette and the 308 get a lot of looks where ever I park them... Which one do I drive? Whatever mood I'm in....if I feel I want to kick some butt....the 68 is the car of choice...if I want peace and tranquility...the 308 QV is the choice....two different breeds, two different animals all together...impossible to compare. Which is more trouble free? Actually both. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 542 Registered: 2-2001 |
Hey, if you are happy with it, that is all that matters. Enjoy it! Ernesto | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 538 Registered: 3-2002 |
No argument there. It's the first post-60s Vette I actually like. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1755 Registered: 2-2001 |
And my $50,000 Corvette is totally dependable for all of my purposes. I think I got my money's worth. | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 534 Registered: 3-2002 |
Ed, your conditioning makes sense, but unfortunately a lot of manufacturers never took that class. Think about how many products out there are crap, regardless of price. It seems like the less I pay for a pair of shoes, the longer they last. Cheaper clothes shrink less and the buttons don't fall off. And my $.50 Papermates write much better than any high priced pen I've ever used. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Junior Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 194 Registered: 4-2002 |
Hey, when I said a 360 was not worth the money, I meant just to me. I can see why someone else may want it and I understand its a great car. To me though, I would rather have a 365GTB/4 Daytona any day. The bonus is that with the money left over I could build a pretty good collection of other cars. Its seems obvious that while the Ferrari may not offer much more if any more performance than lots of other, cheaper cars it does offer more in all the other areas. I reckon lots of folks are willing to pay huge bucks for this. As for me, I love my lowly '77 GTB. Its cheap, quick, reasonable to work on, looks drop dead gorgeous, sounds wonderful and attracts attention unlike anything else I have ever owned. With the difference in money between what I paid and a 360 think of all the other cool cars that could be owned! Sure tons of cars will outrun and outhandle it, but when my 911 hotrod is finished I will have that problem solved. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Junior Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 149 Registered: 5-2002 |
Patek Phillippe: Wasn't that the Ferrari driver that only raced under certain phases of the moon? | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 69 Registered: 6-2002 |
Let's try this again. If one wants the most accurate watch, buy a Casio for $10.95. If one wants a time piece that took years to build, is limited in production, and can be proudly handed down to the next 10 generations, invest in a Patek Phillippe. If you want a fast car that is mass produced, buy a Corvette. If you prefer a limited production, timeless piece of art, invest in a Ferrari. Jim Selevan | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 539 Registered: 2-2001 |
As far as I am concerned, a Ferrari 360M is worth every penny of the $169,000 it costs, and a Vette or a Viper is not worth half of whatever $50K plus they run. I guess that is why we have opinions... Who cares who is fastest? My Supra is faster than any Vette or Viper I have ever seen, including Hennessey or Lingenfelter editions, as well as any road Ferrari. It is certainly many times faster than my 360. More reliable, and has better fit and finish. Which one do I drive every day? If you have to ask... Ernesto | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
New member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 49 Registered: 8-2002 |
. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1743 Registered: 2-2001 |
I have always been conditioned that you are supposed to get what you pay for. I expect the most expensive TV to have the best picture and features, and the most longevity. The most expensive Toaster should make perfect toast and last indefinately. The most expensive Shoes should look and feel the best and last the longest. The most expensive Meal should taste the best and satisfy your appetite the most. The most expensive car should look the best, outrun the others, be the most reliable, and cost the least to maintain. This is my criteria, and what I look for when shopping, regardless of "Name Brand" or "Heritage". | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 526 Registered: 3-2002 |
As far as Brock Yates goes, don't forget about the publicity factor. Ferrari's annual advertising budget in C&D is in the neighborhood of nothing/year. How much do Dodge and Chevrolet buy in adverts? Not that this was his sole motive, but behind the fingertips of many journalists are the loyalties they hold to the signers of their cheques. Also, what percentage of C&D's readership drives Ferraris versus American cars? It's easy, cheap, flag-waving rhetoric. The feedback he receives from this will be overwhelmingly positive, rather than all the hate letters he would have received had he said the opposite were true. That's why I quit buying the car monthlys. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
New member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 46 Registered: 8-2002 |
Horsefly, why don't you share some of that stuff you're smoking? :P You're referring to the 1966 LeMans with a 1-2-3 finish by the Ford GT40's. They were not disqualified. Dan Gurney, however, was disqualified at Sebring that same year. His GT40 MkII blew it's engine on the very last turn of the very last lap. Gurney jumped out and pushed the car to victory, only to be disqualified later for doing so. Could that be what you're thinking of? Wayne | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 400 Registered: 2-2002 |
The Ford driver (Ken Miles) was NOT disqualified. He was relegated to 2nd place because it was judged that the car that was supposed to finish second had actually covered a greater distance in 24 hours. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Junior Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 146 Registered: 5-2002 |
And don't forget how Ford got their GT40 disqualified as a winner in one of those big races because the GT40 driver leading the race actually slowed down so that he and his other 2 GT40 teammates in second and third place could cross the finish line together for a photo opportunity. The lead car was disqualified for slowing down. | ||
| Al Johnson (Bigal)
New member Username: Bigal Post Number: 38 Registered: 3-2002 |
And don't forget Ford's domiance at Le Mans from 66-69. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
New member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 40 Registered: 8-2002 |
Bad example. Corvettes have actually done extremely well at Le Mans, Sebring and Daytona. In fact, at the upcoming Monterey historic Races at Laguna Seca, Corvette is the featured marque. I'll be there watching those Corvettes kill Ferrari GTO's and SWB's as usual. It hurts, I know. Wayne | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 68 Registered: 6-2002 |
Let us not forget from where Ferrari emerged. Post war (pre War) Europe witnessed expensive petrol, open roads, narrow streets, and mountains. Ferrari was a product of these constraints, with small displacement, high RPM engines, which participated in events like Le Mans, F1, Mille Miglia hill climb (pardon the spelling) etc. DRAG racing was not part of the design requirements. One lap races simply did not get factored in to the design requirements. Muscle cars, such as Chevrolet and Dodge (the proper name for Corvette and Viper) do what they do well. They were designed for this. However, how many Chevrolets have won LeMans? How about Daytona? Perhaps Sebring? As an earlier post suggested, one cannot compare apples and oranges, and those that do are confused. Jim Selevan | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 92 Registered: 3-2002 |
*rises finger* F50 TWIN TURBO. :p | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 90 Registered: 3-2002 |
He is just trying to sell a magazine guys. Plus, a Viper SRT-10 is faster than any stock 360 or 575M. Hell, a ZO6 can keep up with a Modena on a track. | ||
| Al Johnson (Bigal)
New member Username: Bigal Post Number: 34 Registered: 3-2002 |
I'm with Fred. I don't care how fast other cars are, I don't care what car won what race. NO OTHER marque in the world has the allure of Ferrari, NONE. Fred pretty well summed up most people's reactions too. You see a Vette go down the street-so. Someone tells you they own a Porsche-so. You do the same with a Ferrari and people come unglued. | ||
| Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Junior Member Username: Tork1966 Post Number: 208 Registered: 7-2001 |
Good one Fred! | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 547 Registered: 2-2001 |
What about drag racing? I don't think they have won even one drag racing title! What a Mickey Mouse operation. | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 79 Registered: 9-2001 |
This absolutely rediculous. I guess I should have did a little more research before I started even reading this tread. After looking at the One Lap website and looking at the history pages in 18 years all of 4 Ferraris have participated in this event. in the years 1984-1990 not one Ferrari Participated. In fact since 1994 only one Ferrari has participated to date. That was in 2000 a 1983 512 BBi. Unbeleivable I guess if you are not running in a race you have lost it. To say that Corvettes, Vipers, BMWs and Porsches are better at a race than Ferrari when there hasn't been a Ferrari participate in years is silly. James of these "Various Ferraris" that you have seen participate, and almost all have dropped out which cars dropped out the Boxer, the 348, the 308 or the Testarossa? I wish I had a Ferrari and I would give it a try and you know what I would probably fail, but because of my limited funds and limited mechanical skill not the car. I would love to see a 360 or a 512tr or even a 328 enter and see how they would do. I know why don't we bash Ferrari for their lack of success at NASCAR or Rally CAR. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 537 Registered: 2-2001 |
I stand corrected, L. Wayne! I guess Porche did enter F1 races in the 50's and early 60's. I suppose since they werent that comepetitive it didnt stick in my mind. He is the info from that link you gave: The Type 718 and 804 Formula Two and Formula One Single Seaters In the late 1950's the Porsche factory began its involvement in Formula racing by running virtually standard 550A Spyders. In the Formula Two portion of the annual German Grand Prix at the Nurburgring, in 1958, Jean Behra, driving a modified Type 718 RSK Spyder with its seat located on the chassis centerline won the Formula Two race at the Rhiems circuit in France. In 1959 and 1960, Porsche produced an open wheel, single seater version of the Type 718, using this to dominate the Formula Two championship during that latter Season, the last for the 1 5-liter formula The next year. When Formula One adopted the 1.5-liter displacement cap, Porsche appeared poised to claim the World Title. Unfortunately, things didn't go Porsche's way; the Type 718 being outclassed by Ferrari's Type 156 V-6. For 1962, Porsche introduced the Type 804 that abandoned Zuffenhausen's traditional flat four cam, four-cylinder for a new boxer eight. While the engine was competitive, and indeed could be found for many years thereafter powering Porsche sports racing prototypes in 2.0 and 2.32-liter form, the Type 804 could not keep up with the British BRM and Lotus V-8's. In all, the 804 won only twice, coming home first in the French Grand Prix at Rouen and again on its home turf at the Solitude Ring outside 01' Stuttgart in a non-points affair, Gurney being the driver on both occasions. At the end of 1962, Porsche withdrew from Formula One, not returning to the sport until 1983 as an engine supplier for McLaren. | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 355 Registered: 6-2001 |
I have a friend who did the One Lap last year. He is an instructor at Skip Barber, and a pretty damn good driver. Anyway, he spends all this time and money prepping a car for the One Lap, gets his application in, drives 25-30 hours cross country non-stop to the first event, only to be met by Mr. Yates who is having a bad hair day and refuses to let him participate due to some minor technicality with the car's preparation. My friend offers to remove or modify the offending hardware and is rebuffed. He then mentions to Yates that Yates is the proponent of "the only rule is no rules", a statement publicized by Yates during Cannonball, and can he please have a little slack to fix the problem and participate in the races. Yates turns beet red, SCREAMS at my friend, calls him an a**hole and tells him to leave. Those of you who have taken Skippy's racing course have probably heard this story. Yates was this guy's idol until that point. Now he believes him to be an egotistical jerk. Just look at Yates' picture next to his column. Big beer belly, no hair, stupid smirk, tight jeans and a leather jacket. He doesn't even write well, even when writing about himself (which is 98% of the time). Who is he kidding? | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
New member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 21 Registered: 8-2002 |
Yep, you spoke too soon. Check this out: http://www.lamborghiniregistry.com/Diablo/DiabloSV/OneLapDiabloSV.html | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 78 Registered: 9-2001 |
Like I said before, I know I would be shouting from the roof tops if Ferrari had won the One Lap, I love the idea of the race and acknowledge that it is a true test of reliablity. I also think that if Ferrari really wanted to win it and put an factory effort towards winning it that they would shine. We all know that Reliability is not Ferraris strongest trait, but in comparison to cars that are similarly made they are tops. I don't see Lamborghini winning many of these type events Either. I may have just written to soon, because I don't know Lambo's history with the one lap either. And to Frank's point about the US being Ferrari's largest single country market. They produce about 4300 cars a year, about 1200 of them come to the US with very few cars going to Japan, China, Malaysia and Austrailia I think the European market might be larger. I could be wrong though. | ||
| James Dixon (Omnadren250)
Member Username: Omnadren250 Post Number: 268 Registered: 7-2001 |
There is no point arguing about this. As soon as a Ferrari wins the "One Lap of America" or the "Open Track Challenge", I suspect that most people on here will flip-flop and begin recognizing the above mentioned events as important races. For the record, there have been various Ferraris entered in the One Lap of America challenge. But that particular events requires racing on a track, and then driving the car on the highway to all the other events. No trailers are allowed. Unfortunaly, almost all of the Ferraris had to drop out, as they had mechanical problems drving from track to track. Perhaps when Ferrari can make a car that is more reliable for every day driving, they will be able to compete in these types of events | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 77 Registered: 9-2001 |
Oh when I stated that Ferrari made $1 billion on car sales I ment to say they had total sales of $758 million and profitted 11.5 million according to a Bloomberg report on Fiat in 1999. I am sure they make more profit today than in 1999, that is why I used the $1 billion sales as estimated by mediobanca. I have heard that this year they made an approx. $50 million in profit this year while spending more than 6 times that on F1. Up until recently Ferrari sales were seperate from F1 and I am sure they are making much more than $11.5 million on profits from F1. Just trying to be accurate. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
New member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 18 Registered: 8-2002 |
Porsche did race in Formula one in the late 50's and early 60's. Later, in the 80's they were an engine supplier to McLaren. Check this link for more info: http://www.vpracing.com/The_Cars/the_cars.html | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 76 Registered: 9-2001 |
Yes the US is the largest market for Ferrari and they have done quite well without putting their efforts into the one lap or Indycar. Fiat owns a percentage of Ferrari they do not manufacture them. I was not putting down the fact that Chevy and Chrysler make cheap cars and muscle cars, but trying to illustrate a philosophy of racing to sell cars and selling cars to race. Ferrari only made approx. $1 bil last year on selling cars and the racing program (F1) is valued at around $2.4 billion (estimated by Mediobanca)that to me is the point I was making. Porsche and BMW are both great cars and maybe I should have checked the history of the One Lap, but the thread was centering on Corvette and Viper. In an interview with Luca, he stated that FIAT was a sponsor of the formula one program like any other (i.e. Marboro) and only paid for the logo on the car. BMW has a much larger budget for racing as evident with the money they put into other racing programs combined with what they do in F1. Ferrari spending $300+ million on a F1 team is huge considering their profits on car sales. Audi/VW own Porsche? Although maybe smaller than GM they are immensly larger than Ferrari. Porsche has a great heritage and is a fabulous car, but for me does not make my blood rush and is still a company that largest concern is selling cars. Otherwise they would not be selling SUVs. Although you may equate Ferrari and FIAT, they still are only a percentage owner not the manufacturer. Or we would have already have a Ferrari SUV on the market. | ||
| Dave L (Davel)
Junior Member Username: Davel Post Number: 203 Registered: 7-2001 |
Porsche ran F1. Watch Speed TV. Legends of Motor Racing has shown them competing. They had an F1 team. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 534 Registered: 2-2001 |
Porsche never raced F1. They supplied engines to a team, which is VERY different than running an F1 team - like Toyota, Renault, and Ferrari do, which are the only three teams that do everything (chassis and drivetrain) inhouse. The simple question is, do you remember who won the one lap five years ago (driver(s) and car)? I dont think anybody does without looking it up. Who cares? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1204 Registered: 9-2001 |
Terry, its BMWs and Porsche that often win the One Lap. As I recall, they are both non-American brands and BMW races F1 now and Porsche has raced F1 in the past. And won two Championships I might add. While larger than Ferrari, Porsche is a small company compared to GM, Dodge or Ford. The fact that a company makes both the Corvette and the Metro or the Viper and the Neon is quite an achievement . But then again, Fiat makes the Ferrari and the Punto too. By the way, the U.S.A. is Ferraris largest market and sells more cars here than it does in Italy. | ||
| Anthony Acunzo (Yank05)
Junior Member Username: Yank05 Post Number: 81 Registered: 8-2001 |
Let me state right out that I love Ferraris and for me, no other manufacturer can capture the beauty, class, mystique and presence that a Ferrari displays. They will always be my favorite. But, I also am not a person who shuns every other vehicle out there. Notice how in the above paragraph I did not state "no other manufacturer can capture performance..." The fact of the matter is, a new Vette Z06 does in fact display what one would call "supercar performance". In fact, for the money, it is exceptional. On a racetrack, it would give it's $200K counterparts serious competition. Now I am not really a Vette fan, but any person involved in performance cars/racing can not really ignore it's presence just because it is not a Ferrari. As technology becomes more readily available (i.e. cheaper), cars will continue to perform better and this performance will be much cheaper to obtain. Years ago, one of Ferraris main selling points was to offer performance better than anything on the road - and they did (pretty much) just that. Now, things are changing somewhat. Now, one can go out and purchase a $50K car with performance figures in the realm of a $200K vehicle. Ferrari (and related exotics) realize (as most of us do)that performance numbers are not everything when it comes to offering a vehicle. It is many other things such as look, driver workload (on a racetrack for instance), engine behavior, sound, feel, sophistication, etc. They now realize that their 0-60 times, handling numbers, etc. can and will be matched by something which cost much less - in other words, "performance" is no longer an exclusive feature. Ferrari KNOWS their name and reputation represents "exclusivity" and can get away with not having the most over-the-top performance if they wanted to - and can get away with charging $200K for one of their cars because of this. Do I think a new Ferrari is worth the going rate? Yes, but not for strictly performance reasons. They offer other traits (mentioned above) that no other manufacturer can match. Do I think (new)Vettes (Z06s) are great cars for the money? Absolutely. Appearance-wise, I think it is okay, interior-wise, I think it is a nightmare! But, I think anyone could appreciate that fact that you can get something with less mantainence, and exhilerating performance (and still turn 22mpg hw) with for about $60K - and the fact that is made in our country helps even more. Just my 10 cents. Thanks, Anthony | ||
| Tino (Bboxer)
Junior Member Username: Bboxer Post Number: 124 Registered: 8-2001 |
Yates has always had a problem with Ferraris. I had a good discussion with him a few years back just after he published his book on Enzo. He is full of contempt for the Ferrari "attitude" and that, I believe, has blurred his judgement. BTW, he's pretty nasty writing about Enzo's business style and private life. (Maybe he showed up at the factory gate back in the 80's and no one let him in ?) | ||
| Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Junior Member Username: Tork1966 Post Number: 206 Registered: 7-2001 |
"Gets it quite well"...obviously you missed my inference to him saying that the 360 was not worth the extra $130,000 to gain a 1/2 second. That was what I was referring to and that comment only. My point is that he has bashed the reliability and cost of Ferrari's many times and I just don't get it. Either you love the cars or you don't. I'm not saying that he hasn't provided some useful information to all of us. I'm not knocking Corvettes either, my dad has a 1966 Nassau Blue coupe with white interior, side pipes and knock offs that had a frame off restoration and is just beautiful. He also has a 1978 308 GTS...guess which one he and I like better? But again that's just personal preference. Everyone here knows Ferrari's are somewhat tempermental, are expensive and are not as fast as some other makes, but you accept them as the beautiful works of art that they are or you don't. There's no reason to bash them on this forum. | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 75 Registered: 9-2001 |
Vipers are very fast and should be with the HUGE motor and Z06 is very fast and a great buy compared to other sportscars, but to say that a 360 is not worth the money is rediculous there is a 5 year waiting list for a reason. I wish a Ferrari would win every race that one enters, but the fact is Ferrari only concentrates on making a F1 Race winner and considering the size of the company that is a great achievement, on the other hand Chrysler and Chevy can put much more money into cars that win prestigious US races as well as NASCAR and ALMS. Your right you cannot compare them, because when it comes down to it the American companies have much more money than Ferrari. F1 is more expensive than all of these put together and for the european market it is much more important. Ferrari has to be concerned with a global marketplace, while the US is a large market for them the rest of the world could care less about the AMLS or Cart or INDYCAR or the One Lap of America. Ed, is right, if Ferrari won the One lap I would be very proud and tell everyone. And I wish they had another $300 million to throw around at all racing series and win them all, but the reality is Ferrari is selling cars to race and not racing to sell cars. Ferrari has a better build quality, has a better spirit and more prestige. The same company that builds the Corvette is responsible for the Metro and the same company that builds the Viper is responsible for the Neon. | ||
| michael shing (Michael_360)
New member Username: Michael_360 Post Number: 10 Registered: 7-2002 |
I have driven many types of car's over the year's having grown up in the SF bay area I have also had my share of road raceing (hwy's 1 & 92 & 84 & 17& skyline blvd. those out here know what I mean . It all come's to prep. I also ride motorcycle's best way to explain it the differance between a Harley and honda both are good but one inspire's. | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Junior Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 203 Registered: 2-2001 |
My experience has been that Ferraris tend to dominate at Ferrari club events. Would concur w/Dino Frank re: 512 v Viper if drivers are of comparable ability. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 498 Registered: 10-2001 |
I have a hunch anyone who beats a 512 in a Viper on a track is either one F-ing great driver, or it's got very long straights and gentle curves. I bet if they switched cars and raced again, the 512 with the great driver would spank the Viper. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1203 Registered: 9-2001 |
William, I agree that One Lap does not compare to F1. One Lap is in fact a better measurement of the type of cars people like us own than F1. A lot of us own Vipers, Porsches, Ferarris, ect... where very few of us own F1 cars.As to F1, Ferrari has not done very well either over the past 20 years. It's only been since 1999 that Ferrari has again became the one to beat since the 1970s i believe ! | ||
| Fred (Iluv4res)
New member Username: Iluv4res Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2002 |
Let's see....1/2 second? Which car will they park out front of a nice restaurant, nightclub or country club if they only had space for one? Duh..the Ferrari. Which car would you rather be seen in at a high-school reunion, on a date, by an ex-girlfriend, business associates or even at a stop light? Duh..the Ferrari. Which car would look nicer in the garage? Which car makes you smile from ear to f**king ear when you drive it? Which car don't you see that often? Which car would most anyone who loves cars prefer if it were given to them? Duh..the Ferrari. Do the math.....it only takes 1/2 second to decide......Duh..the Ferrari. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1219 Registered: 2-2001 |
Frank, you only get throttle lift oversteer IF you lift, I never do Ive spanked my share of Vipers & Z06s & Porsche 993 & 996 Turbos I think Ed has a point, The One Lap does not compare to F1 | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1201 Registered: 9-2001 |
I love Ferraris and read the article William is referring to. The facts are on his side. There have been Ferraris entered in the One Lap for the past 20 years. Yet a Ferrari has never finished in the top 25 ! That's a fact. That includes the stock class as well as the modified class. If you have owned a Ferrari more than a year or so you will have to admit that while they're wonderful cars they could have a little better reliability. And William, I suggest you reconsider going against a Viper GTS on the track. I suspect that even a stock one with street tires will spank a 512TR rather easily. I had a 1998 Viper GTS and easily took of 512TRs, 355s and 911s at Road Atlanta. Vipers are fast down the straight and handle much better than the 512TR. Can we say throttle lift oversteer ? | ||
| ctk (Ctk)
Junior Member Username: Ctk Post Number: 59 Registered: 7-2001 |
Let's hear for Ed! | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 303 Registered: 5-2001 |
I think Ed gets it quit well and I hope he stays around for long time, whether he keeps his 308 or not. Ed has provided significant help to many people on this board and has produced a truely unique cam drive system for 2-V 308's. While Ed's comments are sometimes abrasive and I don't always agree with him, his insight and objectivity are remarkable. While I'm not a big fan of Corvettes and NASCAR, I have to admit the Corvette has become a world class car and the NASCAR guys really can drive, even on road race courses. | ||
| Jerry W. (Tork1966)
Junior Member Username: Tork1966 Post Number: 204 Registered: 7-2001 |
Ed, If you love Corvettes so much, why are you on here? You obviously have issues with Ferraris that you need to resolve. Sell your Ferrari like you threatened to do, buy your Corvette and go watch your Nascar races. BTW,if you think it is about the 1/2 second, you just don't get it...Yank. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
New member Username: Artherd Post Number: 48 Registered: 6-2002 |
"Is 1/2 second worth $130,000?" Abso-fucking-lutely. Best! Ben. (I've driven both. Anyone who dosen't like Ferraris better check for a pulse.) | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Junior Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 191 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ed, Ill agree with ya, sorta. $180K for a 360 makes no sense at all to me for what you get. For the same money you could have a Daytona, an E-Type roadster and an early 911S. Swap a 512BB for the Daytona and you could get a new Vette in there too... Too many cars, too little space and $$$$ | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1740 Registered: 2-2001 |
I bet if the Ferrari had been winning the One Lap races a different opinion would be given. Yea, the best car won. Yea, we're bad, we whipped them Corvettes, sent them back to High School. If you win it's great if you loose, why is it not a worthy enough race? A loss is a loss. I recall a 24 hour race in Daytona recently where some Corvettes did quite nicely driven by some, I dare say, NASCAR Drivers. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 533 Registered: 2-2001 |
Even if the Corvette was faster than a 360 by ten seconds, it would still be overpriced at $15,000 new, IMHO. Who cares about the One Lap of America? Ferrari sticks to the upper eschilon of motorsports, F1. Dedicating a significant effort to One Lap would be like an NFL player going back to high school to play ball. Ernesto | ||
| Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member Username: Pcelenta Post Number: 62 Registered: 7-2002 |
oooh! don't piss-off Steve...but seriously, you have to wonder about a guy who's life dream was making the movie "cannonball run" | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 354 Registered: 6-2001 |
Brock Yates is a big fat slob who lives in a double-wide and had his best days 25 years ago. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 398 Registered: 2-2002 |
Brock Yates built his reputation by being controversial. He's reeling you in, and he wins no matter what. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1737 Registered: 2-2001 |
Let the record speak for itself people. He is talking about the Lap of America, not a hot lap at Road Atlanta and Ferrari's record is ?????? The Corvette at $50,000 is 1/2 second slower 0 to 60 than a $180,000 360 Ferrari. Is 1/2 second worth $130,000? I don't think so. Can't compete with the Italians? They better look right over their shoulders. The Yanks are commin!!!!!!! | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 509 Registered: 10-2001 |
In my best Joe Pesci voice "Do you hear a little girl crying? Is that what you hear?" Give me a break! You can't compare dime a dozen vettes and vipers to any Italian supercar. | ||
| Mitchel DeFrancis (4re308)
Member Username: 4re308 Post Number: 605 Registered: 6-2001 |
I simply cannot understand how someone, even a die hard auto enthusiast like Brock Yates, can compare a Ferrari to a Vette or a Viper. Its like comparing apples to oranges. Go get him Bill, his age must have severly clouded his judgment. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1218 Registered: 2-2001 |
sounds like a classic case of sour grapes | ||
| Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member Username: Pcelenta Post Number: 61 Registered: 7-2002 |
seems his brain turned to mush since he sold his cannonball daytona...poor guy. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1217 Registered: 2-2001 |
Have u read Brocks column in the new C & D ? It really annoyed me, I'm going to write them a letter. He states that he doesnt believe any Ferrari can run in the top 3 in his retarded 1 Lap & how Ferraris r lame compared to Vettes & Vipers. Vipers r little more well built than Yugos. I'm gonna dare him to meet me at the Glen Aug 30 with his vette or viper & give him a nice spanking on the track with my "lame" 512TR |