| Author | Message | ||
| Dave (Steelydave11)
New member Username: Steelydave11 Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2002 |
Regarding a 1989 328 GTS, could someone please email me or post a complete list of what's included in a 15k and 30k service as specified by Ferrari? Is there such a thing as a 15k service that does NOT include a new timing belt? Thanks. | ||
| Dave (Steelydave11)
New member Username: Steelydave11 Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2002 |
Could someone please email me or post a complete list of what's included in a 15k and 30k service as specified by Ferrari? Is there such a thing as a 15k service that does NOT include a new timing belt? Thanks. | ||
| Michael A. Niles (Man90tr)
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I did my calculation and it comes out to $1.08 per mile driven over the last two years. | ||
| Peter Boray (Gts308qv)
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The only disaster I have heard of in my neck of the woods is a '75 GT4 which had 87k on it and no belt replacement for approx 8 years at 35k. The only problem with this failure is that it cannot be estabished whether it was actually the belts. After pulling the engine, one belt was off the engine and damaged but still together. It was the water pump that seized, blew apart taking out the AC and alternator belts which inturn damaged belt cover & took one of the drive belts. Bent valves on forward bank, two damaged pistons, with minor damage to head around one of the valve guides. Every Ferrari mechanic, enthusiast and maintenance book says CHECK or replace waterpump with each belt change. If the belts had been changed earlier, then maybe... the owner or service specialist would have noticed a worn or noisy pump. This may not have been an outright belt failure, but still co-related to good maintenance and regular belt replacement. What do the experts think ? | ||
| Charles T (Charles)
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add to my maintenance listed below a full fluid change on 5/19/01: Oil Brake fluid Transmission fluid Anti freeze oil filter $460 at European Automotive in Huntington, NY (Mike Franco did the work) | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
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To get back to the original thread: I just bought over 300 UK Pounds of parts for my car on my trip to England which I just returned from. Included in that are eight new exhaust valves that are Tuff-trided and have Stellite valve-seat edges to run unleaded gasoline. Plus they're solid valves, not the original sodium-filled valves which often break. Three of my original valves are bent, so might as well do all of them. I had horse-shoes up my a--, because the timing belts hadn't been changed in over 10+ years, prior to my purchase (and now my rebuild, which I've anxiously waited to get back to). | ||
| Reiner Kaiser (Reinerkaiser)
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Caribe, this will work just the same with the Testarossa, however, the 512TR no longer had a subframe, there you will need to lift the engine out. AC: Any decent AC shop can do this. Frankly, my cost of maintaining the car has been very reasonable so far. I think that as long as you watch out (and are able to live with) some of the electronic gremlins, the F-cars are actually quite reliable and mechanically sound. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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Reiner, You have given me even more ideas about this whole thing. Imagine saving Thousand$$$ in service with a jig like this! I have to check how something like this might work with my future TR. Huh!, perhaps Ferraris are not that expensive to own after all! By the way, how long did it take you to complete? and who discharged your Freon? Thanks, Caribe. | ||
| Sam NYCFERRARIS (Sam)
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Reiner, WOW--Amazing, creative and inventive. My guy charged me 7K when all was said an done and took forever!!! They make it a big deal like "Oh got to drop the entire rear..." You really showed us all some magic.. keep those pics up and link alive for awhile...we willall save thanks to you. | ||
| Mark McKenzie (Redcar)
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Great Pictures! Beautiful car. Thank you very much | ||
| Reiner Kaiser (Reinerkaiser)
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oops. try this: http://www.zing.com/album/?id=4292802937 if you still can't see it, check out hobby->automotive->ferrari, my pseudonym there is "twodoggone" | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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Reiner, For some reason, the link did not work for me. It goes to zing.com, but Zing says "page not found". Any ideas. Thanks, Caribe. | ||
| Reiner Kaiser (Reinerkaiser)
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Gentlemen, here is a link to a few pictures I have on Zing. Sorry, no step by step series of pics: http://www.zing.com/album/id=4292802937&code=1703113&mode=invite -I built the cradle using wooden boards and small swivel rollers available at home depot. -I disconnected all cables, clutch/brake lines, AC, shifter cables beforehand. Make sure that you are in second gear, then open the rubber shifter connection box and unbolt the 13mm connector bolt, then the cable connector will just drop down and you can disconnect the two cables. The AC disconnects at the firewall, make sure your Freon has been evacuated first (20k fine). Disconnect and remove the motronic units behind the seats. Make sure to attach small wires/lines to the cables so you can pull them back later. The clutch line should be disconnected at the highest possible point (easier to bleed). Don't forget to run a line attached to the throttle cable as well, it will be a ••••• to pull it back through otherwise. -put cradle under engine, lower car onto cradle until there is only a light load on the jack (cradle should take part of the load, but not all). Then, unbolt all subassy connections. Make sure you do not have more than moderate load on the subassy or you will strip the bolts. -with all bolts off, raise car so subassy will clear the rear frame mount points on the car, then rotate subassy sideways, getting access to the car. You should only have to jack up the rear by about 10 inches max. (see pics on Zing). -do the timing belt job. See instructions for 308 in archives on this site. Most of these will apply to 348 as well (one belt only). What I can add to this is that I was able to get all marks spot on the first time by applying quite a bit of pressure to tension the belt by hand while attaching it to the cam gears. Water pump and tensioner bearings were still fine. -There are two sets of marks on the cams, one is accessible with closed cam covers, one is accessible when cam covers are off. Then second set (covers off) is a lot more precise, and I highly recommend to do the job with that set. Also, it's peace of mind to check the valve adjustment (mine was still perfect, I had done this job ~10000 miles ago). -when putting the subassy back in, you may need a round pry bar to make sure that all bolt holes on the firewall align with the subassy holes. Do not try to force the bolts in, you will strip them!!! Sorry about this very coarse description, hopefully it will be of some help. I felt that this job was fairly easy to do, and got some help from a fellow 348 owner as well. I was just tired of hearing quotes 5k and up, and most of the work is really taking things apart; you do not need to be a brain surgeon for this, it's just labor intensive. Do I want to pay someone 157$/hour for this job (going rate at Ogner (Woodland Hills))? Nah. | ||
| Sam NYCFERRARIS (Sam)
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I hope Herb is right, I always hope that when I get my "replacement belts" that they are factory fresh and have not been sitting in a parts bin for a few years (do we think the parts dept,. goes in and throws out old belts or sends them back the the manuf. -- any parts guys out there know if the belts are always "fresh") My 308 QV manual says to visually inspect the belts every 14K and replace them every 25K! Says nothing about 5 years. SItting in one position though seems bad for belts and an engine. I agree with Magoo here, it may be unneccessary but they got us all scared enough and the downside of not changing the belts can be catastrophic who would want to chance it -- the question is whether there really is a risk we should really fear- I don't know but one horror story would do it for me. --Love the cars to much to not take proper care of them. | ||
| Lawrence Michaels (Lxmichaels1)
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Reiner, I too would like to see the pix. Could you create a step-by-step on this. Did you have to evacuate the freon/AC, coolant and so forth?. Was the cradle complicted to make, materials used??? Thanks for the info. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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Reiner, Absolutely! Pictures and info on the job are invaluable. I am a pre-purchase inspection and an emission's certificate away from my first Ferrari and this is something that I will have to do right away. Thanks, Caribe. | ||
| David Albright (Dalbright)
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Reiner...definitely post info and pictures as well. I think it would benefit all of us regardless of the Ferrari we drive. Thanks | ||
| Reiner Kaiser (Reinerkaiser)
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let me add a data point here... I have a '91 348 with 28000 miles, drove the car spirited, but never raced on the track (I did race a couple of lotuses / NSX's / Porsches on the street though ;->). I changed the timing belt two weeks ago and am putting the car back together now. The belt was not worn, but stretched, in fact, it appears that timing was off ~2-3 degrees because of that. Also, I could almost pull it off by hand without retracting the tensioner, it was that loose. Scary. Frankly, I'm glad I changed it when I did. I'm not a skilled mechanic, but was able to do this work fairly easily without a lift. I built a rolling cradle and dropped the subframe on it, jacked the car up ~10 inches, turned the cradle 90 degrees to work on the front, then turned it back and bolted the chassis back on - done! Let me know if you want more info/details or pictures. | ||
| Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
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I would be curious to know if anyone here has ever had a belt failure or heard of one(verified) and what the conditions were. We do have to remember that although a lot of other makes use timing belts, most don't have engines that rev to 8000RPM and beyond. | ||
| Peter Boray (Gts308qv)
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Honda Chat Line ? | ||
| Herbert E. Gault (Irfgt)
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I do Honda belts every day and only the 1984 and 85 had early failures due to the belt construction. Were talking less than 60,000 miles. After that there is not a Honda alive that will not go well over 100,000 miles between changes and you do not have to remove the engine on any Honda, I can replace both the cam belt and balance shaft belt as well as the water pump in approx. 1 1/2 hours on any Honda. The belts on all cars are constructed of much better material than they used to be and I would hope the manufactures that make belts for Ferrari have upgraded their materials from original technology. | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
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A quick sidenote - On the SAAB V-6 (which IIRC maybe the same engine that is in the Caddilac Catera) it's an old Opel engine, the recommended belt change interval is 35k miles. They are also rubber belts. This 35k miles is a number the my local SAAB dealer gave me when talking about the work in my TR he said this was for cars say pre-96ish. The newer models had a belt life of 60k miles. He said that he had persoanlly seen some faliures even some which HAD failed while car was in motion. This engine must be dropped like the TR engine to do the belts and water pump. Unforuntaely I didn't yet get to ask how many hours of labor the authorized dealers bill for this. Also some Hondas use rubber timing belts as well, and need to be replaced (along with the water pump) some by engine removal (or jockey) IIRC every 8 years or 60k miles wichever comes first. I personally have seen 2 of these that had failed. Just to broaden the thinking around here a bit. -Ben | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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Assuming that the short mileage dependency of timing belts replacement is reasonable, what about years? Do belts really go bad with time on low mileage cars? | ||
| Peter Boray (Gts308qv)
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Have a 85 GTS308QV.Has 25k on the clock. The car was owned by an enthusiast with absolutely every invoice and log book entry. Ferrari guidlines were never taken into account. Belts etc. were changed every 3 years. The car received an oil change/filter every 6 months. Once a year ALL fluids were changed. Every 5 years, all hoses were changed and brakes overhauled, valves checked/adjusted,injection serviced. Air-con was serviced each time with belts. The only part that has broken down in 16 years in drivers power window switch. All was done by the owner with total invoices since 1985 amounting to about $6000.00. I will continue this routine, armed with a workshop manual and a lot of patience. The best part of owning an old Ferrari in doing stuff yourself. I know it is not always possible for everyone to do there own work, but in reality if the car is serviced well(overserviced maybe), nothing should really go wrong or wear out prematurely. Now you can all shoot me ! | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
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Bret, I totally agree with you. Someone may get 100K miles out of a timing belt,depending on how much of a gambler he is. But something that is that critical and could possibly destroy an engine if it failed. Replacing it according to the factory recommedations is a small cost compared to the alternative. MAGOO | ||
| David Albright (Dalbright)
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Maybe we should have Ralph Nader investigate this for us!  | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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Yeah I was thinking about this too a couple days ago. For some reason I just can't see how 30K miles is some magic number, for which if you over you are gonna have a belt failure. I would think you would either have one right away from defective production or you wouldn't have one for like 75K miles, or maybe even more. With all the modern technolgy there is no way that they can't be capable of making belts that can stand up for more than 30K miles. But, I'll still get mine done at the set intervals. I guess Ferrari protects themself in this. If there weren't these set intervals and someone broke a belt with like 40K miles on it and reeked havoc on there very expensive, essentially detuned racing engine, there would be hell to pay from that customer. By having these early intervals, there's really no chance for Ferrari having to replace an engine or something along these lines. | ||
| Sam NYCFERRARIS (Sam)
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I think you guys are on to something I have been suspicious about for years. I suspect that since Ferrari's are such low volume cars, and they still need a dealer repair network (very expensive to maintain for dealers) they have this major service business that ensures thsat A) cars come in for service B) a steady big repair flow for the reapir part of the biz (don't get me started on parts prices but all manuf. are guilty of that rip-off) On my 348 which was driven regular and hard for 60K miles the dealer kept nagging me all the time --major service time ...major service time blah blah waht a nag. so over the winter (they love these major services esp. during the slow winter here in the NE when the dealerships are like ghost towns). So the car had it first ever post run-in major service. I would like to report that the belts were hanging by a thread and boy was I lucky. The 50-60K belts were indistinguishable from the new ones going in...sure there might have been some microscopic internal stress stuff going on but I think the Ferrari engines are what is famous about the marque and the engines are truly rugged in design I was very impressed at the engines durability but then again I never actually knew first hand of a failure in a road car engine. | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
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Before I write another post filled with FIRE, my TR (USA) owners maunal says belt change at 52.5k miles. No time is specified. My guess is that someone thinks you will drive about 850 miles per month (each month) for 5 years. -Ben | ||
| JPM (John_308qv)
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Hey guys don't shoot me, I'm just the messenger. The owners manual calls for a major service every 15,000 mi. I'm sure that the belts can go longer than that, but are I guess I'm not willing to take a chance. Just trying to maintain the car as the factory indicates rather than experience an expensive horror story. At the rate I put miles on the car, it will be about five years before the next major. That amounts to about $650/year, which was the point of the oringinal post. It seems that quite a few of the guys do their own service. This can save big bucks. | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
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I spoke with a Ferrari tech and he told me that there was no reason to come in before 30k | ||
| Christiank (Christiank)
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I own a 86 TR and the dealer in Europe said to the previous owner that the timing belts last 8 years or 30,000 miles (stronger 512TR belts used). Here in NA they tell you 5 years or 15,000 miles. When it comes to broken timing belts I have only heard of cars which have either been sitting for many years or the last belt change was done like 10 years ago. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
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I heard from a TR owner that his Manual (Don't know if shop's or owner's) says that timing belts should be replaced around 52K mi. He said that he called Ferrari of NA to confirm data, but they did not want to confirm, or deny, that number. They told him to obtain advise from Authorized Ferrari dealers. Which brings me back to a point that I have mentioned before in another discussion, does the major really have to be done at such short intervals? The dealers will always encourage you to do it even sooner to get your hard earned $$$. What surprises me is that Ferrari will not even confirm data printed on their own Manual (assuming it was an official publication). WTF is going on here? Does anybody knows an owner, or a seen car for which the belts and engine gave way before 50K mi.? or even 40K mi.? Mechanics and shops mention them, but nobody seems to have ever met them. My $0.02, Caribe. | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
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only 15k miles????? (DID I READ THAT RIGHT?????) or 5 years? | ||
| JPM (John_308qv)
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Purchased 1985 308 QV March, 2000 - 31,000 mi, $32,500 It had the 30k service done but it was about 6 years old so I had the full service done as a precaution - $3,250. New Tires - $600 Misc. fluids approx. $200 I put 3500 mi on the car last summer. Started right up this spring and after changing the brake fluid, coolant and oil, is running like a top. I love this car! Handles great, looks great, sounds great, goes pretty good and the ride is surprisingly good for a car that sits so low my brother calls it a "slot car". So as not to scare off potential Ferrari owners, it seems that for a majority of the posts here the largest expense is the dreaded major service. Many owners seem to skip this service when they are getting ready to sell preferring to let the new owner pay for this. This cost is deceiving as it should last 15,000 mi or 5 years so this cost really should be spread over time to be fair. | ||
| Sam NYCFERRARIS (Sam)
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Greg, can you forward me (or start a new thread ) on how you did the hood strut repair (item # 13) I ahve a similar problem and bodyshops run and hide when I inquire about a fix. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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I was just reading into the other posts here, Mark my dad will definitely get a kick out of that comment, lol. Whenever I'm around him it seems that the money flows out of his wallet constantly. So far maintainance wise I have spent: $275 for rims being refinished (plastic beaded, epoxy primed, painted, clear coat) ~$500 for tires ~$400 for random little things (dash lights, valve stem caps, 3 manuals, etc.) ~$100 for a couple filters and some oil I've put like 5000 miles on it since I got it so I guess I'm doing well, other than the oil change materials the other stuff I just got to make it nicer, not because it needed to have it done(even the tires I replaced because I wanted to switch when I got the rims redone, the other ones still had some miles in them). The guy before me had the car for like 6 months and spent something like $10000 on it (new water pump, starter, and a whole lot more, I have a list a couple pages long of stuff done in the past two years or so). The engine was rebuilt about ten thousand miles ago too. Knock on wood, I don't want to jinx myself here. | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
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I bought my 78' 308 GTS last July. 1.Repaired Drivers side window and realigned. 2.New radiator fans and flushed cooling system, rewired. 3.Installed new points, set timing, throttle adjustment. 4.Fixed car stereo, speakers were not working correctly and it was fading in and out. 5.Repaired and replaced horn. 6.Disconnected cell phone and anti-theft device. 7.Turn signals, brake lights, G light coming on intermittently. Fixed bad wiring. 8.Repaired electrical parking light problem. 9.Changed spark plugs (2 times fouled first set) 10.Repaired inoperable doorlocks. 11.Clean and repaired headlight motors.(were not coming up properly) 12.Oil change 13.Repaired hood strut 14.Repaired Targa Top 15.Traced, fixed electrical bug to fuel pump. 16.New tires 17.Installed 2 Crane XR700's and PS20 coils ($240 for everything, got a deal on the coils) I did all of the work myself and I spent a little over $700 for everything. The car runs great. | ||
| kelly vince (Tofosi1)
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1980 308 GTSI 2/5/2001 purchase $28,500.00; 16,000 miles 2/2001, oil change $45.00 3/10/2001 2 CV boots. $26.00 march 2001, did cam belts myself $300.00 parts, cam belts, tensors, valve cover gaskets. April 2001, new emergency brake cables $40.00 new seat belts $300.00; red line gear oil $32.00 All labor done Me, myself and Iand my boy (CAVRAMP98). The three best friends I have. $65.oo for new therma time switch not yet installed. Total $808.00 Although the car has satup for 7 years, the more I drive it the more starts working. Example the speedometer. after putting 2,000 miles on it, it works fine. I think changing the gear oil had something to do with it. Next; Needs AC drier, and charge. EST $300.00 | ||
| Herbert E. Gault (Irfgt)
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Purchased 1982 308 in Feb 1990 for $21,000 since purchase I have replaced interior, overhauled engine with parts too numerous to list, purchased 14" wheels & tires, and stripped and repainted body, and replaced ignition system with direct fire. Approx. $22,000 not including the labor which I did the most of. I have just completed the repairs and have driven it about 1500 miles since purchase. It runs pretty damn good though. | ||
| Bernard Rowe (Gtsturbo)
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Purchased GTS Turbo (328 with single turbo produced for the Italian market) in August 2000. Milage at purchase 18,000. Had full service completed immediately inc. cam belts, valve clearances, all fluids & filters, brake pads front & rear, new battery & alarm. Cost £3000.00 ($4500.00) I've since fitted a TUBI exhaust & changed locks (one was damaged and you buy as a set) Cost £1280.00 ($1900.00). However these changes were out of choice it was not necessary. I have added about 3000 miles since, no problems. I'll change the oils & filters again within the next month, perhaps £120.00. | ||
| Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
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Bought my 1986 328GTS on November 2000, 40K miles 1. Replaced engine lid struts -- $140 set/2 2. Replaced engine oil(Mobile 1), transaxle oil(Red Line), filters(incl K&N air filter) - $260 3. Zaino wax ----------------------------- $80 All maintenance done by myself. 2000 miles of happy driving so far.... | ||
| Christiank (Christiank)
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It does not matter who the oil changes but what the guy is using (incl. exact amount of oil). I am using either Mobil 1 synthetic or Shell Helix synthetic (best oil available) plus a Fram racing filter. I do it myself but the oil change cost me over 200 dollars (US) with the Helix for the TR. | ||
| S. Long (Sml)
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What is the going rate for just an oil change? Is it something that can be done by oneself, or are owners scared about getting a bit dirty? | ||
| Justin Kerns 86 328 GTS (Kerns)
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I bought my 1986 328 GTS in January, 2001 - 30k miles. 30k service - timing belts, torsioners, valve clearance check & adjustment, water pump rebuild, A/C diagnose & fix, tach rebuild, and a variety of other small things - $5000 No wife, but the wallet hurts. I agree with the person who said, figure your maintainance expense expectation, then triple it. The car has been great fun but it has also been in the shop for 5 weeks since January. Of course it is probably in better shape now than any other time in the past 10 years. | ||
| Lee Filbert (Lfilbert)
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1987 3.2 Mondial Cab purchased May 2000 Installed new hood and trunk struts about $150 in parts. Changed engine and gear oil about $50 30k service $6200 still getting crap from the wife on that one, but the ride bribe works well. Repair broken spring in emergency brake lever $3, but could have been $400 if I wanted to buy the part. All and all worth it. I seem to be getting about 15% discount at my local Ferrari dealership on parts because I'm in the FCA. The $100 is well worth it. | ||
| Danny R. West (Dan_West348ts)
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1991 348ts - Purchased June 2000 Left bank ECU $250.00 Clutch $2,000.00 Alternator upgrade $2,000.00 Major Service $7,000.00 plus. Its still in the shop until next week. Wiring harness replacement in the doors $500.00 Tubi replacement. Tubi warranted the defective parts. Labor $100.00 Door lock passanger side $200.00 Its a fun driving car! When my wife complains about the repair cost, I give her a ride on country roads at 125 plus miles per hour. She loves it. | ||
| Charles T (Charles)
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1984 Mondial Cab. Bought in 1998 w/ 36K miles. 1998 Fuild Change $380 1998 Radiator Fan Switch $80 1998 Battery $60 1998 Transmission guide bearing replacement $560 1998 Fuel Injection Problems $1,200 1999 30K Service w/ front brakes & other $5,000 1999 Replace Electric Antenna $35 2000 Oil line hose $550 2000 Starter $750 2001 Spark plugs $50 Enjoyment - unmeasurable! You gotta love these cars (and you wife has to be very very very understanding) | ||
| Mark (Mnmark)
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I got a 1982 308 GTSi in April 1999. Had 29,000 miles, most papers and documented 30k work done. Spoke directly with the mechanic of this car for previous 8 years, who indicated the engine was in very good shape, suggested brake job would be next, in couple thousand miles. Had him rebuild them and replace shocks prior to shipping (from CA to MN) for about $1000 to 1200. Since then, burned out a rotor. Tow, replacement, oil change, and a detailing all for about $350. Mobil 1 oil, filter X 2, and copper gaskets at home, and that's been it. Put about 2000 miles in '99. Almost nothing last year as I tried to figure out what was wrong on my own prior to giving up and getting it towed. Learned a lot about what makes the car tick. As anyone with any 19 year old car (heck, isn't that older than Brett? Ask his Dad what Brett has cost over the past two years), I'm just waiting for what comes next, and loving it! The breakdowns are kind of fun in a challenging way, aren't they? Like some puzzle waiting to be solved? And I get to play with my favorite toy in a different way! | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
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I'll start, I have a 1986 328gts that has 47k miles on it. Here's it's brief history with me... 9/21/00 Bought Car with 45k miles. 9/27/00 Car hadn't had belts done in 5 years, so had 30k service w/belts. $2,800. 2/21/01 Oil Service, Water Pump rebuild, Replaced thermostatic sensor, Distributor seal & gasket (under warranty). $1,000. I'm taking it in soon for another oil change for the FCA annual meet and we'll see what else pops up, hopefully nothing. |