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Message |
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Junior Member
Username: Lwausbrooks
Post Number: 211
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 9:53 pm: | |
The 2+2 configuration and the somewhat bland styling that usually accompanies it has held back values of:
250GTE/330 America (vs both the PF Coupe and Lusso)
330GT (vs 330GTC)
365GT (vs 365GTC)
365GTC/4 & 365GT4 (vs the 365GTB/4 & 365GT BB)
Being the 12cyl 2+2 companion to the 512 BB & TR cars, it's MHO that the 400/412 series values will remain flat for MANY years to come. That's ok, though. Nothing wrong with that. I still like them.
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Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member
Username: Originalsinner
Post Number: 473
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 9:00 pm: | |
Give the 400 series time.It will come into it's own as a true Ferrari collector car.12 cylinders etc.The rear seat is a turn off to a lot of people. |
Michael C. Wilson (Wilsonm)
New member
Username: Wilsonm
Post Number: 28
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 29, 2002 - 4:23 pm: | |
I think the 400i / 412 suffers from the same stigma that has plagued the Maserati 4Porte for years. For some reason the "4 seat" exotics are always frowned upon. Not sure why... I love my 4Porte, and am looking for a 412 5 speed also. I think they are great cars!
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L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Junior Member
Username: Lwausbrooks
Post Number: 174
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 25, 2002 - 7:34 pm: | |
I agree with the "bang for the buck" assessment. I happen to like the series very much. As for the "I" word, you're talking very long-term for appreciation potential. Good thing is, though, they can be bought, enjoyed, and sold at the loss of maintenance and repair costs only. |
Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member
Username: Originalsinner
Post Number: 462
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 25, 2002 - 7:27 pm: | |
I think car is bang for buck at 25k. I also think whole 400 series is bang for buck and if you dare to use the "I" word around cars this is a series to try it with.JMHO |
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Junior Member
Username: Lwausbrooks
Post Number: 166
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 25, 2002 - 1:53 pm: | |
Okay, let me clarify. Where I listed "400GT", it refers to both 5spd and automatic models. The same for "400i" (injected cars). Gerald Roush has clarified this in the FML, I was just saving space. While it is true with the 308 series cars that the carbed cars are more desirable, in the REAL WORLD, the older carbed 400GTs (5spd & auto) sell for less. I provided an example from FML, and you blew that off. Okay, Cavallino, which gets their numbers from a survey of selected dealers says the carbed cars are valued at $18K-$33K while the injected ones are $17K-$40K. A little strange since the carbed cars are apparently worth up to a grand more on the low end while the injected cars are worth up to 7 grand more on the high end. Let's take a look back over the years like we did with FML...
Taken from the Aug/Sept issues of Cavallino:
2002:
400 (5spd+auto)...$18,000-$33,000
400i (5spd+auto)..$17,000-$40,000
2001:
400 (5spd+auto)...$20,000-$32,000
400i (5spd+auto)..$19,000-$38,000
2000:
400 (5spd+auto)...$20,000-$32,000
400i (5spd+auto)..$19,000-$38,000
1999:
400 (5spd+auto)...$20,000-$32,000
400i (5spd+auto)..$20,000-$38,000
1998:
400 (5spd+auto)...$20,000-$32,000
400i (5spd+auto)..$25,000-$38,000
1997:
400 (5spd+auto)...$20,000-$32,000
400i (5spd+auto)..$25,000-$38,000
1996:
400 (5spd+auto)...$20,000-$35,000
400i (5spd+auto)..$25,000-$40,000
1995:
400 (5spd+auto)...$25,000-$35,000
400i (5spd+auto)..$30,000-$45,000
1994:
400 (5spd+auto)...$25,000-$35,000
400i (5spd+auto)..$30,000-$45,000
1993:
400 (5spd+auto)...$25,000-$35,000
400i (5spd+auto)..$30,000-$45,000
The injected cars were consistantly worth $5K-$10K more than the carbed cars in any condition up until '99-'00 when something strange happened. Suddenly, with ratty cars, it was no longer more desirable to have an injected car, while the prime injected cars have actually extended their value over carbed cars in the same condition.
From this, I'll take it that the injected cars are not only newer, but, when in good condition, are easier to maitain than the fussier carbed cars. On the other hand, if you're buying a rat of a car that needs quite a bit of work, one would rather have to rebuild a set of carbs than mess with doing the same to a shot injection system, hence the change in lower end values as both cars get older. All the same, while the difference is minimal in rough cars, the injected cars are worth quite a bit more than their carbed brethren when in good to excellent condition. I guess it all depends on which end of the spectrum your looking at.
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Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1253
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, August 25, 2002 - 6:59 am: | |
L.Wayne, the 400GT is the 5 speed model and usually sells for more than the 400A which is the slushbox model. The carb version is faster, sounds better and looks better under the hood than the injected model. Further, the carb model is cheaper and easier to work on than the i model. |
RANDOLPH MADAMBA (Pogibm)
New member
Username: Pogibm
Post Number: 17
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 11:18 pm: | |
On any ferrari you can not say this is how much his car is worth,I've seen 400i's go for as high as $42,000 and being sold it all depends who's buying and selling. As far as carbed cars selling better than injected ones i'll have to agree with Bruno, there might be 1 carbed car for every 6 injected 400 series here in the U.S. |
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Junior Member
Username: Lwausbrooks
Post Number: 164
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 11:00 pm: | |
Bruno, I don't mean to pick an argument with you, but you state that the carbed cars sell for more than the injected cars? It's odd that you would say that when the opposite is true. The pecking order in the series has been (for the last 5 years or so) as follows:
1. 412 (the highest)
2. 400i
3. 365 GT4 2+2
4. 400 GT (the lowest)
But don't take my word for it. I'm sure you're aware of Gerald Roush's Ferrari Market Letter? In it, he tracks the ASKING prices of various models over a 2 year period. For the series, Gerald has them as such:
CURRENT:
365GT4 2+2...$27,825
400GT........$25,493
400i.........$28,983
412..........$42,738
6 MONTHS AGO:
365GT4 2+2...$28,367
400GT........$25,775
400i.........$29,294
412..........$43,785
1 YEAR AGO:
365GT4 2+2...$27,784
400GT........$25,451
400i.........$30,710
412..........$43,857
2 YEARS AGO:
365GT4 2+2...$26,149
400GT........$26,042
400i.........$31,433
412..........$46,879
As you can see, the carbed 400GT has always been the low man on the totem pole. I concur with your guess that the eBay car is probably reserved at or around $25K. If all is right with the car (including recent servicing!), $25K would be right on the money, but not "so cheap" as you stated before. |
Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member
Username: Originalsinner
Post Number: 456
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 10:14 pm: | |
As a 400 owner I can tell you the carbed cars sell for more than the injected cars in this series. Also the car on ebay either has the wrong front bumper or someone painted it the color of the car incorrectly.I am still researching it. I bet the reserve is 25k. That is what the car should sell for if everything is correct. A rat might sell for 15,900.00.Although I show the lowest price on the Hemmings site of 17900.00 since 1-1-02. I see a lot of 308's at 15k does that mean none should sell for 25k.The car in the dupont registry is a 5k original showroom car. I would give the guy 35k no problem if I was looking for a perfect tops down example concours quality show car.I wouldnt pay that and drive it. |
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Junior Member
Username: Lwausbrooks
Post Number: 163
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 6:53 pm: | |
Bruno, everything in DuPont is overpriced, always. Regardless, I looked at the cars listed at both DuPont's and Hemming's sites and they were all later injected cars. Besides, I'm sure you're aware that asking prices and actual selling prices are very different animals. Quickly thumbing through a copy of SCM on my desk, I found a red 1979 400GT with 62K miles that sold in Palm Springs for $15,225 including buyer's premium. Even if the 30K miles on the eBay car are real, how much more is it worth? Certainly not double.
Another thing that bothers me about this car is that the seller is adamant about not receiving any questions about the car's history or condition via e-mail. What that means is that he doesn't want any of his answers to those questions to be in writing.
Anyway, none of this matters. The car is bid up to over 23K and still hasn't reached reserve. There's no telling what he will let the car go for. |
Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member
Username: Originalsinner
Post Number: 454
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 6:46 pm: | |
I hate to speculate on car's and money.I never like to use the investment word anywhere's near them. But here is some info. You decide.
400-1976-1979 total production 502 cars.
400-UK right hand drive 85 cars.
400i-1979-1985 total production 1308 cars (NONE WERE MADE FOR US MARKET. ALL SOLD IN EUROPE)
400i-UK right hand drive 239 cars.
412-1985-1989- 576 cars
412-UK right hand drive 85 cars
This car for sale is 1 of 147 - 400's built with the manual gearbox.
Total cars in this 12 cylinder front engine series non UK drive-2386 cars |
Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member
Username: Originalsinner
Post Number: 452
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 6:31 pm: | |
Someone was looking for 1 on the chat. I hope he notices this thread. |
Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member
Username: Originalsinner
Post Number: 451
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 6:30 pm: | |
L.Wayne, they go for much more with 30k miles in great condition. There are several for sale in the low 40's.I also agree the mileage is hard to believe. I wonder if it has the original speedometer or if it's been changed.
other 400 listings:
www.dupontregistry.com
www.hmn.com
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Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member
Username: Miami348ts
Post Number: 2666
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, August 24, 2002 - 3:40 am: | |
very very nice car. 30K Miles kind of unbelievable but the overall condition appears very good looking at the photos.
Wasn't there somebody who wanted to buy one of these babies?
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L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Junior Member
Username: Lwausbrooks
Post Number: 158
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 23, 2002 - 6:24 pm: | |
Bruno, it's not my business but I don't see why you think this is so cheap. SCM has the 400 at $18,500-$24,000 with a $2,500 add for manual trans, putting this car at $21,000-$26,500. The car has currently been bid up to $22,100 but has not yet reached reserve. So you can guess reserve is anywhere from $23K-$25K, in the middle of the price guide per SCM and not exactly cheap. |
Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member
Username: Originalsinner
Post Number: 446
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 23, 2002 - 5:48 pm: | |
Mr. Doody. If it isnt much trouble look at it. I got a 400 and want to know why this one is so cheap. |
Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member
Username: Originalsinner
Post Number: 445
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 23, 2002 - 5:47 pm: | |
Rear suspension no problem before 83.
I found koni replacements. |
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 404
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Friday, August 23, 2002 - 4:21 pm: | |
if anyone is interested in this, i'd be happy to put a pair of eyes to it. my office isn't far from Tewksbury, and i've never seen one of these in the flesh before. note that i'm not a mechanic, but i can certainly do a reality check ("oh yeah - leather is perfect" type of stuff).
FYI - it would totally not be a hardship for the seller to bring it to Ferrari of New England (Newton) or The Boston Sportscar Company (Weston) for a PPI.
just drop me an email.
doody. |
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Junior Member
Username: Lwausbrooks
Post Number: 157
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 23, 2002 - 4:17 pm: | |
These cars have an oleopneumatic self-leveling rear suspension that is know to be problematic. By the way this one's sagging in the rear, I'd say someone needs to have a look at that rear suspension. |
Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member
Username: Originalsinner
Post Number: 444
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 23, 2002 - 4:09 pm: | |
Oh. It's not mine and I do not know the owner. Someone called me up and brought it to my attention. Up to 25k. No brainer. |
Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member
Username: Originalsinner
Post Number: 443
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 23, 2002 - 4:08 pm: | |
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1852377021 |
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