| Author | Message | ||
| Ron Thomas (Ronsupercar)
Member Username: Ronsupercar Post Number: 296 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ross, No harm taken.. Like I said, all in fun......  | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Junior Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 207 Registered: 4-2002 |
"A 12 cylinder engine can be perfectly balanced (primary) whenever the number of cranking degrees (720) divided by the number of cylinders (12) is bla bla bla to a multiple bla bla bla bla bla bla the banks. This bla bla bla bla bla cylinder bla bla bla bla bla bla bla bla 60, 120, 180,... " Hu? ... Right! Ya, what he said. Wow, $168,000? I was guessing no more than $130,000 USD. I am surprised the group does not feel the 512M will hold it's value into the future with a production run of less than half of the F40's. Nobody can argue it's a non desirable car like the 400i (no offence 400 owners, just an observation) I would assume this car to be quite desirable in ten to fifteen years time? Much more so than the TR or 512 I would imagine. For the price difference right now however, the 512TR does seem like a much better buy. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 126 Registered: 4-2002 |
Actually, you are both correct, the TR engine is a flat V12 or a 180 degree V12. A 12 cylinder engine can be perfectly balanced (primary) whenever the number of cranking degrees (720) divided by the number of cylinders (12) is equal to a multiple of the angle between the banks. This means you can balance a 12 cylinder engine with a bank angles of 60, 120, 180,... At 180 degrees of bank angle, you have two ways to arrange the throws on the crankshaft. Single pin (flat V12) and dual pin (horizontally opposed). Porsche engines are horizontally opposed and each piston balances the other as they move in opposite directions. Each side has perfect inline six cylinder breathing but each side is in phase with the other. Ferrari TR (and BB) engines are flat V12 with a single crank pin for a pair of cylinders, and are ballanced like a straight six, effectively becomming two six cylinder engines placed side to side. Each side has perfect inline six cylinder breathing but each side is out of phase with the other. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 253 Registered: 3-2002 |
ron, and an admirable effort as well. you could have answered like that ebay guy ! sorry for my terse correction, no harm meant. | ||
| Ron Thomas (Ronsupercar)
Member Username: Ronsupercar Post Number: 293 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ross, You are correct.. It was my mistake... Next time I will try to maintain some sort of composure so I can control myself from making unheard of mistakes like that again... ;) (all in fun) | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 251 Registered: 3-2002 |
flat 12. not a v | ||
| Ron Thomas (Ronsupercar)
Member Username: Ronsupercar Post Number: 292 Registered: 5-2002 |
I too feel the price is a bit high, but I like the style of the 512M.. A little more thought could have gone into the design of the rims.. Not only is there only 75 made for the US but it is also the last of the rear engine V12's.. I think in the future this will be a wonderful addition to any collector.....Michael Sheehan has a beautiful yellow one for sale now for 168K.........ron | ||
| Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Junior Member Username: Jh280774 Post Number: 70 Registered: 9-2001 |
Wondering why these cars are so expensive in the US. In Germany you can get the 512M for about 100000 Euros. IMO that�s still way to much if you compare it with the prices for a 512TR which comes along for 70000 up to 80000 Euros. BTW the prices I mentioned are from official Ferrari dealers! Bought from someone privately they should be even cheaper. Con saluti cordialissimi, Jens Haller P.S. Perhaps I should open business by buying Ferraris here in Germany and importing them to the US to sell them much more expensive. Well, think I go for ebay.com and put some pictures of my beautiful face on the page and wait for some bidders to buy my...cars | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Junior Member Username: Ross Post Number: 249 Registered: 3-2002 |
the total run was 500, 75 for usa. frankly not worth the money over the 512tr. performance difference virtually non-existant, and styling is just ugly (imho). they were trying the usual game of tarting up the last batch so that they could actually sell them, when the 550 production was looming so close. they might eventually garner some kind of collectibility due to the limited production but if that is not relevant to you, do yourself the favor and get a decent 512tr. and (although i am not recommending this), if you actually like the styling of the m, then buy a 512tr, and the m kit and have it put on. (there was a thread in here a while back about a guy in singapore who did that with his tr), and keep the original parts in the garage. that way you will spend max $5-10k more and have it both ways. | ||
| Francisco J. Quinones (Frankie)
New member Username: Frankie Post Number: 7 Registered: 8-2002 |
i agree Henryk,and in my opinion the tailights get kinda lost in such a wide rearend and the wheels look straight outta '93 trans am in a plus 2 size.16" on the t/a 18" and split rim on the 512M. | ||
| Henryk (Henryk)
Junior Member Username: Henryk Post Number: 206 Registered: 8-2001 |
With the TR's going in the 50-60's, and the 512TR's going in the 80-90's, then how can the 512M's go for $169,000? I know they only made 75 for the US market, but the style is nothing unique.....it STILL looks like a TR....thus I can't think of them as anything special, hence, I don't feel these will ever be a truely collectible item. IMO they are worth about $100K!!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| Francisco J. Quinones (Frankie)
New member Username: Frankie Post Number: 4 Registered: 8-2002 |
there are a couple for sale in the sept. issue of the dupont registry.Shelton in Florida is asking $169.900 for a black/tan w/11k miles on it. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Junior Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 201 Registered: 8-2002 |
Just some stats, take 'em or leave 'em: Per Ferrari, the 550 Maranello laps Fiorano in 1min 32sec, 3.2sec quicker than the F512M's best time. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 328 Registered: 1-2002 |
There were 75 built for the US. There were, I believe, 500 total F512M's built, according to Cavallino magazine. As for handling: mid engine will always out-handle front engine. However, in the hands of all but a professional driver (i.e., those of us who drive on track up to 8/10ths), they are very evenly matched. 512 is lighter & a bit more agile; 550 has much better brakes, better cooling, and is not prone to spinning, and is slightly faster accelerating. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1293 Registered: 2-2001 |
There were 75 F512Ms built. I prefer the looks of the 512TR. they r essentially the same car, except I think they Uglified the M with the front bumper, nasty wheels, & the rear tail lights just dont work on the TR. Another difference is the M is maybe 40# lighter & has maybe 25 more hp & it has titanium connecting rods. I can tell u how a 512TR compares with a 550M. Actually now that I think about it Ive never met a 550 M that was driven well so I cant really compare them too much. The weaknesses of the 512TR on the track r that it has a lot of weight in back so it will spin Very quickly, the oil heats up too fast & the brakes r mediocre. Ive solved both problems by adding a cooling fan to the oil cooler & I got the 1st set of Brembo F40 brakes which I will check out at Watkins Glen this weekend As for freeways, well thats what FCA trackdays r for. I imagine the 550 has better brakes than the earlier 512M, but the 512 seems to accelerate just as hard & will outhandle a 550 all day long | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Junior Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 200 Registered: 8-2002 |
Mitch, hope this helps: Cavallino: $115,000 - $160,000 SCM: $155,000 - $170,000 FML: $160,737 (avg asking price) In reality, who knows? I can't remember seeing one sell lately. | ||
| Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Member Username: Kennyh Post Number: 365 Registered: 8-2001 |
Here ya go: F512M Engine: Longitudinal, mid-mounted flat-12, light alloy cylinder block and head Bore & Stroke: 82x78 mm Unitary and Total Displacement: 412/4943 cc Compression Ratio: 10.4:1 Max. Power Output: 440 bhp at 6,750 rpm Max Torque: 500 Nm (51 kg) at 5,500 rpm Timing Gear: 4 valves per cylinder, twin overhead camshafts per cylinder bank Fuel Feed: Bosch Motronic 2.7 injection Ignition: Bosch Static electronic ignition Engine Weight: 224.5 kg Transmission: Dry, single-plate clutch, longitudinal 5-speed gearbox, limited-slip differential Chassis: Tubular Front Suspension: Independent, double unequal-length wishbones, coil springs, gas dampers, anti-roll bar Rear Suspension: Independent, double unequal-length wishbones, coil springs, gas dampers, anti-roll bar Brakes: Cross-drilled and ventilated discs, aluminum calipers, switchable Bosch ABS Steering: Rack and pinion Length: 4480 mm Width: 1976 mm Height: 1135 mm Wheelbase and Front/ Rear Track: 2,550/1,532/1,644 mm Dry Weight: 1455 kg Front Tyres: 235/40 ZR 18 Rear Tyres: 295/35 ZR 18 Fuel Tank: 110 litres in twin tanks (29 US gal.) Top Speed: 315 km/h (196 mph) 0 - 60 Mph: 0-100 km/h 4,7 s 0 - � Mile: 0-400 m 12,7 s 0 - 1 Mile: 0-1000 m 22,7 s | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Junior Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 206 Registered: 4-2002 |
I was thinking of buying a "classic" TR, but liked the front of the 512TR. After moving up that much in price, I figured why not just buy the "whole enchilada" So I am figuring out how much cheese I can afford so to speak. I know there are very very few of them, and none may be for sale. However, if one did come on the market, how much would you say would be fair? Am I safe to assume their prices are slightly under the 550's? Also, how does the performance of the 512M compare to that of the 550? Not so much in the 1/4th mile but on the freeway and in the corners and in breaking? |