| Author | Message | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 2814 Registered: 5-2001 |
Terry, if you take the time writing we will take the time readin. Thanks for your input. You have knowledge and we are glad you pass it along. Thanks | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 320 Registered: 8-2001 |
Thanks everyone for the great information. | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 111 Registered: 9-2001 |
I have to qualify this statement by first saying that I do not own a Ferrari, but I will. I have a good amount of experience with them and have cared for a handful for periods as long as a 4 months. I have also driven a considerable number of different models for a good amount of milage. I am also very active and with the local Ferrari Club and have good relations with many different owners. I have to also say that I am a bigot, Ferraris are very special to me, and all statements are with bias in favor of Ferrari, but I also do understand that objectively they are far from the best cars in the world. If someone is looking for the very best car in the world it will not be an italian car. These cars have MANY quirks, from my limited experience. The best all around Ferrari and the car I have the most experience with is the 328 GTS. It offers adequate horse power for city streets, great looks with top on or off, relatively good reliability, open air motoring, resonable initial cost and a great feel. Some areas where they fall short is, headroom, airconditioning is subpar, in comparison to modern car technology they are underpowered, and in comparison to Acuras or corvettes the reliability and maintance is very expensive. Although my Acura parts were not cheap. If you want a very good entry level Ferrari, the 328 is it for me. I know at least 3 Mondial owners that struggle with problems related to electrical. Relays seem to be a common problem. They also seem to be an easily and relatively inexpensive to fix, the relays and electrical problems I am refering to. All that I have read, reads that the build quality of early 348s is the worst from Maranello. Every 348 (5) I have driven was very well put together and had a fabulous sound and feel. Horsepower advantage was very noticably over the 328. I don't know if Montezemolo's intention was to appeal to women or to a less sporting clientele or not, but I do know that they had less problems with build quality and the company had a big turn around under his direction. Some say that the cars became more easily driven, but I do not find any of them hard to drive. I more find it an honor. I find the older cars to be more fun at lower speeds. I have a great time driving a friends 206 dino around town and never getting above 70mph, where in a 355 that would not be as much fun. On the other hand a 355 would be much more fun than a dino on an open road where you could achieve higher speeds or on the track. The top end and acceleration of the newer cars, scares me a little as the car comes alive at a higher speed and therefor will surpass my driving skills more easily. The 328 is a happy medium, it is fast enough to keep up with most cars on the street and is not too fast. Not to say that the 328 is not surpassed my skills, because it does. The sound of different models is really not that big of an issue to me. They all sound great at 4000 rpm and above. With or without Tubi or Borla. Horsepower advantages are all suspect, I have never seen a before and after dyno on a car with stock exhaust and then with tubi. I suspect that if it sounds "cooler" you feel like you are going faster. I have heard that the maintanence is more expensive on the 348 compared to the 355, but I have no first hand experience. I would doubt it would be half the price though. Call a service and get a quote on the price. The "greatest sports car of all time" title has been owned by so many cars it is impossible to judge. You will have to make that determination through your own experience. Electrical grounds have been a problem for most 360 owners I know. Batteries seem to drain on a friends car all too often, but again that could be from lack of use. I have heard that the 328 and 512TR are the most reliable Ferraris and the 355 is close, but still has some issues with exhaust. It is all relative you may buy a 328 and it be the worst Ferrari ever and you may buy a Mondial and it be the best. But Dave328GTB is right none will be close to Toyota reliability. I know my opinion is not worth the space it is written in, because I do not own a Ferrari, but from the limited experience I have this is what I have discovered. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1933 Registered: 2-2001 |
The TR I had in my shop a few weeks ago is the most ill shifting vehicle that I have ever driven. My personal 308 is the best shifting Ferrari that I have driven and others agree. The TR needs power steering as it is a bear to drive when you are used to driving with P.S. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Junior Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 236 Registered: 1-2002 |
Dave, At least with models before 1995, 2 cars of the same year and model drive a little differently. I had a 94 348 TB that was a lousy shifter. Others say theirs are fine. I had a 87 328 GTS that wasn't a good shifter either. However, my current 89 328 is the best shifting Ferrari I have had (out of 6). The majority of opinion would say 328's are the most reliable and least costly to maintain and my own experience backs that up. However, no model is going to remind you of a Toyota quality wise (or in any other way for that matter). As others have said, drive them and buy the one that YOU like. Dave | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1932 Registered: 2-2001 |
I don't understand that comment. My opinions rarely change. Give examples please. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1338 Registered: 9-2001 |
Edward, my how your comments have changed since you bought your Chevy. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1929 Registered: 2-2001 |
Dave, you just stated that you fell in love with the beauty of Ferrari. There is a big difference between beauty and character. That's why there are so many divorces. I was simply trying to state that seeing one can be a totally different experience than living with one. A Ferrari General Manager is a poor person to rely on to judge his own product. An Independent would be more objective in my opinion. I do not have experience with many models of Ferraris to give honest evaluations therefore I withhold comments about what I do not know about. I will say the models that I do have experience with fall short of their competition in many areas. Granted they do not have the beauty, but the luster will soon fade if there is no substance behind the appearance. No harm to you or anyone else was meant by my remarks only to make a point for people to only comment on what they know to be true, versus hearsay. | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 319 Registered: 8-2001 |
Edward, I disagree. I first started falling in love with the beauty of Ferraris while seeing them for rent in Las Vegas a year and a half ago. Have driven several and will drive three more this weekend for possible purchase. I clearly stated at the beginning of my post that this is what I have read or been told. Is it accurate? None of the opinions are my own. The information comes from FORZA Magazine, a person with first hand experience with far more than 20 Ferraris, and the General Manager of a large Ferrari Dealership who has more than 30 years experience with Ferraris. Do you have as much experience???? Even considering the sources, there could be other sides of the coin: like Frank said the shifting is different, but not a problem on the 348. Winston Goodfellow from FORZA Magazine says it is a problem. Do you know as much as he does? Knowing both sides enables me to make a more informed decision when I drive one tomorrow for possible purchase. Gives me things to look for. I think your comments are inappropiate. | ||
| Richelson (Richelson)
Member Username: Richelson Post Number: 815 Registered: 12-2001 |
There isn't much of a difference IMHO between a 308QV and a 328 in reliability. The engines are practically identical with the exception of .2L diff. Same Bosch FI, Timing Belt System, Ignition etc. I don't see how someone could assume that an 86' 328 is much more reliable than a 85' 308 QV. The interior electrical, switches etc. I could see causing more trouble since at this point it was a new design. I think any 308 QV and 328 are going to be around the same reliability wise. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 1927 Registered: 2-2001 |
How can anyone love something that they don't own? It is possible to fall in love with a myth, whereas the actual reality is totally different. This has been my complaint with non owners posting opinions about something that they know absolutely nothing about having no hands on personal experience. Asking questions is fine, but, believe me, actually owning a vehicle is totally different than reading about someone elses opinion in a Magazine. I try to look at the machine versus what name plate is affixed to it and be objectionable and unprejudiced when I give an opinion, and with as much hands on experience as possible. | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 318 Registered: 8-2001 |
Also, one can many times learn much from others' subjective opinions. Sometimes it is the only source of information. However, it is best to try to verify the information. Ferrarichat is just one means. One person might give information that they think is true. However, their experience might be the exception or their desired set of compromises might be totally different. | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 317 Registered: 8-2001 |
I did not mean to put down any Ferraris since I think they are all great. However, each one has its strengths and weaknesses - most of the time in life to get one advantage one has to give up something else. For example, if one wants a bigger car, they might have to accept more weight and less speed. I have exact needs I am trying to meet and trying to find the best set of compromises. If a Ferrari cannot meet the needs, then will go on to another brand. I thought I had the best set of compromises selected (348 Spider), then new information became available. This did not rule out the 348 Spider, but I thought I should revisit my decision to see if another set of compromises would be better. Also love Ferraris and enjoy learning about them. | ||
| Greg Owens (Owens84qv)
Member Username: Owens84qv Post Number: 521 Registered: 10-2001 |
Dave, I fail to understand how you can judge a car (308/328 vs TR) "on the twisties" if you haven't driven one. After driving my 308 in VA for a year where there are plenty of "twisties", my 308 had plenty more than I could handle. You've made a lot of subjective comments. You really need to drive each of the models you are considering in the manner that you want to use the car. Each model has its likes and dislikes. But please drive 'em before you judge 'em. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 2795 Registered: 5-2001 |
The difference in the cost of the engine out service between a 355 and a 348 is insignificant. The 348 needs to have the valves shimmed when the engine is out. Cost of the shimmes is in total not more than $20 and the extra time is about 2-3 hours. So here is your $300 upgrade from the 348 to the 355. A full engine out requires some 40 hours of labor and some $1000 in parts. Most to be exchanged preventively. The big plus of the early models is you were able to do the belt change yourself. No way here unless you have a lift. Mondial electrical problems, only to the extent of the problems the 2 seater counter parts were facing as well and the added rear window that could potentially fail (and does). The 355 being more comfortable to appeal to women is a new one for me. They have done some interior styling chnages just as they did with the 308 to 328 upgrade. Otherwise it is the same exact interior room and height and all the rest. The door handles upset people because it takes brains to open these doors. As they always did BTW, just look at the 308 and the hidden 355. Make them think before they get in.  You must distinguish between the different modelts at its time. Of course the 360 is the better car than the 308. Of course the 348 is not as technically advanced as the 355, neither is the 355 as advanced as the 360 etc. | ||
| Patrick S. Perry (Psp1)
Junior Member Username: Psp1 Post Number: 107 Registered: 3-2001 |
Dave, another consideration is how you are going to use the car. If we are talking about a weekend fun car/occasional use vs a daily driver, then the TR with street legal semi-slicks may be an option. My 88TR has Kumho Victoracers on it which are dramatically stickier than conventional street tires. I live in Southern California so I don't really have to concern myself with driving when wet or snowy - it would probably not be fun. I'm told that they should last 4-5,000 miles with spirited but not track level driving which equates to about 2 years of use. I don't race so I don't have hard data on comparative performance but "seat of the pants" feel says that it's superior to 348/355 with street tires. | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 316 Registered: 8-2001 |
Frank, I have noticed that your knowledge is generally quite good. As such, I will take another look at the TR. With current knowledge, I think a 348 or higher will be better for twisties, while a TR will be better for straight acceltration (sp). Not for sure, how a 308/328 would compare to a TR for twisties, but I think probably worse. Have not ruled a 348 out since I know that everything has advantanges and disadvantages. Reaching a good balance between advantages and disadvantages eliminates disappointment. | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 315 Registered: 8-2001 |
Love the looks of a TR. However, I want a Ferrari for twisties. Other Ferraris are better for that. So, while loving the TR, it is not the right car for me. As for the other, as we used to say in US Army Atomic Demolation Mutions School (Honor Graduate), when in doubt, Nuke em. As a semi-expert in Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical Warfare (also former paratrooper, special forces, Engineer Officer), I am generally against war. However, it sometimes has to be done. A dirty but necessary business considering human nature. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1331 Registered: 9-2001 |
The 348 uses a cable linkage rather than a rod linkage like most other Ferraris. I have a 348 Spider and have had a 330GTC, TR, 400GT and 328GTS and havn't noticed a difference in the way my 348 shifts compared to my other Ferraris. I have heard that early 308 Mondials had a lot of electrical problems . But, I have never owned one. The 328 was a vast improvement over the 308 including better reliability. The 355 is not any more reliable than either the 348 or 328. I believe the 328 is in fact more reliable than the 348 and 355. The only savings in maintenance a 355 has over a 348 is valve adjustment since the 355 has hydrolic valves. But, the 355 has its own assorted problems that are not cheap. I had a 1986 TR and loved it. Drive one before you exclude it from your consideration. At todays prices you get a lot of car for the money with a TR. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2100 Registered: 12-2000 |
Mondial owners: do Mondials have more electrical problems than other Ferraris? Not that I know of, I think the electrical system would be equivalent to it's comparable 2 seater. Mondial 8 and 308, Mondial 3.2 and 328, and Mondial t and 348. Is the 328 engine significantly more reliable than the 308? I don't think so. 308's may have more "age" problems, but so will the 328, it's just lagging a little. I think the only slight appeal of the 328 over the 308's is more power and an updated look. It appears that the 355 is more reliable than the 328 or 348. Is the improvement significient? I think the 355 is the most reliable Ferrari. Starting with the 355 Ferrari had a true daily driver. Look at all the 5 year old 355's with 30k+ miles. Usually the most you see on pre 355's is 3k miles a year. Although I have heard of 355's loosing a belt and have major $$$ to rebuild the bank. Maybe they do have the same belt risks as the older cars, but they're so new, it hasn't happened to many yet. Are the maintenance costs of a 355 really half that of a 348? I don't know the answer, but remember that more 348's at this time have required the major service, only now are the 355's starting to need the major. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Junior Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 177 Registered: 7-2002 |
Not interested in a TR?!?!?!? Blasphemy I say!!!!You must be one of them Talibanies.... | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 314 Registered: 8-2001 |
I read in FORZA that the shifting feel on the 348 is much worse than any other Ferrari. Is there any truth to this? Is it very important? Mondial owners: do Mondials have more electrical problems than other Ferraris? Is the 328 engine significantly more reliable than the 308? It appears that the 355 is more reliable than the 328 or 348. Is the improvement significient? Are the maintenance costs of a 355 really half that of a 348? Not interested in a TR. But was curious if what I was told is correct. | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 451 Registered: 3-2001 |
The 308/328s are much better to service IMHO than the 348 and 355. The 30K can be done with the engine in the car on the 308/328. On the 348 it has to come out. Plus I believe the 348 used one single timing belt for both sides. I like the 348 but I do feel that the 308/328 are much easier to service. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 144 Registered: 4-2002 |
Mr Ferrari was only really interested in racing and racing cars. It was Chinetti (sp) that convinced Mr. Ferrari that he could support his fledgling company by selling lightly modified racing cars to rich people in America. This proved to be true until the cost structures of racing got out of hand in the late 1960's and early 1970's. Ferrari was sold to FIAT in a manner that allowed Enzo to continue racing unimpeeded by street car issues and by the FIAT brass. 348: FORZA magazine has an excellent article on the 348s about 5 months ago. Maintanence was insignificantly different from the 328/308 predicessors--the engine had to come out every 15K miles. The 348 used a dry sump system that allowed lowering the engine in the bay by just over 2" and reduced the center of gravity by useful amounts. Montezumolo improved quality of the 348 build markedly over its production life. The 348 moved the radiators back to the engine bay and centralized the mass of the car. This contributed to handling in the hands of experts, and contributed to instability in the hands of fools. All Ferraris are getting quieter. This is due to noise regulations here and abroad. Becomming more reliable was also a requirement to meet the 100,000 mile emission requirements. I don't think Ferrari tries to capture any particular sound for any particular engine. They design and engineer an exhaust and intake system that allow maximum power from the (street) engine. The sound is a direct result of this engineering. The straight inlet tracks, header exhausts, flat plane crankshafts, agressive breathing with somewhat mild cams all contribute to the sound. Incedently, much of the sound comes from the intake system (foom) rather than the exhaust (rasp) in a F355. The F360 has a dual resonant intake system that boosts the midrange of the power curve without sacrificing the top end. This gives the tone of the engine 2 notes that co-resonate. Some prefer the single tone intake sound on the F355--but all would like the added midrange power. | ||
| Gene Agatep (Gagatep)
New member Username: Gagatep Post Number: 13 Registered: 8-2002 |
Dave, the perception you have on the 348 may be a common market perception which makes the car underated and undervalued. Having the oppportunity to drive a 308, 328, and a 348 - HP Bang per buck - 348 all the way for me. As far as serviceability, 308, 328 are transverse engines which makes it difficult to service the bank closest to the cockpit and clutch job has to be done under a wheel well - 348's are easier to do due to the room you have to work with on a longitudinal config - plugs are easier to get to and the clutch is easier to get to. Before getting my 348, I considered 308's and 328's, and eventually decided to go with the 348 due to performance and value. But of course, when time comes for upgrade 355, 360, TR, 550, .... I'm rambling - that's another story. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 450 Registered: 11-2001 |
dave: i think you've mostly asked subjective questions, so "correct" is fuzzy. there's always some reviewer who will call whatever johnny-come-today the "greatest". there are always plusses and minuses. i love my 355, but i can imagine there are other cars "greater" than it as it concerns "sports car" behavior. the "goodness" of a tubi is really subjective. ferraris vary. my mechanics (and tubi dealer) bugged me for a couple visits that i should consider a tubi. on the third visit he took my car for an extended test drive and came back and said i didn't need a tubi - that ferrari got my exhaust really right (i wasn't seriously considering it). use your own ears to judge. all 355s scream like banshees at high revs. if this is "did not get it right" then i'm certainly no worse for the wear ;-). i knew a guy with a 355 who had a tubi and it annoyed the crap out of his neighbors because it resonated so low/loud in the parking garage. what are you collecting this data for? are you trying to get through some weeding-out process? the 328, TR, and 355 are quite different cars in so many respects. doody | ||
| Allen Shelley (Allen_97_993)
New member Username: Allen_97_993 Post Number: 11 Registered: 3-2002 |
I can't help with any of the questions, but I would suggest numbering your questions so someone might be able to address at some of them, if not all of them. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2094 Registered: 12-2000 |
Umm, I think this is a hard post to offer a reply. It would take a novel and most answers will be an opinion anyway. I'll get out of this one easy by saying read the 80k messages that have been posted here the past couple years, plus stay tuned for the millions to come over the next several decades. Did I help? lol | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 313 Registered: 8-2001 |
I have also been told the added performance of a 360 over the 355 makes the 360 more likely to bite in the wrong hands. True? | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 312 Registered: 8-2001 |
I just became interested in Ferraris a year and a half ago. As such I do not have long term knowledge. Following is from what I have read and what people have told me. Is it correct? Also, someone might have experience with just an example or two of a model, and the experience might not be typical of the majority. Do not mean to upset anyone, this is just what I have been told and read. Mondials seem to have much more electrical problems than other Ferraris. Maybe it is because Ferrari used the Mondail to release and try new technologies. Mr. Ferrari was only interested in speed and beauty, not any creature comforts. He died around the time the 348 was coming out. The 348 was considered a design triumph in terms of beauty, but the early 348s had the worse quality control of any Ferrari. For some reason the door handles seemed to upset many people. Ferrari sales tanked. Ferrari racing tanked. Many of the mechanical and quality control issues had been solved by the time the Spider came out. However, it was still not up to normal Ferrari standards. However, it was a fun machine, a modern car, and cheaper than its successors. Maintenance was higher than earlier cars due to the need for engine removal for service. Owners seem to love the later 348s, but many magazines do not. A friend of the Ferrari family was brought in to turn the declining Ferrari around. One of his directives was that the next Ferrari would appeal to women and that it would also appeal to people who have had sporting cars rather than true sports cars. This is a two edged sword. One is that it made the 355 less exhausting on long trips. However, this also made it less exciting to drive to a restaurant. One many times has to drive faster to get the same effect as driving the earlier Ferraris. The sound of a 348 and earlier is improved by straight pipes or a Tubi. Ferrari tried to capture that sound on the 355, but did not get it right above 4,000 RPM. So a Tubi is still good for a 355. The maintenance costs for a 355 are about half the cost of a 348 due to things like self adjusting valves. Half seems a little high. Several sources have called the 355 the greatest sports car of our time. On the 360, Ferrari finally got the exhaust right so a Tubi on a 360 does not have as much effect as previous models. However, the 360 does have problems with electrical grounds. The 3 most reliable engines Ferrari has ever made are the 328, 355, and TR. Is this information correct? |