| Author | Message | ||
| Ansgar Schürmeyer (Taunus)
Junior Member Username: Taunus Post Number: 59 Registered: 6-2002 |
Some more pics: http://www.ferrariphoto.net/data%20enzo.html | ||
| William Henderson (Billh)
New member Username: Billh Post Number: 22 Registered: 5-2002 |
The track determines what wing profile or angle of attack that it is set to. you dont get something for nothing, the more downforce you want to generate, the more drag you will encounter which limits your top end. if your track is more twisty than straighty then you might want a more aggressive wing for quicker manuevering. | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 365 Registered: 8-2001 |
I think the Enzo is a great car. Unless Rob will also loan me a credit card, cannot afford one, and I am also interested in street cars. However, from a very reliable source, Ferrari considers the Enzo as a collector car. As such one of the prime deciding factors on who gets one is how many collectable Ferraris the person already has. Street Ferraris do not count. This should also have an advantage of cutting down on flipping. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 168 Registered: 4-2002 |
Front wings on F1 venturi cars are trim tabs--used to adjust the balance between front and rear. Rear Wings on the latter F1 venturi cars were used to create a low pressure region into which the underbody venturis air would flow; making the venturi that much more efficient. All race cars have wings because the rules allow them to get away with it, and when used correctly are highly effective. When used incorrectly they may be not much better than spoilers, but are still better than not running the wing. With the low speed wing package, they could run on the ceiling as low as 70 MPH or so, with the high speed wing package they can run on the ceiling closer to 120 MPH. | ||
| nick l (Nsxnick)
New member Username: Nsxnick Post Number: 48 Registered: 7-2001 |
i heard that an f1 car produces so much downforce that at 115mph it can theoretically drive upsidedown on the ceiling. | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 588 Registered: 3-2002 |
Bret, actually it's more beneficial to use the full length of the underbody to create downforce than to use wings. Remember the ground effects F1 cars? They started removing their front wings because their disruption of the air feeding the venturis far outweighed their aero-downforce gains. Underbody aerodynamics are only practical on a low-sitting car, as aero efficiency is most efficient close to the ground. I also read where aero wings don't provide a benefit until the vehicle reaches a speed of around 75 mph, at which point they make cheaper, simpler add-ons for racing. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2689 Registered: 2-2001 |
Why do they put wings on every single sports car that is racing if they are so ineffectual and underbody aerodynamics are far superior? When was the last time you saw a race car without a wing, even in race classes which have no rules against having underbody aerodynamics? Ferrari puts a wing on the 360GT right from the factory? It seems to me that if all of these big money companies are using rear wings there has to be an advantage. A car with great underbody properties creates a bit of downforce, the same car with a wing creates more, it's common sense. Yes you guys are right that if it's not done right it could be detrimental, but we have to assume that it is done correctly. The other thing to remember is that pure race cars like Formula 1 cars have essentially nothing to do with street cars, they run like an inch off the ground which greatly changes their downforce abilites, in particular the underbody's potential for downforce. It is better to compare cars like the Prodrive 550 and the new 360GTs, which have actual road car properties. It's pretty tough to make an argument against wings when every race car has them. They definitely serve a purpose, it's simply if their added downforce is needed, which for a road car it most likely isn't. Regardless, I think the underbody diffusers are great on a street car because you can get enough downforce for a road car and still have it look sleek if you desire. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 166 Registered: 4-2002 |
If you (bother) to read "Race car aerodynamics" It will tell you that when you are dealing with cars that have underbody aerodynamics, you don't want the wing in the position most people associate with wings--namely; above the rear end of the car. If you position the wing 1.2 to 1.5 chord lengths behind the car 1 chord length above the end of the car <and> the low pressure region under the wing will accentuate the <alreaady> underbody aerodynamics, increasing the downforce with minimal drag. Ever see anyone driving around with a wing hung off the back? If, on the other hand, you mount the wing in the conventional position, just above the rear end of the car--the rear deck of the car prevents the curved lower side of the wing from generating any useful amounts of low pressure area, and <basically> the wing is operating like a spoiler. By and large, the wings are mounted too close (vertically) to the rear of the car, and angled into the perceived direction of the airflow rather than the actual direction of the airflow; often operating in pure stall. Anyone remember why bi-planes and tri-planes fell out of fashion? Aerodynamics is non-intuitive. And with the advent of underbody aerodymanics placing a wing where it "looks good" often does more harm to handling than good. Final note: the wing on the Countach did more harm than good to the looks of that car. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 2921 Registered: 5-2001 |
great, I am waiting next to may mailbox to see if I get the letter asking me for color and leather options. I guess I am getting mine after all! | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Junior Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 249 Registered: 2-2001 |
Agree that the performance advantage of a wing on a street car might best be observed at a disco. That said, even a track car w/fenders feels added grip w/properly sorted wing/splitter combo. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 476 Registered: 2-2002 |
If you aren't into the Fast & the Furious rice rocket thing massive wings on street cars are passe. As far as wings on F1, CART etc., they might have been gone long ago if it weren't for the fact that they couldn't replace the billboard space. | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Junior Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 248 Registered: 2-2001 |
Think street F40 wings may have been largely styling cues rather than functional as the race counterpart had a very different rear wing in addition to front splitter (pretty much required to prevent lift if the rear wing actually functions). | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 453 Registered: 2-2002 |
Bret - you're right about one thing though - no-one wants a HYPERCAR unless it carries a prancing horse on the front. Oh - and that WAS BULLSHIT about being invited to buy an Enzo - if you had 3-4 Ferraris already and were reasonably well-known to your dealer and had started pressing them a couple of years ago you would be on the list to get one. | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 452 Registered: 2-2002 |
My 2 cents coming up: I think the Enzo looks AWESOME. I GUARANTEE that this car will grow on a lot of people once they've seen it a few times. I think MASSIVE wings are not necessary any more - they look great on some cars (countach, F40/F50 etc) but nowadays you just dont need one for a road-car no matter how extreme it is - Bret - you're wrong mate - WHY? Because wings are COMPARATIVELY ineffectual when compared to diffusers in generating downforce - ask any F1 engineer. So why do F1 cars have 'em? Because they NEED 'em - why? Because regulations mean that they are not allowed to have flat underbodies like the Enzo can have and moving aerodynamic parts which make aerodynamic loads consistent and adjustable like the Enzo has. Too much downforce crushes a car onto it's springs, wrecks the handling and can make the car dangerously critical when driving on the limit (imagine - get the car sideways and the airflow is changed meaning downforce is changed meaning grip levels are changed..... ) - acceptable on an F1 car - BAD on a road car. | ||
| Bart Boonacker (Sharky666)
New member Username: Sharky666 Post Number: 5 Registered: 9-2002 |
Wooow, I can't wait to get there, we're gonna be visiting Paris hopefully friday, if we can arrange the tickets. And then it's drooling time  Someone might have a tip to get a real close look on the Enzo (except for trying not to drool) ? Don't think it's possible to sit in it, do you ? | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2684 Registered: 2-2001 |
Ferrari is a master of B.S., working on the cars teaches you that. BUT they're the only exotic worth getting so just accept it. Every other exotic is arguably a piece of sh_t IMO, even those pompous British cars are. You can say whatever you want, how you owned this car and it was great, but working on them all has shown me personally that Ferrari is the only one worth my money. If I was Nelson Rockefeller maybe I would make stupid $300K purchases, but unfortunately (or maybe fortunately) I'm not. That said, you simply can not have as much downforce without a wing. As Ernesto says though, there's a limit to the amount you need on a street car. Now street Ferrari needs a wing to be honest and Pininfarina's designs seem to lean towards aesthetically not having one. The cars we all have are street cars, they may be fast, but they're not even close to race cars so why bother with slapped on downforce, etc. BUT the super-Ferraris like the F40, F50, and now the Enzo are supposed to be near race cars. Cars capable of doing some serious track time right from the factory. Therefore they should have a wing IMO. I think the F40 and F50 are gorgeous looking cars and you see the big spoiler sitting over 13" wide tires and you know it's a bad ass car. Hey it may not be the prettiest to some, but you know it moves whether you think it looks good or not. This Enzo is odd, I like it a lot for some reason though. I have some gripes with it. In particular it's movement down the line to becoming a pig. 185" long and 3000lbs? What the hell is going on here. Think about what this thing would be like if it weighed 2500lbs or 2000lbs. Ferraris cars are getting too heavy. When you start with a heavy car you limit your potential so much. The fact that you could make a $35K Cobra replica out accelerate it seems a bit ridiculous to me. You can make the 2500-2600lb F40s and F50s as fast as any street car ever really made because they are as light as any reasonable sports cars were ever made. Ferrari is executing their soul in search of profits, but that's what's cool nowadays if you own a car company. | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 266 Registered: 10-2001 |
So all that "being invited by Ferrari" to get one is bulshit ? How can Ferrari pretends that and sell two Enzo to a Dealer? No offense , its just business | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 698 Registered: 2-2001 |
Sorry, I don't have statistics on how much downforce a racecar needs, or how much MORE downforce from a STREET car a race car needs. The 360Modena is a street car, and the 360GT is designed for the track. Hence, two different needs. I would assume the wings adds downforce over and beyond that of a STREET 360. If you are implying that a street 360 should have enough downforce to compete professionally on the track, then that is another matter... Ernesto | ||
| Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member Username: Davewapinski Post Number: 356 Registered: 8-2001 |
I have been told that the 360 has over 800 pounds of downforce at speeds. That the 360 will compress the shocks at full speed because of all the downforce. If this is true, why the need for wings? | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 696 Registered: 2-2001 |
Racing and street driving are two different things, wouldnt you agree? Requirements for the track are much greater than for the street, the Prodrive Maranello has a wing, as do most racing cars, to maximize downforce. For the street, I have never noticed at need for a wing. Ernesto | ||
| David Albright (Dalbright)
Member Username: Dalbright Post Number: 408 Registered: 2-2001 |
None of the cars mentioned had wings and the 360 was supposed to have all the downforce in the world, yet when they are placed on the track for racing, they all had wings! | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 694 Registered: 2-2001 |
The TR had no wing, neither did the 308, 328, 348, 550, 456, GTO, etc etc etc. My thinking is that if it doesn't NEED a wing, please dont put it on. If you really think about it, most Ferraris dont have wings. They ruined the Countach and Diablo by putting wings on it (something Audi finally fixed). I read that the wing on the Countach takes off like 8mph on top speed... Ernesto | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1420 Registered: 2-2001 |
I like it better now than before, still havent seen 1 in the flesh though. What does Ferrari have against wings now ? the F40 & F50 both had nice bit fat stomping wings, ever since the 360 Ferrari wants all the aero aids Under the car, Great but it doesnt look as good as a Big Fat wing | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member Username: Benjet Post Number: 804 Registered: 1-2001 |
I'd like to place an order for both... on the FC.com charge account please, while Rob is away at Indy for F1. Sorry MEW I couldn't resist. ;) -Ben | ||
| TAKO (Tako)
Junior Member Username: Tako Post Number: 62 Registered: 4-2002 |
Drool..... | ||
| Michael E. Weaver (Exoticcarworld)
New member Username: Exoticcarworld Post Number: 10 Registered: 8-2002 |
We are negotiating to buy an option on one now. If anyone is serious about buying a US enzo have them call me directly. I am realitively sure we will have access to one possibly two. Mike | ||
| Ryanab (Ryanab)
Junior Member Username: Ryanab Post Number: 115 Registered: 3-2002 |
Yellow, Yellow, Yellow !! | ||
| TAKO (Tako)
Junior Member Username: Tako Post Number: 61 Registered: 4-2002 |
I would even sell my Murcie for this | ||
| TAKO (Tako)
Junior Member Username: Tako Post Number: 60 Registered: 4-2002 |
Now I think I wanna get one!!! | ||
| D B (Threesixty)
Junior Member Username: Threesixty Post Number: 61 Registered: 8-2002 |
WOW, that black looks amazing!!! I'd take one in any colour. TAKO, are you getting one? | ||
| TAKO (Tako)
Junior Member Username: Tako Post Number: 57 Registered: 4-2002 |
I want oneeeeeeeeeeee. | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 262 Registered: 10-2001 |
I love the car ..! The red one is gorgeous , the Yellow one is awesome and the black one is beautiful | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 261 Registered: 10-2001 |
here are some pics i took .. http://speed.supercars.net/Board?viewThread=y&fID=3&tID=20434 | ||
| Ansgar Schürmeyer (Taunus)
Junior Member Username: Taunus Post Number: 57 Registered: 6-2002 |
Some more: http://speed.supercars.net/Pic?s=13&dir=2002-8-27&p=a&f=3&t=19915&m=350146 http://speed.supercars.net/Pic?s=13&dir=2002-8-27&p=b&f=3&t=19915&m=350146 http://speed.supercars.net/Pic?s=13&dir=2002-8-27&p=c&f=3&t=19915&m=350146 http://speed.supercars.net/Pic?s=13&dir=2002-8-27&p=d&f=3&t=19915&m=350146 http://www.supercars.net/Pic?s=6&y=2002&m=Ferrari&o=Enzo&t=5&msg=369&pn=b.jpg http://www.supercars.net/Pic?s=6&y=2002&m=Ferrari&o=Enzo&t=5&msg=369&pn=c.jpg http://www.supercars.net/Pic?s=6&y=2002&m=Ferrari&o=Enzo&t=5&msg=369&pn=d.jpg http://www.supercars.net/Pic?s=6&y=2002&m=Ferrari&o=Enzo&t=5&msg=370&pn=a.jpg http://www.supercars.net/Pic?s=6&y=2002&m=Ferrari&o=Enzo&t=5&msg=370&pn=b.jpg http://www.supercars.net/Pic?s=6&y=2002&m=Ferrari&o=Enzo&t=5&msg=370&pn=c.jpg http://www.supercars.net/Pic?s=6&y=2002&m=Ferrari&o=Enzo&t=5&msg=370&pn=d.jpg http://www.supercars.net/Pic?s=6&y=2002&m=Ferrari&o=Enzo&t=5&msg=371&pn=a.jpg http://www.supercars.net/Pic?s=6&y=2002&m=Ferrari&o=Enzo&t=5&msg=371&pn=b.jpg http://www.supercars.net/Pic?s=6&y=2002&m=Ferrari&o=Enzo&t=5&msg=371&pn=c.jpg http://www.supercars.net/Pic?s=6&y=2002&m=Ferrari&o=Enzo&t=5&msg=371&pn=d.jpg http://www.supercars.net/Pic?s=6&y=2002&m=Ferrari&o=Enzo&t=5&msg=372&pn=a.jpg http://www.supercars.net/Pic?s=6&y=2002&m=Ferrari&o=Enzo&t=5&msg=372&pn=b.jpg http://www.supercars.net/Pic?s=6&y=2002&m=Ferrari&o=Enzo&t=5&msg=372&pn=c.jpg | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 417 Registered: 11-2001 |
Where do I sign up? Oh never mind, $1000 per horsepower is much more than my wallet can afford. | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member Username: Benjet Post Number: 802 Registered: 1-2001 |
First time for me seeing it in Black. I'm warming up to it...just a tad now... Who thinks Black is the only color to go with (out of the 3 available) if they were to obtain one? I normally shy away from Black cars, but this one well...I think the dark color (as opposed to the bright) softens the hard angles/edges that many are not as fond of. -Ben | ||
| Ansgar Schürmeyer (Taunus)
Junior Member Username: Taunus Post Number: 56 Registered: 6-2002 |
Just heared on tv, that Ferrari will produce 399 Enzos, because there are so many possible costumers. Here are some pics from the Paris Motor Show: http://speed.supercars.net/Pic?s=13&dir=2002-8-27&p=a&f=3&t=20434&m=350016 http://speed.supercars.net/Pic?s=13&dir=2002-8-27&p=a&f=3&t=20434&m=350017 http://speed.supercars.net/Pic?s=13&dir=2002-8-27&p=a&f=3&t=20434&m=350025 http://speed.supercars.net/Pic?s=13&dir=2002-8-27&p=a&f=3&t=20434&m=350027 http://speed.supercars.net/Pic?s=13&dir=2002-8-27&p=a&f=3&t=20434&m=350198 |