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Ken (Allyn)
Member
Username: Allyn

Post Number: 516
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Friday, October 04, 2002 - 11:06 am:   

In the novel "The Viper Pit" I just finished, the heroine drives a 1972 (?) BMW CSL. It was described as a rare race car; I never heard of it either. What a funny thing to see that car mentioned twice in one week!!
Don Vollum (Donv)
New member
Username: Donv

Post Number: 26
Registered: 1-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 11:33 pm:   

Uh, Arlie, you might want to read to the bottom of the page in the SCM link there. It describes how the car profiled was a dog, and how once you made it nice you'd be $170-180k into it.

The article also mentions how a nice 275 short nose sold at Monterey this year for $178k.

Not to mention the fact that the auction was in Geneva, and it seems like cars in Europe tend to sell for less than those in the US.
Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie

Post Number: 289
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 6:56 pm:   

Interesting that the car sold for $141,266 this year, which is far short of the $175,000 to $200,000 that folks say they are worth.
Doug Meredith (Doug308)
Junior Member
Username: Doug308

Post Number: 203
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 6:42 pm:   

Uhhhhh....
Maybe I should have done this first.
Here is the link.
http://www.sportscarmarket.com/mp/0210-fer.php
Doug Meredith (Doug308)
Junior Member
Username: Doug308

Post Number: 202
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 6:40 pm:   

Bill
The Oct 2002 issue of Sports Car Market has a nice profile on a '65 275 GTB/6c. #7629 Their price guide says $150-180 k and add $25k for a 6 carb version. If you go to www.sportscarmarket.com, it is possible that they may have it online.
Bill Gammon (Bill_gammon)
New member
Username: Bill_gammon

Post Number: 15
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 4:52 pm:   

Guys, I did a bunch more research today and have sent some emails to the professionals. Again, your input is appreciated.
I sent an email to Michael Sheehan (is that right). It appears he has sold several cars. He hasn't gotten back to me yet.

Anyway, moving on.

Paul asked what happened in the Ebay BMW auction I mentioned.
I believe the reaction may happen to anyone that just shows up on the net and claims to have a "special" car. I mean, I have a strange love for 3rd Generation Rx7's and doing high speed driving schools in them. I am well known in every Rx7 area in the internet. I believe I would know about every "nice" Rx7 in the country and I guess I would have questions if some unknown fellow showed up with one.

This is what happened to me.

I put a 1973 BMW CSL on ebay and within hours I was getting emails advising me that I was being drawn and quartered on BMW forums and mailing lists all over the globe. I had never visited any of these lists and didn't even know they existed (this is part of the reason I came here first, hoping to head it off at the pass. little did I know)

Anyway, I did some checking and sure enough, the "experts" in the BMW world were assuring all their disciples that the car couldn't possibly exist and I was surely a liar, fraud, cheat and should be exposed.

All I could do was offer photos, documentation and a DNA sample.

It all ended well, but a month later I am still getting email from BMW people telling me what a fraud I was. Meanwhile, a true enthusiast drove here from Alabama, inspected the car for 4 hours, returned home and promptly made a bid which nobody in the BMW world believed was possible.

I guess it happens in all the car corners of the internet.

Hope this is a bit more fun to read than all the complaints. Let's put those behind us.

Meanwhile, I am heading to the garage to take some more photos of the car. I have had many emails requesting particular shots. If you have any requests, just let me know. Many people just wanted shots for their collection and I am happy to share.

Now, back to my Guinness. Thanks

Bill
Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member
Username: Irfgt

Post Number: 2050
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 4:52 pm:   

My Corvair and Corvette are real and NOT FOR SALE!
Noelrp (Noelrp)
Junior Member
Username: Noelrp

Post Number: 78
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 12:17 pm:   

oh please I have enough problems in life to worry about some sensitive Ferrari chatters who has no humor at all.

I'm with you Rob. Ignore & move on. And to all of the sensitive F-chatters, Lighten up you are in cyberspace!
Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member
Username: Pcelenta

Post Number: 163
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 11:20 am:   

looks like alberto is reading into this a little too much...Jealousy, bitterness, rudeness? WHERE? Doubt that the car is real...WHERE? some scepticism and sarcasism about the question (where would be a good place to "get the word out?")...DEFINATELY!

Bill, you mentioned that you ran into the same problems when you offered the other car (the BMW CSL?) What raised eyebrows then and brought out the doubting thomas'?

What can we do to help prevent this from happening to the next new poster?


jeeze!!
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts

Post Number: 2299
Registered: 12-2000
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 10:48 am:   

I'm sick of the users bitching about bitching.
Alberto (Aabreu)
Junior Member
Username: Aabreu

Post Number: 89
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 10:17 am:   

I am appalled at the jealousy, bitterness and rudeness displayed in this thread and which seems to be permeating more and more threads on this board.

I do not know Bill Gammon and I have no connection with him whatsover. However, coincidentally, his brother in law works for me. This is a real car, Bill is a real person. Give the guy a break. You nay sayers need to drop the cynicism and give people the benefit of the doubt, specially people who could prove to be a meaningful and very useful resource like Bill and others who have posted insightful and usefull comments.

The comments made by a few to an individual simply looking for advice on where to sell a car, the inuendoes, rumours and implications about the car not being real based on nothing other than the guy has the car and has asked where the best place to sell it is, is simply amazing to me.

It is silly to assume that the car is not real based on a series of questions of where to sell it. If someone here is really interested in buying the car, they would undergo the usual pre-purchase inspections, including seeing the car, etc. No one would send Bill the money without doing that sort of due dilligence.

The deterioration of the conversations and posts made to this site lately are certainly driving me away from using it, since I do not have the time nor patience to hear other people bitching and gossiping.

Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member
Username: Amenasce

Post Number: 281
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 8:32 am:   

I thought think kind of behaviour belonged to teenagers ..

Anyway , Bill your 275 is stunning , i always loved them without bumpers ! Much more aggressive .

Try advertising it on :

www.ferrarimarketletter.com
www.ferrari-forsale.com
www.ferrarimart.com


My father bought several cars from this dealer and sells them through him too, you can give it a try ..

http://www.degarmoltd.com/index.htm


Cheers !
jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
New member
Username: Atheyg

Post Number: 48
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 8:21 am:   

Bill,
That is a beautiful car

Sorry you had to get the 3rd degree, but there are some very knowlegable people here on Ferrari. they have saved me time, $ and I've learned a few things too

Its always funny how people treat each other via the internet and say things they would never say in person kind of similar to road rage in vehicles, maybe we should call it chat rage


John A (Jarends)
Junior Member
Username: Jarends

Post Number: 160
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 7:41 am:   

CAR? what car, is there a car for sale on this thread.
You mean my wife's 328 shouldn't say "Fiero" on the top of the engine? But the dealer was such a nice guy??
I'm lost here.

John
Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member
Username: Miami348ts

Post Number: 2933
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 6:11 am:   

Bill,
just for your info: There was a guy selling raffle tickets and he was a scam artist. To me obvious back then, but apparently not to others. He got exposed and all hell broke lose.

I am afraid that you had become victimized by some that want to prevent this from happening again.

Please do not let this keep you of the Chat!
Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member
Username: Miami348ts

Post Number: 2932
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 6:08 am:   

I just don't get it!

Bill has not asked once for money. He did not come and say if you want info on the car it will cost you $$$. Even if he does not own this car (which I am convinced he does)nobody has suffered a finacial loss by giving him what he asked for, advise!

When you guys doubting Bill went to buy your cars (for those that truely own a Ferrari), did you call up the dealer or the guy you bought it from and screamed: "You don't even own the car!" ?

Just so you all understand: There is thousands of classics out there! It is not uncommon to see one go on sale!

Guys please think before you post!
Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member
Username: Cmparrf40

Post Number: 429
Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 12:36 am:   

Rob, come up to PPIR this weekend and go racing with us!

Hell, it is only a 12 hour drive from DFW!

I just got the dual master system installed, it will break your collar bones for sure!
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo

Post Number: 3172
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 12:13 am:   

OH Please! Don't worry he isn't going anyplace.
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts

Post Number: 2298
Registered: 12-2000
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 12:10 am:   

A few weeks ago I talked in another thread about a new users guide that would talk about many of the board pitfalls. I think that may help a little, but I doubt many will read it, but at least it's there to refer to.

Glad you're around Chris, you're a great person with much knowledge of Ferraris, racing, and floor mats. ;)

magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo

Post Number: 3171
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Thursday, October 03, 2002 - 12:07 am:   

Chris, Don't forget you and I had our little encounter here on the F.C.. Some are still talking about it. However we did come to a meeting of the minds as I think this should be. I don't think that Bill should have been put in the light of a bad character when there was no reason other than the past Sawyer incident. I agree, MOVE ON.
Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member
Username: Cmparrf40

Post Number: 428
Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 11:56 pm:   

Rob, I am still here and not going anywhere.

I did get a little tired of the beating Bill was taking, it was time for somebody to say enough was enough. Being skeptical is one thing, being rude is another.

I value this sight a great deal, I just think new members should be treated better! (give them a few weeks before we grill them!)

I do not agree with everyone on here nor do I want to, I do not expect everybody to agree with me, diversity is what makes this sight work, but damn, it got so frustrating to constantly see negative comment after negative comment.

You know me on this chat room and as a friend in real life, you know I am a glass "half full" not "half empty" kind of person. I just find that I prefer surrounding myself with positive people.

I will say Ferrari ownership plays no part on who is good or bad. The biggest jerk I know is a Ferrari owner so a Ferrari owners only site will serve no purpose!

Lets move on!

Chris
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts

Post Number: 2295
Registered: 12-2000
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 11:15 pm:   

Geez, I can't even leave for 3 hours to take my transmission class. It really breaks my heart to hear users like Wayne, Chris, and Stephen not want to visit FerrariChat.com as much or at all. They're very valuable elements of what makes this site work. My next reaction flips the other way as I understand this is just a one dimensional communication medium. We have such a diverse group of users on every level. It doesn't matter what you say, I guarantee someone will interpret it wrong. Understand the limitations and don't get so damn worked up about every little thing. I think this post is perfect, you have a good balance of info seekers, info experts, doubters, supporters, and comedians. If you can't see through this and handle it, I don't want you on FerrariChat.com anyway. Leave the board because you're not as interested in Ferraris or you're addicted to the internet or you have carpel tunnel syndrome (sp?), but please don't tell me you don't like FerrariChat.com because you can't filter the crap, especially when you add much value to the site. That's something broken on your end and I can't fix it. I may create an owners only topic, but trust me, we'll still have diversity and diverse comments.
bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member
Username: Bws88tr

Post Number: 968
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 10:43 pm:   

GOOD NIGHT BILL...NO HARD FEELINGS..............

BRUCE
Bill Gammon (Bill_gammon)
New member
Username: Bill_gammon

Post Number: 13
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 10:40 pm:   

Guys, let's quit beating this dead horse. I am the new guy here and I will quit coming between friends.

The car will surface over the next few days (weeks, who knows) and you all will be able to say you heard about it first.

When its all over with, I will come back and let you know how the sale went, or how it didn't.

If you are curious, just occasionally check my website, I'll put something there to update the situation. www.billgammon.com

I agree to the group hug. No hard feelings.

And see, even I know how to get under a Ferrari and work on a fussy clutch.

Bill

Bill
Joseph (Mojo)
New member
Username: Mojo

Post Number: 21
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 10:27 pm:   

Hey guys non of this matters.
Now how about a big group hug.:-)

Mojo
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo

Post Number: 3167
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 10:18 pm:   

Art, I agree totally. Bill came on the site in a friendly manner and was the victim of a couple of guys who decided to be Judge and Jury. Do you guys pride yourself in trying to be "Sherlock Holmes?" Even if Bill was a phony, which I feel he isn't, it would be no skin off your ass. If you aren't going to buy the car you have no right to accuse Bill of something you are guessing about. If you have the money to buy it then put up or shut up and prove if he is the phony you say he is. You have no proof you are simply shooting accusations from the hip. This debasing of Bills character by you guys is "STUPID."
bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member
Username: Bws88tr

Post Number: 967
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 10:18 pm:   

THANKS MATT

I SCROLLED DOWN 60 POSTS SAW IT,

WELL SAID WILLIAM HART, GOOD NIGHT ALL INCLUDING MR "DAMN" JIM E
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Junior Member
Username: Mlemus

Post Number: 206
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 10:12 pm:   

Bruce,

He posted s/n 7333.

M
wm hart (Whart)
Member
Username: Whart

Post Number: 525
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 10:10 pm:   

I, for one, would be sorry to lose L Wayne, since i think he has been a truly valuable contributor to this board. As to the questions raised about Bill Gammon's ulterior motives for posting in the first place, i don't think the questions are entirely unfair; to the extent they are misguided or mistrusting, Bill seems to be adult enough to disregard what doesn't apply to him. I think he got some decent feedback from alot of folks, and that's what the board is about. As to characterizing what roles people play, whether they have or don't have ferraris, etc., is really beside the point. If somebody shows a lack of respect, that's one thing; but frankly, most of the "sceptical" posts were themselves valuable in showing that people are not going to trust everything they read. I don't think there was that much venom here to justify anybody getting totally bent; just the usual exchange of different views.
Jim E (Jimpo1)
Member
Username: Jimpo1

Post Number: 831
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 10:07 pm:   

Damn Bruce, it's there! SN 7333, Wayne even dug up some info on it.
Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member
Username: Pcelenta

Post Number: 162
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 10:06 pm:   

James, the similiarities are clearly not in what they were asking for...that is obvious..go back to the archives and read the old posts....its a lot of the same type of dialoge....

If something sounds a little strange there is nothing wrong with stating your opinion...ferrari owner or not....

I feel bad that wayne has left and I feel equally bad that Bill was offended...my apologies.

Now I have to go fix my radiator on my lowly 308.
bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member
Username: Bws88tr

Post Number: 966
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 10:05 pm:   

bill

you were asked by L wayne, rob lay, and jim e, to post a vin or serial # to check out the car... i see NO posting of this..
Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member
Username: Fred

Post Number: 635
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 10:05 pm:   

I agree. It seems that anytime someone mentions they are selling their car they get jumped all over.
Bill Gammon (Bill_gammon)
New member
Username: Bill_gammon

Post Number: 12
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 9:58 pm:   

Horsefly, I like the most recent post. Everyone, including me, can't resist reading the new posts. Oh the Horror. Couldn't agree more.

Bruce, I am curious what thread you are reading I produced the VIN and lots of information yesterday.
Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie

Post Number: 286
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 9:53 pm:   

Thank you Paul for a refreshing comment. I was the first person to respond to Bill's posting and just let him know of our potential skepticism of somebody trying to sell something, be it a car or raffle tickets. Now folks consider me a second class car citizen because I don't own an almighty Ferrari. But let's not all be so down on each other. This whole thread reminds me of a little kid watching a horror movie. He is so scared that he KEEPS looking at it between his fingers. Everybody dislikes the comments on this thread so much that they KEEP coming back for more!
bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member
Username: Bws88tr

Post Number: 964
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 9:52 pm:   

bill

this is not a gang up on bill or bash arlie..as paul states we have been exposed to fraudulant ads and raffles stating to win a car or buy a car..
there is no reason to bash arlie, or any of the said "bad apples here" we all just stick together and protect each other from scum like chris sawyeer and companies...
when asked to produce a vin# of the car you are selling or any other info about it..we have seen nothing......

bruce
James Dixon (Omnadren250)
Member
Username: Omnadren250

Post Number: 296
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 9:46 pm:   

How can this be another "Chris Sawyer thing"???

Chris came on here asking for your money.
Bill came on here asking for your advice.

Is there not a difference???
Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member
Username: Pcelenta

Post Number: 161
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 9:43 pm:   

why has this become a bash Arlie thing...Is it so horrible to be a little sceptical..that doesn't make you a miserable negative person or mean that you have a crappy life..jeezz!! there has been nothing posted that ever said fraud or conspiracy...just a little scepticism that this might be another chris sawyerr thing or that other clown who pulled everyones chain about his friend buying him a 360 or something...
Bill Gammon (Bill_gammon)
New member
Username: Bill_gammon

Post Number: 11
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 9:39 pm:   

Much appreciated, but I seriously didn't intend on causing such turmoil.

I truly enjoy the conversation on here and appreciate the input from most of you. I spent the last hour responding to private messages and taking some specific photo and information requests.

Besides, the bad apples here are lightweights. Over in BMW land I had a guy threaten to fly to WV and expose me to the world just because I had the nerve to post a car on ebay that he didn't believe existed.
I came to find out that he was 2 years old when that BMW was manufactured and when I offered to pay his plane ticket he shut up.

Thanks again, and if you are awaiting a private email response I am working on them now.
Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie

Post Number: 285
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 9:38 pm:   

Hey JimE, you conveniently forgot to mention that the following posters also had similar "doubtful comments" concerning the 275GTB:

Futureowner, Pcelenta, BWS88TR, Noelrp.

And according to their profiles, the ARE Ferrari owners. Does that mean they also "stir up crap"?
arthur chambers (Art355)
Member
Username: Art355

Post Number: 697
Registered: 6-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 9:31 pm:   

I've jsut finished reading this thread. Maybe we need a dual membership list. One for those that do own an F-car, and another for those that don't. It sure looks like the abuse comes from those who don't with a few limited exceptions.

Art
James Dixon (Omnadren250)
Member
Username: Omnadren250

Post Number: 295
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 9:28 pm:   

Good job guys!!!!!!

Not only have you deterred a Ferrari 275GTB owner from coming back here (Bill Gammon), but you have also lost Wayne, who is a true car enthusiast.

Thats ok Wayne, you are probably better off not coming back here anyway. You are too knowledgable about cars and don't give the 1 sided, Ferrari biased views that are required to be a part of this website.
Jim E (Jimpo1)
Member
Username: Jimpo1

Post Number: 822
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 9:11 pm:   

Bill, pay no attention to the Arlie's of this board. Their reason for being here is to stir up crap. I guess if you don't own a Ferrari it's easy for you to accuse others of being 'owner frauds'.

Your car is beautiful, my all time favorite Ferrari. If I were in the market, I'd be on the phone.
Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member
Username: Cmparrf40

Post Number: 424
Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 8:47 pm:   

Bill, I am with you...

I am not on here near as much as I used to be, I amazed at the arogant, elitest nature of many of the people on this thread.

I know Steve Patterson is just plain tired of the juvenile nature of the negative comments, it seems some people on here want to be a big man by cutting others down.

A few bad apples are ruining Ferrarichat, Bill Gammon can stay, but why would he? Would you want to hang out here? Did you make him feel welcome?

Chris Sawyer is no excuse for the way Bill has been treated. Innocent till PROVEN guilty.

disgusted,

Chris
Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member
Username: Wsawyer

Post Number: 481
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 7:44 pm:   

Personally,I'm surprised by the abuse that has been heaped on Bill Gammon. I can't find any sane reason why he deserved it. There is absolutely no correlation between his situation and that of that double R fellow.

Meanwhile we seem very adept at chasing off people who have a lot to contribute. It's interesting that many of them are vintage Ferrari guys. When was the last time we heard from Stephen Patterson, for example? Bill Gammon and L. Wayne could be great resources for us. L. Wayne has contributed immensely in the past few months. I, for one, will miss him.

Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie

Post Number: 283
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 7:41 pm:   

No time wasting going on here with me. I sit 8 hours a day in a control room filled with computers and video equipment operating all around me. Ironically, I'm paid to be here doing my job and STILL have time to F-Chat. Multi-tasking!
djmonk (Davem)
Junior Member
Username: Davem

Post Number: 100
Registered: 1-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 7:24 pm:   

Hey fellow F-chatters!! I made it 100 posts. Phew. Think i need a drive in my Mondy to celebrate. No really i do own one, ironically im sure no one here doubts that.
djmonk (Davem)
Junior Member
Username: Davem

Post Number: 99
Registered: 1-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 7:18 pm:   

Arlie. I have to tell ya, you crack me up. Chris Sawyerr was just one bad apple that wanted money for nothing. Bill justs wants to sell a car. I doubt he is wasting his time to play games. On the other hand you seem to have plenty of time time with your conspiracy idea's.
Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie

Post Number: 282
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 7:02 pm:   

Bill and others, please keep in mind that the now infamous Chris Sawyerr made many of the exact same kind of statements as Bill's last posting. He said that he was insulted, didn't have time for us, would quietly go where he was more appreciated, etc, etc. He promised to post the raffle winner on September 1st. Nothing was ever posted and he disappeared. Longevity is the key to trust. If Bill hangs around for hundreds of postings and debates great Ferrari and automotive issues like the rest of us, everybody will know that he is not another flash in the pan like Chris Sawyerr. From what I have gathered on this board, MANY of the posters are VERY successful businessmen who have years of experience in the financial world working with all kinds of people. Certainly a few comments from well meaning "Doubting Thomases" is not going to run off a guy like that who owns a car worth above $150,000 if he is sincere and wants to join the crowd. Just roll with the very mild punches and hang around. Good intentions will win out in the long run.
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member
Username: Lwausbrooks

Post Number: 366
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 5:55 pm:   

Can you blame him? Read his initial post. He simply asked what sites were frequented by Ferrari enthusiasts so that he may list the car for sale when the time comes. That's it. A couple of us offered him some advice as to where to list the car.

Then, out of nowhere, he starts getting attacked by people claiming he doesn't have the car, doesn't own the car, or is trying to get information about the car. He never tried to sell any of you his car and didn't ask you for any information about it. He asked for advice on where to offer it for sale and suddenly had to defend himself against a bunch of paranoid attackers.

You guys are downright rude to everybody who posts here for the first time if they are saying anything other than how wonderful you cars are. I've seen it before. Frankly, I've had enough of the juvenile antics that take place here. I'm out of here.

Bill, if you want advice from a more helpful group, try http://www.tomyang.com/cars/ferrari.html?phpBB2.

Sorry, Rob.

--Wayne
bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member
Username: Bws88tr

Post Number: 960
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 5:32 pm:   

bill
with you being a newbie here with 10 posts, your abrasive, sarcastic comments and statements will surely gain you respect on f-chat with a lot of people here...chill with the sarcasism my friend.

regards,
bruce
Bill Gammon (Bill_gammon)
New member
Username: Bill_gammon

Post Number: 10
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 5:16 pm:   

Well, I was heading out the door to dinner but the little voice in my head said to read your page one more time.

I am amazed at the comments.

Let's review: I mentioned that I may want to sell a car. I asked for some advice from people I agree are more knowledgable than myself.

I got some very reasoned advice, but mostly there was scoffing, teasing and accusations that I am a fraud.

It's just a car and it appears that the vocal majority aren't in the market anyway.

What kind of proof do you people need? Should I take a sharpie and write my name on the hood, or how about I write ferrarichat.com on the windshield and post a picture.

I don't have enough time in my day to fabricate a story solely for the amusement of a few people with more time in front of their keyboard than behind the wheel of their Ferrari.

Noelrp (Noelrp)
Junior Member
Username: Noelrp

Post Number: 76
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 5:02 pm:   

I think we just been used

...just kidding :-)
Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member
Username: Pcelenta

Post Number: 158
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 4:52 pm:   

Maybe I am just a paranoid New Yorker...though I like to think "street smart" would be more appropriate. I am going along with Arlie on this one...just like the last time with the Chris thing...you guys are too nice!

wayne & rob...I'm not discounting the fact that you guys enjoy researching Ferrari history (as do I) and I am not saying that you guys need to prove anything...just that maybe, just maybe.. you should not be so free about giving away info that could potentially be misused.
Bill Gammon (Bill_gammon)
New member
Username: Bill_gammon

Post Number: 9
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 4:44 pm:   

I appreciate all the input.

For the guy concerned that I don't have the info on the car and am wanting it provided "free".
I have all the info that I could possibly want. I chose to not share everything with the entire board. I figured I could do that with individuals that may be interested in purchasing the car.

If I deem it necessary, I may contact the historians, but I don't anticiptate it will be.
I know the car and when I have everything organized to present to potential buyers, they will be very satisfied with the documentation.

As for the people that just want to come see the car. I would probably reserve that time for persons serious in the purchase, but if something can be worked out, I welcome anyone to come see her. Its fun to hear people eat their words.

I appreciate all the kind responses, and the few very helpful private emails. It seems some of you already know the history and provenance of the car.

Now, I guess I will shrink back to the darkness where all the internet braggarts and scammers come from. Like Chris Sawyer, whoever the hell that is.

Bill Gammon
BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member
Username: Bretm

Post Number: 2697
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 3:42 pm:   

If you are interested in a reputable dealership doing a consignment I know the owner of one here on the east coast which would work well. He's an honest guy and really knows his way around old Ferraris, Maseratis, Lambos, etc (mechanic his whole life on them). Just email me if you are.
We had a guy come in a couple months ago to look at a 275GTB, he came all the way from Mexico I think. So, there are buyers out there and I would think a nice one would be reasonable to sell if you went about it with the right avenues. I think it's a really cool car, I love those old cars that pollute, are loud, want to stall when they're not tuned perfectly, etc.
Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member
Username: Miami348ts

Post Number: 2929
Registered: 5-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 3:22 pm:   

Allthough I am not a vintage car guy and can not tell you the exact value of a car like this eBay is really an advertising tool. No sane person would buy a Ferrari sight unseen and have iot shipped to his/her house to be surprised.

The cars I have / had on eBay were there purely for interested buyers to call and find out more about the car. They did and then I was able to strike a deal with the buyers direct.

A buyer is who tells you he arrives with flight XYZ at 8:00am at the airport to check out the car.

If the car is not real you get no check. If the car is doubtfull you get no check, if the PPI does not fit, you get no check.

Where is all of you guys problem.

Bill,
my advise as a Car Dealer dealing only in Ferrari (but the more modern ones) go with a reputable car dealer and consign the car to them. I won't take it, because I know nothing about the old ones, but there is plenty of reputable ones that do and those are your best bet. As W. Hart said: These cars are sold in a small circle of people, unless you have the foot in there, it will be hard to sell your car or you will lose money from what the car is really worth. You may get $ 175,000 for the car as the best offer and the broker that has the right contacts can get $210,000 and you end up with $185,000 (just as an example).
Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie

Post Number: 280
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 2:28 pm:   

No offense intended to Bill and his 275GTB, but
here is why I doubt alot of things on the net. In addition to an interest in Corvettes and Ferraris, I am also an amateur radio operator for the past 30 years. In February of 2000, I responded to an internet ad listing some radio equipment for sale from a fellow amateur radio operator. This fellow had been selling equipment on one of the bulletin boards for several years with no complaints from anybody. Over the telephone with him, I made a deal for 4 pieces of equipment for $810 and sent him postal money orders as payment in full. To make a long story short, the equipment never arrived and I had to file a federal mail fraud complaint against him and get the postal inspectors after him. After 7 months, he finally refunded my money with not one word of apology. This guy would have NEVER returned my money, but I am a pretty good internet detective, and I tracked him down, much to his surprise. Faced with prosecution or refunding my money, he chose to pay up. This guy was very well known and had made many good deals with people. Apparently his life just took a turn for the worse and he turned crooked. THAT IS WHY I TEND TO DOUBT WHAT STRANGERS SAY ON THE INTERNET. Forwarned is forarmed. As I said, no offense intended to Bill and his fine 275GTB, but this day and age, you just have to be careful.
Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Member
Username: Jim_schad

Post Number: 253
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 12:13 pm:   

I figure Bill probably is well aware of some of the pubs he could advertise in, but since we drive these nutty cars he just wanted to go to the source and see where we shop.

Also, if he had come in acting like a know-it-all he wouldn't have been well received either.

Good luck Bill, wish I could afford it!
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member
Username: Lwausbrooks

Post Number: 365
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 12:08 pm:   

Rob is right. Researching the car is just a matter of personal enjoyment, nothing more.

Besides, why would I have to prove anything? I don't know why any of us need to doubt somebody who simply asked us for advice. Nobody's trying to sell you anything, so relax. Get a life.
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts

Post Number: 2289
Registered: 12-2000
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 8:58 am:   

Paul, I think Wayne and I, as Ferrari historians, just like to research for fun. We're not trying to prove anything.
Harlan Mott (Hmott3)
Junior Member
Username: Hmott3

Post Number: 204
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 8:12 am:   

Bill,

I'm on the border of WV and Ohio if you're close I would love to come take a look at it. I don't doubt you have it and not to prove you do, but just for my enjoyment of listening to it.
William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member
Username: Countachxx

Post Number: 1434
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 7:23 am:   

Bill, I dont think I would sell it in this economy. If you dont need the $ hold on to it a while & the price will most likely increase.
Who passed the car onto you?
Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member
Username: Pcelenta

Post Number: 155
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 6:55 am:   

wayne, while a list of past owners would be interesting and is public info..I'm not sure I would post any more info on the history of the car...you don't have to prove the authenticity of the car..you're not the one selling. IMO you would be giving away info that potentially could be missused.

I would recommend he contact Gerald Roush, pay his Fee, and get the info if he doesn't have it already (which I think would be odd). Mr. Rousch has an extensive database and could probably tell you the name of the boat it was shipped on.

Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
Member
Username: Craigfl

Post Number: 458
Registered: 1-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 6:51 am:   

I bought my car from an Ebay listing although I didn't bid on it during the auction. When the car didn't sell, I contacted the owner and made arrangements for a PPI. After it was checked out we agreed on price. Then I used www.escrow.com to write a custom agreement that allowed me to receive the car and inspect it at my home without releasing money to the seller until my approval. The contract was written/edited/agreed by both the seller and myself and protected both of us. The process took about six weeks from initial contact to delivery and worked well for me. It would never have fit within the time constraints of the auction.

I do agree with L. Wayne that Ebay is probably not the place for this car, but it's so inexpensive to advertise there that not doing it might be a lost opportunity....
Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Junior Member
Username: Dapper

Post Number: 228
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 6:09 am:   

FWIW I would never entertain buying a car through E bay, even a regular make/model, let alone a F car be it modern or vintage. I wouldn't even look to see what was on it, guess I must have abnormally low levels of curiosity.

In fact if I felt someone had to resort to E bay to gain interest against the car in question I would smell a huge RAT and pursue no further!

We don't all think the same, we are not all like sheep.
nick m........ (Nickm)
Junior Member
Username: Nickm

Post Number: 139
Registered: 8-2001
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 12:15 am:   

Truth be told, you may never really know if a car sold off of Ebay. I you are a little sneaky you put your phone number in your add and tell people to call you if they have any questions. Of course they are going to have questions. Your add will expire on Ebay, and as far as everybody knows, your car didnt sell. But guess what? The potential buyer may just fly out and take a look at your car. Nobody is the wiser. Its worth running the add. If you are properly prepared to sell that car once the calls start coming in, you will sell it. Nice photos, video of the car, tech sheet etc... You can tell when someone is interested in your car over the phone by just talking to them. Next day air the video to the very interested, priority mail to the rest.
Make sure to call them the day they receive the video!!! Just cause they dont call you back doesnt mean they arnt interested. They have a million things to do just like you, and because the car is not right in thier town easy to look at, you, as the seller have to get them thinking about your car everyday. More photos? maybe you forgot a little info? did the video look good? Do you have any friends in my area that could come look at the car for you so you dont waste you time with my car? etc... etc... You can sell it, its not too hard. Also if you put a fair price on you car, it will sell itself.
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member
Username: 4re_gt4

Post Number: 218
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Wednesday, October 02, 2002 - 12:08 am:   

Oh, goody, goody.

Seems like we have a real Hardy Boys mystery brewing. Can't wait for the next episode!!

PS - Still searching for spare change in the couch seat cushions. Even if it is a Fiero re-body, it looks good enough for me!
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member
Username: Lwausbrooks

Post Number: 361
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 11:48 pm:   

Horsefly: Whatever.

Bill, according to H. Raab...

Chassis number 07333:
1965 275 GTB, LHD, 3 carb, steel body, originally destined to an American customer by the name of Daetwyler.

Will see if I can find out more.

--Wayne
Bill Gammon (Bill_gammon)
New member
Username: Bill_gammon

Post Number: 8
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 11:30 pm:   

Its 12:30am and I guess I am a bit annoyed that a 2nd group of car nuts think I am a fraud.

The VIN is 7333

If you guys can tell me who the car was purchased from in 1982 (well known guy, hell, he may post here) I will be impressed.

The history prior to the prior owner, I don't have before me.

Come on guys, flesh me out. Wouldn't you love it if I had a Fiero with a body kit and was trying to peddle it to you all.

It takes all kinds.

VIN
Bill Gammon (Bill_gammon)
New member
Username: Bill_gammon

Post Number: 7
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 11:21 pm:   

Addressing the concerns of Horsefly and Paul.

I certainly play with many special Porsches, Ferraris and other cars. I am well known in several circles and I came to this place not expecting to be treated any different than any other anonymous person that shows up.

I had the same sort of reaction when I showed up on the scene to sell a BMW 3.0 CSL. I was called every sort of fraud and scammer possible. I simply offered to have the car inspected, even offered to purchase plane tickets for the most rabid of the bunch.

The ebay bidder drove to WV from Alabama, inspected the car and found it much better than I described. He bid the car to a level that is still (a month later) causing a stir in the BMW internet world.

The 275 is real, I am not a scammer and if anyone wants to come to WV to inspect the car you are welcome.

I don't anticipate closing any deal before the 1st of the year (I am sure some of you understand the reasoning)

I certainly know many people I could place a call to, but I chose to do this on my own, much like I chose with the BMW. The experience was painful, but I got a great price for the other car.

I read Forza, Excellence and every other morsel you can imagine. I know exactly where this car will sell, but I thought I would see what you guys thought.

If I offended you, I am sorry.

Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie

Post Number: 279
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 11:00 pm:   

Only one 275GTB was offered for sale on E-Bay during the month of September with 16 bidders actually trying to buy it. (The high bidder had a good bid history, so he must have been serious.)The question is: How many 275GTBs were actually sold ANYWHERE AT ALL during the month of September? If everyone is looking elsewhere besides E-Bay, are the sales actually any better ELSEWHERE during September for 275GTBs???
And $155,800 is not a respectable bid? Isn't it amazing that no matter how much somebody offers, it is never enough. Doesn't matter whether it's 1968, 1974, the boom of the late 1980s, or today, nobody really WANTS to sell their car, they are just trying to hook a big cash cow and milk them for all the bucks they can.
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member
Username: Lwausbrooks

Post Number: 360
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 10:43 pm:   

You make my point. Only one offered for sale. Didn't get anywhere near a respectable bid (The car is currently listed for sale at $195K and will probably sell for around $180K). That is not the place to sell that car. True, it is only worth what someone is willing to pay, but you have to reach all those someones out there first. They're not looking on eBay, Arlie.
Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie

Post Number: 278
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 10:19 pm:   

I did a closer check of E-Bay and on September 16th, a 275GTB was bid to $155,800 with a total of 16 bids. Is that not a vintage Ferrari?????
Maybe it didn't sell, but as I have said before, maybe it's only worth what somebody is willing to give.

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&mfcisapicommand=ViewItem&item=1860204335
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member
Username: Lwausbrooks

Post Number: 358
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 10:00 pm:   

Horsefly,

Again you are not reading what I'm posting. We are not talking about a modern Ferrari. We are talking about a VINTAGE Ferrari. It has nothing to do with the price. I didn't say it wouldn't sell on eBay because it is expensive. I said that the VINTAGE Ferrari community does not turn to eBay for their VINTAGE Ferrari purchases. Again, I think the numbers speak for themselves. VINTAGE Ferraris are rarely sold on eBay. They are, however, sold regularly through other sources such as FML.

BTW, Mr. Gammon's e-mail address is billgammon@hotmail.com. It's listed on his site.

Bill, again, can you share the VIN with us?
Jim E (Jimpo1)
Member
Username: Jimpo1

Post Number: 819
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 9:43 pm:   

I agree w/ Rob, post the S/N and watch the flood of information.
David Jones (Dave)
Member
Username: Dave

Post Number: 346
Registered: 4-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 9:42 pm:   

I'll trade you a $100.00 air raffle ticket for a Ferrari that has yet to be won purchased from nun other than Mr. Sawyerr himself, straight across for the 275gtb, no questions asked,
just because I'm such a nice guy...
bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member
Username: Bws88tr

Post Number: 954
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 9:40 pm:   

is bill related to chris sawyeer??

careful guys......anyone agree??

bruce
Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie

Post Number: 277
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 9:33 pm:   

I think that alot of the serious high dollar E-Bay items often have special conditions attached to the auction to weed out the not-so-serious bidders. It all just depends on how the seller sets up the auction. On a high dollar item like a collector car, it's not going to be very easy to shaft a buyer. If the winning bidder shows up with the check and the car isn't up to snuff, no deal!
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts

Post Number: 2286
Registered: 12-2000
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 9:25 pm:   

Bill, post the S/N on this board, I bet within 5 days we'll find info that you didn't even know.

Chick pics are welcomed too and to be fair post a guy pic for Nika.
wm hart (Whart)
Member
Username: Whart

Post Number: 524
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 9:07 pm:   

Boy, are you guys tough! BTW, HFly, didn't know that you had a right of inspection in connection with E-Bay auctions. That would certainly take the sting out of it.
Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie

Post Number: 276
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 8:54 pm:   

I'm am thinking the same thing that you are Paul. I was just browsing Bill's web site and looking at all the track photos and car guys with nice machinery. It sure sounds strange that Bill couldn't just tell a few of those guys that the car is for sale and just make a deal. If I have a $50 dollar gold piece and know dozens of guys who are coin collectors, does anybody think that I will have to seek out total strangers in order to sell my $50 gold piece?
Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member
Username: Solly

Post Number: 406
Registered: 6-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 8:41 pm:   

Bill Gammon-Your email is not listed under your profile or I would have contacted you privately. I may be interested in the 275 and the 904 as a package deal.Please contact me, and send serial/VIN #s for the cars. My e-mail is listed under my profile. Still interested even if only the 275 is for sale.
Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member
Username: Pcelenta

Post Number: 154
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 8:41 pm:   

I'm looking at these posts and I've got to tell you guys this seems so Chris Sawyer-esque....

If you play with P-car 904s and you have a 275gtb2 to sell but you have no idea where the best place to sell your car is or you don't have someone interested in such a rare piece of artwork already... I'm thinking that something ain't right.

I just find it hard to believe that he doesn't know about the FML, FCA, SCML or Hemmings.



Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member
Username: Glassman

Post Number: 99
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 7:20 pm:   

E-bay is the cheapest worldwide advertisement you can buy!
Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie

Post Number: 275
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 6:58 pm:   

Just for fun, I went to E-Bay and did a check of all completed Ferrari auctions during the month of September and checked on the bidding history. NOT COUNTING any auctions with single bids, there were 492 bids on Ferraris that eventually bid OVER $100,000 dollars! Even if a large percentage of those bids were bogus or duplicate bids from the same person, that's still alot of bidding for expensive FERRARIs!!! It sure looks to me like the Ferrari community knows all about E-Bay and that somebody is sure doing alot of bidding. If I were one of the big money guys bidding on those cars, YES, I certainly would want to look at the car in person before bidding. But at least with an E-Bay auction, a person would have 10 days (or whatever) to go examine the car in person before bidding. How long does a person have to examine a car at a standard ,crowded, hectic, auto auction? If I was serious about selling a rare 275GTB like Bill has, I think that I would hype it up, spread the word around, let potential bidders examine it in person, then put it on E-Bay with a reserve of my liking. If it sells, great. If it doesn't, then maybe the reserve was too high. Like I said before, something is only worth what someone will give.
wm hart (Whart)
Member
Username: Whart

Post Number: 523
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 6:31 pm:   

Just to come back on the Horseflie/ L. Wayne thing about e-bay, i always found conventional auctions a little stressful (though i love them) for buying cars, cause you really don't have an opportunity to check out the merchandise carefully, unless you already know it, or can do some pre-sale verification with the cooperation of the owner/auctioneer. E-bay would be even more difficult, unless side-deals are made; i guess my point is that i would be reluctant to buy something costing that much money without being able to verify everything. I also agree with the notion that FML is probably the first place to offer the car.
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member
Username: Doody

Post Number: 496
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 6:10 pm:   

bill - while we are generally gentlemen (and ladies) here, if you do in fact have photos of scantily clad women draped over the car we absolutely wouldn't have a problem if you shared them with us :-) :-)

;-)

doody.
Bill Gammon (Bill_gammon)
New member
Username: Bill_gammon

Post Number: 6
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 5:32 pm:   

Wow, I sure think I have stumbled across a proper group of car guys. Decent discussion, varying opinions, inteligent thought and not a single mention of how fast it will go in a street race or whether I have any photos of a scantily clad female draped all over the car.

I tremendously appreciate the input and have put several things in motion.

The car is most definitely in the pre-stages of being for sale.

I anticipated it taking me a couple of months to put together all the info and to get the word out to the right people and you guys have gotten me off to a great start.

As for the specific questions about the car, I will offer this tidbit.

I described the car as an "heirloom" because I feel that any Ferrari is a family heirloom.
This car has been in the family since 1982 and its just time to let someone else be the Curator for a while.

It was correctly identified as a 2 Cam car and it does have 3 carbs. I am not sure about hood as it is the only hood we have any knowledge of.

The wheels in the photos aren't original. We have the original "Starburst" wheels and they will go with the car.

The bumpers were removed to please the eye and are safely packed in the garage.

Engine and tranny overhauled 2k miles ago (several years ago) and the car is mechanically perfect (better than new, even)

I have gotten several private messages and will go into more detail in those. I don't want to take advantage of this board for a single sale of a car.

If demand persists, and its ok with the admin of the board, I will gladly post many more pictures, more of the history and the VIN.

I really appreciate the input and , as I said, hope that I can, in some way, be a part of the discussion.

Bill Gammon

ps. Oh and I am still working on those scantily clad woman on the Ferrari photos before its sold.
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Junior Member
Username: Mlemus

Post Number: 195
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 5:30 pm:   

Bill,

By going to http://www.owners.ferrari.com and joining (for free might I add) go under vintage and there is a location where you can request a build sheet and a heritage sheet. It's takes a couple of days from the time you register until you can actually get in. It took me a couple of days.

M
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member
Username: Lwausbrooks

Post Number: 357
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 5:17 pm:   

Horsefly,

I know you like to argue just for the sake of arguing, so I'll humor you on this one. Checked out most recent FML. Approximately 80 vintage (pre-1974) F-cars for sale. Checked out eBay. Only 2. Where do you think vintage F-car collectors look for their cars? Where do you think vintage F-car sellers go to reach vintage F-car collectors? Here's a hint: it isn't on eBay.

Likewise, I'm sure the person selling that Honus Wagner card wouldn't have got nearly as much for it had he advertised it in the Penny Saver. Does that mean that the highest amount he could sell it through the Penny Saver would have been the established "fair" value for the card? Of course not. He would have been advertising to the wrong crowd. It has nothing to do with what you or other eBayers think is an "outrageous" price tag. You are obviously not a vintage F-car collector and are the wrong audience. Now, if Mr. Gammon was selling a "vintage" Ford tow truck, I'm sure he could rely on you and other vintage tow truck collectors to bid up to a fair market value if only he could find the proper selling venue to reach you.
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member
Username: 4re_gt4

Post Number: 216
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 4:55 pm:   

Personally, I think that there are too many problems for the buyer of a car on EBay. In the case of any sort of collector/vintage/sports car, the time frame is too short to make a proper evaluation. A 275GTB? How could you buy it on short notice? (i.e. the auction period) A collector would simply throw out a low ball bid, figuring if the car isn't all it is supposed to be then he shouldn't get hurt too bad.

Any car like this will need to be inspected, both by the buyer, and probably also by an expert/mechanic. Perhaps a little research to follow as to what is original/modified/proper, etc. All this takes time. If I were a serious buyer, (would be if there were a few more coins in the couch cushion) I would want to visit with Mr. Gammon, look the car over, etc. Together with travel and logistics of mechanical inspection, the whole process may take weeks.
Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie

Post Number: 274
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 4:36 pm:   

But what defines the "proper value"? Hemmings Motor News is full of overpriced vintage cars for sale and apparently not very many takers. If E-Bay has not been embraced (trusted) by the Ferrari market, why not just post an ad with an honest price and sell it on this site? If the price is good, it will sell. If the price is too high, stagnation will set in and no deal will be made. It will become, in effect, just another dream car with an outrageous price tag like 95% of the rest. (unlike my hypothetical Ford tow-truck, which is of course priceless).
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member
Username: Lwausbrooks

Post Number: 355
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 4:16 pm:   

Horsefly,

I didn't say that offering just any car on eBay would be marketing to the wrong crowd. I said that offering a VINTAGE Ferrari on eBay would be marketing to the wrong crowd. The reality is that, of all of the vintage F-car collectors I have met, none of them shop eBay for their cars.

Baseball cards, on the other hand, are a different story. EBay has become THE forum for the sports card market. Collectors even use eBay sales history to set card values.

You have apparently misunderstood my advice to have had something to do with the value of the items being sold. Not at all so. While eBay is a wonderful forum for selling all kinds of stuff, especially antiques and collectibles, the Vintage Ferrari community (as well as that of other marques) has not YET embraced it.

Like I said before, as with anything, you can either sell it cheap to someone with a casual interest, or put it out in front of someone who is looking specifically for what you have to sell and is willing to pay the proper value.
Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie

Post Number: 273
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 3:59 pm:   

L.Wayne, how can you say that offering a car on E-Bay is the "wrong crowd"? These days, EVERYBODY, EVERYWHERE knows about E-Bay just as much as they know about Hemmings Motor News. It doesn't matter whether the subject is baseball cards, antique radios, collector cars, or whatever, EVERYBODY knows about E-Bay! I think alot of people won't put items on E-Bay simply because they know that E-Bay will quickly show what an item is REALLY worth, and it is usually alot less than what they want. Didn't they auction a Honus Wagner baseball card on E-Bay for several hundred thousand dollars a year or so back? That kind of money would buy several 275GTB Ferraris.
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member
Username: Lwausbrooks

Post Number: 353
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 3:30 pm:   

A short nose, non-torque tube GTB like this one will probably sell for somewhere between $170K and $200K right now, depending on the condition. The one Mr. Gammon has here appears to be in nice cosmetic condition (on the outside, anyway) but is missing the front and rear bumpers. Were they removed for a repaint? Were they removed in order to race the car? Are they still around somewhere? It also has the hood of a 6-carb car. Does the car have a 6-carb set up, or the usual 3 carbs? If there are 6, is it the original set up for this car? If there are no hidden demons, I would guess that Mr. Gammon could list this car in the FML for $195K and expect to let it go for anywhere from $175-$185K.

As far as the people listing these cars on eBay, it is not that they are asking too much for the car, it is that they are offering the car to the wrong crowd. As with anything else, you can always sell it cheap to someone who doesn't really want it but thinks it's too good a bargain to pass up. But, really, why waste your time doing that? There are people out there looking for this exact car. Reach them. Sell your car to them for what it's worth.

--Wayne
Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Junior Member
Username: Jim_schad

Post Number: 248
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 2:37 pm:   

what is a 275GTb worth realistically?
Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie

Post Number: 272
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 2:36 pm:   

And that's exactly why the collector car market stagnates so much, everybody is just looking for ONE big fish who will cough up the big bucks.
Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Junior Member
Username: Jim_schad

Post Number: 247
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 2:28 pm:   

the trick is getting the car in front of the person who is willing to pay the most. When you only have 1 to sell you get picky.
Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie

Post Number: 271
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 2:22 pm:   

And now for something completely different, honesty! Selling a car like that would not be difficult at all. There are dozens of people right here on this board that would/could buy it. You simply hang a price tag on it, then sell it. What's the big deal? The fact is, among the collector car world, the name of the game is GREED. SQUEEZE every last dollar that you can out of the car. Let's be honest, that's what everybody tries to do. Those cars on E-Bay never sell because of the absurd reserve prices that people THINK they will sell for. If they REALLY wanted to sell them, lower the asking price and watch it sell, REAL QUICK! The same goes for any car, whether it is on E-Bay or sitting on your front lawn. If anybody ever has trouble SELLING a car, it's simply because they are asking TOO MUCH MONEY for it. Desirable, quality cars will sell any day of the week. It's all just a matter of price. Why is it that among the collector car world, people always forget one common fact; something is only worth what someone will give.
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member
Username: Lwausbrooks

Post Number: 352
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 1:48 pm:   

Bill, Terry is right on. Go to the Ferrari Market Letter web site. You can place an ad for free. Virtually every vintage Ferrari collector subscribes and cars that are priced right are snatched up fairly quickly.

Second choice: A broker such as Michael Sheehan (www.ferraris-online.com).

Forget about eBay for this car. The vintage Ferraris that appear there are rarely sold. It's not the correct venue for this car.

BTW, what is the S/N of the car?

--Wayne
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts

Post Number: 2285
Registered: 12-2000
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 11:26 am:   

For posting images there is an "upload attachment" button right below.
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts

Post Number: 2284
Registered: 12-2000
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 11:25 am:   

What is the S/N of the car?
Bill Gammon (Bill_gammon)
New member
Username: Bill_gammon

Post Number: 5
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 11:16 am:   

I have read everything and will respond more fully this evening, but I am interested in the Heritage or Build sheet just mentioned.

How do I request or obtain that?

I mean, I have all the documentation since we obtained the car (~20 years), but anything, and everything, else I can obtain would be helpful.

Thanks
Bill
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Junior Member
Username: Mlemus

Post Number: 193
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 10:37 am:   

Bill,

It might be worth putting the car in Forza or another all Ferrari Mag. Dupont Regristry is good as well. Try and get a heritiage certificate or built sheet for it. That should answer most questions about history and silence the "it's not real" crowed.

M
Argyle Co (Argyleco)
Junior Member
Username: Argyleco

Post Number: 80
Registered: 3-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 10:34 am:   

Eddie Karem, is a nice guy. I spoke to him when trying to sell my Testarossa. FLI also uses him in locating and selling their cars. I ended up going with someone else because of the price.
Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member
Username: Dogue

Post Number: 114
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 9:09 am:   

Bill,
Try the Ferrari Market Letter. This is a very good source for buying or selling a Ferrari. I know 3 owners of 275 and one just recently purchased a 2-cam long nose, the first place he looked was in the FML.
http://www.ferrarimarketletter.com/

The other place would be Sports Car Market.
http://www.sportscarmarket.com/

Both of these sources will get the word out to collectors. Another way to get the word out is to take the car to a large auction (Barrett Jackson or Russo and Steele) although you may not sell the car at this auction, everyone looking for a car like this usually watches auction results and will know that this car is for sale. I have met many people that have purchased a car after the auction end. Ebay is not a good place for such a car, most bidders are looking for a bargain.

http://www.russoandsteele.com
http://www.barrettjackson.com

I have also heard that a lot of people begin their search for a classic car with Hemmings.

http://www.hemmings.com/

Good luck.
wm hart (Whart)
Member
Username: Whart

Post Number: 522
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 8:59 am:   

Do you know Eddie Karem? He buys and sells alot of good ferraris and has a very straight reputation; the two F cars i bought thru him were close to perfect (an '83 boxer and an '89 328gts). Eddie does a good trade in vintage ferraris and doesn't blur the line between concours and "driver" cars. While you might not get the markup between wholesale and retail, i don't think there is a huge difference these days, and his profit may be worth your (lack of) trouble.Eddie is located outside of the Main Line in Phila., so he is relatively in your neck of the woods. Btw, you mentioned that the car was an heirloom; what's its history?
Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member
Username: Pcelenta

Post Number: 152
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 7:25 am:   

bill, that is the reason why you would consign your car to one of these brokers...they are going to get qualified buyers in front of the car and weed out the tire kickers.

Vintage ferrari's like this 275 gtb2 often trade in a tight knitt circle of knowledgable enthusiasts and their pedigree can be verified. The fact is that there were only around 500 or so GTB2's made...so someone is always going to be looking for one.

What is the history of the car? Privately imported or through Chinetti?
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi

Post Number: 1456
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 7:00 am:   

Bill

If you do end up using a dealer - What about using the sponsor on this site - exotic car world. I have found them to be straight shooters
Bill Gammon (Bill_gammon)
New member
Username: Bill_gammon

Post Number: 4
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 6:54 am:   

Thanks everyone.

As I have let the word filter out there are already a couple of commission motivated sales guys and a dealer that want to sell the car.

I am initially interested in selling it myself. Not that i don't want to pay a commission, but I feel that if I do my homework I can get the car in front of the people who are actually serious about a purchase. In reality, how many people would seriously consider such a car? I just have to get the word out.

I think I will definitely put an ad on that ferrariads.com site.

After the absolute uproar I caused with the prior ebay auction I just decided to try to hit the marque enthusiast sites first. I am going to write a book, or at least an article, on the experience I had with the other auction.

Oh and the Porsche 904. No, not mine, but I have spent a good portion of my life with the car. It belongs to a close family friend. What a car.

Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member
Username: Doody

Post Number: 492
Registered: 11-2001
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 6:16 am:   

Bill:

Your 275 looks lovely. Very desirable.

Unless you get lucky, or have a friend interested, trying to sell it yourself is going to be tough. Your biggest problem is going to be lead generation. Your second biggest problem is going to be the hassle of the million questions anybody capable of shelling out that kind of money is going to pepper you with.

If you're dead-set on selling it yourself, EBay, while full of poseurs, idiots, morons, and doofuses (but I don't have an opinion on the matter!), is easily the best lead generator on the planet right now as it concerns high-end automobiles.

When you get a web page together for it, I'd post a link here (and buy an ad at http://www.FerrariAds.com/ ) and get a link into the FerrariList email list --- though you might cause them all to have heart attacks when ACTUAL FERRARI CONTENT shows up on that list :-) :-) :-)

Autotrader, Carbuyer, Cars.com, Hemmings, etc. etc. are distant seconds to EBay for getting eyeballs. All the brokers and dealers will see it on EBay too and inform their interested customers.

You might consider contacting each of the NA dealers (letter, fax, call, whatever) with the information on the car. I have met two 275 owners who got their cars through their local dealer - they just told them "Hey - I want one of these - keep your ears open."

You might also contact the larger independents - many of them have huge client bases and know what their cusotmers are looking for (check out the FCA and FOC publications as well as Forza).

Please let us know when all the detail is together - I'm curious to see myself!

Good luck!
Doody.
ross koller (Ross)
Member
Username: Ross

Post Number: 361
Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 3:16 am:   

gorgeous car ! wish i was in a position to buy. l wayne ausbrook, another chatter here, should be able to give you some good guidance.
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member
Username: 4re_gt4

Post Number: 211
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Tuesday, October 01, 2002 - 1:41 am:   

Oh, wow! Oh, wow! Oh, wow! I wish I had the coin. It would be mine!
Jeffrey Caspar (Jcaspar1)
New member
Username: Jcaspar1

Post Number: 25
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 11:54 pm:   

Beautiful Car! Good luck finding it a good home.
James Dixon (Omnadren250)
Member
Username: Omnadren250

Post Number: 293
Registered: 7-2001
Posted on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 11:26 pm:   

Bill,

I was perusing your website.

Is that your Porsche 904???? Amazing car!!!!!
Bill Gammon (Bill_gammon)
New member
Username: Bill_gammon

Post Number: 3
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 11:13 pm:   

Sorry guys, they are case sensitive.

http://www.billgammon.com/images/Oct02/275stunning

http://www.billgammon.com/images/Oct02/275stunning"
http://www.billgammon.com/images/Oct02/front34garage
http://www.billgammon.com/images/Oct02/reargarage"><center><p><hr>
http://www.billgammon.com/images/Oct02/reargarage34

The "O" in Oct02 has to be capitalized. In the event it doesn't post correctly. I apologize for the confusion. I am "decent" at this stuff, not great.
Bill Gammon (Bill_gammon)
New member
Username: Bill_gammon

Post Number: 2
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 11:07 pm:   

Yes, aren't internet frauds fun. Well, I can certainly understand, I am new to you guys.

My experience is that internet scammers usually use some handle or "nic" like Pimpman2023 or Stangracer2002. My name is "my name".

Regardless, I decided to stay inside tonight, enjoy the tape of the F1 race (ABC coverage notwithstanding) and do some preliminary research on selling the jewel.

If questions about my legitimacy keep anyone from providing some info or assistance, well that's just the nature of the beast.

Here are some pics from the weekend. I have hundreds more, but I was cleaning out parts from the car I just put on ebay and thought I would snap a couple.

Well, even with my skills I can't get this board to show the pics. Anyone want to give me the tip. Oh well, I tried UBB and the crude html I am capable of.

[img]http://www.billgammon.com/images/oct02/275stunning[/img]

<imgsrc="http://www.billgammon.com/images/oct02/275stunning"><hr>
<imgsrc="http://www.billgammon.com/images/oct02/front34garage"><hr>
<imgsrc="http://www.billgammon.com/images/oct02/reargarage"><center><p><hr>
<imgsrc="http://www.billgammon.com/images/oct02/reargarage34"><center><hr>
John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Junior Member
Username: Futureowner

Post Number: 154
Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 10:54 pm:   

I have to agree with Arlie on this one. You won't have any trouble as long as you are 100% forthright with your intentions. You should then have no problems finding help here, and you will see how an automoblie message board should really be.
Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie

Post Number: 270
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 10:29 pm:   

Folks on Ferrichat are especially cagey when it comes to someone suddenly appearing on the board and trying to sell something. If you have read these postings for many months, you probably read about the Ferrari raffle scam that was started on this board by a scammer named Sawyerr who supposedly had a legitimate web site. The car apparently never existed because he dropped out of site and no raffle winner was ever announced as promised. Once bitten, twice shy. I'm sure everybody here would love to see photos of your car, but don't be surprised if there are a few "Doubting Thomases".
Bill Gammon (Bill_gammon)
New member
Username: Bill_gammon

Post Number: 1
Registered: 9-2002
Posted on Monday, September 30, 2002 - 10:11 pm:   

Gentlemen (& Ladies),

First post, but I have been enjoying reading Ferrarichat.com for many months. I took me a while to get accustomed to reading from the bottom of the page up, but otherwise, I enjoy reading your tales.

I have extensive internet experience and am well known in other areas of the automotive "net" world, but I am very new to all things Ferrari online.

I come to you guys because I preparing to sell a family heirloom and am interested in where are the best places to get the word out.

The car is a 275 GTB (2cam).

I don't want to just go through one of the big clearinghouse dealers, but I don't know if I want the hassle of ebay either.

I just finished a classic car (rare) auction on ebay and it was one of the singular most painful experiences of my life. I am amazed at all the experts that jumped out to proclaim I was a fraud for merely stating I had such a car. I offered no less than four of the "experts" plane tickets to come here and inspect the car for themselves. I am hoping the Ferrari crowd is a bit more restrained.

I have many photographs of the car and have all the documentation and information that one could possibly want. I am just interested in knowing some of the most frequented Ferrari websites. I have my own website and will be putting together a photographic dossier on the car.

Thanks for any and all assistance and I hope to contribute in some way to the discussion.

I'll throw a pic or two on here if there is any interest. Does this board use the [ubb] code?

Thanks

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