| Author | Message | ||
| Francisco J. Quinones (Frankie)
New member Username: Frankie Post Number: 32 Registered: 8-2002 |
thanks Roel. | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 480 Registered: 2-2002 |
Hey Modman - How do YOU know who can and can't buy them?  Jus' kidding - we're debating because it's fun to do so - we don't drive for any F1/auto-racing teams but we still debate which ones are better? TimN - Passion is a crock? Line up an NSX (a GREAT GREAT car,) against an F355 and it's the flair, sound, design and hand-made PASSION that has us oooohhhing and aaaahing for the Italian..... Sounds stupid but Ferraris really make their drivers get emotional - even just by looking at them - I call this Passion and IMO the McLaren F1 doesn't have it. Performance is secondary - many of the 308/328 owners on this forum could have bought faster cars for their money - instead they didn't - they went for the Ferrari, IMO for their own interpretation of the reasons stated above. | ||
| Modified348ts (Modman)
Member Username: Modman Post Number: 376 Registered: 11-2001 |
Don't care about Mclaren Vs. Enzo, both are supercars and would make no big difference on the street against each other as they are close in comparison regardless of age.. Oh by the way why compare them if you are not in the process of buying one of them, it's a waste of arguemental time. Try comparing what you have to a similar car in price, now that is realistic. | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 296 Registered: 10-2001 |
The passion is what makes me pick a 355 over a 996 Turbo anyday of the week ... | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
New member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 37 Registered: 9-2002 |
Good Point about the 996T vs 360M comparision. I wonder how many bags of groceries you can fit in the F1? | ||
| Neil A. Campbell (Bimmerlover)
New member Username: Bimmerlover Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2002 |
As my first post i love the success of this thread. you guys really know whta your talkin about. now the reason i spoke of everyday usablility is because i know a guy in Ma. who has one and drives it practically averyday. there are storage compartments all over the car for longer trips. not saying that anyone who owns one wouldnt just hop on their jet and fly off, but i think that the mclaren was designed as more of usable car, while the ferrari's intention was more of track car. maybe im wrong but i think that the mclaren was more designed to be all purpose while the enzo has more f1 goals. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1475 Registered: 6-2001 |
The ferrari passion is such a crock. who cares about passion? would you buy a ford escort if ferrari made it because of the passion? If ferraris didnt look the way they did, go the way they go, turn the way they turn, sound the way they sound, or had the really nice interiors they have, i wouldnt buy one. NO car looks as unique as an fcar. This discussion is sort of pointless because if you could afford the Mclaren, you could most likely afford the enzo too. From the way it looks now, it seems like the enzo will scrape the mclaren on the track, but is not as usebale as the mclaren (somehow i dont see either of these cars being used to go to the grocery store though) | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 478 Registered: 2-2002 |
Guys - I just can't get into the Macca - I can't - the engineering is without doubt, some of the most impressive EVER - but where is the PASSION???? Where is the emotion? A friend of mine who posts here regularly says that he has heard of routine service bills of �30,000 - �40,000 (yes that is Pounds sterling) for the F1. If you've got the money, then who cares - I wander what the Enzo will cost to service - I know that the F50 is V. pricey. The McLaren F1 is to the Ferrari Enzo what the 996TT is to the 360M. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1470 Registered: 6-2001 |
Its probaly more fun to accelerate from 40 to 150 than to go 240, especially if it was geared way down. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2737 Registered: 2-2001 |
The McLaren is no doubt a cool car, to me though it would be a hell of a lot cooler if they bumped up the ring and pinion (alright it probably doesn't have a ring and pinion, but whatever that's called, final drive ratio I think) so that it topped out at like 205mph instead of the stupid 245mph or whatever useless number they shot for. With the added power (mechanical advantage) they could up the downforce a ton. Think about how quick it would accelerate then if it is already this quick with the stupid gear ratios it has now. There is simply no need for a car to be geared to go that fast, you would feel the added acceleration 100 times a ride, how often to feel the added top speed. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 785 Registered: 2-2001 |
To expand on Andrew's point, currently in Formula 1 Ferrari's F1-2002 is not even close to having the highest top speed on most tracks. The Williams, Toyota, and McLaren constantly have the highest top speeds on race weekends, sometimes by a significant margin. Yet, Ferrari almost always has the lowest lap times and is ages ahead of the field. What good is top speed if it doesn't translate into fast laps or is not usable? I expect the Enzo to dominate the MLF1 in every category, except top speed and seating capacity. Ernesto | ||
| Andrew (Enzo250gto)
New member Username: Enzo250gto Post Number: 40 Registered: 2-2002 |
I disagree with Bruce when he says "nothing comes close." The McLaren is without a doubt the top exotic of all time (to this date) but this does not mean something else cannot topple it. The McLaren F1 is dated technology compared to the Enzo. The Enzo embodies all the technology Ferrari is putting in their F1 car which is dominating the F1 scene. Example, the Enzo uses the paddles which are faster than any human can shift manually. The McLaren uses a stick. While the McLaren has a wonderful body for downforce the Enzo has just more attention to it and maximizes just the right amount of downforce to match the current speed. Official test numbers are not out yet but I'm sure the Enzo will match or even beat the McLaren. If you say, well top speed of the McLaren is faster, I'll say lets go race in Monaco where you'll be luck to ever see that top speed. I'm sure the Enzo will win. | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 264 Registered: 3-2002 |
lol @ Coop. I wish I had a camera handy when I saw an F40... when I saw the F1 I nearly creamed myself! Anybody see a blue color F1 yet? | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
New member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 36 Registered: 9-2002 |
I think you can easily compare the BMW engine to the Ferrari Engine as far as weight, hp, torque, driveability, etc. As far as a team from Germany to fix the F1, I would imagine they would be from England since the McLaren was built there. Also BMW in New Jersey has trained technicians to work on the Motor. As far as the tranny is concerned it was developed by Weismann here in Costa Mesa California. I think the F40 is stunning, the F50 is beautiful, and I particularly like the looks of the Enzo (work of art), however, I also appreciate the McLaren for its originality. | ||
| Tino (Bboxer)
Junior Member Username: Bboxer Post Number: 152 Registered: 8-2001 |
I stood a few feet from 5 Enzo's in various stages of production and watched one from a few yards on the track that same day. You HAVE to be this close to appreciate the car. The technology invloved is way past the McLaren's, THAT was 90's technology and in this business, a few months are like decades. I am sure some of the materials used on Enzo (engine and chassis) were not "workable" in ML's days. You can't seriously compare a BMW 12cyl concieved in the 80's with F's latest engine techonlogy ! Not to take anything from the ML, I would take the Enzo without a second thought! (even for one lap) | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 254 Registered: 3-2002 |
Jay Leno also has a modified Corvette C5 (ZO6 I think) that is probably faster than his McLaren in the 1/4 mile.. hehe he has a bunch of cool toys. I still agree with the tifosi though. The Enzo is so much more radical, even in black, I think it looks better than the Mac F1. I love the nose. It sceams Formula 1! | ||
| Dave (Netviper)
New member Username: Netviper Post Number: 19 Registered: 11-2001 |
I think the F50 is gorgeous! I think the F40 is awesome. I think the McLaren is Stunning! I think the ENZO is pretty much the ugliest supercar ever made. Just my 2 cents. | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 124 Registered: 9-2001 |
I don't know where you get the idea that you could drive the F1 everyday, but not the enzo. I know that BMW has a fine reputation for good quality engines that have very good reliablity, but this is not your everyday BMW engine and there are only 100 or so of them world wide. Parts are going to be just as expensive. The guy I know that had the yellow F50 drove it all the time because he was waiting for a team from Germany to fly in to fix his McLaren, which he trashed the gearbox on the track. And he did sell the F50 and kept the McLaren, so that might say something also. I think the Enzo and the F1 are both great cars and if you can afford a million dollar car you can afford to repair one also. They are just both different flavors. I agree with manu that the Enzo will probably draw more attention, if that is what you want. But come on the F1 will draw a good amount of attention also. IF you love Ferrari as I do the choice is easy. I think debating which will be more reliable and whether one is .2 of a second faster 0-60 or 0-100 really doesn't matter if you are a BMW fan or a Ferrari Fan. You are looking at passion and shich satisfies your passion better. | ||
| Neil A. Campbell (Bimmerlover)
New member Username: Bimmerlover Post Number: 9 Registered: 10-2002 |
im a big fan of the f50 and f40, in my honest opinion the mclaren is way better looking than the enzo. and the attention to detail in the mclaren is indeed astonishing, the gold leaf, the amount of man hours per car. to me the car is worth it because everything from the baking the carbon fiber body panels was done by mclaren. and to be able to use a car that isnt even maxed out to its potential(can be around 800-900bhp) is indeed an accomplishment. i know my name implies biased but many can attest that this bmw engines is one of the finest engines ever constructed. and fromthe lightweight titaniam exhaust to the magnesium wheels this is the dream of one man followed through to the fullest. i play lotto from time to time, if i hit the big one, give me an enzo and a mclaren,but something tells me i can drive the mclaren as everyday car while many of you know that is out of the question for an enzo. i still think the f50 is the sexiest ferrari ever made. and it held up through the gumball 3000. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 393 Registered: 3-2002 |
a couple of thoughts to the comments - i have seen the mac up close and personal a few times at car shows (and better yet as part of a promo at some fashion show), and the workmanship is unbelievably precise and detailed. the engine bay is lined with gold leaf for better heat shielding for god's sake - so nobody should think it is not 'spiffy', its really a top notch piece of equipment. - i will get unmercifully flamed for this i know but.....does anybody else see elements of the f1 styling in the 360 coupe? the general shape, the twin front air intakes, the window shape, the rear end etc | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 123 Registered: 9-2001 |
The guy who owns the orange car works in my office complex, he has a matching Hummer H2. I have seen the car here a couple times. He now has a personalize plate that reads "sutle" (I know it is mispelled). He is a really nice guy. He had a yellow F50 that he sold a few months ago. He has an F40 and is waiting on both the Pagani Zonda and the Enzo. He is a challenge driver for Orange County. I am a die hard Ferrari fan and would never spend a million plus on a car and not have a Ferrari, but that said the car is very impressive and is really exciting to see on the road. What I like about this guy is that he drives his cars. The first time I met him he had the F50 at an auction which was down a 1/4 mile dirt road, his friend was driving his F40 and it was parked at the beginning of the dirt road. He explained that the F50 had better clearance than the F40. I have also heard stories of him getting the F50 sideways leaving the dealership. Maybe he will give me an impression of the F1 vs. the Enzo when it arrives, but I would bet he would give the nod to the McLaren to justify spending twice as much on it. Most people do not want to admit that something less expensive is better if they forked out the dough. | ||
| shahin tabassi (Shahin)
New member Username: Shahin Post Number: 44 Registered: 4-2002 |
I have seen pretty much every car and this one is my favorite.          | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 293 Registered: 10-2001 |
Coop , very nice pics , the one where you can see the girl looks amazing . What color is that ? looks like orange/rust .. Do you have more ? | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
Member Username: Bobd Post Number: 681 Registered: 3-2001 |
...and we think we have problems finding good people to service our cars. Considering the McLaren is 10 years old, that thing is still damn good looking. | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 471 Registered: 2-2002 |
The F1's design is definitley pure, clean and uncluttered but for me personally it lacks PRESENCE. Some people want discretion and that's fine - I don't - And Yet - I'm not a poseur, but to some extent all Ferrari owners are extroverts (otherwise we'd only drive 996TTs) and I think it's fair to say we DO want wild, classy Italian flair in the design of our cars. IMO the F1 just doesn't cut it in this respect. The F50 looks sensational and I think if we were to line both cars up side-by-side on the street I think the McLaren wouldn't be ignored, just not LOVED the way the F50 wuld be. The Enzo is even wilder. Totally sensational - Just have a look at this - the picture says it all really. http://www.fast-autos.net/ferrari/enzo37.html | ||
| Coop (360)
New member Username: 360 Post Number: 22 Registered: 4-2002 |
Modman I took those shots on Thursday, March 07, 2002, 6:45:06 PM. I took this shot from across the street, then parked my car & ran to the other side and continued shooting when to my surprise the car suddenly took off. I did not see the guy & girl enter the car and did not see them sitting in it due to the glare. Here I'm on my knees in front of the car, pointing my big'o 200mm lens at them, not knowing that they where in it... How embarrassing!!! If you look close, you can see them in pic #2   | ||
| Roel de Fouw (Spawnz)
New member Username: Spawnz Post Number: 30 Registered: 6-2002 |
Frankie: according to the top gear review, the car has the cd player but no radio whatsoever. | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
New member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 35 Registered: 9-2002 |
Gordon Murray never liked turbocharged engines, in his article prior to the F1's debut, he always preferred normally aspirated large displacement motors. Supposedly the V12 could be tweaked to about 900 bhp and a couple were for the Sultan of Brunei. As far as shapes in person I personally feel the car looks stunning. It is not ostentatious, but perfectly compact. Just my 2cents. | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 252 Registered: 3-2002 |
I wonder if you can twin turbo charge a Mac F1... | ||
| Francisco J. Quinones (Frankie)
New member Username: Frankie Post Number: 31 Registered: 8-2002 |
the F1 comes with a custom lightweight kenwood 6disc am/fm stereo.i saw a McLaren in that same color on a tv show,i think the travel channels 10 best or disc or some 10 best exotics list.it was on track at i think sears point or laguna... um,i mean MAZDA raceway at Laguna Seca awesome car!!!the guy had his dog riding in the car with him.i just found that amusing.as for the comparison either car would be an absolute dream to own and drive me thinks.just mah .02 cheers | ||
| Modified348ts (Modman)
Member Username: Modman Post Number: 371 Registered: 11-2001 |
Hey Coop, I've seen that similar car and it looks like the one I saw at the Monterey Italian Concorso. The pic you have is the old Arizona plate where the one I saw had a new personalized Arizona plate and the same exact car and color, I bet it's the same person. I spoked to the person and he said there is nothing close to the way it drives but he hates getting in and out of it. | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 249 Registered: 3-2002 |
I agree with Chris... for $1M the McLaren deosn't look too spiffy... Look at TVRs... they are a fraction of the cost and look incredible if not ugly... but still fantastic.. | ||
| Chris A. (Asianbond)
Junior Member Username: Asianbond Post Number: 70 Registered: 5-2002 |
I don't know what the big fuss is all about on the Mclaren. For a $1mil bucks it looks kind of bland to me, too round, especially the boring tail, and not enough distinctive features, almost like a kit car. Whereas, if you spot a Enzo or Diablo, those really make a statement, or better yet, the Pagani Zonda, if you ever seen one of these up close the workmanship, especially in the engine bay is breathtaking. I even think the new Saleen supercar and old discontinued Jaguar XJ220 makes a better statement. You guys are too hung up on numbers, who cares if one car does .5 a second faster to 60, can you really tell when all hell is breaking loose around you anyways? | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Junior Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 89 Registered: 6-2002 |
Andrew- $1.6mil, plus taxes, I'll cover the track time. Best! Ben. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1464 Registered: 6-2001 |
I didnt read all the posts, but i can tell you one thing- the mclaren sure as heck looks better. It has to be one of the best looking cars ever made. ITs also more useable, if anyone has seen the top gear episode you will know what i mean. | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Junior Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 165 Registered: 3-2002 |
I wonder if it is easier to parallel park the F1 on the right side of the street considering that the seat is in the middle... I guess I'll have to try it out some time. LOL | ||
| Coop (360)
New member Username: 360 Post Number: 21 Registered: 4-2002 |
I've seen this one twice here in Beverly Hills...    | ||
| Jimmy b (Jimmy_b)
New member Username: Jimmy_b Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2002 |
Dave, I agree with you that the roadcar 0-100-0 was almost certainly held by the F1 at the time. The article got it wrong I guess. Ross explained the reason for this perfectly. It remains to be seen if the Enzo will get it. I wouldn't put money on it. Ross, amusing comments on Mr. JC. Respect for your car collection as well. My only point in quoting the article was to show that even before the Enzo came out, the F1 was not considered by everyone to be the greatest roadcar round a circuit (forget numbers, the comment about the back-end going light at speed is a bit of a worry) but all cars have their faults and this could have been the experience on that particular day. I certainly would love to drive one if I ever had the chance. Or an Enzo would be fine. Either or both! In the meantime as I live in the real world, I plan to order a custom Ultima GTR probably next summer (McLaren bought a couple and used them as mules for testing that amazing engine for the F1). It's a UK car, looks like a Le Mans racer, 1700lbs with supercharged 383ci 650bhp American V8 & 200mph. The closest thing to an F1 that I'll ever drive - for about 950,000 dollars less. But that's a whole different thread... | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 251 Registered: 4-2002 |
Sure, it was Autocar Magazine. 11.44 seconds I think. That's moving! | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
New member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 33 Registered: 9-2002 |
Mitchell for my own reference could you please tell me what Magazine did this test? Thanks | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Junior Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 250 Registered: 4-2002 |
No, it was a 7 with a Whipple engine. 800hp, 1700LB's. | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
New member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 32 Registered: 9-2002 |
I think Andy Wallace did a 0-100-0 for either CAR or EVO magazine and it set a new benchmark at the time, if I find the issue I will post the time. I know R&T will have the new test in the December issue of this year. Also Andy Wallace said the biggest problem was traction to 100 mph, if it were a test to 150 mph it would really be impressive. I don't think it was the "7" that beat the McLaren's time, it may have been a special version of the "Ultima" kit car. In fact Gordon Murray used the Ultima for testing components before the F1 came out. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 390 Registered: 3-2002 |
james i read that article as well (i think) but wasn't the author jeremy clarkson? and if i am right about that, then i think a lot of the content can be discounted since he is pretty much a wanker with a big mouth. he may have liked the f40 for the reasons he gave (and who wouldn't), but as for his general comments on the other cars, worthless. i have heard many others speak highly of the bugatti for example which he dismissed as being 'too comfortable', go figure. have also seen article where jonathan palmer, also ex f1, was a test driver and developer w/ gordon murray and drove the mac f1 to the topspeed record, loves the car and swears it is the all time ultimate road car (he would tho wouldn't he). i agree that montezemolo would be well aware of the requirements of the 'worlds greatest supercar' of the moment....lets hope somebody does a comparison pretty soon. | ||
| Dave (Netviper)
New member Username: Netviper Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2001 |
Hmm.. is there a website with this stuff? | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Junior Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 249 Registered: 4-2002 |
The Mac did hold the 0 - 100 - 0 record up until a few months ago when a Super 7 took the title. | ||
| Dave (Netviper)
New member Username: Netviper Post Number: 16 Registered: 11-2001 |
"The F40 wins, because it's the nicest to drive and most useable. And it still holds the road car record for 0-100-0mph" Hmmm.. I don't think so. What was this time? I know the McLaren did it in Motor Trend in like 11.2 or so. They said that was the fastest ever. | ||
| James B (Jimmy_b)
New member Username: Jimmy_b Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2002 |
About a year ago, the UK magazine and TV show of the same name, Top Gear, had a special edition with a group test of some production 'hypercars' that can all do over 200mph. One of their regular testers was Tiff Needell, an ex-F1 pro racer. Max speeds were as follows: Bugatti EB110 214mph, Diablo 208mph, F40 201mph, F1 241mph, Jag XJR15 215mph, GT40 (original!) 200mph, XJ220 217mph and the F50 owner didn't show up.... Remember the Enzo wasn't even out then, and we can reasonably expect it to outperform F40 and F50 in both handling and 'straight line numbers' after Schumi spending some weeks contributing to its development using the only worthwhile test; lap times round a test track. The group test (of both straight line and round a track measurements) verdict: "The F40 wins, because it's the nicest to drive and most useable. And it still holds the road car record for 0-100-0mph.... ....outhandles everything else here". Impressive review for the car with near lowest max speed. The McLaren came fourth, behind GT40 and XJ220, as it was noted that, "at speed the steering becomes vague and that in a fast corner a lack of downforce means traction is compromised" and "I didn't enjoy it but I respect the work that went into it". Can you imagine paying a million dollars for a car and not enjoy it? Hello? Don't get me wrong, I'm never likely to drive either an F1 or an Enzo, much less take one round a test track, so this thread is all conjecture for me as everyone else. However, I really doubt Luca would allow the Enzo out of the factory gates unless it could visibly out-shine the existing 'competition'. There would be few customers for it, if a car from nearly ten years earlier was considered better. I can only dream. Either would be fine..... | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 245 Registered: 3-2002 |
I think it has a custom carbon fiber cd player | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Junior Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 247 Registered: 4-2002 |
No radio. At least, not that I am aware of. It does have a cd changer though. | ||
| Andrew (Mrrou)
Member Username: Mrrou Post Number: 373 Registered: 3-2002 |
Mitchell I am under the impression that the Mclaren came with a 6Disc CD Changer...I assume a radio is included? Andrew | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Junior Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 244 Registered: 4-2002 |
The Mclaren doesn't even have a radio. ;) | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Junior Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 243 Registered: 4-2002 |
With respect I don't think 'which one is faster' is a question that can be answered without some further constraint or qualification. Are we talking 0-30, 0-60, 0-100, standing quarter, mid range e.g. 50-100 (i.e. more real world), 50-150, road or race trim (i.e. ultimate capability) etc etc. More to the point, if its fractions we are talking does it REALLY matter as the potential differences will be washed away by driver abilitites. | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 290 Registered: 10-2001 |
Still , i want to know which one is faster . | ||
| Modified348ts (Modman)
Member Username: Modman Post Number: 364 Registered: 11-2001 |
I like Bret's opinion which is very true and I made a comment on very fast exotics which you can't use to it's full potential on public roads and besides you wouldn't want to take it to the track and take a chance on wrecking it unless you are a billionaire with a few more to replace it. And when I mean fast exotics, I'm talking of ones towards half a mil. | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 240 Registered: 3-2002 |
Jay deosn't like Ferraris? Or does he just not own one... I read about his ZO6.. I love the TigerShark body too... Very nice stuff... | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
New member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 30 Registered: 9-2002 |
Thanks Manu, and next time your in California, I will buy a drink. Thanks for the debate. Jay Leno does not own any Ferrari's at all, just Lamborghinis. He does have a specially built Z06 Corvette with a 427 Skunkworks motor (550hp) from GM. It is actually someone I know that has there F40 in the test that was done I belive at Willow Springs. I will try to find out more about the R&T article, but it should be interesting reading nevertheless. | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 239 Registered: 3-2002 |
"Will someone here please just buy an Enzo/McLaren and sort this out for us!" Sure... when will my $2M check arive? ;) Does anybody know if Jay Leno has an F50? I don't think he does.. | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 465 Registered: 2-2002 |
Tonokaboni - next time you're in London, you can have a drink on me mate! Good heated debate!! I apologise for coming off like a tosser - been said soo many times before but it's difficult to convey *tone* on a website. Will someone here please just buy an Enzo/McLaren and sort this out for us! | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 289 Registered: 10-2001 |
A R&T test of the F40,959 and Mclaren F1 ? thats a laugh ! I hope they will do it as an evolution of the species.. Because the 959 is from 1985 , the F40 from 1987 and they both were priced 1/5 of the F1 price ! | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 238 Registered: 3-2002 |
Just argue about the R&T test... F1 vs. F40 vs. 959? :p hehe | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
New member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 29 Registered: 9-2002 |
Brett makes a good point, unless you are an a pro the times are irrelvant. As far as 0-60 I think that Ferrari quotes 0-100kph in 3.7 for the Enzo which is about 3.5 to 60. However, it should fly to 100. Shahin, I was on the 405 the same day and saw the Z4 and mentioned to my buddy that I bet some guy gets a photo of it, unfortunately I did not have my camera. Mr. Leno takes his McLaren to Autobooks in Burbank once in a while as well as his other fine automobiles and is a very nice guy. The guy in Texas is in the Oil business and at one time wanted to Sell his McLaren for about $800k but since than has decided to keep it, good for him. He also spent $30 grand upgrading his Air Con for the heat (unlike England). By the way Ralph Lauren has 2 of them here as well. However, the nicest one I have seen belongs to a Gentleman in Palos Verdes, CA it is a Burnt Orange car that will appear in R&T in the next issue I believe vs. F40 and 959. By that time maybe we can put some of these track rumors to rest, I belive Manu and I won't have anything to argue about any longer, what a shame. Anyway my 2 cents. | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 237 Registered: 3-2002 |
Great point BretM! | ||
| shahin tabassi (Shahin)
New member Username: Shahin Post Number: 41 Registered: 4-2002 |
105 in the hyundai. 140 in the m3, of course on the track. I dont know if that will fit in the m3 but I have no problem fitting 4 women. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2707 Registered: 2-2001 |
I don't know if anyone brought it up yet, I tried to read all the posts I missed, but I was thinking. None of us are good enough drivers that if we had a McLaren and someone really good (pro, not $30K dollar car pro, but someone making real good money, and hence quite good) had an F50 that we would beat them, and vice versa. The limit of either of these cars is way above any of our personal limits. So, I would get the Ferrari simply because I like Ferraris, not because I could beat anyone in it. If I liked McLaren I would get that instead. | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 235 Registered: 3-2002 |
Well then how fast have you gone in the Hyundai? ...mmm.. I wonder if an S70/2 will fit in the new M3... :D | ||
| shahin tabassi (Shahin)
New member Username: Shahin Post Number: 40 Registered: 4-2002 |
Racer, I was being sarcastic. Its Jay Leno's Mclaren, mines in the shop. He stops by the Rock Store every so often and I was lucky enough to have my camera. | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 234 Registered: 3-2002 |
Modman, magazine test times aren't in stone. This is Automobile were talking about. One of my favorite mags but I can't say they publish the fastest possible times. They gave the Vette Z a low 4 second 0-60. It's been known to get 3.85... I'm sure the Enzo can do 0-60 in under 3.5 seconds with the F1's time being around 3.2 or so. Either way, that's actually something I like about Automobile, they post more realistic times. Not everybody in a Corvette or 360 Modena is going to get sub 4 second 0-60 times ALL the time... 4.3-4.5 is more realistic. I think they did the same thing with their Enzo test. Another note... Road and Track has some funky times too. They post different times for just about each test, they put up the ones on that day, no matter if it's raining windy, or they are way above sea level. I've seen ZO6 times of 4.7 to 60 which is sad for a car like that... | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 288 Registered: 10-2001 |
Modman ,the Enzo isnt faster to 60 mph , but look at the 0-100 mph and 0-124 mph times..they are amazing ! The Enzo 0-100-0 will something great im sure ! | ||
| Modified348ts (Modman)
Member Username: Modman Post Number: 363 Registered: 11-2001 |
Look in the "Automobile" magazine, I picked one up with the spread on the Enzo. It is not faster than the McLaren and the the 0-60 times is the same as the 6.0 Diablo and Murcielago. I was expecting low 3 sec but oh well. Out of 349 made only 70 will be coming to the U.S. 220 are already sold, the reviews look good but the car is a dream for most of us since money don't guarantee you the car from the authors comments. | ||
| william speer (Wspeer)
New member Username: Wspeer Post Number: 28 Registered: 8-2002 |
the same pic was posted several weeks ago but listed as being owned by jay leno. there is an f1 here in texas and was the subject of an article in road and track (i think) a while back. the car is owned by a man in fredisckburg and he uses it as his daily driver. i know a guy who is friends with him and he was telling me stories about driving down old couty roads and through pastures in it. i don't know how many miles it has on it, but it is very well known locally | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 230 Registered: 3-2002 |
shahin, how fast have you gone in it? | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 347 Registered: 4-2001 |
Hi guys, just got back from working out of state for a week... My thoughts on the subject? Unless you have money in pocket, and are ready to buy either one of these cars, who cares which one edges out the other. | ||
| shahin tabassi (Shahin)
New member Username: Shahin Post Number: 39 Registered: 4-2002 |
Yes that was me, how did you know? | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
New member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 28 Registered: 9-2002 |
Shahin, weren't you the guy that got the spy shot of the new Z4 on the 405 for Autoweek on your way to school? | ||
| stephen r chong (Ethans_dad)
Junior Member Username: Ethans_dad Post Number: 85 Registered: 3-2002 |
All this discussion has prompted me to go purchase "Driving Ambition-The Official Inside Story of the McLaren F1" by Doug Nye. It really is a great read and a terrific addition to any car enthusiasts book collection. Still undecided on the F1 vs F50 issue, but do feel that the Enzo will become the new standard for supercars. Mind you, I believe that the fact that the F1 stood on top of the hill for a decade is quite a testiment to the initial concept and automobile, and justifies it's respect. If the F1 didn't exist, I'm not sure the Enzo would have had the same mission statement. | ||
| Omar Hameed Butt (Auraraptor)
New member Username: Auraraptor Post Number: 20 Registered: 9-2002 |
"The BMW engine is two M3 engines stuck together - don't believe me? BMW themselves used to stick the McLaren in their old M3 adverts. (I say CRAP engine from a originality of design point of view). " Actually, although your premis is slightly true as it was the orgin of the bmw M70 v12 engine, the S70/2 engine was, more or less, a custom borred out M70 with different internals...the M3 comparison is not quite true. The orginal SOHC M70 was actually 2 bmw I6s in tandem...but after that the other engines were all more or less complete works...in other words the M73 and the S70/2 and the new 6L engine. | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 287 Registered: 10-2001 |
Shahin , its too expensive | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 286 Registered: 10-2001 |
"The McLaren doesn't handle well on the track? Did it not win the 24 Hours of Le Mans outright in 1995? Did also not win the sportscar championship the same year? " thats a race car ! | ||
| shahin tabassi (Shahin)
New member Username: Shahin Post Number: 37 Registered: 4-2002 |
how u like my car?  | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
New member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 27 Registered: 9-2002 |
Sorry Manu if I seemed so aggressive, I just find it funny that someone who keeps stating that an F50 can whip a McLaren on a track has no times or facts to back them up. But rather opinions of his buddies who sell Ferrari products. As far as comparing stock vs. racecars who is the one that started speaking about modified F40's? I have no doubt that an Enzo might be faster around a racetrack, however until I see a comparison who is to say? | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 227 Registered: 3-2002 |
It's common sense that the Enzo will be faster in certain conditions... well, most conditions... | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Junior Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 239 Registered: 4-2002 |
Since we have no comparable road course times, you are just guessing. In fact, all the road course times I have seen from the F1 have been better than the F50 on the same course. Once again, I sure hope the Enzo is faster, with this much time, they have no excuse not to be. | ||
| Peter S�derlund /328 GTB -88 (Corsa)
Member Username: Corsa Post Number: 257 Registered: 4-2001 |
A race car is a product of a team effort not a badge. Better to talk stock cars. The Enzo got 344 kg downforce at 124 mph, 775 kg at 186 mph and 585 kg at 218 mph. The front and rear flaps changes as speed increases to prevent high speed over steer. All hot air from the coolers are directed over the body to prevent disturbances of the under body air flow and heating up the brakes. Most of other sports cars have a substantial amount of lifting force, the F1, I don't know. Shifting takes 0.150 seconds (don't try this at home). Brembo have developed Carbon-Ceramic Material System for Enzo. For the first time suitable for road use. Test driver Benuzzi says: �If you consider the Enzo weighs 800 kg more than the Formula one car, these brakes are better. There are no vibration on track, no variation in their performance hot or cold. They are the best.� Bridgestone have developed special tires for the Enzo. I believe someone mentioned Porsche Turbo somewhere in this thread. This car got 80% better power to weight ratio than the latest Porsche turbo. Enzo is about 4,5 seconds faster round Fiorano than the F50. At Fiorano it got 1,4 g�s. Stock tires. Petrotta at Ferrari says that the weight penalty due to homologisation (emission, safety etc.) is about 150-200 kg. Enzo is a very modern car developed 8 years later than the F1 by a company which, for the moment, got 4 consecutive F1 constructors championships, 3 drivers C's, over 50 consecutive podiums. This year; 14 victories, 8 doubles, 25 podiums and 205 points. Add to that the fact that Schumacher have had some input in the cars handling and that Mr. Montezemolo ordered everybody working on the design to go "one step to far". They have one of the best wind tunnels (Yes plural) in the world (for cars). Steve Cropley said: � We have all known that somebody, some day, would build a better car than Britain�s McLaren F1, which seemed so remarkable in 1994. Ferraris Enzo is that car. It�s no faster in straight line. But its handling, roadholding, steering, brakes and even its ride comfort, are all comprehensively better. Ferrari has built the new supercar benchmark, and given it the greatest name of all. Of course MS in a stock Enzo will simply destroy DC in a stock F1 on track. Anyone claiming otherwise is very very naive. Ciao Peter | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 224 Registered: 3-2002 |
Manu, I also agree. Tiff's skills are godlike. He can drive the piss out of every car so if he gives browny points to the F50, forza Ferrari! Have you seen him drift a 911 Turbo in a circle the blast out? Perfection. I hope I can aquire just a fraction of his skill... | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 464 Registered: 2-2002 |
Tonakaboni??? Why so aggressive? FACT: Sorry to say this AGAIN - but it cannot be overstressed. Its VERY simple - the ENZO corners roughly 30% better than the F1 - why ? BECUASE IT PULLS: 1.36 G.... (what more do you need to know). What don't you get about that figure? The F50 will whip an F1 - look at the other posts here. Read Tiff Needles comments in the F50 versus Ferrari F1 Car test in Top Gear where he compares it to the McLaren.... I can't see the relevance of the Endurance Championship - AREN'T WE TALKING ABOUT ROAD CARS????? My erm *friend* is VERY CLOSELY related to: www.talacrest.com. Go there and LEARN (have a CLOSE look at their stock list) - We're not all sh*tchatters - my *friends* know their stuff. - Hey John - How ya doing mate? Respect due to all pistonheads! | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
New member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 26 Registered: 9-2002 |
Berger never crunched a McLaren, he too Ron Dennis around Suzuka in one, afterwards Ron Dennis tried to do a Berger and he spun off and hit the barriers, when he got out his face was red and had his tail between his legs. Bernd P. from BMW managed to crash an F1 on the autobahn late one night with his wife in the car and a female passenger who broke her arm. There are currently a dozen F1s in the country. I am pretty certain on a track with all its technology an Enzo would be quicker than a F1 but I doubt a F40 or F50 (except for the F50 GT1) would be close. Again how many races did the F40 win in competition against the McLaren? | ||
| Neil A. Campbell (Bimmerlover)
New member Username: Bimmerlover Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2002 |
i am unbiased, i would take either if you gave them to me. i promise i would love either equally, thus the title of unbiased. lol | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 750 Registered: 2-2001 |
I am sure "Bimmerlover" is very unbiased... LOL! Ernesto | ||
| Ricardo (Ricardo)
New member Username: Ricardo Post Number: 13 Registered: 9-2002 |
Remember that Gordon Murray said at the time that one of the problems he had by building the ultimate road car was that people would also want to race it and since it was not the purpose of the F1�s design to race, it would be forever compromised as a track car. All the ferraris from f40 to enzo were track cars first and road cars second. We all agree that the F1 was greatly compromised in the downforce area...by how much or how little none of us seems to have an actual figure and how it would translate in lap times. Also, the optional downforce package would go some way to solve this problem. Comparing it to a michelloto ferrari would not be a fair thing in my eyes, since there is a F1 LM which produces 680 bhp and weigths less than the road car as well. Also, there is a rumour of a 740bhp f1 car that was built for a costumer. Finally, from what I have read one of the things that makes the F1 engine so good is the ability it has to rev up really fast due to a very light flywheel. | ||
| Neil A. Campbell (Bimmerlover)
New member Username: Bimmerlover Post Number: 5 Registered: 10-2002 |
well, being a non-biased thread starter, i hav read some of the comments here and its amazing to me that people cant get there ferrari loyalty out of the way to make an objective decision/opinion. i personally think the mclaren is a used beautiful car as shown in the pics. if i had a million dollars back then i would have had an f50, also a peice of art, and a mac. the mclaren would probably lose to an enzo because ferrari designed the car to perform better than it. its simple, it was made to be the mac killer to eliminate any shadow of a doubt that it was the ••••. i know people will say they simply tried to improve on the f50. if that were the case the hp numbers and torque numbers wouldnt be so close to the macs. and anyone who says that bmw engine isnt one of the best engines of all time is also in need of psychiatric help as well. i just think that people should just take the car for what it is. it may not have the stallion on the badge but nonetheless, that car is a performer. im sure schumacher could have that mac battling the f50 anyday. there not as inferior as people make them out to be. •••• i want one too. i think that ralph lauren has two, the guy from ameritech in texas, leno, and i saw wyclef jean's at a car show in nyc, and the owner of herb chambers definately has one as well. | ||
| John Moretti (Moretti)
New member Username: Moretti Post Number: 32 Registered: 11-2001 |
Manu, I was with you on Pistonheads and still with ya man here Sooner or later we'll get people to realise the Enzo is a quantum leap from the F1 and so it should be or why else keep building cars like these ?!! The F40 beat the F1s in races 5 YEARS AFTER it went out of production and the F50 was a leap from the F40 and the Enzo will blow the F50 away (will get this confirmed before the end of the year from a friend who is going to Fiorano to drive both). The F1 was a great car for it's day but time has moved on and if you want to drive superfast today you'd take the Enzo not the F1. The brakes alone are one of the biggest advances but i think we should get Gerhardt Berger to take both cars to the track and then the Enzo would really show how much better it is (for those that don't know, Berger crunched Ron Dennis' Big Mac so his record is tarnished with these cars ) That cornering figure of 1.36 or whatever is unbelievable for a road car, was that on slicks or Pirelli Corsas or someting similar ?? | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
New member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 25 Registered: 9-2002 |
For whoever is interested the McLaren designed by Peter Stevens and put through the McLaren F1 Wind Tunnel has exceptional downforce as recorded in the book "Driving Ambition". The F50 and now the Enzo also has great downforce, but the F40 was never designed specifically that way. By the way I love the F40 as well. One more thing if you want to compare a tuned F40 (Michelotto) you can also get a Le Mans Downforce package for the McLaren although I think it ruins the intrinsic beauty of the car. Just my 2 cents. | ||
| Andrew (Mrrou)
Member Username: Mrrou Post Number: 372 Registered: 3-2002 |
I think one belongs to Ralph Lauren. -Andrew | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
New member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 23 Registered: 9-2002 |
Manu, your expressing your opinions not facts. Again what track did the F50 beat the F1 at? So the V12 is two M3 engines and the torque of the Enzo is much more? Lets see the Enzo has 485 lbs torque at 8500 Rpms the McLaren only has 479...wow that is huge. By the way forget watching the street car race on TV, I was just giving you results of a championship where the McLaren dominated. And by the way who cares what you think about taking an F40 vs a McLaren on the track it already happened it was called the Endurance Championship...But I know you have your friend who told you this and that. Great unfortunately facts are facts. | ||
| Randy (Schatten)
Member Username: Schatten Post Number: 402 Registered: 4-2001 |
Ricardo - you said it best - cars are meant to be driven. They aren't meant to be compared to 'desktop racers' that compare others comments and stats. On the track.. none of that really matters. And on the street, oh well. I can't believe that everyone is critizising the F1 that much. Gordon Murray designed it as a STREET car and with the explicit desire for it to be a STREET car NOT a car designed for the track. And yea, it won lots of races too. That was merely secondary. This is a supercar, and I applaud anyone, even Jay Leno, that takes it to the track - because I know there are car enthusiasts out there who have the passion for driving and not just a marque. Also keep in mind, the Enzo comparisons - well, if you read the CAR magazine article about the two - the F1 didn't have carbon/composite/ceramic brakes because the technology wasn't developed at the time to allow them to heat up to operating temperatures on the street and still be a drivable car. | ||
| John Pelliccio (Giovanni_p)
New member Username: Giovanni_p Post Number: 4 Registered: 8-2002 |
I've not seen an Enzo in person, but I did see an F1 at New Hampshire International Speedway last summer. Say what you want about the engine or the looks- EVERYTHING comes to a halt when an F1 goes by. Several people from my 300ZX club were waiting at the entry gate when an F1, followed by a then-new E46 M3, came buzzing in, banging off F1-style downshifts as it pulled into the parking lot. It sounds like nothing else I've ever heard (probably because I don't have a ferrari). The car was in one of the garages at this SCCA event, with the doors open and the keys left on the center console. Made you wonder how far you could get before you got pulled over, and whether the fines and/or the jail time would be worth it! (The consensus was 50 miles, and YES YES YES!!!) The car was gone by the parade lap at the end of the day- I was hoping to see it on the track. -John P PS- I have no idea how many of these there are in the States. Jay Leno's is one. There is one in Texas somewhere. This particular car is rumored to belong to Herb Chambers, a local car dealer.   | ||
| Ricardo (Ricardo)
New member Username: Ricardo Post Number: 12 Registered: 9-2002 |
Someone mentioned that there was a test of the F50 vs the F1 in a portuguese magazine. Which Mag? From what I know the only portuguese that was allowed to drive the mclaren and review it for a mag can�t drive s**t. Anyway, Tiff Needell from bbc said that the only way to make the F1 fast around a track was by driving with the accelerator, drifting the rear very early. I don�t know of many test drivers that can do that in a 627 bhp car... I have been involved in a road test for a portuguese magazine some 10 years ago where we pitched a 348 ts vs a honda fireblade motorcycle, and I learned you should not believe everything you read. Finally, if you crave for more downforce for your F1, mclaren will gladly supply a downforce packege which is available for retrofit since the days of the BPR championship. Yes, I love the mclaren but I also love ferrari. Cars for road use are not about seconds a lap or quarter mile times,, they are about driving! Even on track days, the time of a lap is irrelevant...Just think of the difference slicks would make to any of the cars... | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Junior Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 238 Registered: 4-2002 |
Manu, nothing against you of course, however I disagree with you premise that the F50 is faster than the F1. Based on my information, it is not. Maybe the person you talked to was just better at driving the F50. Maybe the F50 was setup for the track better than that F1 (a good dial-in is worth MANY seconds one some tracks, ask William or anyone who tracks their car) The lap times I have seen indicate the F1 will out lap the F50 by a wide margin. Will the Enzo make up for that? Most likely on a tight course. On a fast course? Most likely not. Of course, this is pointless to argue as we do not have figures for the Enzo as of yet. However I look forward to knowing which one of us is correct. (for the record, I hope you are, we need a better performing car.) | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Junior Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 84 Registered: 6-2002 |
Is it just me, or does the Enzo really just BEG to be tracked? Even more than the F40. Anyone else get that sense? That you just have to drive the SNOT out of it on a road course? Something calling you?? Best! Ben. | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 462 Registered: 2-2002 |
Mitchell - just because it has "ACTIVE DOWNFORCE" does not mean that it has more downforce than the F50. Here are FACTS according to people who have driven both - As regards the F50: It turns SUBSTANTIALLY BETTER (read faster) than the F1. It brakes better (faster) F1. It has greater traction (call it corner-exit speed) than the F1. It has greater high-speed stability than the F1 (high speed handling characteristics). The F50 looks WAYYYYYYY better too. I pass that McLaren Showromm on Park Lane about 4 times a week - I think the F1 looks crap. This endless weight/acceleration/boy racer/standing quarter mentality is pointless. Put the F50 and the F1 on some twisties and the F1 will not see where the great Ferrari went. As the Enzo is conclusively superior to the F50 in all elements (exclude looks/sound - these are, of course, subjective) the Enzo will EAT the McLaren for breakfast. WHY? The straight line advantage the F1 *may* have over the Enzo is marginal to say the least especially given that the Enzo has a paddle-shift gearbox. The McLaren cannot pull 1.36 G in a corner and no single car has ever come close to that figure. No Lambo, no Bugatti, no NOTHING. The Mclaren is comprehensively defeated by the F50 and hence THRASHED by the Enzo. Lets hear it Mitchell - | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Junior Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 237 Registered: 4-2002 |
How can this look bad to anyone?  | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Junior Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 236 Registered: 4-2002 |
"how much down force can it really have if it can travel at 240mph? NOT A LOT." The concept of active down force is lost on you I see... The fact is, the F50 is not faster than the F1. Does not out brake it, is heavier, slower to accelerate, and turns about as well. How can it be faster with worse brakes, less speed and more weight? A: It's not. Maybe if you stick them on an auto x track. How fast are they at the ring? | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 285 Registered: 10-2001 |
A portuguese magazine some years ago tested the F50 and the F1 at Estoril. THe F1 was almost 2 sec slower than the F50 per lap ... The really weak point of the Mclaren is the lack of downforce and it really shows on non straight tracks ... If anybody still has that test that would be great to have it scanned .. | ||
| Peter S�derlund /328 GTB -88 (Corsa)
Member Username: Corsa Post Number: 256 Registered: 4-2001 |
All of my votes goes to Manu. Ciao Peter | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 459 Registered: 2-2002 |
Tonakoboni - Watching TV (and RACING at that, is fairly crap way of debating the merits of ROAD CARS......) This quote is taken froma another website from a chap called 308GT4: "as having spoken to one of the local Ferrari mechanics, who goes over to Maranello every year for the latest training, has had the opportunity to drive all Maranellos greats plus a few of their customers toys that have turned up and he says without a shadow of doubt that the F50 is the greatest car a performance dude could ever drive and it will eat an F1 on a track so God only knows how easily the Enzo would kill it." http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?t=18242&f=63&h=0&p=2 Comparing the track performance and equating it to a road car is invalid. Jeremey Clarkson once described the non-LM McLaren as deadly for simply having very little downforce for it's power - when compared to the F50 he said that it pitches and rolls like a steamer on the waves.... All this tech talk about the great McLaren is can be ended very easily - how much downforce can it really have if it can travel at 240mph? NOT A LOT. The McLaren chassis is WAY inferior to the F50 - it's simply doesn't have enough grip for all the power. I remember reading about a rich UK computer whizz who killed himself and 2 passengers as the car broke away in a straight line (!) as he overtook. The BMW engine is two M3 engines stuck together - don't believe me? BMW themselves used to stick the McLaren in their old M3 adverts. (I say CRAP engine from a originality of design point of view). Also the ENZO WAY WAY out-torques the McLaren. THE McLAREN DOES NOT PULL 1.36G IN CORNERS. And that's the bottom line. The Enzo generates a fairly shocking 735kg of downforce.... the McLaren does not compare. Even the F50 is a far superior handling car so I concur that the ENZO WILL DESTROY THE MCLAREN. As I said before - take a road going - non-LM McLaren and a very mildly tweaked Michelloto F40 - the F40 will destroy the Mclaren around a track. And to be quite honest - nobody that could afford one, wanted one, when they came out. It lacks charisma, passion and most importantly emotion. Line up the ageing F40 next to the F1 and the difference is obvious. | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 217 Registered: 3-2002 |
BretM... There are classics that are sold for much more than $1M. They are driven and even tracked too. They are expensive, but what's the point of buying such a car if you won't track it? If you are to spend $670k on a car, and you work hard for your money (not 90% of celebs) you are either crazy or a car nut. But any car nut that wouldn't take his Enzo to the track is crazy... | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2706 Registered: 2-2001 |
Kind of on the note, I saw an Ultima GTR on Saturday when I was home in NJ. It's a British car powered by a small block chevy, usually 6 liter. That thing is nasty as hell. Best part about it, it costs like $60K. A car that will out accelerate either of the two here for that kind of money, and would probably out turn and out brake (it's lighter than either of them also). It's pretty much a streetable race car though, not as comfortable as these. My thought is if you went a la GT40 with a big block instead. Could you picture putting the new 572ci chevy crate motor in a car like this (over 600hp and 650lb ft). You could probably set up an over 700hp NA engine in a car that weighs just over 2000lbs. I like Ferrari so much, I would have a hard time getting another sports car beside them. If I had a good job though it would be hard not to get a car like this, to park next to the 308 of course. Then you could go to FCA events and laugh at Enzo owners, assuming any would actually track them. These cars are so expensive how can you really use them, doesn't it defeat the point of a race car? Granted I'd get an F50, F40, Enzo, etc in second if I had the necessary funds but I don't know if I could track it, autocross, etc like its made for. | ||
| Patrick (Patrickr)
Junior Member Username: Patrickr Post Number: 59 Registered: 4-2002 |
The best Gordon Murray test I have seen is the McLaren test... what a beautiful car! Anyone else see one at the McLaren "dealership" in London?  Snapped about three years ago... I think it is perty ;) I have a much larger picture if anyone wants me to send it to them Patrick | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 214 Registered: 3-2002 |
Som people still think the McLaren is god... sheesh... at least admit there are cars faster than it in some areas. If the Enzo weighed as much as a McLaren F1 the F1 would be toast... | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2703 Registered: 2-2001 |
The Ferrari's too heavy. I like it a lot, but they're wasting their time IMO until they realize that a 2000lb car can be made infinitely faster than a 3000lb one, they're going in the wrong direction here. If you want a comfortable Ferrari buy a 456. I would still take an Enzo over a McLaren though, my somewhat blinded loyalty to Ferrari I guess. | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
New member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 21 Registered: 9-2002 |
Excuse me Manu, but exactly where do you get your information from? Did you bother ever watching the FIA Sportscar Championships with the McLaren cars that throttled everybody in the Mid 90's. So exactly what road course was the Mac beat by the F50? My friend here who own Newport Autosport has an F40, had an F50 (sold) and a McLaren F1. According to him the Mac would destroy the other two. Well I guess its good to get your information from your friend with the F40 that won what 1 race against the McLaren in the competiton from 95-97. | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Junior Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 232 Registered: 4-2002 |
Sorry, but the only road course test I know of with the two cars said the Mac "raped" the F50. | ||
| Neil A. Campbell (Bimmerlover)
New member Username: Bimmerlover Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2002 |
"The McLaren F1 is actually no match for even a Ferrari F50 let alone an Enzo - around the twisties. It's nothing but a straight line rocket - the F50 which gives away so much in power, torque and excess wieght will destroy an F1 in anything but a straight line." -seriously doubt that one | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1451 Registered: 2-2001 |
Hmm, Big Mac Vs Il Comendatore, truly a King Kong Vs Godzilla match up I'll take a Porsche 911 GT1 Thanks | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 171 Registered: 4-2002 |
The McLaren that raced at LeMans was detuned in the engine compartment, and forced to avoid using the active underbody aerodynamics. The engine was detuned with an air restrictor to around 600 HP. The road car has a set of active vanes to control underbody airflow at different speeds. These are considered movable aerodynamic devices at LeMans, so the race car had to remove the active control. Therefore it needed a wing to control the car aerodynamically. This is a situation where the road car actually was faster than the race car. | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 458 Registered: 2-2002 |
The McLaren F1 is actually no match for even a Ferrari F50 let alone an Enzo - around the twisties. It's nothing but a straight line rocket - the F50 which gives away so much in power, torque and excess wieght will destroy an F1 in anything but a straight line. The "staggering beauty" of the F1 - has led to a shape where you cannot sink the throttle in any of the lower gears through lack of grip and downforce - not even in a straight line. NO - I haven't driven one - so I'll report the results of those who have. And to be honest I think that for �630,000 it looks dull... Why? I've seen two on the road and I can tell you that a Ferrari 308 is way more exciting and pretty to look at. Many people criticise the 360's front end - in fact the headlights and air vents are pretty much the same as the "beautiful" McLaren......?? I don't get it? In fact a nearby dealer has a Michelloto Ferrari F40 in their showroom that I was shown on Thursday. It's been lightened and made more powerful (and sits on a Tubi ) - even this 12 year old car will thrash the hell out of F1 - in fact this one will do it even in a straight line. | ||
| John Delvac (Johndelvac)
Junior Member Username: Johndelvac Post Number: 99 Registered: 11-2001 |
I saw something about McLaren on TV that may have said a requirement of buying one was having a factory trained mechanic on payroll. Maybe that was the Bugatti? Does anyone know what I'm talking about? TV -vs- dream, I don't know... | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
New member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 19 Registered: 9-2002 |
Thank god on this post we can all give our opinions in a dignified manner. Thanks everybody for sharing your thoughts on this matter, too bad about the 275 thread, its a shame that Wayne got so upset because of a couple of loud mouths. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Junior Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 82 Registered: 6-2002 |
Heck, I have no idea. I would love to spend a day at the track driving both cars and tell you though I'd expect the Enzo to out-brake the F1 (even with the extra weight. The Enzo's brakes I HAVE seen, and they're incredible. Haven't seen anything like this outside of LMP900 cars. Wether the Enzo can carry it's extra bulk through coners though 10 years of suspension development, and the extra downforce, remains to be seen! Both cars have essentially the same motor as far as I can see it. (with the Enzo's being in higher state of tune. maybe. That 6litre DOHC BMW V-12, as someone mentioned, is the stuff legends are made of.) I'm sure that if the F1 had to be made today, it would be as heavy as the Enzo, 1992 standards (was it ever even federalised in the 'states? As a real production car?) were MUCH more leniant. No airbags! There is a huge process to crash-testing, the car must crumple outside the cabin, and the cabin must remain rigid to protect against intrusion. Not too easy with composites, and an absolute performance design criteria! Best! Ben. | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Junior Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 231 Registered: 4-2002 |
Tono, I am also with you on this one, in my view from the available information and without being in a position to drive either the F1 Mac seems to me to be a much better all rounder, which considering its relative age is astounding. Its about as close to a no compromise road car that you could get. In terms of cosmetics, I don't think either are in the league of best ever looking cars, but I think the McLaren is the most acceptable of the pair, the Enzo, as I have said since first seeing images of it, looks an artistic blunder. Regarding airconditioning, surely its availability or efficiency is not an issue when considering performance or ownership of either of these cars, most are not going to get driven much in any case. Regarding F car aircon, my 348 system works just fine thanks, equally as good as the Merc SLK, BMW Coupe or Porsche 928 I had previously...I would suggest those that think otherwise for this model have a problem that neesd sorting (leaks or need for a regass, or compressor problem etc etc). Shame about the 275 thread, there are some toss**rs on here! The guy seems to have a near mint rare F car available for sale and he's come on here and got bu** f**ked...crazy world we live in. | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
New member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 16 Registered: 9-2002 |
Just aske Leno what the greatest car created ever was. As far as crash standards a McLaren test driver rolled one at 150 mph+ in the Nambian desert. In frontal impact testing the Steering rack moved a quarter of an inch. Apparently the ones in the U.S. have to meet emission standards just not D.O.T. through S&D law. They made a 100 because at the time the economy was sour had they continued in the mid to late 90's they could have sold many more. Why is it that the McLaren is the only supercar of its era that is still appreciating? The work that Gordon Murray did was as close to F1 as it got at the time. Another good point that BMW engine, possibly the greatest engine ever made, even today with the developement the Enzo's motor is not much more powerful or torquey. The "3" seater arrangement with the driver in "f1" position was something no one else thought of before (there was a ferrari showcar from the 60's that had it as well, but never produced). If you have had the fortune to look at the compactness and assembly of an F1 rather than read about it in the magazines, I think your appreciation would grow tremendously. Not starting a flame here, I own a Ferrari, but giving the car its dues. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Junior Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 243 Registered: 1-2002 |
Ernesto, That's what I thought you meant, not trying to argue. You are correct, the F1 did indeed benefit from a more leniant period in histroy. The Enzo even now is $400k the F1's junior, I suppose to some it's justified; for the money its hard to say, especially since my driving skill is in no way capable of pushing either car to it's limit; however, by comparison, the F1 makes the Enzo look like a 'prodcution' car, by the numbers. Fortunatly, I've seen an F1 in person, and was stunned by how beautiful they really are, and how compact, now I just need to see the Enzo. The F1, I believe, will always be a marvel in the history of automoblies, it's an icon, and it will take something of equal caliber to unsettle it, just reading the documented history behind the car makes you appreciate it in an almost indescribale way, I would love to see a similar book to document the Enzo's creation. In the end, when you talk of million and sub-million dollar cars and the respective performance, it can quickly become much a kin to splitting hairs. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 740 Registered: 2-2001 |
Hugh, I never meant to imply that the F1 didnt comply with safety standards. My point is that current, more strict, standards affect all new supercar entries. The McLaren is an excellent car, and I understand that it behaved very well in crash tests. But the fact is that at twice the price of an Enzo, they are not comparable, just like you wouldn't compare a 360 Modena with a twice as expensive Lambo Murcielago. Ernesto | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Junior Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 242 Registered: 1-2002 |
Ernesto, " newer safety standards like side impact protection, airbags, smog equipment, noise regulations, etc etc etc." This is not true, the F1 did indeed have to conform to noise and pollution regulations, hence the amazing array of tubes and pipes at the back of the car, it's headers cost more than most luxury sedans. Also, the F1 underwent crash testing and safety testing in order to legalize it for road use, pehpas you could argue that the standards were more leniant then, but it still had to comply. If you like, I can look up the pertinent info, I've got "Driving Ambition'. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 738 Registered: 2-2001 |
The A/C in my Ferrari works perfectly well, better than a lot of cars I have been in. I think (hope) the Enzo will be faster than the F1 around certain tracks. Of course, the Enzo is heaver, but then again the F1 didnt have to conform to American and newer safety standards like side impact protection, airbags, smog equipment, noise regulations, etc etc etc. The McLaren is an awesome car, whose top speed probably wont be beaten for a while. But like somebody else mentioned, for $1.0M ten years ago, that is more than twice the price of an Enzo in present value dollars, it better be good! If Ferrari decided to produce and sell a $1.3 million car I guarantee it would beat the F1 in every aspect. Dont forget the fact that they had to cut short the McLaren production run because of lack of demand. Ernesto | ||
| Neil A. Campbell (Bimmerlover)
New member Username: Bimmerlover Post Number: 2 Registered: 10-2002 |
i actually watch that mclaren top gear test by gordon murray, and let me tell you i have never seen a professional F1 driver so shocked/fearful of the amount of power the mclaren has. in addition the video also highlighted the potential everday usage of the mclaren. the owner of ameritech who loaned his car to car and driver for their test supposedly uses it as a daily driver so... one cannot forget the fact that the car is truly a bmw engine so their is a great deal more reliability i think when you have a german engine(im biased, lol) but i think the sheer auro of the assembly and exclusivity makes me want a mc'y more. dont get me wrong if i won the mega millions tomorrow i would have one of each in my driveway. but i think that the most significant quality that the mclaren has over the ferrari is the working a/c, ferraris a/c's are a joke, and the ability to get your threesome from the club to your house without lapping it. p.s. everyone should download that road test. its on kazaa. well worth the download. because it shows the manufacturing, usability, and performance. | ||
| martin J weiner,M.D. (Mw360)
Member Username: Mw360 Post Number: 587 Registered: 5-2001 |
Sat in Jay Leno's Mc laren which was being federalized in Conn.The driver's seat is in the middle and it felt wierd.Told he pd 1.1 million(for starters). | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 210 Registered: 3-2002 |
The F50 handled better (from what I've heard) than the F1, race cars aside, so I think the Enzo will be faster all out, except for top speed. | ||
| Dave (Netviper)
New member Username: Netviper Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2001 |
I personally think the McLaren F1 would easily beat the Enzo. I also think it is MUCH better looking. I seriously doubt the Enzo will do 0-100 in just over 6 seconds, but we shall see. The McLaren did it in 6.3. Only time will tell. | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
New member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 15 Registered: 9-2002 |
Andrew I concur that since the 355 they have been pretty much on the money. Onething that was interesting was that they never wanted to test the F50 vs. F40, from what I hear the F40 was the faster car. Also besides Airbags, the McLaren was very much refined with Air-Con, great CD System, Luggage holder, and Power Windows. You don't see many supercars that you can carry luggage in. Your comment about the GTR having a large wing at Le Mans, remember that active aero aids were not allowed at Le Mans, therefore, the big wing. In fact in the book "Driving Ambition", Gordon Murray developed the downforce generating body (hence small wing) that Ferrari and Lamborghini Murcielago are now using. He had active fans from his Brahbam Fan car days for keeping the right venturi effect under braking loads. Those were all no-no's at Le Mans. I wish the economy had not been so bad and Murray and his team could have continued development on the car. Had it had Servo assist for braking and steering, and the size (in my eyes perfect for a supercar) remained the same, it would have been something. Nevertheless it is because of cars like the McLaren that Ferrari has pushed the envelope with the Enzo. Just my 2 cents. | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 275 Registered: 10-2001 |
Yes i do have that EVO issue, as i said , i also like this kind of sportcar , but its just impossible for Ferrari to launch a car like that with no Airbags, etc..unless they want to restrict themselves to the UK where everything on wheels is homologable (sp?) The Mclaren vs Edonis test is nice but as they said , they couldnt push the Edonis so we have to wait , same goes for the Enzo . I dont think Ferrari has been optimistic with its figures , not with the post 355 lineup anyway , and never with the super cars ( F40/ F50 ) .. I would also love to see a Enzo vs F1 ( vs Carrera GT / Edonis / Veyron ) ..that would be awesome ..Esp at the Ring . | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
New member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 14 Registered: 9-2002 |
Andrew do you have the EVO issue with the Enzo and Nick Mason's McLaren? It is good piece on the McLaren vs. Edonis (bugatti chassis) and performance figures. Don't get me wrong I love the Enzo. I just find the original McLaren as a more pure supercar. In addition the McLaren at Le Mans had air restrictors on it as well to lower the HP. One thing don't forget to keep in mind, when the Germans state performance and power figures they are very conservative. In the past Ferrari has been lets say more optimistic. I would love to see a showdown between the Enzo and the McLaren. | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 274 Registered: 10-2001 |
Well the Mclaren that won the Mans race was a GTR , with a big Wing attached to it . We are talking about the F1 . Also i remember how several times the Igol F40 GTE proved faster around the track ..not bad for a car with no factory support and 8 years old.. I also like sportscar that way , but its simply not possible anymore to have them built it that way if you want to be profitable . The Enzo would have been lighter had Ferrari built it in 1992 .. I have that Car issue where Gordon Murray shows how biased he is by dissing on the Enzo even though he never drove one. | ||
| bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 962 Registered: 4-2002 |
thank you mr, tonokaboni...my sentiments.. i guess we have to see them neck and neck on the track with rubens and schumi in each car to determine the outcome... bruce | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Junior Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 230 Registered: 4-2002 |
"I don't think anything will match the F1" ...This year or the next. I also think the F1 is a bit faster than the Enzo, around the track and in a straight line. Time will tell. | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
New member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 12 Registered: 9-2002 |
The McLaren doesn't handle well on the track? Did it not win the 24 Hours of Le Mans outright in 1995? Did also not win the sportscar championship the same year? Oh I forgot the brakes and the steering feel a bit wooden because Gordon Murray didn't want any servo assist. Have you ever happened to see a McLaren in person, it is about the perfect size for a Sports Car (i.e. not too big). In addition to being the first True Carbon car, it had seating for 3 and kept its weight down to the target of 1,100 Kilos. If you want a good perspective on the McLaren check out the October issue of CAR Magazine with the Enzo on the cover. I too covet the Enzo, but for sheer technical brillance and a true drivers car (i.e. no computers doing the drivers work) I don't think anything will match the F1. | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 273 Registered: 10-2001 |
I dont think the Mclaren is untouchable , esp on a track where downforce is important .Every car mag ( even British ones ) said the car fell unstable at high speed , and when cornering . The Enzo generates much more downforce than the Mc Laren , also it has much better brakes wich is also very important for track use . On a track my guess is that the Enzo would RAPE the F1 .. As for acceleration times they are very close even though the Enzo is heavier ( due to tighter homologation rules ). Ferrari says the Enzo will do 0-100mph in a tad over 6 sec...and 0-124 mph n 9.5 sec. Thats faster than the Mac . The Enzo is also more user friendly if what i have been reading is true . The Mclaren is a great car but then again , at $1M in 1992 , it was a much easier task.. | ||
| bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 959 Registered: 4-2002 |
hi neil welcome to f-chat, you will be educated as well as entertained here.. i dont know enough about the "enzo" yet, but i can assure you that the mclaren f1 is untouchable in every way...nothing comes close... regards, bruce | ||
| Neil A. Campbell (Bimmerlover)
New member Username: Bimmerlover Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2002 |
im sure that ferrari made every effort to make the enzo better than the f1 supercar, but for some reason i feel like (if money werent a major component that i lack) i would still get the mclaren, dont see the performance being too much better. what do u think? btw its my first time posting you guys are great, i just started in financial advising and by the looks of your cars i think i need tips from you all. |