| Author |
Message |
Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Junior Member
Username: Kennedy
Post Number: 144
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 4:27 am: | |
Considering the guy was just learning the track... considering the guy admits to driving at 70%... even in the same car, he may have gone a second or two faster each lap. Since he took several laps with each, the GT may have had a 12 second advantage by just going last. After driving the GT, if he'd gotten back in the street car, he may have matched the time! Who knows?
The times presented were completely useless. If you're not driving at the limit AND if you're not driving the track consistently (proper line and speed), then lap times are useless for comparison purposes.
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Dan (Bobafett)
New member
Username: Bobafett
Post Number: 38
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 4:10 am: | |
Guillaume: brilliant nick (Vancooper) - I like it! ;)
--Dan |
Guillaume (Vancooper)
New member
Username: Vancooper
Post Number: 1
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 20, 2002 - 2:28 am: | |
Allright, time for my first post on this board. I've been lurking on this board for at least a year. I also went to the Seattle Italian concours early september and saw Peter's GT4 and Griesdale's Testarossa! Both very nice F-cars! Dan (bobafett) knows me from bmwm5.com (my handle there is Jet black M5 in Van) where I posted about my father's M5 (now sold) and he can tell how much of a Ferrari fanatic I am.
Anyways, about R&D. I bought that magazine the other judging by the cover picture. What impressed me is the difference in lap time from what is the same car just lighter, slightly more HP and bigger brakes. I mean 16 seconds from the stock Modena to the 360GT is a huge difference!
Another side of this article that I was happy about was that they took Le Circuit Mt-Tremblant as a backdrop and test track. Ferrari de Montr�al holds track days there in the course of the summer. My parents grew up in the town next to the circuit and they said they could hear the Formula 1 cars and Can Am series car very well in the old days! Circuit Mt-Tremblant looks like it finally got a makeover recently and it's poised to hold future high performance race series.
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joe saldana (Ironjoe)
Junior Member
Username: Ironjoe
Post Number: 100
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, October 19, 2002 - 9:07 am: | |
Ruff is reconized by PORSCHE as a SPECIALIST TUNER,I stand behind RUFF with my blood, they are the best in the world...Judge a man,not by what he says ,but,by,what he does,you have to hand it to Porsche,for over half a century they have been holding their own,if Porsche bellied tommorow, Ruff would still have a century of work,evrytime MICHEAL JORDAN quits a sposts team do you think the shoe companys care,no way, they know his reputation and people will keep coming back for more... |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Junior Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 249
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Friday, October 18, 2002 - 3:24 pm: | |
Any comparison stats with magazine staff driving are useless. The 10 seconds he roughly calculated seem high. At VIR the pole time for the 360 Challenge was 1:58 seconds set by Doug Peterson. Auberlen's fastest time at the recent Grand Am race was a mid 1:53 second lap which shows only a 5 second difference.
The gap between a stock 360 and 360 C has to be more than 6 seconds purely from a braking and handling standpoint (not to mention tires).
Unless the cars are being driven by professional racers the lap times auto journalists post are useless, unless we are talking about Auto Motor und Sport (German auto mag that has racers on their test staff).
Regards,
Jon P. Kofod
1995 F355 Challenge #23
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Willis Huang (Willis360)
Member
Username: Willis360
Post Number: 978
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 2:51 pm: | |
I was just reading the article. That "7/10th " comment was odd. I agree that they should have used Cort for each car instead of relegating him to the 360GT. Cort's comments for the street 360 would be most interesting. |
Kevin Butler (Challenge)
New member
Username: Challenge
Post Number: 10
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 2:12 pm: | |
Brian, you're right on. There were a couple of self-serving comments like the "7/10ths" comment that were nothing but ego gratifiaction for the author. Not only *should* they have gotten Cort's opinion instead, they *could* have...since he was at the track and even in the pics R/T took... |
Joseph (Mojo)
New member
Username: Mojo
Post Number: 46
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 9:36 am: | |
Small pistons, lot of cylinders, high rpm's.= Great sound/performance. How about a 16 cyl,7200cc F70? |
Brian Kennedy (Kennedy)
Junior Member
Username: Kennedy
Post Number: 142
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, October 17, 2002 - 8:08 am: | |
Neil, thanks for the heads up on that article. Great superlatives... expresses why I bought a Modena... I've added it to my collection.
On this comment:
"Great article, no hard core performance numbers, except loose lap times that showed the Challenge about 6 seconds faster than the 360 and the GT another 10 seconds faster than the Challenge. Impressive considering the HP for all the cars is very similar. 400-405-435. All that lap time improvement just from weight and handling."
Actually, that's about the lap time improvement you could expect from going from street tires to racing slicks. But those numbers are meaningless... you can't compare someone driving cars at "7/10ths"... because people aren't that well calibrated. If they're not at the limit, no telling where they are. But worse, you can't compare the times of a guy just learning a track... hell, he may have seen those same improvements if he just kept driving the street car.
R&T really blew a great opportunity... why they didn't collect lap times with Cort pushing each of the three to the limit is beyond be. *That* would have been extremely interesting. Even better, take tires out of the equation by re-running the Modena with slicks. That would have been a fantastic comparison. But they preferred to just stick with Sam drooling over the cars... mildly entertaining. Oh well.
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Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member
Username: Mr_0011
Post Number: 246
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 3:52 pm: | |
I'd still like to see a V10, maybe they can take the 4.2L displacement formula and apply it to a ten cylinder. 4.2L is still very small, but big enough for a V10 Ferrari don't you think? |
Marcus Mayeux (Mmayeux73)
Member
Username: Mmayeux73
Post Number: 296
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 11:13 am: | |
As for the Ruf Turbo in the Gumball, I was able to ride in that car after the owner returned from the race w/ the stickers still on it. It is an amazing car and handles awesome! He did race the F-50 in the west coast and won, so it is very fast(208mph)! |
Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member
Username: Mitch_alsup
Post Number: 177
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 9:55 am: | |
4 valves versus 5 valves--the F1 guys tried 5 valves, then went back to 4 valves because they could cant the valves towards the center of the combustion chamber (pyrimidially) and get even more flow out of 4 valves than out of 5 valves. The production guys havent found a way to build a hydraulic tappet for canted valves with <ahem> street-like durability, so 5 valves are the way to go for now--but don't be surprised if production cars drop back to 4 valves. Honda only uses 4 valves on the S2000 engine that out produces the F360 engine on a HP/cc basis.
But, I think when Ferrari uses the 4.2 litre Maser block, they will destroke it down to 3.8 litres, and use the revs to produce on-the-order-of 430 HP. |
Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Junior Member
Username: Dapper
Post Number: 244
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 8:05 am: | |
Agree with Ernesto on RUF. They are 'effectively' a TUNER with manufacturing pretensions, no different to Koenig, Hartge, Alpina et al in what they practice.
Alpina are similar in their outlook in that they believe they are a manufacturer in their own right...bull!
Companies can believe what they like, when it comes down to it its a matter of how they are and will always be perceived by the public. |
Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member
Username: Mr_0011
Post Number: 243
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 08, 2002 - 2:00 am: | |
I'd like to see a 4.2L motor also... but with 5 valves/cylinder instead of the 4 the Maser uses... |
BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 2714
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 9:53 pm: | |
I really doubt that the Challenge cars only make 5 more hp. I know that's what Ferrari claims, but they sure don't sound like it. I haven't had the chance to actually see the cams and pistons to compare them to stock, but I would put some $ on it that there is noticeable difference. If not there, then definitely in the timing, engine management, etc. I still wont believe they run the same pistons and cams until I see it though. At idle they sound too lumpy to be stock, and on occasion when it's cold they tend to stall until they run for a bit. Not characteristics of the street 360 engine, especially considering how advanced the management systems are in keeping them running right. Just my $.02.
Ferrari 3xx cars still use tiny engines, the 3.6L sounds big compared to other Ferrari 3xx engines, but 3.6 is really still tiny. Also, the fact that the car is so much bigger makes it seem that there should be a larger engine regarding displacement in it. Ferrari has strung out the 360's 3.6L pretty much as far as a normal street engine can go and deal with all the legal b.s.
It'll be cool to see them go to the Maserati's block, both from a swap to chains and the added displacement. It will be interesting to see how high it revs, and the power output (when is enough enough etc, maybe they will focus on torque). |
Ernesto (T88power)
Member
Username: T88power
Post Number: 763
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 6:27 pm: | |
As the article said, the 360GT "only" generates 430hp because of the FIA regulations, including the air restrictors on the intake (which look very restrictive).
Ernesto |
neal ezra (95spiderneal)
New member
Username: 95spiderneal
Post Number: 24
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 6:18 pm: | |
i just read this article also and makes me think its really impossible for aftermarket to add much hp over stock. factory can only get extra 5 hp for challenge and 40 for a professional race car means i think it might be best to leave fcar engines stock. other opinions? |
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 239
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 07, 2002 - 3:31 pm: | |
Oh, and by the way, the same issue has an article of Dan Gurney and the Weslake/Eagle at Spa. His description of an a$$-puckering lap around the old Spa course is a must read. |
Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member
Username: Mr_0011
Post Number: 232
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 3:44 pm: | |
I really liked the compairison. Just shows you what Ferrari can do when it comes to changing a car for the track. And it shows you how racy the street 360 is... |
Tenney (Tenney)
Member
Username: Tenney
Post Number: 253
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 10:04 am: | |
Good thing Porsche manufactures Porsche's so Ruf is able to re-manufacture them?
Re: 360 v. Challenge. Obviously the 360C is the more focused car. Although keeping in mind tire differences, would've thought gap might be a bit more than six seconds between the two. |
Ernesto (T88power)
Member
Username: T88power
Post Number: 754
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 9:51 am: | |
Well, LEGALLY they are recognized as a manufacturer, but they are in essence a TUNER. If Porsche stopped making cars, RUF would have no new products or they would have to modify other makes of cars. Bottom line is that they take a PORSCHE and MODIFY it, all legalities aside. In my book, they are a tuner.
Ernesto |
James Dixon (Omnadren250)
Member
Username: Omnadren250
Post Number: 301
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 3:57 am: | |
nah, RUF is not an aftermarket tuner. They are recognized by all countries as a car manufacturer. Now Koenig....thats an aftermarket tuner if I have ever seen one. |
Modified348ts (Modman)
Member
Username: Modman
Post Number: 359
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, October 06, 2002 - 12:53 am: | |
Uh Hmmmm.... |
Ernesto (T88power)
Member
Username: T88power
Post Number: 752
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 11:10 pm: | |
So are comparing aftermarket tuners to factory cars now?
Ernesto |
James Dixon (Omnadren250)
Member
Username: Omnadren250
Post Number: 300
Registered: 7-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 10:22 pm: | |
The RUF turbo is an amazing car for sure. THey have been the car to beat since 1986 when they won the "worlds fastest top speed challenge" beating out factory racing porsches, ferraris and lambos. |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts
Post Number: 2310
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 9:39 pm: | |
Great article, no hard core performance numbers, except loose lap times that showed the Challenge about 6 seconds faster than the 360 and the GT another 10 seconds faster than the Challenge. Impressive considering the HP for all the cars is very similar. 400-405-435. All that lap time improvement just from weight and handling. |
Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Junior Member
Username: Mr_0011
Post Number: 225
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 5:19 pm: | |
It'sa fine issue, I didn't know the Challenge is as fast as it is... :0 |
Neil A. Campbell (Bimmerlover)
New member
Username: Bimmerlover
Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, October 05, 2002 - 11:36 am: | |
its a got a test of the 360, 360 challengem and 360 GT. and even the sl55 too. just wanted to give you'll a heads up. by the way, i know its off topic, what do u guys think of the ruf turbo. it was the consumate performer of all cars in the gumball 3000. they ferraris just couldnt run high speeds for extended periods of time.just a question. |