| Author | Message | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 250 Registered: 4-2002 |
I originally thought carbs would be a problem, but found that they aren't. Mine are currently a little rich at idle/low speed, but, hey, big deal. Runs great. No probs. | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 626 Registered: 5-2002 |
I'm a carbed man.better sound and more you can do tuning it.Injected may give you less headaches .depends on how hands on you are.I have owned both and will stick with the carbs.I know a cold start (especially after sitting) is much easier with the injected. | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 604 Registered: 10-2001 |
I love the sound of the Carbs! It's also a simpler set up for the do-it-yourselfer. I would go with a nice carbed 308, if you can find one that is fibreglass all the better! | ||
| Jason Godsil (Godsil)
Junior Member Username: Godsil Post Number: 154 Registered: 9-2001 |
Bruno, Considering that I always thought that the maintenance was like what the magazine said, you guys make it sound down right affordable. I mean a clutch job on my C5 will run $1500, so at $1000-2000 as quoted on this thread, sounds reasonable. Now which 308 would you guys suggest? I worked on a deal for over two weeks on a '77 but it fell through. I know these have carbs, but man it sounded good. So which would be the better car? | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Junior Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 248 Registered: 4-2002 |
Jason: BTW, you can save TONS by shopping for your own parts, and not let the repair shop get them for you. For example, a 308/328 series clutch can be done for $700 parts and labor if you do your homework on the parts. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 179 Registered: 4-2002 |
As to the single plate versus dual plate systems: A dual (or multiple) plate system can be made smaller in diameter than a single plate system for the same grabbing strength. This allows the engine to rev faster from smaller rotational inertia. The number of plates has a higher actual mass than the single plate clutch and can withstand more abuse before entering the lack-of-friction death zone of clutches. So for racing, these clutches add longevity, acceleration, and abuse tolerance. The downside of the multiplate clutches is that the drive plates have to be connected to the engine fron the outside while the transfer plates have to be coupled to the output shaft from the inside. Due to the required clearances, this ends up with a clutch that rattles as one drives down the road. In addition, the longevity of multiplate clutches can be lower due to the smaller area given to connect each plate to its input or output. Motorcycle engines use 6 to 9 plate clutches and hide this noisy mess inside the gearbox in oil to keep the racket under useful (motorcycle) noise limits. These clutch packs are regularly replaced when the engine and drive splines are toast (before the plates are toast). | ||
| Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Junior Member Username: Jh280774 Post Number: 95 Registered: 9-2001 |
Najib, You are certaintly right! Just wrote the thing with the clutch the wrong way around. Sorry, Will read my posts before sending next time  Anyway the costs are right... Con saluti cordialissimi, Jens Haller | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1476 Registered: 9-2001 |
smile on your face as you drive down the street ------------priceless! | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 622 Registered: 5-2002 |
Well Jason after all this what do you think.EXPENSIVE? | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 520 Registered: 10-2001 |
The cassette water pump for my Europa was $600. I need to buy a Ferrari and save some money! | ||
| Mark (Markg)
Member Username: Markg Post Number: 276 Registered: 2-2001 |
my '82 GTSi (with a over-priced but very good shop doing the work): Clutch assembly and flywheel: $2500 Belts, gears and all engine seals: $5000 rear wheel bearings and pads (all): $600 price of parts is ridiculus: 2 distributor caps and rotors will run you $600+. water pump $250-500; | ||
| Najib Amanullah (Najib)
Junior Member Username: Najib Post Number: 216 Registered: 4-2001 |
Jens If I remember correctly, didn't the 348 move from a double clutch plate system to a single clutch in later years due to greater reliability. I am confused why youchose to go the other way? Just curious. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1487 Registered: 2-2001 |
a clutch change is NOT $12,000-20,000 depending on which Ferrari it could be 1,000 to $4,000. I also doubt the numbers on the transaxle unless its a 1950s car with extremely rare parts | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Junior Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 238 Registered: 4-2002 |
Jens, I'm with you there, especially that last para! | ||
| Jason Godsil (Godsil)
Junior Member Username: Godsil Post Number: 153 Registered: 9-2001 |
Thank you all for your info. I have gotten all the hard driving out of my system so I really just cruise in my cars. I have owned 36 cars in the 10 years that I have had my license and I have never replaced a clutch in any of them. I think that this is working out towards my getting my first Ferrari. It sounds like the horror stories aren't as bad as they sound as long as you start with a good car first. Thanks again. | ||
| Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Junior Member Username: Jh280774 Post Number: 94 Registered: 9-2001 |
Jason, I have got a 348tb which has the same engine and clutch as the Mondial t. The mumbers seem to be realistic if you go for an official Ferrari Dealer (Always wise here in Germany because nobody buys a Ferrari here without a proper Service book with all services done!). I have replaced my clutch through the dealer and they changed it from single to double clutch, peplaced flywheel etc. It "only" costed about 4000 Euro (=$) so that number is definitely wrong in the article. Don�t know about the transaxle rebuild but that number seems to be too much for me as well. The major service costs you about 5000-6000 Euro with cambelt change, the smaller services without cambelt changes are around 4000 Euro. What makes the Ferrari so expensive is to fix all the little things which you want to eliminate to make it a perfect car. Here all dealers hit you hard IMO. All in all the prices at the Ferrari dealers are quite fair though because their service are really very large (See the service manuals, they check nearly everything! At the 20000 km service they even partly built out the engine and cleaned all parts they took off! Don�t know if that is necessary but sounds impressive!) I am also driving a Porsche 911 (993) and first thought that it would be expensive to maintain that car. After buying the 348tb I always smile at the costs for the Services of the 911. They are just too small... So that is just the price to drive a part of italian art. Don�t get fooled: It is expensive to drive and maintain a Ferrari but if you love cars it surely pays off, believe me... Con saluti cordialissimi, Jens Haller P.S. Strange though: Every time I hear about the estimated costs for next service I think it�s just too expensive for a car but when driving it afterwards I just have to smile and think: Damn, it�s surely worth every penny... | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member Username: Benjet Post Number: 816 Registered: 1-2001 |
James, I totally agree with you about the discretionary part. Also I have never (that I can recall) changed my brake fluid in my other (pedestrian) cars, but they say the TR is a high performance vehicle ;) ... The $300 quote for the change of fluids just so you know breaks down as follows: 16 quarts (or liters) of Motor Oil $5-10 per (depending on what blood you want in there and if you are paying retail), one oil filter ~$40, 1 hour of labor $100 (guess to roll the car on ond off the lift) and of course some kind of disposal fee, tax etc.. If you also change brake fluid add a few bucks for that and another 1 hour of time to remove each wheel to bleed/drain. Of course if you do things yourself (which certain is possible - just have to find a bucket to hold 16qts of oil) you can see how that breaks down further. I think my pal with his 60k mile TR - I think this is his 3rd or 4th F Car (308, 328 etc.) and he also boasts that he's never had to change a clutch. -Ben | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 163 Registered: 6-2002 |
Jason - there are a few things to remember when doing mechanical work on a Ferrari. To tighten a screw, turn it clockwise. To loosen it, turn it counterclockwise. To know what to do next, read the manual. I suspect that you did something similar on your U.S. projects. They are no different. I have removed and rebuilt 3 Ferrari engines (2 Dinos and 308 and numerous Porsche and BMWs) and enjoyed ever minute of it. Cars run great. There is nothing magic about working on these cars. Patience and reading glasses (for us old folks) are the only necessary virtues. If you are in a hurry, pay someone to do the work. If you like tinkering and cleaning, do it yourself. I believe we should all take a deep breath and think about the nature of this thread. What are the MAINTENANCE costs? Let's substitute a sailboat for a Ferrari, and answer the question. When one purchases an F-car, they are stepping into a hobby. These are not utility vehicles, but weekend and evening hobbies. I note the $300 for annual brake fluid flushing. Don't know when the last time I flushed the brake fluid on the Suburban. Clutch - $1,500 to $3,000. How often? If I purposely sailed in big seas during gales, I would likely break riggings more often. But if I sailed on sunny days on calm seas, my costs would not be as great. In this case, maintenance costs are a function of the skipper's desire (choice). Such is the case for the Ferrari. I have owned 3 F-Cars for over 20 years, and have never needed to replace a clutch. Now before you roll your eyes back and mutter, "What a wimp," this is my choice. I don't like spending money needlessly. I like the engineering and mechanical aspects of the car. I like the aesthetics. I don't have to drive them hard or fast to enjoy these aspects. Thus, maintenance is, perhaps, the wrong word. Discretionary costs might be a better choice. My thoughts. Jim S. | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 601 Registered: 10-2001 |
Jason, I am in the same boat as you. I'm not a professional mechanic by any means but I am taking a hands on approach to Ferrari ownership. I'm doing a restoration project on a Dino GT4. Ferrari engines are no more complicated than any other engine, you just need to do it right. Don't cheap out. Doing it yourself gives you a great deal of satisfaction and brings you closer with your car. You'll be able to tell when something is wrong right away! Take the plunge and enjoy! | ||
| DONALD GRIESDALE (Griesdale)
Junior Member Username: Griesdale Post Number: 51 Registered: 11-2001 |
Jason, it was nice to see you and your wife in Seattle on Sept 1, 2002!! For my 91 TR I budget about $ 1000.00 CDN ( $600.00 US) for annual service each summer and am putting aside about $6000.00 for the eventual 30K service. My car has 23,000 miles on it now and this service will be done in about 3 years. I plan to have this done by a non-dealer shop here in North Vancouver (Prancing Horse Automotive). Buy the best car you can afford with all records and recent service and enjoy!! With careful driving you may never need a clutch or transaxel rebuild. Until this year I admit that I was storing a " garage queen" but that trip to Seattle in the wind and rain was exilharating and now I drive the TR often to work and on chores on weekends. Someone once said that: "What are saving the car for???--The next owner??? I agree with this idea and now drive the car as much as possible. Best regards, Don. | ||
| Jason Godsil (Godsil)
Junior Member Username: Godsil Post Number: 152 Registered: 9-2001 |
I have done alot of mechanic work myself on american cars such as rebuilding a 2000 Dakota V8 and a '94 Trans Am LT1. Is the Ferrari engines any more complicated? I am by no means a pro, but will I be able to do the maintenance work myself? I would like to drive my future Ferrari 10-15,000 miles a year. Will this be a problem? Thanks for all the info guys, I don't think it will be as bad as what I have heard. | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member Username: Benjet Post Number: 815 Registered: 1-2001 |
Bruce I can have my clutch done locally for ~$1k, the non-OEM rebuild even comes with a 5 year warranty, go figure. TR clutches can/should be done in car, unless your engine is already out. TR maint costs: yearly oil/brake fluid change ~$300 every other year ADD to that coolant (plus something else as needed = tires, brake pads etc.) + ~$200-1k Engine out service ~$5k-10k every 5-8 years or 30-50k miles, depending on who you ask, could even be less if you do it yourself (<$2k). There should NOT be a 15k on a TR, the valves do not need that much adjustment. Clutch as needed ~$1k to apparently $4k OUCH (depends on how you drive it could be 25k or 50k miles). I have 2 friends that other than their 30k maint, have only spent ~$500/yr on the car (with 50k and 60k on the clocks respectively). I have in 2 years spent ~$200 (and gone 5k), but I'm due for an oil change (and pads). That $200 doesn't include the tires which were just old and stiff ($1k). -Ben | ||
| William Henderson (Billh)
New member Username: Billh Post Number: 23 Registered: 5-2002 |
the engine doesnt have to come out on either eight series car or a TR to change the clutch. on the TR, the exhaust silencer has to be removed and the bellhousing/transfer gear case slides off the back exposing the clutch. also the throw-out bearing and seals would be replaced. this sits inside this bell housing. | ||
| martin J weiner,M.D. (Mw360)
Member Username: Mw360 Post Number: 596 Registered: 5-2001 |
Bruce, Two blackjacks is not a bad deal. | ||
| william speer (Wspeer)
New member Username: Wspeer Post Number: 36 Registered: 8-2002 |
i guess the cost differential depends on service location. the place in "gone in 60 secs" may make that worth while. just kidding. | ||
| bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 995 Registered: 4-2002 |
william, included was 2 bjs if you wanted them jason, before the f-cars i had vettes from a calloway to zr1s, loved them... | ||
| william speer (Wspeer)
New member Username: Wspeer Post Number: 34 Registered: 8-2002 |
on second thought, i am not sure that they dropped the engine to do the clutch. i had it replaced at the same time i upgraded the muffler and i think it was done with the engine in the car. i have had work done that required removing the engine and i might be confusing the two. i'll check with my mechanic and verify if the engine was dropped or not. | ||
| william speer (Wspeer)
New member Username: Wspeer Post Number: 33 Registered: 8-2002 |
it did on mine. the engine rests on a space frame and simply drops from the car. granted there is some labor involved, but it is not a difficult thing to do. | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 600 Registered: 10-2001 |
Doesn't the engine have to be dropped to do a clutch job on a TR? | ||
| william speer (Wspeer)
New member Username: Wspeer Post Number: 32 Registered: 8-2002 |
i had the clutch replaced about a year ago on my 87 tr and it cost aroun $2200 parts and labor. there were difficulties in locating a clutch, but i can't imagine that the costs have gone up that much. what is included in the $3-4K price you were given? | ||
| Jason Godsil (Godsil)
Junior Member Username: Godsil Post Number: 151 Registered: 9-2001 |
I really like the 512TR also. That is my favorite TR. Never was a real fan of the 512M though. What cars do you have Bruce? I see you have a bunch listed on your info page. | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 599 Registered: 10-2001 |
It's a US spec car, shouldn't be too hard. Coming into Canada is a breeze if it is 15 years or older. Not sure about going the other way. | ||
| bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 994 Registered: 4-2002 |
yea jason, you have to keep an eye on it, but its worth it, love my tr, maybe next year, the 512 tr, my favorite f-car,,keep that a secret too, especially from the wifey,,,, bruce | ||
| Jason Godsil (Godsil)
Junior Member Username: Godsil Post Number: 150 Registered: 9-2001 |
I have been warned about the TR from a guy I know that runs a Ferrari dealer shop. Your secret is safe here. | ||
| bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 993 Registered: 4-2002 |
$3- 4k for a cluth job on a tr...........dont tell my wife,,,, | ||
| mike 308 (Concorde)
New member Username: Concorde Post Number: 38 Registered: 8-2002 |
Clutch job on a 308/QV is $1000-$1500 including parts. | ||
| Jason Godsil (Godsil)
Junior Member Username: Godsil Post Number: 149 Registered: 9-2001 |
Yeah with the exchange rate that would be a good deal but wouldn't someone have to put all the EPA stuff on before bring it in to the US? I would probably be looking at the 308-328 style. Other than the the 512TR and 355-newer models I like the 308-328 style the best. | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 596 Registered: 10-2001 |
For under $50K you can get a really nice 308, that you can maintain (most stuff) on your own. Again, it's worth repeating, buy the best car in your price range and get it checked out first by an independent mechanic. There is a 308 in Toronto that has everything done, all new suspension, rebuilt engine, new clutch all hoses and has barely been driven. The owner is getting married, asking around $50K Canadian, which is a bargain for Americans. | ||
| bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 991 Registered: 4-2002 |
it all depends what model you drive,how you drive it, how anal are you about keeping up on minor things and watching all fluids, and if its a 6,8,or 12 cyl car... they say the cheapest maintainance both major on minor are on the 328 series, i own a t.r and we wont talk about it.. hope it helps a little and im sure i will get enemies with this post... bruce | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2316 Registered: 12-2000 |
Those numbers are off. I think a rebuild is in the $10-20k range, the transaxle is still high at $10-12k, but I think a clutch would only be a few thousand. | ||
| Jason Godsil (Godsil)
Junior Member Username: Godsil Post Number: 148 Registered: 9-2001 |
I have come close to being a Ferrari owner a few times and the only thing that has kept me from taking the plunge is the rumors of the maintenance costs. I have been ready lately again to look for a Ferrari and then I read the article in Forza Magazine on the buyers guide to the Mondial. The specs on the maintenance is as follows; Routine repairs and fluid changes $500-1000 (sounds fair) Major service every 15,000 miles without cam belts $3500-4200 (high but you can see it coming) Engine rebuild $4500-6000 (sounds fair here) Transaxle rebuild $25,000-35,000 (is this right? an engine rebuild is only a 1/5th what a transaxle costs and roughly what you paid for the car) Clutch replacement $12,000-20,000 (is this right too? Seems like they put the coma in the wrong place) I am not trying to whine here I was just alittle taken off guard as to why the last too items were so expensive. So when you need a $20,000 Clutch or a $35,000 transaxle do you just push the car into the back yard and go buy another car, maybe in your second color choice? Can someone shed some light on this? Can you tell me what is a good choice of Ferrari is under $50,000 as far as maintenance goes. Thanks everyone. |