| Author | Message | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 582 Registered: 12-2001 |
The rear head on my 79 has the crank case vent pipe plumbed into the cover. The euro has it plumed into an adapter that mounts where my smog pump drive sticks out (through a lip seal). So, the valve cover is different. The cam is different and the aluminum chunk below the rear cam on the head has studs for the adapter to mount. The snout on my cam (around 1-1/2 long is threaded yes, but the euro doesnt have this snout to begin with. I guess the point I was trying to make is, they dont interchange without modification to the US head. Not to mention they dont perform so why bother. Elgin is regrinding a set right now for someone I know. He is welding them for obvious reasons. Another company is Web cams. They do the same thing. I wouldnt bother with billet cams unless the cost was within reason. I agree the lift figures on the early US cams may be the same as the Euros but valve timing is probably not. Another thing to consider is the distributor curve. The Euros had a better advance curve and the single distributor setup. | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 351 Registered: 4-2001 |
Paul, I may be smoaking crack, but if I remember right the heads are the same... the difference is in the side of the cam. the Euro cam end is not tapped, where the US version was, to provide drive for the smog air pump. To use a set of Euro cams, you would simply use the standard Euro side cover and seal in place of the US version smog drive. If I remember right the cams in my 77 are 8.375 mm lift on the exhaust, and 9 mm lift on the intake, which should be the same as the euro... If memory serves me correctly, in 78 they went to 8.375 mm lift on the intake and exhaust. So just going to an earlier cam set on the intake side will help but won't provide the kick your looking for to get to 300hp. Something more like 8.5 to 8.75 mm on the exhaust side and around 9.2 to 9.37 mm on the intake side combined with your juicy choice of pistons and head porting will get you closer to what your looking for... When talking with Dema Elgin about having my cams reground, he sugested billet blanks would be a better way to start if you could find them... The one problem with getting 308 cams reground is they need to be welded to build up the lobe area and then restraightened before regrinding. You might call nicks forza ferrari, I think they are doing cams now, they could turn a new set or better yet see if they would sell you the billet blanks and then have Dema Elgin grind them to your taste... He has been doing cams for a long time. I think superformance in the UK also has regrinds in stock. As far as exhaust, my car is a 77 so it never had cats, I replaced the worn out stock muffler with a Tubi compitition which has the standard 2BOD rating... 2 blocks of death... which means every small animal, in a two city block radius of the car is forced into submission by its obtrusive wail, as my wife puts it. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2081 Registered: 12-2000 |
Bret: "...What exhaust do you guys think gives the most F1 like wail on the 8 cylinder cars?" My Borla (ask David Schirmer, he's heard it). Its one bitchin sound  | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 570 Registered: 12-2001 |
The euros sound different and make more power. No smog and non-smog cams. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 569 Registered: 12-2001 |
The euro cams dont have seal provisions on the rear bank exhaust cam. The valve cover is different so is the head on the euros. I could fabricate/modify my head and cover or buy a euro cover but its not worth the trouble. Regrinds cost less than stock euro cams and they fit. | ||
| Al Johnson (Bigal)
Junior Member Username: Bigal Post Number: 79 Registered: 3-2002 |
Might be my imagination but Euro 308s seem to sound different than US versions. | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 349 Registered: 4-2001 |
Paul, the Euro cams should fit your car just fine... | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 567 Registered: 12-2001 |
The problem with factory cams is they suck. It depends on the year and model to a certian extent. The first Euro 308's had the best out of the bunch but still could use more lift and duration and better valve timing. My car for example has the crapiest cams ferrari ever put in a 308, (79). Since I have increased my compression ratio, cam options are alot greater than for a stock engine. You can get 300HP from a carb 308 with cams, pistons and minor port cleanup. If I were to put in an early set of US cams, I would see a gain and the euro's just wont fit so thats not an option. Considering the cost of used cams over regrinds to your own spec, it just doesnt make sense to go the factory route. You can order a set of performance grind cams from elgin rather than selecting your own figures, pop them in an go. Cams will do more for your car than any muffler or ignition system will. BretM is having his QV cams done. I would like to know the profile he went with compared to stock. | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Junior Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 88 Registered: 8-2002 |
What's wrong with factory cams? | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Junior Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 87 Registered: 8-2002 |
. | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Junior Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 86 Registered: 8-2002 |
Paul, the QV is also a single inlet into the muffler (single cat). I think there's little benefit changing over the entire muffler system if you're willing to just replace the cat with a test pipe (or Stebro "euro resonator" like I did). That's a low cost $289 change you can feel (car revs up more quickly) and hear. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 563 Registered: 12-2001 |
I think the package is pretty much optimized from the factory. Thats the problem with spending loads on exhaust in particular. Once the cats are removed and maybe toss the thermal reactor muffler in favor of a non-cat one, you really cant gain significant power with a stock engine. They come with full length headers and a very short exhaust system with a small displacement engine. It doesnt need more breathing. Also, the ignition upgrade will improve response and probably fuel economy, reduce plug fouling but my stock single distributor with points supplies enough spark to turn to 8000rpm with a high compression engine. I see no need for direct ignition. cost of distributor caps isnt a good enough reason for me to add all this hardware for little gain (show me dyno numbers)and no increase in value. Possibly a decrease in value of the car if anything. If I went to look at a 308 and found all this hokey pokey wiring with a row of coil packs and krankvents attatched, I would pass on buying that one. The 328 exhaust has a single inlet into the muffler rather than 2 on a carbed 308. How many inlets does a a QV have? That should tell you. I would spend $700US to get my cams reground to get a nice gain in all around power and sound rather than a tubi or a stebro for example. Without yanking the engine, cams will give the best bang for the buck rahter than ignition or exhaust. Cams wont screw the resale either if emissions inst an issue. Even the euro cams need attention - alot, so change them first. | ||
| stu cordova (Balataboy)
Member Username: Balataboy Post Number: 253 Registered: 4-2001 |
Craig - don't know if it will fit. Guys? Funny, but I did the same as a lot of you did - installed Tubi, K&N and direct-fire all at the same time (that was a healthy check!) and I gotta say - with some sadness - that I didn't really notice much of a difference in performance at all! I think it's a bit more responsive at high rpm's but as far as overall difference - not worth the money I paid - IMHO. Any thoughts? | ||
| DHutchison (Hutch308)
Junior Member Username: Hutch308 Post Number: 96 Registered: 1-2002 |
Mark - YES! I think that the direct-fire igniton system made a huge improvement in the driveability, and performance. The engine likes to rev higher and get the revs up quicker than with the distributors. If you're in the area, I'll let you drive my 308 so you could see for yourself. Forgot to mention, but I also have a K&N. | ||
| Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
Member Username: Craigfl Post Number: 466 Registered: 1-2001 |
Stu, Is it possible that your Euro QV Tubi will fit my 328 Euro? I have the stock exhaust system. Maybe we can work out a trade? | ||
| Mark (Markg)
Member Username: Markg Post Number: 283 Registered: 2-2001 |
hutch - my '82 also has Krank Vent and K&N, Cat pipes, am thinking of direct fire - was it a big improvement (filter and krank vent are minimal)? | ||
| DHutchison (Hutch308)
Junior Member Username: Hutch308 Post Number: 95 Registered: 1-2002 |
I settled for a TUBI last December, after searching for a BORLA. It sounds better than the stock exhaust did on my '82 2 valve injected 308. As for performance, I can't say. I installed a direct-fire ignition system (electromotive), and Krank Vent breathers (NicksForzaFerrari.com) and the TUBI all at the same time. The combo really woke up my 308. - Hutch Hi Dr. Barry W!! | ||
| Barry Wolinsky (308gtb)
Member Username: 308gtb Post Number: 304 Registered: 2-2002 |
My 1976 GTB (non-catalyst) had a Euro ANSA muffler installed 16 years ago. The sound is louder than the stock muffler, but not as loud as the Tubi. It's a little tinny at start-up, but develops a nice throaty sound when the muffler warms up. It has held up nicely over the years with only some paint blistering on the center portion of the muffler. The tips look nice with no signs of rusting. http://www.ansaautomotive.com/index.html Barry | ||
| Mike Charness (Mcharness)
Junior Member Username: Mcharness Post Number: 85 Registered: 8-2002 |
Stebro is at www.stebro.net With a 308/QV, since most of your exhaust is "hidden" there's no reason to pay twice the price to get the Tubi's highly polished stainless. Stebro's setup is similar stainless, just not a mirror finish. I put on a Stebro "euro resonator" (test pipe) on an otherwise stock exhaust and that alone made a BIG difference in sound. If you've got good speakers and a subwoofer on your computer, you can hear it at www.mlcpartners.com/ferrari/ | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2732 Registered: 2-2001 |
The bastards at Borla told me the same thing months ago. I didn't want to get an exhaust yet, but I would have since I heard they were stopping production. There has to be at least half a dozen 308 owners that would buy from them if they made a couple up, I mean come on. What exhaust do you guys think gives the most F1 like wail on the 8 cylinder cars? | ||
| stu cordova (Balataboy)
Member Username: Balataboy Post Number: 252 Registered: 4-2001 |
I know I'm in the minortiy here (I've posted this before) but I installed a Tubi in my 85 QV and it's quite frankly it's WAY too loud for MY tastes! I miss my stock system, (Euro cat-less) but unfortunately someone tossed it in the dumpster at work - thinking it was junk. Oh well... Good luck Mojo - if you can, try and find a 308 with a Tubi first and ride in it to make sure it's really what you want! | ||
| Craig Dewey (Craigfl)
Member Username: Craigfl Post Number: 465 Registered: 1-2001 |
I talked with Borla about getting an exhaust system for my car but they told me exactly what you said -- not enough sales. I tried to convince them that now may be the opportunity since a lot of the cars are in the hands of drivers and they said they would "consult their marketing experts" -- read "no". I then asked them if they would sell me the technical build information and/or tooling but they still were not interested... I don't think I have ever seen a used Borla for sale for my car so I'll have to settle for something different. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 556 Registered: 12-2001 |
I thought borla dropped the 308 system due to lack of interest or sales. I think you would have to settle for a used borla now. | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 639 Registered: 2-2001 |
I have a borla on my 308qv. The sound is great and it feels like it revs more freely. I have let people drive it while I was in another car in it sounds even better outside of the car. If you really want a sound treat take it under an overpass and wind it out. It will without a dought put a huge grin on your face. | ||
| Greg Owens (Owens84qv)
Member Username: Owens84qv Post Number: 545 Registered: 10-2001 |
There is also a British company out there called Quicksilver that advertises "sport" and stock exhaust systems for the 308. Thier stock exhaust system claims an exact duplication of shape and welds as the original 308 exhaust system. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 258 Registered: 4-2002 |
Asking which is the best exhaust is a bit like asking which is better: blonde/brunette/redhead. They sound different, so it's a matter of price .vs. sound preference. I suspect that all are freeflowing enough that horsepower differences are minimal between them. I think there are some differences as to warranty, etc. Tubi and some others are made from some real high class stainless, so in 100 years your car will be a rusty lump in your yard with some pretty shiny pipes sticking out. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 552 Registered: 12-2001 |
Stebro is canadian and can be found advertising in any forza magazine. They even have the price list but I think its in US funds. | ||
| John Bicsak (Funshipone)
Junior Member Username: Funshipone Post Number: 136 Registered: 1-2002 |
Where can you find out about this brand called Stebro, and are they available for 308 QV. What is cost. | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 635 Registered: 5-2002 |
I have a stebro muffler and test pipes coming.Will post results as soon as I get em and get em on.It is stainless and free flow at a fraction of a tubi price.And it bolts on as original.replace whatever piece u choose. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 551 Registered: 12-2001 |
For $2500, (or whatever the tubi costs) I could repaint my car. I would buy a different brand like stebro. | ||
| Andr� Ferreira da Costa (Oporto328)
New member Username: Oporto328 Post Number: 13 Registered: 9-2002 |
I've bought my stainless system at www.stainless-exhsust.com for my 328. It's an english manufactor. I'm very pleased with the result. It's a sport system with no cats and with stainless manifolds. It's much louder. The way I like it. And it's not very expensive. Don't know if they make US version. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 452 Registered: 1-2002 |
I have a Tubi on our 328. Idle sound is about the same volume, but just a little bit deeper tone. As you wind it up, it REALLY snarls a lot more than stock, and is somewhat louder from the driver's seat. However, from outside the car/down the street, the difference is remarkable--louder, more turbine-like, more Ferrari like!! It really sounds incredible from the outside--a lot like a Eurp cat-less version with the 2 header pipes leading into the muffler instead of the one pipe after the cat. Performance? Not much seat-of-pants difference until you get above 6,000 RPM; then, it has a bit more punch & reached redline much faster? Cost? Talk to Tino here on FerrariChat. I bought it from him. | ||
| MYSTERY (Giallo)
New member Username: Giallo Post Number: 1 Registered: 10-2002 |
I have a tubi on my carburetted 308 and it sounds excellent. It also lets it rev quicker and definitely lowers under-hood temps. Buy a tubi...anything else is an excuse. | ||
| Joseph (Mojo)
New member Username: Mojo Post Number: 36 Registered: 9-2002 |
Could anyone who has aftermarket exhaust on a 308 tell me the differance in sound volume,sound pitch,performance and cost? Thanks Mojo |