| Author | Message | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 275 Registered: 3-2002 |
As long as they get lighter... | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 808 Registered: 2-2001 |
Dry Weight of Ferrari cars from www.ferrari.com 328 1,263kg 348 1,393kg 355 1,350kg 360 1,290kg 550 1,690kg 512 1,473kg Which one was called the pasta again? I think Ferrari is headed in the right direction from the bloated cars of the 80's - especially considering the added safety requirements and spacious cabins of today's cars. Ernesto | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 274 Registered: 3-2002 |
Ferrari's have always been true pasta rockets anyway.  | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1402 Registered: 9-2001 |
If the Modena gets any fatter they will have to rename it the Pasta . | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 274 Registered: 4-2002 |
Chuck, I got here first, you followed me. ;) | ||
| Chuck Babel (Chuck_98_rt10)
Junior Member Username: Chuck_98_rt10 Post Number: 86 Registered: 5-2002 |
Sumfast, now you're over here?! I'm cursed man!!! LOL If the rules allowed it, they'd all be going with bigger displacement. | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 272 Registered: 4-2002 |
I never said I was a good teacher.  I do apologies to Brett, I was a little harsh with my response. | ||
| martin J weiner,M.D. (Mw360)
Member Username: Mw360 Post Number: 608 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mitchell, The key to being a good teacher is to not denigrate your students. | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 263 Registered: 4-2002 |
Brett, Nooooo, YOU are wrong. You might want to brush up on basic physics. Weight would have nothing (*zero*) to do with a cars top speed other than a small amount of friction coming from more area of the tire touching the ground due to more displacement of air in the tire. Top speed is determined by (ONLY) Drag Co Surface area Power Gearing (*tire size etc*) Weight does not come into play at all. The reason pro Autocross cars do not have more weight? Because weight DOES effect acceleration / braking / handling etc. Make sure you know what you are talking about before you say you do. If you have any questions as to why weight does not effect top speed I can spend a little more time on this. Have a good one | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 2994 Registered: 5-2001 |
HArd to imagine that Ferrari would go with something that is a potential for dealers to lose money in the service department. After their debacle effort to stop gray market imports by lying to DOT/EPA last year, to protect their dealers, I would say they will more likely increase the service intervals than reduce them.- Of course only after 3 years when the warranty is over! | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 287 Registered: 4-2002 |
"If there were no replacement for displacement, why don't we see 15 litre racers" Because the 'rules' don't allow it! | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 269 Registered: 3-2002 |
how about a 4.2L modena that's lighter than the 360 then? :D sounds good to me. | ||
| Brett Summerer (2tall)
New member Username: 2tall Post Number: 15 Registered: 7-2002 |
Justsum; uh, no. Lighter car = quicker accel, better handling AND higer top end. If what you were saying were true, then professional autocross cars would have radios and air conditioning, since they aren't at top speed the majority of the time. | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 260 Registered: 4-2002 |
Except for top speed, in which weight has precious little to do with the equation. A 400lb car with 50hp will tear up any street car I can think of up until about 60mph where it will run out of steam as it hits the aro-wall | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
New member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 30 Registered: 9-2002 |
Luca di was once quoted saying 'I'll take a 10% reduction in weight any day over a 10% increase in power' - for good reason. Point in case: 60's muscle cars. 700bhp is no good if you've got 5000 lbs to lug. As for a lightened 360 - I wonder how they will allocate such a car. --Dan | ||
| Chris Coleman (Dmc4cc)
New member Username: Dmc4cc Post Number: 46 Registered: 2-2001 |
Back to the Hp/Litre argument. Its horsepower that makes you faster, not torque. Torque is factored into HP measurement, so in some ways its in there. But gearing depends a lot on acceleration too. A high geared car needs a lot of torque to scoot, a low geared car won't. And you think F1 cars have a lot of torque, but they move!!! ALso, higher hp/ltre generally translates into a faster car. If there were no replacement for displacement, why don't we see 15 litre racers? Generally lighter cars handle better, have better acceleration, and brake quicker, so you want maximum displacement with maximum hp/ltre with the lowest weight. But I'd say lower weight is more important than increasing displacement. | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 267 Registered: 3-2002 |
I'm all for lightened Ferraris. | ||
| Tino (Bboxer)
Junior Member Username: Bboxer Post Number: 155 Registered: 8-2001 |
Manu's on to something.I was told the same thing a few months ago and then heard a hint of a confirmation at the factory last month: A lightened 360. | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 485 Registered: 2-2002 |
I can't believe I haven't posted this yet (completely slipped my mind) - A source close to the factory (works in Maranello) said that he had seen Ferrari begin work on a limited edition lightened, more powerful Ferrari 360M. That's about as much as he knows - it'll be somewhere between a normal 360 and a 360C but it's a ROAD car - More power (not a whole lot) but apparently lots of interior trim is going to be chucked away to reduce weight. The emphasis will be on making it dynamically sharper - it's not a replacement but it is a limited Edition - a sort of Ferrari 360 GTO...... I've said this before loads of times but it may be well given a name which honours the Red Baron himself Michael Schumacher. Believe THAT if you will....... Interesting stuff! | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 266 Registered: 3-2002 |
Here is some more info u all know... http://www.sportscartesting.com/news/ferrari/id470/pg2136 | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2374 Registered: 12-2000 |
No one has mentioned yet that power to weight is about the best ratio for quick performance predictability? | ||
| Scott A. B. Collins (Scott)
Junior Member Username: Scott Post Number: 75 Registered: 6-2001 |
OK--I guess the news is that now the rollbar is available in the US (I saw a car with one installed with a US delivery printout on it). As with everything Ferrari, this could be a special customer--don't know for sure. The 360 front looked a bit like a 360GT front end (larger air intakes, filled in center section) except that both the air intakes and the center section had narrow horizontal slits in them. I saw a 360GT as well, and overall the proportions of this "other" front clip were slightly trimmer. It is, of course, quite possible that they were testing a different front for either a Challenge or GT car--who knows. Wish I had had a few days, and a lawn chair, to have camped out with my camera. Have to wait for the magazines, I guess, to get the scoop. | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 960 Registered: 8-2001 |
Scott, can you describe what the new nose looked like on the 360 you saw? | ||
| Viken Bedrossian (Vikenb)
Junior Member Username: Vikenb Post Number: 199 Registered: 5-2001 |
>> BTW, roll bar has always been an option on 360's. << Yes, that and the 4-point harness. However, neither is available for North American cars delivered by FNA. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
New member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 23 Registered: 9-2002 |
So no discussion about the 360 changes, then? --Dan | ||
| Scott A. B. Collins (Scott)
Junior Member Username: Scott Post Number: 74 Registered: 6-2001 |
Ernesto--no pictures inside the factory--very forbidden. I got some Enzo pictures outside the factory (I was jogging and one went buy) but they aren't of very good quality. Unfortunately, the damn digitial camera wouldn't turn on quick enough to get pictures of the several "styling exercises" I saw. Sorry about the roll bar--our tour guide said it was a new option. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 795 Registered: 2-2001 |
Scott, did you take any photos of the factory or Enzos? Any other rumors? Ernesto BTW, roll bar has always been an option on 360's. | ||
| Scott A. B. Collins (Scott)
Junior Member Username: Scott Post Number: 73 Registered: 6-2001 |
Sorry to be late to the party--just got back from Italy and a factory tour. 2003 Modenas are on the line with the standard engine. Saw the new Enzo assembly line (as well as numerous Enzos). The entire group tried to pry Modena development details--no luck. Did see a 360 with a very different front end clip--very roughly finished as well. Not a challenge or the other 360 racing variants--perhaps they will change the styling slightly for 2004? Also--a roll bar is now optional--for the coupe. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 711 Registered: 6-2001 |
Ross: I've got one ordered due in March, if they stop producing the 360s, I guess I'll end up with a 420? We'll see. Art | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
New member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 15 Registered: 9-2002 |
Tim, That was supposed to be a 'didn't think' - as in I didn't know that anyone was allowed to 'trade-up.' I do believe that their racing technology will pass down. Personally I would much rather have a high-revving 'racier' engine than the equivalent turbo unit (which is one of the driving reasons to avoid the 996TT, but then I could go on about what an awful car it is for a long time). Regardless, that's just my opinion. I wonder if anyone across the pond might have updated information regarding the successor. It's my understanding that the 456 (460?) replacement will arrive before the 360 (380?) replacement. --Dan | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1485 Registered: 6-2001 |
Dan, i guess the dealer, who i know fairly well, lied to me. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
New member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 11 Registered: 9-2002 |
Tim: I don't think anyone could trade an F40 in for an F50. On top of that, Ferrari has been making reliable racing engines for some time now (look at F1) - and some of that technology will naturally pass down. Also, the argument about torque is only half true. If that were the case, a stripped out dodge diesel truck should be able to outrun a 360 ;) --Dan | ||
| Chuck Babel (Chuck_98_rt10)
Junior Member Username: Chuck_98_rt10 Post Number: 77 Registered: 5-2002 |
Rotary??? Designed by a guy that didn't even know how to drive. If they were so great there'd be a lot more of them. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1474 Registered: 6-2001 |
Ernesto, i see what you mean, it is more impressive for a small engine to make that much horespower than a big one. The only thing is its MUCH more likely that the smaller engine is being stressed alot more to make that sort of hp. Its also likely that the small engine will have to rev high to make that sort of power, and its also likely that (unless turboed) it wont have alot torque. all of this makes for a less reliable engine. also, its torque that makes a car fast. Thats why i dont see whypeople here would want an engine that revs past 10,000rpms. Sure it would sound cool, but do you really want to have to rev your engine up that high to have fun? it would be expensive to biuld that engine and expensive to maintain. Thats one of the reasons people whjo traded F40's in for F50's wanted there F40's back- because the F50 had to be revved way up into its powerband to be fast while the F40 (with a much smaller, turbocharged engine) had alot of low end grunt. | ||
| Gene Agatep (Gagatep)
New member Username: Gagatep Post Number: 34 Registered: 8-2002 |
People, People... horspepower per liter.... Ricerocket Mazda RX-7 Rotary 1.3 liter ~ 200 hp with the turbos 160 hp without A whole lot less moving parts. A whole lot less weight. Fuel Economy is just as bad as an F. Great Bang for the Buck. Who needs larger displacement. There's power to be had in various types of innovations. IMHO I don't think increasing displacement is the way to go. | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 479 Registered: 2-2002 |
Chuck - not true about aftermarket mods being illegal in the UK- but compare the USA to UK and you'd think so. IMO the 550 is one of the best cars of all time but in stock guise it sounds like a silenced Turbine..... Long live aftermaket! Back to the thread though and the V10 in Schumis F1 sounds pretty hot!! | ||
| Chuck Babel (Chuck_98_rt10)
Junior Member Username: Chuck_98_rt10 Post Number: 76 Registered: 5-2002 |
Manu, a 550 doesn't sound good? At least we have aftermarket over here. I've heard in Europe it's illegal to modify a car at all. | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 477 Registered: 2-2002 |
Chuck - I used to agree with you mate -now I don't - have a listen to a stock 550/456. | ||
| Chuck Babel (Chuck_98_rt10)
Junior Member Username: Chuck_98_rt10 Post Number: 75 Registered: 5-2002 |
Brett, I'm sure Ferrari could master a great sounding V10. The 03 Viper sounds very good, took Dodge 10 years to do it. Ferrari probably wouldn't release a motor without it passing the "Ferrari Sound Test" first. | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 257 Registered: 4-2002 |
but, could F dealers survive without timing belt change services? | ||
| Manu Sachdeva (Manu)
Member Username: Manu Post Number: 474 Registered: 2-2002 |
Guys - I don't think this is going to happen..... not UNTIL the 456GT and 575M are replaced because I think Ferrari will just be canniblising sales of their V12 models. With such a potent V8 model, the V12s will just not sell anymore..... | ||
| Brett Summerer (2tall)
New member Username: 2tall Post Number: 13 Registered: 7-2002 |
I would caution against the V10 for a Ferrari. It's sound quality is the biggest (only?) negative part of the Dodge Viper-owner experience. 360s sound to sweet to goof up. | ||
| Chuck Babel (Chuck_98_rt10)
Junior Member Username: Chuck_98_rt10 Post Number: 74 Registered: 5-2002 |
So Racer, when is Geriatric Motors gonna build a big CID motor? Sorry, just a friendly jab to a Vette owner. Getting back on track, just think how awesome a Ferrari would sound with more cubes? | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 265 Registered: 3-2002 |
Chuck, most of them are leaning towards that anyway. There is simply no replacement for displacment. | ||
| Chuck Babel (Chuck_98_rt10)
Junior Member Username: Chuck_98_rt10 Post Number: 73 Registered: 5-2002 |
HP/Litre impressed? Maybe Ernesto, I'm waiting at the finish line all night long for guys to catch up to me and say "Ok you won, but I have more HP per litre." I'd bet if Europe wasn't so restrictive with engine size Ferrari, Porsche, BMW would all be offering big CID blocks. BTW Ernie, awesome pic of your Modena. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2735 Registered: 2-2001 |
Everyone seems enamored with the V10, which has been "proven" to be best for a 3.0L engine, but remember that they made it F1 rule to use a 10 cylinder when some of the companies started getting into extensive testing of switching to 12s again. Plus, a 10 cylinder is just 2 more pistons, con rods, bearings, bushings, valves, etc to break IMO, and the engine is going to be longer for the most part. Theoretically there may be some benefits to it, but they would have to be weighed against the drawbacks IMO before making it a realistic engine choice for Ferrari. | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 263 Registered: 3-2002 |
Those are something eh? It just goes to show you that their are still some alternatives when it comes to performance cars... save the electric stuff for econoboxes... | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 377 Registered: 11-2001 |
Racer 001, That is an amazing company. Now I know this will get me some flack, but I would be will you get rid of the heads on my car in place of those. Not only for the power gain, lower emissions, and fuel economy, but NO MORE TIMING BELT CHANGES!!!!!!!!!! | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 376 Registered: 11-2001 |
Ditch the V8 for a V10 already!!!!!!!!!! For crying out loud hasn't the domination of F1 proven that a V10 in the way to go? | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 783 Registered: 2-2001 |
because its always more impressive when an engine makes 400hp from 3 liters than from 10 liters.... Ernesto | ||
| Chuck Babel (Chuck_98_rt10)
Junior Member Username: Chuck_98_rt10 Post Number: 72 Registered: 5-2002 |
I�m always perplexed by the HP per liter interest. IMO it�s who crosses the finish line first that matters. | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 262 Registered: 3-2002 |
There are better technologies out there than DOHC. That's as old as if not older than OHV pushrod motors. They are nothing new. This company used a Ford 5.0L with their spherical valve system and it went to 14,000 RPM or so... http://www.coatesengine.com/ They need to use something like that. 10,000 RPM is cool, but it'll probably be less reliable with current technology, something Ferrari is trying to acomplish. I hope the sucessor to the V8 mid engined car will feature at least 10 pistons, either horizontally opposed or in a vee. 12 would be sweeter. The V8's should remain for something like a new 308- or Dino-like car and the Maseratis. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2734 Registered: 2-2001 |
I think it'd be cooler to make a 3.5L engine rev to 10,000rpms reliably than to start bumping up engine size. Part of the Ferrari charm is the high tech, and although it is easier to make a good engine with larger displacement, it isn't quite as impressive. Plus, the 4xx are always gentleman Ferraris, kind of odd to put the 360 replacement in their with them. | ||
| Scotty (Pzerowaster)
New member Username: Pzerowaster Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2002 |
I wonder if it'll have a timing chain like the the 4.2 Maserati mote so folks won't have to have their car dismembered every 15,000 miles? That would be a pleasant change IMHO. Maybe it's just me, but I felt a little misty the last time I saw my pretty little red car up on the lift with it's entire ass end removed. And my wife gets a little misty when she sees the credit card bill. Just a thought. | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 256 Registered: 3-2002 |
460bhp is nice... | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 256 Registered: 4-2002 |
so will it be called a 380, or a 420 Modena? | ||
| ELI (Titanium360)
Junior Member Username: Titanium360 Post Number: 201 Registered: 4-2002 |
Is there going to be a change in the body design as well? | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 955 Registered: 8-2001 |
Hopefully, the speculations will give way to solid facts soon. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
New member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 8 Registered: 9-2002 |
My understanding from sometime back is that Ferrari had plans to increase the displacement of the 3.6 to 3.8, which had resulted in a 40bhp increase. The upgraded model was due in the last year or so of the production run for the car. Maybe things have changed? --Dan | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 397 Registered: 3-2002 |
maybe in the states but autocar says the new 420 will be sold in the uk within the next 12 months....not that i care that much but would be a bit peeved if i had just signed up for spring delivery..... | ||
| J.D. Smythe (Jeff)
Junior Member Username: Jeff Post Number: 64 Registered: 2-2001 |
Ferrari is not changing the 360 models for the 2003 production year. I believe Ferrari has already announced there would be no changes. However, 2004 models is probably when the new car is sold. | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 294 Registered: 10-2001 |
LOL , i guess my father will be happy to know that his brand new 360 is alreay old . Thanks Ferrari . | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 280 Registered: 7-2002 |
I don't understand the progression of engine size 308, 328, 348, 360, 420 ect. Why not just plop the big engine in there from the start? Obviously if they don't have it developed they can't use it, but simply increasing bore size, stroke etc...that all seems so simple. Now getting more hp out of the same small engine like lotus does...that is something I understand the progression of. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 391 Registered: 3-2002 |
autocar mag had an article yesterday saying that ferrari will drop a 4.2 ltr v8 from the masreati 4200 into the 360 body and call it a 420 modena. this is old info...the new part is that it will have 460bhp which is a significant increase over the present model - they are trying to match the upcoming baby lambo i guess. but this means 360's, although not slouches, will get whacked. if you are currently on the waiting list for one and it gets delivered 12 mths from now, will it be the 420 or 360? |