| Author |
Message |
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 253
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2002 - 3:23 pm: | |
Yet another one
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1869006458 |
Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member
Username: Jussumfastgi
Post Number: 256
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2002 - 3:06 pm: | |
It might be funny until they try and deliver your car. ;) |
Tazio Nuvolari (Nuvolari)
New member
Username: Nuvolari
Post Number: 19
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2002 - 2:53 pm: | |
Wow there are a lot of cool legal loopholes being discussed here. May I present, what I believe to be a more realistic account of what is goin on.
The seller has a zero feedback and therefore no credibility. Perhaps he is building future artificial credibility by posting these non-existent cars for sale and having his friends bid on it. They bid unheard of prices to guarantee the sale (for all we know the high bidder may have a $1,000,000,000 proxy bid in). In this way, he will build his rating and when people look at the cas he has sold, they are going to be impressed and 'trust' the seller when perhaps purchasing a much lesser car.
Either way the whole deal looks a little shady to me and it would be foolhardy of anyone with no seller rating on E-bay to not be walking on water to prove that they are legitimate.
What would be fun is if one of us were to bid $10,000,000,000 in the final 20 seconds of the auction and see what the seller would do. |
Kevin Butler (Challenge)
New member
Username: Challenge
Post Number: 7
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2002 - 2:16 pm: | |
What if I (theoretically) take delivery of my new leased Enzo. Then I take (MSRP) + (market value ajustment) + (agreed-upon risk fee for a worst-case accident) from someone who was unsuccessful in getting an invitation for one and place the $$ in a liquid "escrow" account. No paperwork changes hands, and FNA thinks I drive the car. As long as I personally am the one who interacts with the dealer/technicians, how is this a violation? The "sub-user" gets enjoyment of the car, I recover my purchase costs and have a stash for "indidentals," and everyone walks away happy? Are their restrictions in the Enzo agreement that state no one besides the leaseholder can take the thing around the block?? |
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 520
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2002 - 12:35 pm: | |
rob - assuming they don't release the title (like with the F50) they can screw you but good.
a car purchase is basically the purchase of the title. you get the steel (well, carbon fiber in this case!), plastic, and rubber for free along with that little piece of paper.
if FNA won't release the title until a year after delivery then you can't buy the title. as far as the insurance companies know; as far as the registries know; as far as anybody knows - the original buyer owns the car and FNA is holding title in a lease-like structure.
so you can't "buy it" from the owner since the owner can't transfer title.
no clue how you'd insure such a thing (you couldn't register or insure such a vehicle in MA unless the first buyer was basically a leasing company).
sorry if i'm beating a dead horse :-)
doody. |
Modified348ts (Modman)
Member
Username: Modman
Post Number: 382
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 15, 2002 - 12:26 am: | |
You cannot sublease cars from what I learned, it is still not your car but your responsibility for whatever happens to the car and if something goes wrong, you're screwed and being especially of a car of this value, not wise.If you paid in full and tried to lease it to someone which I have never seen would be nuts, think of the person leasing and gets into an accident- it's YOUR CAR and is going back to you. Also another thing most people don't know is that you're not supposed to trade in your car if there is a balance left on it and the bank has the title but everyone does it. Picture someone borrowing your car and they gave it to someone else without letting you know about it. To me it is too risky and I will always have a belief in never handing out money without having the product in front of me, I'd rather pay the extra bucks and not take a chance- we live in an untrustfull world unfortunately and if I can afford and Enzo, well money would not be an object anyway, may not be like that to a very few but to me that is the way it is. People buying these kind of cars have millions and it would be pocket change for them and saving money is not a thing in their minds, they want- they buy- don't care about price. I know a few people that are like that and I can see why... |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts
Post Number: 2377
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 7:17 pm: | |
There is no way they can screw you. The money would be in escrow until delivery. Only risk I see is unclear title, but that's your responsibility to research anyway. |
Amir H. (355spiderman)
New member
Username: 355spiderman
Post Number: 29
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 6:48 pm: | |
It has met reserve on Ebay!!! Wow! |
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 519
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 5:41 pm: | |
agreed, ernesto. it is feasible and plausible.
the question you'd need to ask though is exactly how many human beings you would trust with $1.2M of your money and absolutely no legal recourse if they screwed you ;-)
doody! |
Joseph (Mojo)
New member
Username: Mojo
Post Number: 40
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 5:25 pm: | |
It's just a car, like a yugo. But faster |
A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
New member
Username: Senna1994
Post Number: 38
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 4:03 pm: | |
Ernesto and Magoo you guys are hilarious. |
Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member
Username: Miami348ts
Post Number: 2976
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 3:56 pm: | |
I agree with Rob here, why should it be a scam? He is not asking for a deposit or $100 for the raffle ticket.
Appears legit. Just don't see anybody paying $1.2M for that car. That is an insane $600,000 over sticker!
I know somebody too that will receive a Enzo in Spring. Can't wait to visit his garage! He has other nice toys. F40 prestine, XJR 15 Jag, 360 Challenge and others that will make the Enzo feel right at home!
|
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 3231
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 2:33 pm: | |
Not so ya could notice it Ernesto........... |
tony liokossis (Tonybaloney)
New member
Username: Tonybaloney
Post Number: 13
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 12:19 pm: | |
Doody, I attended a dinner about a month ago where the key speaker is an F-car nut (has an F-50 and 550 Barchetta among others). He had just got the call a week before that he was on the list but the dealer he usually goes through wasn't allocated a single car! He couldn't figure out how they were going to accomplish that, but it does support the idea of the Enzos being sold out. |
Ernesto (T88power)
Member
Username: T88power
Post Number: 799
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 11:39 am: | |
Doody, I am sure a sublease is a violation of the original lease or purchase agreement, but it could be very easily done between two trusting individuals - and FNA would never find out. I see very little risk, as one party gets the $$ and the other the car with the $1 purchase option at the end of the term, so the car is practically his. But I agree that if FNA were to find out, they would yank the car and the buyer would not get an invite for the F60 (or the "Michael" or whatever they'll call it).
Also, I am sure that several dealers in the US have sold out Enzos, but from what I have read there are many available - but probably mostly in Europe.
Ernesto |
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 517
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 11:25 am: | |
ernesto - that assumes that a lease/sublease isn't a violation of the purchase agreement with FNA, which it probably would be, right? i'm no lawyer, but i don't think you can have a binding legal agreement (between "2nd buyer" and "1st buyer") based on something that is known to be not legal ("1st buyer can't transfer").
furthermore, if the purchase agreement with FNA has restrictions on it like this, who would pay money up-front (especially money like this!) for a car that they may never get title for? i guess it could happen, but you'd have to be an awfully trusting soul to risk that kind of capital.
FNA could probably yank the car back from the first buyer if they violate the agreement (dealer pays them back MSRP minus some usage math) and gets the car. that'd suck big time!
i guess we'll see what the paperwork looks like at some point not too far away!
i still don't buy that there are slots available for four reasons.
(1) why would ferrari have upped the production run if they couldn't move them?
(2) i personally know of at least two people ripshit that they weren't invited nor couldn't get invited.
(3) my understanding is that there were no "slots" for this. it was all invitation only. dealers submitted stuff and corporate yay'd and nay'd.
(4) if there were still slots available then ever brokers would be calling every authorized dealer worldwide every single day to get those slots.
i could believe that some of the people who have been invited may not have responded yet. so those allocations are "in the air" but i would assume that each dealership has a "b list" ready to be contacted.
who knows. i'm putting stuff together by educated rumor, conjecture, and logic. maybe it's just flat wrong :-)
doody. |
Ernesto (T88power)
Member
Username: T88power
Post Number: 798
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 9:44 am: | |
are you standing magoo?
Ernesto |
magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member
Username: Magoo
Post Number: 3230
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 9:35 am: | |
Will the real "Wanna Be" stand up. |
Ernesto (T88power)
Member
Username: T88power
Post Number: 797
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Monday, October 14, 2002 - 9:00 am: | |
It would be the easiest thing in the world for someone to lease or buy an Enzo (if he had the opportunity and money) for $650K, then sublease it to someone else via a one-year lease agreement with option to buy for a $1.5 million payment, plus a $1 buyout. He would still have title of the car, or be the primary lessee, but not possession. Ferrari couldn't touch this, and I understand this was done many times over with the F50.
By the way, several publications have stated that there are still many Enzo spots available.
Ernesto |
Dan (Bobafett)
New member
Username: Bobafett
Post Number: 21
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 13, 2002 - 11:21 pm: | |
Doody,
Interesting. What's to say that someone didn't sell their spot / car (look at the price diff. 1.2m is a long way from MSRP)? I suppose since it's not from Ferrari (perhaps on purpose? I'd imagine FNA would be very upset if a dealer sold it at a premium - this could be a collaborative effort).
Regardless, I'm now curious to see what the contract looks like.
--Dan |
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 515
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, October 13, 2002 - 7:32 pm: | |
[DAN]
i think your friend is mistaken.
the 349 original cars were invitation-only, and were purportedly fully sold (ie: invitations were accepted). the 50 additional cars are being built because other serious collectors screamed bloody murder and ferrari caved to the pressure to build more.
furthermore, even if there were open slots, there's no way in hell a dealer wouldn't scoop the allocation up and sell it on the secondary market for a quick 50% or more gain.
i think it is exceptionally unlikely that there are any open slots - especially in the US.
[ROB]
of course there's risk, you're committing to buy the car upon delivery. if that's ten years out you're screwed. i'm sure there's going to a contract involved at these number levels. and if the delivery is one year after release that ought to be disclosed. and if it isn't, an explanation is certainly in order.
my guess is that this is a broker fishing for leads. the high bidder is buying the right to be at the top of his "enzo search list" and nothing more.
all conjecture, of course. but i have repeatedly heard that these cars will not be accessible to the secondary market.
my understanding with the F50 lease program was that you couldn't get the title until the two years was up. you could prepay the lease if you liked, but you would not be handed title until the two year period was over (four years in NY for some legal reason?). can't imagine they'd do this much differently.
doody. |
Dan (Bobafett)
New member
Username: Bobafett
Post Number: 20
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 13, 2002 - 6:20 pm: | |
I don't think it's a scam either. Ferrari, as I understand it, has yet to sell out their allotment of the Enzo cars. If you dig hard enough, you can get one (this is from a dealer-friend). I don't know about importing a Euro car, however, as that would be VERY tricky.
--Dan |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts
Post Number: 2365
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, October 13, 2002 - 10:33 am: | |
I don't see very much risk on either side of the transaction... payment isn't due until delivery. |
Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member
Username: Timn88
Post Number: 1481
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, October 13, 2002 - 3:22 am: | |
can you say "scamola?" we here at fchat are so sakeptical and we have the skills to get to the bottom of crap like this. I'm proud to call myself a memebr of fcaht at times like this. |
Todd Gieger (Todd328gts)
Junior Member
Username: Todd328gts
Post Number: 181
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 11:50 pm: | |
If this is a scam, this would be the ultimate set of brass balls...being in the biz...there is NO WAY they would get away with it. |
J. Grande (Jay)
Member
Username: Jay
Post Number: 617
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 11:45 pm: | |
I saw it this morning and saw right through it. Must be a scam, either that or they don't deliver until the year buy back is expired. Stay away! |
Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member
Username: Doody
Post Number: 514
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 10:25 pm: | |
this sure looks fishy to me.
no contact info whatsoever on the individual or organization selling. zero feedback seller. the username links to Birmingham Imports in MI. not an authorized ferrari dealer, obviously.
my understanding is that all Enzos come with a one-year dealer buy-back agreement. if you want to sell it before the year is up, you have to sell it back to the dealer.
the folks invited by maranello to purchase an Enzo was very seriously reviewed. some guys who've bought one of everything ferrari has ever produced still couldn't get one. it was something like two or three per dealer in the US.
in order for an Enzo to hit the open market without the one year wait, my understanding is that the dealer would have had to get the "invitation spot" past maranello. or the dealer(s) will collude with guys on the list to do an instant flip at delivery. i can't imagine this will make FNA or FSpA happy - and they've been stomping down hard on dealers who've been selling outside their geography, et. al.
we'll see.
i'd be REALLY careful about buying an Enzo outside "the system" unless i was holding the title :-)
doody |
Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member
Username: Davewapinski
Post Number: 384
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 9:50 pm: | |
Martin,
Will trade Lynn for a test ride.
LOL |
Dave Wapinski (Davewapinski)
Member
Username: Davewapinski
Post Number: 383
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 9:48 pm: | |
I asked Lynn to get it for me for my birthday and/or Christmas. However, she said that she was keeping it.!
Such is love. |
martin J weiner,M.D. (Mw360)
Member
Username: Mw360
Post Number: 600
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 7:23 pm: | |
I wish to remain anonymous! |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts
Post Number: 2364
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 7:11 pm: | |
Not Chris, but that would of been my first guess too.
No one would be suprised if they heard this users name. |
William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member
Username: Countachxx
Post Number: 1499
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 5:55 pm: | |
Chris is getting an Enzo ? Cool
You can get a Big Mac for $1.2 M
I still prefer the Porsche 911GT1 |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts
Post Number: 2362
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 5:13 pm: | |
BTW, privacy respected, but we have a frequent poster who has expressed some interest with our title sponsor about getting an Enzo. |
ARIE BONSELAAR (Arie)
New member
Username: Arie
Post Number: 19
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 2:07 pm: | |
I was thinking about it! just 1,199,000.00 short! |
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Junior Member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 233
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 10:27 am: | |
I saw that this morning. Seems fishy. I Chris selling his car?
here is the link
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1868012607 |
tommy jones (360mode)
New member
Username: 360mode
Post Number: 40
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, October 12, 2002 - 10:20 am: | |
? |