| Author | Message | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
Junior Member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 53 Registered: 3-2002 |
The exhaust/gas smell is part of the Ferrari experience. All the old 250s and 330s I have been involved with have been the same. There are a lot of small places for fumes to leak into the cabin on these older cars. You can spend some time with the interior out filling holes and using some sort of insulation material everywhere. That will make a difference. When you are idling there seems to be a sort of pulling of fumes into the car from the exhaust. In my mind it is not offensive. | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
New member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 40 Registered: 2-2002 |
I got the exhaust smell, flushed face, and a little light headed when I drove an'85 TR I used to have. I would go out on a date and even the smart women were "dumb blondes" by the end of the drive. My 512TR and my old '91 TR are very civilized and have no smell at all. Now I have to buy drinks  | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Junior Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 83 Registered: 9-2002 |
James, Somehow I can't believe that the process works without fail or damage even most of the time... I guess it's all part of the game. (Can you see the green eyed monster? ) --Dan | ||
| James Napolis (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 61 Registered: 10-2002 |
To start my P4 you squirt raw fuel into the 12 intake trumpets,turn on the pumps which brings the fuel pressure up to 120PSI,retard the cam on the Lucas injector controler and push the button. After it fires you advance the cam and gently warm it up. Does it smell? Like Napalm in the morning. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2728 Registered: 12-2000 |
Heck, I get that in the 328, I'm curious what others say about the real classics though. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 460 Registered: 8-2002 |
Greg, It's called "ode de Ferrari" M | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
New member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 39 Registered: 2-2002 |
After driving the 250 PF my clothes become tainted with an exhuast/gas smell. Since this is the only "older Ferrari" I have been in I have nothing to compare it to. is this normal? Is it part of the "experience"? I had the exhaust pipes looked at and there are no visible signs of leakage. Would appreciate any comments. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 404 Registered: 8-2002 |
Rijk, Here is a link to what the Barchetta site has on your car: http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/14771.365GTB4.htm In addition to this, Hil Raab's S/N book has it as being originally sold through Harrah. Funny thing, in checking up on your car, I found a source that stated that you were the owner and included links to your postings on this site as well as the pic of your car posted here somewhere. | ||
| Rijk Rietveld (Rijk365gtb4)
Junior Member Username: Rijk365gtb4 Post Number: 74 Registered: 1-2002 |
L. Wayne I'm VERY impressed with the access to information you must have. Do you know anything about my 14771? Thanks, Rijk | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
New member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 50 Registered: 3-2002 |
Thanks, Wayne. The picture is comparable to the barchetta pictures you referenced earlier. Thanks for the research. David | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 403 Registered: 8-2002 |
Dave, if you are interested, there is a photo of 0757 GT in Forza #39, pg 22 while at the Retromobile in Paris earlier this year. | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 66 Registered: 8-2001 |
Yes, he is "close"... :-) Quite impressive, I might add! | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
New member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 48 Registered: 3-2002 |
Thanks for the info, Wayne. I have always had an obsession with bringing items back from the dead. It sounds like there is a pretty good reason why this body is sitting alone right now. You have met my challenge and successfully answered both of my questions. Thank you. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 402 Registered: 8-2002 |
Dave, Thanks for the challenge. Here's my response: The rest of the car is in the Netherlands with owner Mr. de Jong (registered on Dutch plates DM-40-95). According to Mr. de Jong, he had a 250 Ellena with a "bad body" and asked Zagato to use it as the basis for a 250 TdF Zagato replica. The work was completed sometime around 1997 and this body ended up with Paul Koot. Mr Koot offered the body for sale to Dries Jetten who says that he turned down the offer because the body was in too poor condition to be used on his own 250 Ellena, s/n 0739, which he has since had rebodied into a 250 TdF replica. Though the body appears fine in the pictures presented on eBay, it has been described as being "bad" on more than one occasion in the past by those who have inspected it closely and was originally removed from its chassis for that exact reason. I hope that I satisfactorily answered both of your questions regarding the current location of s/n 0757 GT and the reason why you might have second thoughts regarding purchasing its discarded remains. | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 123 Registered: 4-2002 |
David, The body is fine as long as you can find an inside plug 250GT at about $35,000 - $40,000 to put it on, then rebuild the engine at $25,000 to $30,000, find the rest of the interior, and have it all redone at?. Maybe that would be less money than finding an actual complete Ellana, and redoing it. Let me know. | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
New member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 47 Registered: 3-2002 |
I'm an optimist. I think that I will stumble upon a barn find someday and will need a solid body for the restoration. I just want to be prepared. | ||
| Joseph (Mojo)
Junior Member Username: Mojo Post Number: 105 Registered: 9-2002 |
Dave that looks like it would fit right on a Volkswagon pan. What do you think? | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
New member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 46 Registered: 3-2002 |
L. Wayne, My challenge to you is to tell me why I should not consider this car on ebay and also tell me where the rest of it is these days. I am really intrigued with this. http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1871631243 | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 401 Registered: 8-2002 |
Douglas, BTW, here's a pic of the car as it looks today:  | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 400 Registered: 8-2002 |
Douglas, The car you're referring to, s/n 16467, was wrecked in 1977 (possibly during the making of the film?). US Ferrari importer Luigi Chinetti commissioned designer and coachbuilder Giovanni Michelotti to rebuild the car into what was one of several rebodied specials Chinetti referred to as "NART Spyders" (not to be confused with the beautiful 275 GTS/4 NART Spyders). It was later shown at the 1980 Turin Salon and currently resides here in the US with owner Ross Provenzano. Wayne | ||
| Douglas A Hunt (Boxercrazy)
New member Username: Boxercrazy Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2002 |
hello everyone,Douglas Hunt here,long time lurker,first time poster....i dont yet own a ferrari,but after all the posts about doing your own services(i would have to drive 5/7 hours for a dealer i guess,minimum)i think i could take care of a 308 series,now to convince myself to get out of boating(takes up all my nice weekends)and maybe look into a nice 308 gt4(i love the bertone body with the headlights "up") sorry ,didnt mean to hijack this thread,it has facinated me from the first(i love the vintage cars)and my all time favorite is the Boxer.. my question is(since l. wayne asked)is what happened to the daytona that chris cristofferson drove in "a star is born" man i loved that daytona!!!! this is a great place to learn,as you guys all know,thanks for sharing douglas hunt | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 398 Registered: 8-2002 |
Rob, while the car is identifiable by the combination of round driving lights and 3 heat extractor vents, it's the unusually wide, eliptical grille that really gives away its identity. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2656 Registered: 12-2000 |
Wayne, you tha man! Jay, is he close? | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 397 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jay, the "GTO" in question appears to be s/n 4561 SA, actually a 400 Superamerica that was bodied as a GTO from new. The current owner is Carlo Voegele of Switzerland, who has the car registered on plates "SZ 903." It is difficult to remain "anonymous" when you own one of these cars. | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 65 Registered: 8-2001 |
..By the way, when I referred to that "other" GTO, it was meant tongue in cheek... | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 64 Registered: 8-2001 |
:-) When his shop guy took the picture, he told me (in his broken English) to keep it "private" so at least I can say I kept my promise... | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2638 Registered: 12-2000 |
LOL Jay, come on, you're dealing with FerrariChat.com users here, we'll have the owner identified within 2 days just from that little picture. | ||
| Jim Glickenhaus (Napolis)
New member Username: Napolis Post Number: 32 Registered: 10-2002 |
There were three GTO's 62,64 and 288. | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 120 Registered: 4-2002 |
I would be inclined to call the 288, the "Other GTO " | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 63 Registered: 8-2001 |
I'm a huge fan of GTO's... While in Europe this summer I had the rare opportunity to see two spectacular examples. The first is a 288GTO. This particular car has only 2,480 original kilometers (i.e. 1,538 miles). It is more pristine than you can imagine... never even driven in rain. It is owned by the Scuderia von Ruschenberg collection. The second is that "other" GTO. I'll have to withhold info on this particular car, as the owner wishes to remain private and anonymous. It's got a few more miles on it, but is no less spectacular.   | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 395 Registered: 8-2002 |
Nice car, Mike. I haven't seen your pics before. | ||
| michelangelo pinto (Michelangelonyc)
New member Username: Michelangelonyc Post Number: 42 Registered: 2-2002 |
i know i posted my pics before but since i heard 2+2 mentioned here we go again...   | ||
| Jim Glickenhaus (Napolis)
New member Username: Napolis Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2002 |
I believe I did... Best | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 305 Registered: 10-2001 |
Jim, Magnificent cars !! Congratulation ! By any chance did you met my father some weeks ago , his name is Eduardo Menasce and he told me me had met a 330 P4 owner ( ex david piper if i remember correctly ..). He lives in Rye . | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 304 Registered: 10-2001 |
Jim, Magnificent cars !! Congratulation ! By any chance did you meet my father some weeks ago , his name is Eduardo Menasce and he told me he had met a 330 P4 owner ( ex david piper if i remember correctly ..). He lives in Rye . | ||
| John Ashburne (Jashburne)
New member Username: Jashburne Post Number: 4 Registered: 9-2002 |
Just a purely speculative guess as to why the 250PF and other similar era headrests seem to appear only on the passenger side is that maybe they were, for these long distance cruisers, intended as a passenger comfort item. In other words, to aid the passenger in a nap while on the road up to Switzerland or where ever. No headrest needed for the driver of course, who was expected to stay awake for the journey! | ||
| william speer (Wspeer)
Junior Member Username: Wspeer Post Number: 62 Registered: 8-2002 |
several years back i saw sn 0844 at harley cluxtons in phoenix. the car was still in its can-am trim. later the car went to symbolic to be rebodied and i believe went to chris cox. although the can-am body was beatuiful, i would have loved to see it in it's original body configuration. | ||
| william speer (Wspeer)
Junior Member Username: Wspeer Post Number: 61 Registered: 8-2002 |
several years back i saw sn 0844 at harley cuxtons in phoenix. the car was still in its can-am trim. later the car went to symbolic to be rebodied and i believe went to chris cox. although the can-am body was beatuiful, i would have loved to see it in it's original body configuration. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2536 Registered: 12-2000 |
I meant like Ferrari Historic racing that runs along with the Challenge series, those cars have to be orginal historic racers I think. Most other vintage racing organizations in Texas have about a 1974 cut off. | ||
| Jim Glickenhaus (Napolis)
New member Username: Napolis Post Number: 14 Registered: 10-2002 |
The ex Dean Martin Jr. P3 is back in race trim.  | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1537 Registered: 2-2001 |
Jim WOW!!!! made my day That is without doubt the single most beautiful car in the 100+ years of the automobile Regarding my 512TR race car project, That will also be able to race in vinatge series & it will knock a BBLM into next week probably do the same to a road F40 F40LM might take a little more work to crack | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
New member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 37 Registered: 3-2002 |
This P4 discussion reminds me of an old article in either Car & Driver or Motor Trend about a P3 or P4 that Dean Martin's son bought and had converted to street use. Does anybody else remember this and where is that car these days? | ||
| Jim Glickenhaus (Napolis)
New member Username: Napolis Post Number: 13 Registered: 10-2002 |
Note P5 inboard brakes,Engine not P4 probably FI,Bolt on wheels not knockoff,chassis totaly different as is wheelbase and track... What will I do with it? The same as with My Mk-IV and My Lola, register it,drive it on Sundays, take it to shows,and pass it on to my kids. I realize just how lucky I am to be a costodian of these pieces of history and my obligation to care for them and pass they on ...     | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 390 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jim, thanks for sharing the info and the pics. Where is this car located now? | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Junior Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 212 Registered: 3-2002 |
Im speechless! | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 525 Registered: 2-2002 |
Jim: I'm flabbergasted! A Ford GT Mk IV and a P4? You're my hero! | ||
| Jim Glickenhaus (Napolis)
New member Username: Napolis Post Number: 12 Registered: 10-2002 |
Truth is never offensive but it's not necessarly what everyone believes or that which is written. For many years many believed that MK-IV J6 won LeMans in 1967 driven by Gurney/Foyt and that J5 Driven by Donohue/McLaren finished fourth. The people who believed this included many "experts", authors and even The Henery Ford Museum. They were wrong. J5 is the Foyt/Gurney car and mine which is J6 is the Donohue/Mclaren car. Proving this involved a lot of work including finding bills of lading, taking cars apart, and not being afraid of finding the truth no matter what it was. The latest editions have corected this mistake. If you call Bob Casey at the Henry Ford museam he will confirm this, even though they still haven't corrected their signs. My car is J6 always has been and their car is J5,even though it is missing it's chassis plate, original engine, original steering wheel, radiator and other parts. It does however still have the crushed section of tub which John Collins hammered down to give Dan Gurney a little more head room as mine still has the dent that Bruce Mclaren made when he threw down his helmut and ran off to retrieve the tail section that had blown off on the Mulseanne after he hit 223MPH. 0846...Burned and destroyed? I have copies of French TV showing it after it burned far from destroyed... Destroyed by Ferrari? In the 70ies a Ferrari 330 P4 0846 was imported into Swisserland on a canet... What about P5? Pina Farinia claims to have built it on the chassis of P4 0846 which somehow showed up in their basement... Tomorrow I'll post a pic of P5 chassis... IMHO it ain't 0846, nor do I think anyone who sees this pic and compares it to a P4 would either. 0846 began as a P3 and was converted into a P4. My chassis was converted as well. Parts of it were labled 0846... By who? Why? Inch by inch this story is unfolding... | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 389 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jim, please don't be offended if I am misinformed but, I understood that 0846 was considered destroyed and gone. I was told that Piper combined parts from the car (including the original engine) with the body from s/n 0860 and resurrected it as s/n 0900 (# "gifted" to him by the factory) and that the original chassis from 0846 was possibly sitting beneath the "250 P5" show car. What's your take on this? | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Junior Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 57 Registered: 9-2002 |
All I can muster up is WOW. I think Wayne put it best. So what are your plans for the car? --Dan | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
New member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 36 Registered: 3-2002 |
Of all the cars Ferrari has produced, the P4 is by far my favorite model. I am truly enthralled with those great pictures, Jim. Congratulations on owning such a great piece of Ferrari history. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2527 Registered: 12-2000 |
Here's a link on #846, I couldn't find anything yet on #900... http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/0846.330P3.htm | ||
| Jim Glickenhaus (Napolis)
New member Username: Napolis Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2002 |
This is 0846. It was a P3 that was converted by Ferrari into the first P4. It has a long history including winning Daytona in 1967. It was raced as both a coupe and a spyder. At LeMans in 1967 it developed a flat tire. Amon tried to fix it with the trusty Ferrari hammer but the head came off. He tried to drive back to the pits but the wheel caught on fire and the car burned. David Piper aquired the remains and many P4 spares from Enzo Ferrari and built this car which he and others including John Surtees raced for many years. I acquired the car from David when I met him at the Goodwood festival of Speed in 2000. Yes I still have my MK-IV and My Lola and use them regulary. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 388 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jim, can you tell me which P4 this is and how long it's been in your care? Do you still have the '67 Mk IV GT40? The '67 Lola Mk III-B? (1967 must've been a good year for you, huh?) | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 457 Registered: 3-2002 |
jim, awesome ! beyond cool ! love it ! wish i had one ! be sure to post some pics when its all painted and ready for battle. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2518 Registered: 12-2000 |
Ohh My! | ||
| Jim Glickenhaus (Napolis)
New member Username: Napolis Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2002 |
   | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2512 Registered: 12-2000 |
Jim, please post pics of your beautiful car, if you need, I will post them for you. | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 115 Registered: 4-2002 |
David, My car is a 1959 so it is an inside plug 128D. It also has the lever shocks, mine are Houdalle ( Spelling? ) they are French I believe. I do have the overdrive, but amazingly I have never tried it to see if it works. Isn't that crazy? Thanks for reminding me, I've made a note and will try to remember to use the overdrive next weekend. I also have the disc brakes, they were added in 1983 by a previous owner, thank God. I have traced the history from new, and have personally spoken to every previous owner with the exception of Prince Bertil. I was told by the second owner that he purchased the car from Bertil in 1961. | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
New member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 35 Registered: 3-2002 |
Bill, I also think the differences in the cars are very interesting but it is a little frustrating to me to think that I will never have the definitive answer of what is correct and what is a later addition with some of these cars. My car had lever shocks, disc brakes, overdrive, outside plugs, 16" wires. How about yours? | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 114 Registered: 4-2002 |
David, IT IS OF UTMOST IMPORTANCE, at least to me anyway. The 40DCL-6 Carbs are monstere in my opinion. Your car must have hauled ass! My car has 36DCL and I ( Sorry guys )wonder which is the norm! Oh, after consulting the 250 GT Shop manual, it is indeed the 40DCL, I must have the wimpier carb set up. | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
New member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 34 Registered: 3-2002 |
Bill, the fuel pressure gauge was mounted at the bottom of the dashboard below the other gauges. Just above my right knee. It was an exact match to the other gauges and was mounted such that it could have come from the factory but as always, who knows. It was scary to watch the pressure move so much as I drove the car so I took to not paying attention to it. I'm not sure why someone would need that on a street car. It also had 40DCL6 carbs. Also interesting is the fact that way before I had the car it was well known for having wide whitewall tires. I happened to take pictures of it 10 years before I owned it with the whitewalls on just because I thought it looked so strange. Again, what is correct for this car and how important is it to know? | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Junior Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 52 Registered: 9-2002 |
No offense, but for someone so very knowledgable, Mr. Roush sounds like an ***hole. Clearly SOMEONE is interested and wants to find out. Sounds as if he doesn't know. A simple statement to that extent would have sufficed, I think. Naturally this doesn't reflect on Mr. Ausbrooks, as he is only the messenger, and going out of his way to seek out a definitive answer. --Dan | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 113 Registered: 4-2002 |
David, Where was the oil pressure gauge located? Contrary to Mr. Roush's comments, I am interested in Headrests, and any other unusual variations in these cars. I am always eager to learn something that I didn't know before about these cars. I find it much more interesting than posts about what your personalized license plate says, or what wax is recomended for your Ferrari. And I really don't care what songs remind you of your Ferrari. In fact I would be very interested if Enzo once farted in my car. | ||
| Jim Glickenhaus (Napolis)
New member Username: Napolis Post Number: 9 Registered: 10-2002 |
My 1967 330 P4 has a 10 Bar fuel psi qauge. | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
New member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 33 Registered: 3-2002 |
Great post, Wayne. I have subscribed to the FML since 1976 and have always enjoyed Gerald's comments on these crazy cars. The old saying is that no two cars were alike. It depended on what was on the shelf or what supplier was extending credit that day. That is what makes researching these old cars so interesting. By the way, my PF coupe had a fuel pressure gauge. How many others did? I don't expect an answer. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 387 Registered: 8-2002 |
Here's a brief summary (PARAPHASED) of Gerald Roush's take on the headrest issue. QUESTION: Were they offered as "factory" options, added by a single distributor, requested by individual customers, or added after the fact? ANSWER: No such thing as "factory options" in those days. Not sure but most likely they are rare oddities that were added at the customers' requests. (Pointed out that there are some PF coupes that were ordered with cloth seats, etc.) QUESTION: Why are they all on the passenger side only? ANSWER: Who says they are? Have you personally seen every single PF coupe that has a headrest? QUESTION: Were all PF coupes originally built with headrest brackets regardless of whether they had a headrest or not? ANSWER: Ridiculous question. Why would they be? SUMMARY: Why are you concerning yourself with this issue? The early cars could be ordered to each customer's liking and there is no real "standard" to compare them to. I have seen some cars with a headrest but most without. What does it matter, anyway? | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 516 Registered: 2-2002 |
William H: You need to ask yourself a number of questions: -Are you addicted to 12 cylinder grunt, or will a twin turbo satisfy you? -What is the relative cost of repairing/maintaining/modifying each? Are parts readily available for the BB? -Are you interested in expanding into historic racing, as Rob pointed out? -If you buy the BB will you be tempted to modify it beyond recognizability? Will the historic racing associations allow that? Either choice, of course, is a good one. | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 112 Registered: 4-2002 |
Wayne and Greg, I spoke to Fred Peters, and Chuck Betts yesterday about these Headrests. These two guy's are definately experts on the older cars, and always pleased to give you any information you may be seeking. Chuck told me that he has seen several headrests on PF Coupes over the years. Also he said he has seen passenger side Headrests on at least two TDF Cars, and at least one 250 SWB. He further stated that he believes that Ferrari had two seat options on the PF Coupe. The standard non adjustable seat back, and what Chuck referred to as the Rallye (Spelling? ) Seat that he said came with the Headrest. This Rallye seat had the adjustable seat back. ( Which my car has, and I bet Gregs does too ) I do disagree to some point in that either the Rallye seat was very popular, or I have managed to see only cars with the Rallye Seat option. In addition, as per my first posts, I stated that these brackets were evident on every ORIGINAL car I have seen. Many cars could have had the seats recovered over the years, and therefore the brackets were left off! The headrests themselves being very rare is not confusing to me. How many cars do not have the original tool kit, owners manual, or leather owners pouch in them when they are purchased 40 years later. The fact that some or all of these items are missing on most cars does not indicate that they do not or did not exist originally! Bill | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2475 Registered: 12-2000 |
BBLM you could do historic racing. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2474 Registered: 12-2000 |
rob a Federal Reserve, rob a bank, rob two banks. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1524 Registered: 2-2001 |
Ive been thinking of an F40 vs a BBLM, I love them both, they r both about the same $. I think the F40 is a little faster. What do you guys think ? | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1529 Registered: 9-2001 |
an early red head, a newer red head, a supercharged red head - | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 440 Registered: 3-2002 |
william, how right u are.... quiz: unless you have some sort of trick question in mind then, 1. the kind phil hill drove in the 60's 2. the first run that came out in 84 and ran till early 92. 3. the kind that ran 92-94. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1521 Registered: 2-2001 |
for the price some people paid for a 360 SPyder they could have had an F40 I know which 1 I would have taken in a heartbeat Quiz: Difference between a Testa Rossa, a Testarossa, and a 512TR ? | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
New member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 30 Registered: 2-2002 |
Wayne-Thanks for the research adding to the history of my car. I think Sheehan had the info from the appraisal the previous owner had given him but only part of the story. I can now add this info you gave me to its records. I love the name...can't get more Italian than Silvio Gamberini!! Thanks again, Greg "First owner was Silvio Gamberini in Bologna, Italy, not Dr. George Kellner of Cleveland/OH/USA." | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 386 Registered: 8-2002 |
Oh-oh, Bill. Did you read that last post by Dave? Now I'm REALLY confused! I think this calls for an e-mail to Mr. Roush. I'll post the response. Greg, I just received a response from Marcel Massini regarding the history on your car. He says that Mike was wrong about the original owner. I'll forward his response. Wayne | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
New member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 31 Registered: 3-2002 |
William, I don't want to sound like a broken record but I agree with you totally when you say it is the character and spirit that is important. A good older car can be a reliable and enjoyable hobby car. I am not looking to drive my car for daily transportation. By the way, I used to own PF Coupe #1635 and it did not have headrest mounts. | ||
| william speer (Wspeer)
Junior Member Username: Wspeer Post Number: 56 Registered: 8-2002 |
william, when i started this thread by asking what people know, i had no idea that the thread would grow as it has. i am glad to see the origins of the headrest on gregs car cause such confusion. i have been amazed by many ferrari owners ignorance of the older cars. such things as several people sitting around debating what that is ( it was a 365 gtc- i was even more amazed that they didn't even know what a 330 gtc was). i am not saying that they don't deserve to be included in the ferrari world, but it just amazes me. years ago when i first became interested in ferraris, an older man named sid simpson pulled me aside and told me meny things that have stuck with me in my ferrari experience - one being that just because somebody has dollars, doesn't mean they have sense (cents). not that i hold anything against someone for having and enjoying a 360, i think they are great cars, but for the money (keep in mind they are still selling for over sticker) you can have a great vintage ferrari that in ten years will still be worth the same, give or take a little. the 360, if history is any indication of the future, will have gone down considerabley. for $200k, it is amazing the great cars you can have and enjoy in the same way. sure they may not be as reliable or fast, but they have character and spirit. i'll take that any day of the week. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1519 Registered: 2-2001 |
Ive been into Ferraris since I was 5 years old so I know a thing or 2 about the older cars. I'm no expert but I know the differences between a 250 GTO series 1 & 2, a 250LM, 330 P4, 312P, 312PB, 512S, 512M etc. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 266 Registered: 1-2002 |
'75 308 GT4 (Peter): Regarding the abarth. Thank you for the info, as far as Im concerend the prospect of the car being used as a historic artifact [read: authentic to every detail] would be nil; it just struck me as a 'fun' car, with some character. Then again, the breadth of knowledge you show, makes the car seem tainted in a way, as in, 'hmm..well, I'd like it to be original, wouldn't I?' Regarding the asking price, I believe it's $35K, not sure of a spare package to accompany the car, but whats your take? Thank again for the insight. -Hubert PS- I thinks it also pertinent to call out L. Waynes contributions; this discussion could not have been as insightful w/out his contribution. | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 110 Registered: 4-2002 |
Greg, I have been told by two west coast mechanics that the compression on one of these cars straight from the factory in 59 thru 61 would probably have that variance in compression. Mine has about the same range, and doesn't smoke other than normal. I am curios about the hand strap on the passenger side. Is it braided? Bill | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
New member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 29 Registered: 2-2002 |
Here is another pic that shows the bracket...looks like the same one that is on Sheehan's car. BTW, I bought this car sight unseen from these pics and I was impressed that the dome light and other gauges were working. Compression ranged from 135-165 which is not great but supposadly not too bad for a 250 engine that has not been touched. Blows some smoke and part of it is due to not having valve guides due to its racing heritage.  | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 385 Registered: 8-2002 |
Re: the RHD issue: A colleague of mine has informed me that, according to his records (which are very reliable) the only factory RHD PF Coupes are 1081 GT, 1083 GT, 1251 GT, 1975 GT and possibly 1973 GT. He says that 1667 GT and 1725 GT might have been converted for Austrailia. | ||
| Francisco J. Quinones (Frankie)
New member Username: Frankie Post Number: 37 Registered: 8-2002 |
mmm,don't know much about older Ferraris but i do like the 166MM Barchetta, 340 America cabrio,250GTE,250SWB,250GTO,500 superfast,275GTB/4,275GTB/4S NART,365GTB/4 andGTS/4,365GTC,308GTS Q.V.,328GTS,TESTAROSSA,F40,F50,550 Barchetta Pinifarina annnnd must have 288GTO w/ 355GTS next to it | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 109 Registered: 4-2002 |
JPL' This person would then have to of owned every 250PF Coupe made, or at least every one that I have seen. I am wondering if the America, and the GTE have these brackets. Or if it is mainly the PF Cars. Anyone? | ||
| JP Lavigne (Jpl)
New member Username: Jpl Post Number: 48 Registered: 12-2001 |
I have looked through my 50 plus books on older Ferrari's and can only find three books that show the head rests, two are the same books mentioned in previous replies and the third is Godfrey Eaton's Complete Ferrari. Pictures on page 95 clearly show a 250GT TDF with passenger side head rest, page 97, a more recent picture of a blue 56, LWB 250 and page 112 a red 400 Superamerica with a passenger side head rest. What I do see in most of the other pictures is that they clearly show the tops and backs of the passenger seat and that there is no parts/slots to accept an optional head rest, so the only thing I can conclude is that it was an option and not a very popular one, or they were added shortly after taking delivery. Perhaps these cars all went to the same distributor/customer and this was his way of individualizing his or her own car. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2449 Registered: 12-2000 |
Wow, that's awesome Wayne. Congrats Greg, is that info you didn't have before? If you don't mind posting the info, please do or email me privately if you don't mind. This is cool. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 384 Registered: 8-2002 |
Greg, I just received a response from Michael Sheehan regarding your car and the whole headrest issue. He dosn't know about the originality or whether or not brackets were standard on all cars but he did provide me with a DETAILED history on you car, including a message to him from the person you purchased the car from questioning the car's value. I would rather not post the entire history here, so I will e-mail it to you. It doesn't appear that the car was ever RHD. It was originally sold new here in the US. Bill, I remember the first time I read the Hicks book. It was frustrating due to all of the misinformation and incorrectly captioned photos. Rob, Maybe I recorded it as a photo when it was only a mention. I try to keep track of all of the cars each time I receive a new issue but it is a lot of work and I know I've made plenty of mistakes. I can't imagine what I've done with that issue, though. Wayne | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2447 Registered: 12-2000 |
I couldn't find a pic of it in #54, but it does list it as attending the 1989 FCA meet in Georgia. 1956 250 GT LWB Berlinetta (TdF) 0563 Richard Gent | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 108 Registered: 4-2002 |
Wayne, You are absolutely correct about the misleading captions in the Hicks Book. He also shows a 250 PF Coupe and says it is a Boano Ellana. I realized that the car I noted is a TDF shortly after posting and had to go back and review. I guess it is just a poorly edited book, but it does have some good stuff in there. I don't have a scanner, but will try to use my wifes. I do have that Cavallino issue, and will take a look. Bill | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 383 Registered: 8-2002 |
Greg, That's interesting! I've really got to go right now (have to go to work!) but I will see what I can come up with later. Ciao for now! | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 382 Registered: 8-2002 |
Bill, I don't have the Curami book (can you scan and e-mail me the pic, if you have a scanner and if it's not too much trouble)? As for the car in the Hicks book, that is s/n 0563 GT. Since those photos, the car has been completely restored and has participated (and won awards) in several concours events. I will try to find a photo of the car in its current, award-winning configuration that will show if it still has the headrest. According to my records, a photo of this car appears in Cavallino #54. Unfortunately, that exact issue is now missing from my collection or has been misplaced. Can anyone else check it out? Rob? By the way, the wording in the Hicks book is misleading. The car is not a Boano. It is a 250 GT TdF, designed by PF and built by Scaglietti. It had nothing to do with Boano. | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
New member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 27 Registered: 2-2002 |
Wayne-You listed chassis #1977 as RHD, which is my chassis number. I tried to get my build sheet from Ferrari Owners Site but it said that service was unavailable. Anywhere else to find it? Thanks, Greg | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 381 Registered: 8-2002 |
Greg, Thanks. Found pics of both. Good example of why one should not listen to all the hype. Both cars are presented in largely popular and relatively high-volume books. Go figure. The strange thing is that the car in my copy of the Lehbrink & Schlegelmilch book (eight photos spread over pages 122-127) definitely appears to be black/black with red carpet and not a hint of the deep maroon you mentioned. Though I couldn't find my copy of the Eaton book, I looked through "The Complete Ferrari" by Roger Hicks and found the same red RHD coupe on page 84. Both have license plates fully visible which should, hopefully, allow me to pin down which chassis numbers they are. The chassis numbers of the 12 right hand drive cars are supposed to be as follows: 0841, 1001, 1081, 1083, 1251, 1417, 1437, 1675, 1677, 1725, 1973 and 1977. Actually, I've never really thought about checking them out, but It would probably be a fairly simple task to locate the current owners of these cars and obtain photographs or at least confirm that they are RHD. Anyway, that's a project for another day. I've too much on my plate right now as it is. If anybody else cares to pursue this, let me know and I'll point you in the right direction. Anyway, thanks Greg. Wayne | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 107 Registered: 4-2002 |
Greg, I am curious, do your Headrest Brackets that go into the slots on the seat look like the one in Sheehans car? | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 106 Registered: 4-2002 |
Wayne and Greg, I was in error when I mentioned the Dean Batchelor book. That is not where I saw the other headrest. If you have the 50 Years of Ferrari book by Andrea Curami look on page #33. If you look closely you will see a Headrest on the passenger side. Another note of interest is page #80-#81 in The Complete Ferrari book by Roger Hicks. You will see what appears to be a Headrest on the passenger side of a blue Boanno 250GT. It is not rouded like the other two we have seen. I beleive that every 250PF in original condition that I have ever seen has these brackets on the passenger seat. Could the ones that don't have, been redone, and being that the Headrest itself is so rare only a couple exist that we know of, they just removed the brackets prior to installing new leather on the seats? Wouldn't a concourse judge know if there was a Headrest available for at least the PF coupe, and if that is true wouldn't points be taken off of a car that had the brackets removed? I don't know and am asking. Also if the headrest was not a factory item on these cars, then what in the hell is the bracket actually for. And did just a few enterprising owners fabricate the thing? As we all know there are many srange quirks to these cars. For example I once visited an enthusiast in Californis that had six PF coup's. While every one of them had these seat brackets, two of them had Fiberglass trunk lids. I have also seen at least one PF Coupe with a air scoop on the hood. Could it be that years ago as parts were scarce, donor cars were used for parts, and seats, hoods, etc were swapped from car to car? My 250PF has Lucas Racing Distributors that are original. There is one Cal Spyder, and one Super America that I know of with this distributor. I have also talked to owners that had know idea that there is a canvas roll up shroud on the radiator. Some people have the knurled handle to activate it, and no shroud to activate. I have also seen the reverse. Did the factory just run out and know body cared? These are the the little things that I think make these cars so interesting. | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
New member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 26 Registered: 2-2002 |
Wayne-To respond to your comment about right hand drive PF's, I found two pics. The first one from "Ferrari" by Lehbrink and Schlegelmilch page 123. Very nice deep maroon. Also, a red one in "The Complete Ferrari" by Eaton page 109. Not the best color for this Ferrari. No headreasts on either of these nor in any other book I have. | ||
| DONALD GRIESDALE (Griesdale)
Junior Member Username: Griesdale Post Number: 52 Registered: 11-2001 |
This one of the most interesting threads that I have seen on FerrariChat for a long time! Who says that there is little interest in the older F-cars? I groaned this morning when I logged on to this site and read a thread asking how to wash and wax a Ferrari!!! Hello Peter. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2096 Registered: 12-2000 |
Hubert O.: "...1958 Abarth 750 GT Zagato "Double Bubble" Competition Berlinetta both listed under 'classic's/competition', look nice for what they are." I am an unofficial Abarth expert and can say that this car is FAR from original. I prefer one that doesn't have all of that scoops and vents on the front (a poor copy of an Abarth-Simca 2000 Corsa, even nicknamed "brutto" (ugly) by its creator Mario Colucci). Looks tacky. What I can tell you that is some serious bit of kit in the enginebay and a car like this would eat up a 328 anyday... Don't even believe Abarth serial numbers. The production cars like this 750 GT rarely had been documented and the pop-rivets holding the S/N plate is a dead give-away (they used hex-head, shouldered, slot screws). It would be a fun car if you can get it cheap... | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 380 Registered: 8-2002 |
Bill, First, for clarification, when you referred to the "Headrest Feature," I assumed you were referring to a feature that included a headrest, like on the car we are talking about here. Certainly "most" 250 series cars do not have a headrest. As for the brackets: I do see the PF Coupe on Sheehan's site with the headrest and, in fact, that is actually where I had seen it before. The brackets seem to be on the top edge of the passenger seat. Is that correct? Though I have had my head in several PF Coupes, I have never been aware of the brakets. I also seem to have never photographed the top edge of the passenger seat of any PF Coupe I've been fortunate enough to examine closely. I'll take your word that the brackets are a standard feature of that model. I am certain, however, that none of the 250 Cabs (Series I or II), Cal Spyders (LWB or SWB), or Lussos I've inspected had such brackets (or headrests, for that matter). I've tried locating any photos I've taken of Europas or GTEs that would show such brackets but can find none. What other models in the 250 series have these that you are aware of? By the way, I cannot find the photo of a PF Coupe with the headrest in Batchelor's "Illustrated Ferrari Buyer's Guide." I have the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th editions and all appear to have the same photos in Chapter 6 on the 250 GT PF Coupe (pgs 36-39). What page did you see it on? Here is the pic of the headrest and brackets from Sheehan's site:  | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 105 Registered: 4-2002 |
Wayne, Take a look at any 250 series car, especially the 250PF Coupe. You will see that the passenger seat has two chrome slots that accept the headrest assembly. Only the passenger seat has this accessory. If you view Michael Sheehans site, you will se a PF Coupe with the passenger Headrest intact. Also check out a copy of the Illistrated Ferrari Buyers guide. You will see under the section for the 250 PF Coupe, a white car the also shows the headrest in the car. Wayne, the fact of the matter is that the actual headrest itself appears to be very scarce. I am not an athority on these cars but I do know of three cars including the one shown in this link to actually be sporting the headrest. Also my car and every other PF Coupe I have seen, (about 20 cars ) all have the same mounting hardware. I have also seen many other 250 Series cars with the chrome slotted hardware mounted on the passenger seat. Furthermore, I consider it a sign of inacurate restoration , or at least a red flag, when I see a car of this vintage without the chrome brackets on the passenger seat! | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 378 Registered: 8-2002 |
Bill, "Most 250 Series cars have the Headrest Feature for the passenger seats only." I would have to argue that MOST 250 Series cars don't have the "Headrest Feature" at all. In fact, I can't recall ever seeing a Europa, Europa GT, Boano, Ellena, Series I Cab, Series II Cab, Cal Spyder (LWB or SWB), LWB Berlinetta, SWB Berlinetta, GTE or Lusso with the "Headrest Feature." I only recall seeing one other PF Coupe with a passenger-side headrest (and that could have been this same car as I can't remember where it was that I saw it) so I can't understand why you would think that most of these cars had this feature. As for the right hand drive theory, that's not likely. Supposedly 12 of the 353 PF Coupes were built with right hand drive (I don't remember ever seeing one). Being built in such small numbers, it's highly unlikely that any part of the other 341 cars would have been designed with those 12 cars in mind. Let me ask this: Does anybody out there have a photo of another PF Coupe with a headrest? I am really curious as to whether this was ordered by the original owner, offered as a (RARELY chosen) option, or installed after the fact. BTW, if anybody has any photos (no Photoshop, please) of any of the other 250 series cars I mentioned with such a headrest, I'd be interested in seeing those as well. | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 104 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ross, Most 250 Series cars have the Headrest Feature for the passenger seats only. My personal thoughts are that either it was designed with the lady in mind, or all seats were made for right hand drive, and swapped for US cars. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 430 Registered: 3-2002 |
don't know anything about the car but thought i would add my 2 cts about the headrest....could it be possible that the seat that has the headrest was originally on the drivers side, and was simply switched around at a later date to satisfy the passenger....and then never got put back on the correct side? | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2432 Registered: 12-2000 |
 | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1418 Registered: 9-2001 |
Greg, I believe the FCA concours rules allow for the installation of safety equipment such as seat belts amd fire extinguishers. | ||
| Mark (Markg)
Member Username: Markg Post Number: 287 Registered: 2-2001 |
Gave my buddie's 8 year old son and his fellow 8 year buds a ride in my '82 GTSi - one of the little munchins kept exclaiming how neat this 'old' Ferrari was.... p.s. had a chance to buy a 250GT like Greg's back in late 70's for $5500 - couldn't find a bank anywhere to lend me the money ("no blue book - bad investmant"). I cancelled my bank accounts and have been using a credit union ever since! | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
New member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 23 Registered: 2-2002 |
Sorry to monopolize this thread but I would appreciate any comments on installing seatbelts. I saw some 4 point belts from Andover that look promising. Does installation compromise its originality/value? Thanks, Greg | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 373 Registered: 8-2002 |
Greg & Horsefly, Don't be alarmed by the mixed info. It happens all the time. The sale in 1990 could've been reported incorrectly. The number plate, however, should be riveted and not screwed on. Still, it was probably removed by an amateur doing a repaint and not by anyone with malicious intent. Greg, it looks like a beautiful car. You should try to get hold of the original build sheet to substantiate the headrest issue. Wayne | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
New member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 22 Registered: 2-2002 |
Bill-The numbers do match with the engine and chassis. I will be glad to give you the measuremnets of the headreast next week when I get the car back from NOrwoods. It seems odd they only put it on the passenger side but I too have seen pictures of this and it appears correct. The luggage straps are original too...didn't see these in the Symbolic car. | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 103 Registered: 4-2002 |
Greg, By the way, does the screw applied ID Plate match the engine, and other serial numbers. | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 102 Registered: 4-2002 |
Greg 512TR, Great Galloping God, your car not only has the original looking luggage straps in the back, it also has the very rare passenger seat headrest! These headrests were used on I believe most 250 series cars including the 250 Europa, the Boanno cars, 250 Cal. Spider, 250 Cab. ( Someone please correct me if I am in error ) I have only seen the actual headrest on a car at Michael Shehanns, and in an old Prancing Horse magazine. I must get specifications to have one made. Now that you know how rare it is will you sell it? HAR HAR Can I get in touch with you for possible measurements etc. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 257 Registered: 1-2002 |
whart, About that 250, I didn't spot it when I looked at the 330, wonder where it is? Speaking of symbolic they've got two vintage racers available, both seem reasonable, relativly, but neither have that 'open-top-windscreen-bug-in the teeth' roadster layout; both are coupes; 1959 Alfa Romeo Guilietta Sprint Veloce Chassis No. 07502 the other, is the 1958 Abarth 750 GT Zagato "Double Bubble" Competition Berlinetta both listed under 'classic's/competition', look nice for what they are. Also, FNA opened a dealership a couple blocks from symbolic and have a red 550b in stock; I never saw on in the flesh, it's amazing how different they look from a 'standard' 550. Asking price: $375k w/ a few thousand miles on it. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 513 Registered: 2-2002 |
Since your earlier post mentioned that you liked the older 2+2s I thought you might be interested. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 540 Registered: 12-2001 |
No, why? That be the Queen Motha, very continent mashing, but a large barge for moi. Do you want it checked out? This guy really seems to specialize in older Astons, had a cut Daytona last year that my expert friend told me to pass on; don't really know his reputation. Why? | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 512 Registered: 2-2002 |
whart: Have you seen this 365 2+2? http://www2.thecarexperience.com/pls/carexp/car_exp.car_page?p_car_id=6983 | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
New member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 21 Registered: 2-2002 |
Rob-Thanks for the report...you can take it for spin soon. As far as the vin tag, I would be very surprised if it is not original, not sure if it would have been removed during repainting. The old cars were hand made by a bunch of communists and are rough around the edges. The dip stick is amazing in how rugged it looks. I doubt Enzo cared too much about the cosmetics of putting a vin tag on...probably just an afterthought. The copper hammer for the knock-offs looks like its nailed everything EXCEPT Maddonna.  | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2405 Registered: 12-2000 |
I just went to see the car, but my camera battery is dead, so no pics until tomorrow. It's a really good car in my book. It's not a concours car, but I heard the engine is good and the paint and cosmetics are good. I'm jealous, a concours PF sells for $100k+. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 530 Registered: 10-2001 |
Horsefly is correct. That vin tag has been screwed more times than Madonna. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 299 Registered: 5-2002 |
Sounds like you guys are getting dangerously close to finding out something that you don't want to know. Like the guy on the other thread looking to see if his 512 was ever EPA/DOT certified. Greg, I noticed on the VIN tag photo that the tag is held on with screws. Is this standard for old Ferraris to have VIN tags held on with screws? Among Corvettes, VIN tags were held on with rivets starting in 1963. Any VIN tag held on with screws is always a RED FLAG when I look at a car. I found a 1973 Mustang convertible in a salvage yard and thought I had found a pretty good deal until I saw the VIN tag. It was screwed on. RED FLAG! | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
New member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 20 Registered: 2-2002 |
Thanks Wayne- Interesting....the history I have on the car is that it was owned by Dr. John Bukovinik of Waite Hill OH since 6/23/1973 with 37,970 kilometers. That is the estate I purchased it from. Records substantiate this ownership. Dr. Bukovnik purchased it from Donald W. Steele of Gates Mill OH. Mr. Steel had purchased it two years prior from the original owner Dr. George Kellner who bought it while in the military in Europe. Hmmm..maybe he bought it from "Pulle" in France. The color seems like it could match and it is the 128F engine but the sale in 1977 does not match up. Interesting...  | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 371 Registered: 8-2002 |
Greg, Records indicate your car as being built in 1960 (Pinin Farina job# 29489) but can't be sure of the month. It was originally sold to a customer by the name of "Pulle" in France and was Grigio Metalizzato/Nero and with a type 128F (outside plug) engine. I can't find any other history on 1977 GT until June of 1990, when it was sold to Doug Adamian of Ft. Meyers, FL for $225,000 (those were the days) with 37,760km on the odometer. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2403 Registered: 12-2000 |
There's probably 50 to 100 of these classic Ferraris in the DFW area, but most are in collections and not driven very much and thus you never see them. In 6 years living in Dallas, I've only seen one classic Ferrari on the road. The others were shows or at FOD/Norwoods. | ||
| Ken Thomas (Future328driver)
Junior Member Username: Future328driver Post Number: 208 Registered: 12-2001 |
Greg - Beauiful car. Rob - Remember at the last karting event I told you that I saw a silver 330GTC near Hillcrest and NW Highway. Well, I am guessing that I was wrong about the make. I think it was Greg's car that I saw. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2402 Registered: 12-2000 |
Greg, I knew you had talked about a 330 GTC or older Ferrari. Congrats congrats congrats. Based on my budget in 3 years, I'll either get a 250 GTE/330 2+2 or 250 Boano/250 PF/330 GTC. I'm going over to Norwoods this afternoon! Obviously the PF is one of my favorite "obtainable" classic Ferraris. We have to meet up again. Everyone knows how crazy I am about Ferraris, but the rarity and history of the older ones take me to even another level. | ||
| joe saldana (Ironjoe)
Junior Member Username: Ironjoe Post Number: 98 Registered: 12-2001 |
THE 246 Dino is so beautiful, and also do-able, my all time favorite is the 166 mm Barchetta,1900 lbs of fun.The 250 GT SWB BERLINETTA,FINE-ART.The 250 GT SWB CAL-SPYDER just lay a gorgeous women along side and photograph .... NOTE THE LINES ....... | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
New member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 27 Registered: 3-2002 |
Greg, based on that serial number I will go out on a limb and say the production date should be June/July 1960 for your car. In the old days sometimes cars got built out of sequence for various reasons so I would not want to say this is a guarantee, but I think that your number does fit in this timeline. | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
New member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 19 Registered: 2-2002 |
I am wondering what year my car (chassis #1977GT) was built. The title says 1961 but I have seen cars with higher serial numbers listed as 1960 models. Can anybody point me in a direction to find out? BTW, Wayne, the Dino looks great. Nice color combo. | ||
| william speer (Wspeer)
Junior Member Username: Wspeer Post Number: 51 Registered: 8-2002 |
greg, here's a picture of my 1974 dino gts.  | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
New member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 26 Registered: 3-2002 |
L. Wayne, Glad to see you jump in on this topic. I figured this was right up your alley. I saw the Boy on A Dolphin car in Indianapolis a number of years back. At that time it was for sale for $55,000. I thought that was all the money in the world. Now I would try to put it on my Visa if I had the chance. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 538 Registered: 12-2001 |
Hey, Hugh: I was referring to the 250 pf coupe on Symbolic's site, which as i remember, was a lite metallic blue. Don't remember the 2+2. On my own search, my friend has located an alleged "scaglietti-cut" daytona; now the question is getting the seller to behave as one. (I am also intrigued by the idea of a restored, older Morgan, set up for racing, but streetable, just for that bugs in the teeth experience. Not a substitute for a ferrari, but as an addition to the stable. Also, there are times when i don't want to be driving a big GT, but would like something small and punchy. So that's where i'm at.) L Wayne: anybody? Know about Morgans? Posted on the O/T side of the board and apart from Martin, got bubkus. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 369 Registered: 8-2002 |
Joel, Re: 0336 AL, no such car. You must've remembered the s/n incorrectly. 0336 MM is a 3-liter 250 Mille Miglia Vignale Spyder. Possibly the car you're remembering was either: 0337 AL, Vignale-bodied 375 America (4.5 liter) coupe (1954 Turin Salon show car). The car had a Chevy engine and Olds transmission in it in 1957, you probably would've noticed that. It has since been reunited with its original drivetrain and was recently at the Concorso Italiano in Carmel, CA (on the top of Tom Shaughnessey's vintage transporter). Or more likely 0339 AL. This is a standard Pinin Farina 375 America coupe. It appeared in the film "Boy On a Dolphin" with Alan Ladd and Sophia Loren in 1957, the same year as your memorable ride. Here's a pic of 0339 AL:  | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
New member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 18 Registered: 2-2002 |
An interesting thought is that even though 350 were produced many have been used as donor cars for rebody projects and also for parts cars for their more expensive sisters. Wonder how many are really left. BTW, if anyone comes across a 250 tool kit mine was stolen before the car got to me.   | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 255 Registered: 1-2002 |
whart, I went and looked that the 330 2+2 you mention; REALLY clean car, not a pebble beach car, but would be an excellent driver car. Asking price was $79K, which to me seemed high as most other 300 2+2's I've seen listed were in the mid 50's, some dipping into the 40's; only other examples that I've seen priced so high were on Sheenan's site, those; however, were show car quality. How's the hunt for your own classic going? | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
New member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 25 Registered: 3-2002 |
Wm, you are right in saying that the PF is one of the last "affordable" older Ferraris. I think that part of the reason is that 350 were built which was really mass production for Ferrari at the time compared to the previous models. The car was built to be a cruiser, not a competition model and therefore had less appeal to a certain segment of the market in the old days. It is definitely a comfortable car to drive if you remember that it is 40 years old. Way back when I owned the alleged 1960 NY Auto Show PF coupe and was able to drive it regularly for 5 years with nothing but routine maintenance. The resonance at 4000 rpm and the combination of timing chains, weber induction, and exhaust note is something that I will never forget. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 536 Registered: 12-2001 |
As far as "classic" ferraris go, the 250 pf coupe has to be one of the few remaining "bargains"; boano/ellena coupes seem to have gone thru the roof in the last few years, and while i love the funkiness of the old 2+2's, the two seaters are more, well, you know... There is what at least appears to be an immaculate one at Symbolic, on their web page, but, gee, every one of the cars on their page looks virginal. | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 100 Registered: 4-2002 |
Greg512TR, Your PF looks great. I'd love to see some shots of the interior. Mine is a 1959, inside plug original condition ( A little ratty ) 1959 Frankfurt show car, but I love to drive it. Bill | ||
| Joel Belser (Driver)
New member Username: Driver Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2002 |
You have to understand the old Ferraris in the context of their time. My first ride in a Ferrari was in 1957...a 4.5 coupe, 0336AL. There were no other cars in NY even remotely like it. There was an even greater mystique then...far fewer Ferraris around, and no imitators. | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
New member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 17 Registered: 2-2002 |
William- I found out about the car from a broker on the Ferrari List. He just sent out an e-mail and I bit. I dealt directly with the widow and her son for the most part. Easy commission for him. Let me know when you want to trade for the Dino . Greg | ||
| Jim E (Jimpo1)
Member Username: Jimpo1 Post Number: 845 Registered: 7-2001 |
Hey Greg, if I run over to Norwoods can I sit in your car? I've always loved the 250. You need to join us at some local events. We'll bring towels to wipe the drool off your car. | ||
| william speer (Wspeer)
New member Username: Wspeer Post Number: 50 Registered: 8-2002 |
greg, howard has a tendency to note all of a cars "impediments".a good thing when buying a car from him, a bad thing when selling one. the great thing is that he is very consistent. i have found him great to deal with. as i said, i thought howard was being overly critical in describing the cars condition. i agree the car would look better with cleaned up wheels, but i think you should keep it as original as you can. how did you find the car? | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2750 Registered: 2-2001 |
I'm slowly becoming familiar with them hands on, they're just so cool it's ridiculous. I don't know nearly enough yet, but I know enough that I should be interested in learning more. At work we have like a 250GT or something along those lines having a body hand beat out for it. It's absolutely amazing to check back there every couple of days and look at the progress with no body on it and the panels laying around the shop. I stick to the mechanic stuff, in which they are equally as cool. Some of those old cars were really well made from a mechanical standpoint. Alright, I have no monumental addition to this post, just that I really appreciate them though. | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
New member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 16 Registered: 2-2002 |
William-Howard admitted he has always been biased against the 250 PF as he owned a Lusso at the time the PF came out. I agree that in comparison to the Lusso the PF Coupe is lacking but so are 99% of the other cars out there too. I do remember that conversation when you were there...what a small Ferrari world it is. I found the car to be in better shape than what I expected after I heard Howard comments. The carpets, leather, and engine is all original. Aside from the expense to restore (Sheehan's article in SCM lists $200k) I plan on cleaning it up and keeping it original. As the saying goes, it can only be original once! I will probably have the wheels redone though.  | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 254 Registered: 1-2002 |
I don't know about maintenance costs being as stratospheric as they are made out to be. But, it would depend on what condition the car you have is in, if your definition of a vintage Ferrari is a pebble beach quality car where you want everything on it to be factual, acurate, and expensive, then that is the high bar. But, if you've got a 'driver', than maybe there wouldn't be any agonizing of using 'generic' parts on the car, if they offer the same quality and reliability. | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
New member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 24 Registered: 3-2002 |
Greg, The color on your PF Coupe is great. The older Pininfarina designs look so good in darker, more subdued colors. The 250 engines are pretty bulletproof. I drove one most of one summer a long time ago with a leaking head gasket and even though the water temp got a little high the oil temp never got high at all. | ||
| Kirk Stevenson (Miuraguy)
New member Username: Miuraguy Post Number: 7 Registered: 5-2002 |
Greg, I love the lines on your PF coupe. While I've heard the maintenance can be expensive on older cars (ie: $14k for a new Daytona exhaust system), I think that most of the older F cars are pretty reliable...and don't need cam belts changed! | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 253 Registered: 1-2002 |
Lately, I've been sifting through some of the literature surrounding the older Ferrari's; namely, the 330GTC's, the 250 coupes, and the 330 America's; I really like the subdued look to them, and the v12 makes them all more appealing. Not to mention that most of the old sohc v12's are chain driven, eliminating one of the more painful maintenance expenses found on modern cars. | ||
| william speer (Wspeer)
New member Username: Wspeer Post Number: 49 Registered: 8-2002 |
greg, i was standing next to howard when he called you a told you he received the car. although he thought the color was "terrible", i disagreed that the color was actually very flattering to the car. i don't know if you remember that conversation. howard was a bit harsh in describing the condition of the interior as "dry-rotted"- but i think it simply adds patina to the car. all in all, i think it is a very nice car. i would not redo the interior or anything else. i was curious about the headrest on the passenger seat and one having not been installed on the drivers seat. the hardware and leather looked as though it was possibly original, or at the very least done a long time ago. how did you find the car? | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
New member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 15 Registered: 2-2002 |
Yes William, the car was at Memorial 1 in Houston. I had it serviced there. The transport company was supposed to ship it back but did not so I decided to try to drive it the 200 miles (it had gone only 195 the past 18 years). I was cruising along at 120 KPH on 15 year old tires in the rain (not real smart I know) and did great for 100 miles. Fun to drive, great sound. It started running rough, lost some power so I pulled over and had it towed the last 100 miles to Norwoods where it is now. Not sure what happened yet other than the top radiater hose had leaked. The gauges were still normal so I don't think it overheated. I purchased it out of an estate sale from Cleveland. As far as the color Wilis, its a dark gunmetal grey. Its supposed to be original color but I have no idea what the official term is.  | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 526 Registered: 10-2001 |
Any 30 year old or older exotic has much higher maintainence costs than a newer car. Things break a lot and cost mucho $ to fix more often than not. Ask me how I know. | ||
| william speer (Wspeer)
New member Username: Wspeer Post Number: 48 Registered: 8-2002 |
greg, was the car you just bought in houston recently? | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1398 Registered: 9-2001 |
Horsefly, you're correct that a lot of the older cars are expensive to buy, but not all. You can buy a lot of 1960s era cars for less than $100k which if less than 1/2 the price of the 456, 575 and most 360s. And, the older cars are less expensive to maintain than the newer cars, except for interior parts which can be hard to find. I remember a 15k service on my 330GTC was around $500.00 or so. | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 655 Registered: 5-2002 |
William.What do you want to know.Ask me anything. | ||
| Joseph (Mojo)
New member Username: Mojo Post Number: 43 Registered: 9-2002 |
Horsefly Don't forget the crager wheels, and dice hanging from the mirror. That would make your classic ferrari. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 294 Registered: 5-2002 |
Unfortunately, it really doesn't do too much good to be really interested in the older Ferraris unless you have stacks of older MONEY! Most of the really cool older cars were very limited in production and have high six figure prices these days. Who except the very wealthy can afford them? And only the very wealthy could afford the insurance to actually drive them. The average guy can only become a text book expert on the older Ferraris. I would love to have a 250LM, but I would have to convert it to left hand drive and drop in a Chevy V8 instead of messing with an expensive V12 rebuild. (Flame away!) | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 969 Registered: 8-2001 |
Greg, what is the color on your 250GT PF coupe? Dark grey? Look like it has a bit of tint in it (or from sunlight?). Some writers say the 250GT PF coupe look boring. I don't agree at all. It's a very clean and elegant design to me. What's it like to drive one? | ||
| Don Vollum (Donv)
New member Username: Donv Post Number: 27 Registered: 1-2002 |
I love the older cars. And, I think the new ones are pretty cool, too. I wouldn't mind having a Daytona and a 550! For the money, however, I prefer the older cars. You can get a very nice Daytona for less than almost any 550 or 360. Of course, the upkeep is more, but relative to the cost of the car it's not that bad if you do your homework. | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
New member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 14 Registered: 2-2002 |
Here is a pic.  | ||
| Greg (Greg512tr)
New member Username: Greg512tr Post Number: 13 Registered: 2-2002 |
It wasn't untill I had owned 4 different modern Ferraris did I develop an interest in an older model. I thought about getting a 330 2+2 but just purchased a '61 PF Coupe. It does not scream "Ferrari" but I feel like I am driving a bit of history. The car has 26,000 miles on it and is unrestored (except for new paint in '77). Now deciding how to put seat belts in it. | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 966 Registered: 8-2001 |
You know, I've heard disparaging remarks (whether in jest or serious) about new Ferrari guys from people with "classic" Ferraris before. It's funny that none of the "new model" owners ever dis the classic owners. I think you "old school" guys are totally wrong about us. I've been a Ferrari fan since 1976. Before I bought my 360, I've tried to learn as much as I can about every model in the illustrious history of Ferrari (still learning). First one I saw with my own eyes was a Daytona back in 1977. I still want to own one of those some day. Whenever I see a 250 or 166 series car, I wonder what it would be like to drive one of those beautiful works of art. So why do I drive a 360 instead of a Daytona? New technology and style, greater performance, comfort, relatively reliable, lower maintenance cost, and no outrageous restoration costs. Just to name a few reasons. If I got money flowing out of my ears, I might consider the daytona or a 250 series car. Being realistic with my current situation, a 360 fits me better than the classics for now. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2387 Registered: 12-2000 |
My next Ferrari will be pre 70's. | ||
| Kevin Horner (Boz)
New member Username: Boz Post Number: 22 Registered: 8-2002 |
I'm only 23 so I was a little late getting into the mix. I've been saying a lot that I should have been born 50 years earlier. Back in the days of Eames, Horowitz, Saarinen, and Enzo when they were in their prime. I love not only the cars, but the history and the legacy. Unfortunately, I still know very little about older Ferraris (pre-308)--I couldn't tell a whatever from a whatever. I'm trying, though... really. But I do know that I love a 250 GT California. I also enjoy the new cars as they, in my opinion, still continue the legacy of racing Ferrari is known for. If they build a truck, though, I will be highly disappointed. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 533 Registered: 12-2001 |
Back in the early 70's, when i was driving a FIAT 124 sport coupe, i knew a guy who had half a dozen old ferraris in his garage/barn out in the country. The cars were still expensive then, but nowhere near the stratospheric prices of the late 80's and today. He would buy old, dented, beat up racing cars, 250 "one-offs" and other unwanted and unloved cars, work on them, and eventually sell them at a profit. The guy was a collector/extrordinaire, and was into everything from pre-CBS fender amps to china.When i first got into the idea of buying a ferrari in the 90's, i called him. He said he was now only interested in the really early cars, and had gotten out of the market when the japanese economy was peaking, having sold his cars to japanese enthusiasts. I still run across his name in old registers of owners and he had some marvelous cars. When i went ferrari shopping for myself, i gave into buying a newer car, partly for cost reasons, and also out of concern for driveability/reliability. I nonetheless dove into everything i could get my hands on, and have amassed a fair library of books. I made it to the Petersen for their 50 year retrospective,love seeing the older cars at shows, and at the track and will probably own an older ferrari or two before i'm done. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 503 Registered: 2-2002 |
I just love cars. Old, new, doesn't matter. I know I'll upset a lot of people when I say this--and that's not my intention--but I have a difficult time getting excited about 308s and Mondials. No Tom Selleck envy here. Give me a Daytona or a Dino any day. | ||
| William Huber (Solipsist)
Member Username: Solipsist Post Number: 418 Registered: 9-2001 |
The older cars is what fascinates me about Ferrari. The designs in the 50's & 60's were years ahead of anyone else. What about the racers of Le Mans? The 1967 330 P4 is the possibly most beautiful Ferrari ever constructed. Here's my favorites: 500 TR 1962 GTO 250 California Spyder 1966 275 SWB 1967 330 GTC 1972 365 GTB/4 Daytona 206 Dino 1984 288 GTO 1967 330 P4 The NART cars! more to come.......  (If only my garage was like this) | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 325 Registered: 5-2001 |
The 308's are older cars now. Back in 84 I knew a Dr. who drove a 330 GTS. I thought of it as an "older Ferrari" then. It was actually 18 years old. My 308 will be 19 on 28 Jan 03. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 408 Registered: 3-2002 |
i love the older cars and have tried to read and learn about them; they are the basis of the legend so i think any true afficionado of the marque needs to be able to identify and converse intelligently about the full range, as well as he can. for me its a matter of pride to know more about the history of these machines. on the other hand i am caught in a catch 22 - the older ones that i can presently afford, i wouldn't want; and the ones i want, i can't afford. my reason for not 'wanting' the affordable old ones has more to do with the hassle and cost of housing and maintaining them than anything else; the idea being that if i had the money for the expensive ones i would also be able to afford upkeep. i must say that i do love the recent cars more because the function has finally caught up to form. in other words, they look the biz and the new ones work as well and perform like you expect them to (for the most part). | ||
| Modified348ts (Modman)
Member Username: Modman Post Number: 390 Registered: 11-2001 |
Just to add, I'm not saying I hate old cars, just wouldn't own one. I like to see them just to think of how it was like back in the days. I like antiques just for thinking how it was back in the days also.. I like old people because they are funny talkin of back in the days... | ||
| Modified348ts (Modman)
Member Username: Modman Post Number: 389 Registered: 11-2001 |
Don't care for older cars for they do nothing for me, I want a car that can work for me, I love modern mechanical wonders that do good and not pollute the air, LOL.. A car is disposable and you can't take it with you when you die so why bother spending big bucks on old vintage cars, hey, it's just my opinion and don't care for anyone elses.... | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
New member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 23 Registered: 3-2002 |
William, I can't get too excited by the new models. I know that they are technical marvels but they seem almost too perfect. I think that there is a lot to be said for an older car that makes a lot of noises and has a lot of different mechanical smells to it. They do have their own personalities. I feel like I am really connected to the history of Ferrari when I am driving a vintage car. It is a lot more exciting to me to be driving at highway speeds in an older model which really feels fast rather than in a new car at 130 mph that feels like I am only going 50 mph. It is a rare sight to see an older Ferrari at the events anymore. Where are they all? I remember when the 308s were parked together in the corner at the events. They were new and all looked the same. Now many people consider them vintage models. There is so much history and there were so many different, beautiful cars built in the old V-12 days. New enthusiasts are missing out on a major part of why Ferrari is where it is today by not getting familiar with the older cars. | ||
| william speer (Wspeer)
New member Username: Wspeer Post Number: 47 Registered: 8-2002 |
it amazes me how many people can not even identif an older ferrari. just because you own a 360 doesn't manke you a ferrari historian. as far as i am concearned, the older cars are what ferrari is about. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 264 Registered: 8-2002 |
It's like anything. When you get a new girlfriend, you only want to be the only guy she has been with, you don't want to hear where she's been. You stick with what is new. | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 624 Registered: 10-2001 |
...or a 275/4 cam! | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 623 Registered: 10-2001 |
I love the older Ferraris more than the new ones and I'm only 30. Give me a Daytona anyday! My favorite though has to be the 250 California spider SWB, just a drop dead gorgeous car! If I can't get one of those I'll take a Lusso! | ||
| william speer (Wspeer)
New member Username: Wspeer Post Number: 46 Registered: 8-2002 |
maybe i am biased, but i love the older cars and am constantly amazed at how little the "ferrari afficianado" know about the older cars. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 262 Registered: 8-2002 |
I have start to get an intrest in older cars. Mainly the ones from the 60's and 70's. I use to only like the 328's on up. Now I have a 78 308 and a 82 BBi. I really like and enjoy reading and looking at the 250 cars from the 60's like the 250LM and the California's. It is sad to think now that no one really knows the history of the Dino. (Enzo's son and the car Enzo credited him with designing the engine,even though he did not really care about him until he died, not Fred's pet). | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Junior Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 184 Registered: 3-2002 |
I can say that this website certainly has turned me on to the older cars. I think you will find a great deal of people on this site know all about the older F-cars. This is probably due to the fact that it takes a certain type of car nut to go online and blab endlessly about these damn cars. Wait a minute.....it is all becoming clear........ | ||
| Michael Yip (Mightyslash)
Junior Member Username: Mightyslash Post Number: 91 Registered: 4-2002 |
I'm not a fan of older ferraris, so I don't know much about them... | ||
| william speer (Wspeer)
New member Username: Wspeer Post Number: 45 Registered: 8-2002 |
it has been my experience from recent ferrari club of america events and through postings here, that most people don't know about older ferrari cars - hence the dino vs. lambo postings. how many people here can honestly say that they are familar with the older ferrari cars? |