| Author | Message | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 259 Registered: 1-2002 |
BretM, My point is that a street 360/550 has a lot more in common w/ any of it's racing analogs than any of the NASCAR racers; also, to downgrade the 'paper' 360 b/c it wont last in that monster mash the nascar people call a race is grasping at straws, most race cars aren't built to demolish other race cars, they are meant to win races. As far as factory backing in NASCAR, what about ROUSH supplying the majority of the motors, he's an outside source, and I would feign to argue that any of the motors actually being used have even a minute semblance to what is found at a dealership; at least w/ the F cars you can find a 360 at the dealer w/ the same motor, layout, tranny, etc. as the race car, w/ a NASCAR you get something vaguely resembling a street car, do they even make a 2 door taurus? Personally, I don't see the point of this debate; if its to underscore the grandure of NASCAR, or to pursue the bifucracation of sport car racing v. NASCAR by making comparisons b/w the platforms? NASCAR is NASCAR and ALMS/Sports car racing is what it is; I have a preference to the latter; I'm not realy intereted in comparing the two b/c the former doesn't arouse any curiousity in me, only maybe how its persisted for so long, but, all in good fun. Like the debates of 'senna v. schumi', 'prost v. mansell', and 'fangio v. everyone'. -hubert | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 315 Registered: 4-2002 |
My opinion is that if you time them on a road course, nearly anything would be faster than a nascar vehicle. Trans Am cars have lower lap times. Sometimes when they run the same track, an extra chicane is put in for the Trans Am cars. That way you don't get a direct comparison about the speed of the vehicles. The truth gets hidden from the public. If you bang them together, of course the tank wins. Going 150+ at Charlotte Motor Speedway is no big deal. Every year PCA Blueridge region has a driver's school there where we use the infield and nascar part. I come out of the infield at about 80, careful on the apron where it connects to the banking because you can crack your windshield due to car flex, full throttle through nascar 1 and 2. By the time I'm leaving nascar 2, I doing about 125. Then it's back straight time. I can hit over 150 on the back straight in a 4 cylinder (modified) Porsche. I slow for the banking because I am a little cautious. 125 through the banking is restful. Many go faster. If my suspension were not set up for road courses and street use, and if my right side wheels/springs differed from my left side, and if I did not have aluminum A-arms, I'd go considerably faster. So my opinion is that 150 at Charlotte is no big deal. FCA used to have a summer event at Rockingham. Same thing except a little trickier. The banking would go away before the nascar turn ended. Speeds were slower there. I would use my 328 with street tires. I still say nascar vehicles are among the slowest. I used to think that I was a pretty good driver when I drove my 328. The car I use now has much more power making the window of opportunity for a correct input less. I don't think I'm such a good driver anymore. The faster the car, the better the driver must be. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1411 Registered: 9-2001 |
NASCAR does seem to get slammed a lot my some sports car snobs who do not understand that type of racing. If you think NASCAR is easy, I suggest you register for one of the Richard Petty Driving experiences at your local NASCAR venue( www.1800bepetty.com ). I think you will find that it isn't as easy to handle a NASACAR around a banked oval as it looks on TV. Like most professionals, they make it look a lot easier than it is because they know what they're doing. FYI, while in the U.S.A. for the USGP M.Schmacher visited the NASCAR track in Dallas because he wanted to drive a NASCAR himself. He also stated that he would not want to race one though because he felt it was too dangerous going over 200mph that close to so many other cars and to a wall. Further, while NASCAR did get it's start from good ol boys running moonshine on Saturday night and racing on Sunday, times have changed just like they have in F1 racing. If you will read the history of F1 you will find it started with some unsavory charaters itself. While I prefer F1 and sports cars to NASCAR, I understand and respect why so many love NASCAR and respect the driver's abilities in that series. I drove one at Disney years ago and can tell you that at 160mph that oval looks mighty small and those turns feel mighty sharp. Try it yourself ! | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2758 Registered: 2-2001 |
btw, Hubert before this gets out of hand, this is all in good fun here I hope. I'm not angry or anything and I hope you're not, just a healthy debate. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2757 Registered: 2-2001 |
Does Ferrari race them or are they private run programs? NASCAR teams are factory backed, no Ferrari sports car is. THE ONLY THING FERRARI OFFICIALLY RACES IN IS F1. As far as an F1 shifter, my ATV has an F1 shifter than shares more in common with a 360, than a 360 does with a F1 car. Just cause both use buttons (or paddles) doesn't mean they are anything alike. The 360 Challenge isn't racing, it's a good way for the company to make a lot of money in exchance for some rich guys having fun. Let's not make it something it's not. The 360GT is a factory produced racer, but once again is not backed at all by the factory, once it leaves the door it's your job to run the program. Also, they only came out with it because Ferrari of Washington started such a strong race program and would Ferrari sit out where money can be made. The same is true with Ferraris looking into a 550 style racer. There is a clear definition between FACTORY racing and PRIVATE racing. I could theoretically build any car into a racer (think Yugo, Kia, etc), but it would still be private, this is the case with any Ferrari sports car at the moment. NASCARs weigh the same as a 550 and have 250-300 more HP, so they must be significantly faster than it. One has to remember too that they aren't geared for 0-60 runs but rather for running around an oval between 175-210mph. How long do you think a tissue paper 360GT would last in the mix with stock cars, they're strong and heavy to cope with the racing they are subjected to. No matter how fast any street car is, it would still get wrecked in a stock car race. And, I think you would need a hell of a fast car to keep up with them. Most cars nowadays are nearly as heavy and are at least 300HP short of them. Everyone always goes off on NASCAR for some reason. It makes hundreds of millions of dollars that get pumped into the U.S. economy and entertains millions of people. If that's bad then I'm lost. Also, the Ferrari power trips amaze me, Ferrari doesn't even race sports cars anymore and sticks to F1 which has no bearing on any street car. I'm sure there is a 1% trickle down, but does that make any difference. Lamborghini does no racing and makes comparable performing cars. I love Ferrari, it's blatently obvious that I do, but I call a spade a spade here. Obviously the 360 makes a better race platform than nearly everything else out on the road, but the fact still remains that FERRARI doesn't race it. FERRARI races F1 cars which are probably closer to the space shuttle than the 360. There are more similarities behind a NASCAR Taurus and a street Taurus, which are both FORD backed vehicles. Even with no mechanical similarities, they are both closed body cars, have FORD (maybe assembled by someone like Judd, but still a SBF)street engines essentially in them. What they hell does an F1 drivetrain have in common with a street car. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 314 Registered: 4-2002 |
I'd sure like to dig out the article from Car and Driver. The Winston Cup car was surprisingly slow. I think the quarter mile was only in the low 12's. I assumed they were faster. Quite a few cars will do it in the 12's these days. A viper would give one of them a good run. The article came out 3-4 years ago. Anyone have it? If you watch the cars when they race on superspeedways, it takes one heck of a long time for them to get up to speed. That does not happen with other types of race cars. I'm only talking about straight line speed, not track times. Like someone said, a street car cannot cope with a track car on a track. I've got a track car so I know what it does to street cars on the track. Just think about what one of the 7 liter Z06's ALMS GTS racers would do to a Winston Cup car in a race. And the ALMS 550 would also be faster. I think the 360 that has been winning the GT2(?) class would also be faster. Check out the road test that was done in the November issue of Road and Track (I think). Nascar has the American public hoodwinked. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 256 Registered: 1-2002 |
Bret, Your wrong. The 360 and 550 are both used as 'platforms' in racing; the 360 challenge in its series, and the 360 GT in the ALMS and ACO [the cars that will run the 24hrs of LeMans] endurance series; both, have more in common w/ the street cars than any on the NASCAR racers; in fact the 360's, under ACO, regs must be manual, F1 is not allowed. Also, while the F1 tranny in a street 360 may not be the one found on the F2002, the concept did originate from F1, and is also shared by it's racing counterpart(s). There is far more to homology b/w any street 360/550 and it's racing couterpart than any NASCAR racer and it's body panel inspired ounterpart. For reference, I wrote a quick article about the racing 360's, here: http://honda.hybrids.jp/ap02/ho/ferrari.shtml -Hubert | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2753 Registered: 2-2001 |
NASCARS probably share more with a road taurus than a 360, 550, etc shares with anything Ferrari currently races so it is interesting that that particular argument routinely comes up here at a Ferrari site. Do you guys really think the "F1" shifter in a 360 is anything like the gear system of the 2002 F1 car? And that's the closest bridge that could be made. I always give NASCAR credit because I like pushrod V8s a lot, it's subtle in most of my posts, but I'll be blunt here and say it is boring and nowhere near the level of most sports car racing IMO (except for sliding, I think you'd be hard pressed to find people that control a car in a spin better then some of the good ole boys), even though I do find the engines and corporate sponsorship interesting. Also I find it interesting how so many people can like it, I mean it's cool, but everyday you see people with one of those number stickers on there back windshield for earnhardt jr, gordon, etc and I live in NJ, I can only imagine what it must be like in say Kentucky. | ||
| Francisco J. Quinones (Frankie)
New member Username: Frankie Post Number: 34 Registered: 8-2002 |
that's it,i'm convinced.in the morn i'm going out to the Ford dealer and ordering a new TWO door,REAR wheel drive carbureted V8 4 speed manual taurus.um wait,it doesn't exist.well then a rear wheel drive V8 grand prix,no,um...a rear wheel drive NEW monte carlo.oh wait all those nascar "stockers" have the same tube frame chassis.they're the same under the skin!!!aaargh!!me so confused....  | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 469 Registered: 1-2002 |
Check out this web site (even the name is hilarious): http://www.noright.com | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 295 Registered: 5-2002 |
I heard this one the other day. Non Athletic Sport Centered Around Rednecks | ||
| Andrew (Mrrou)
Member Username: Mrrou Post Number: 377 Registered: 3-2002 |
The American car companies seem to have their act together with Nascar as far as making a high performance machine. Now if only they do the same to their production models. Andrew | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2749 Registered: 2-2001 |
LOL, 550 keep up with a NASCAR, a bit of a stretch for any road car to keep up with a purpose built race car. The 550 is not the car of choice for the track rats that I talk to, most seem to refer to it as a "pig" on the track. Granted many of these guys own purpose built Ferrari sports racers, some which even ran at LeMans so their perspective of what is a pig and what is not a pig may be swayed, but still. No street car is even remotely close to a track car. How much suspension travel does a track car have, maybe 10% of what a street car needs to have, etc... forget about engine differences. NASCAR pushrod V8s rev to almost 9000rpms, that's 500 more than a tiny engine 360, over a 1000 more than a comparable displacement 550, to say a NASCAR isn't amazing is to be ignorant IMO. I'm not saying I personally like them (that stupid F___ing classic nascar litters Speedvision), but give respect where respect is due. And yes I know how much better F1 cars are (with 10 times the budget, and maybe half the financial return to sponsors and owners). I can see it now, someone writing back to me saying lol 9000rpm NASCAR engine, our Ferrari engine revs to 18000rpms, etc so no need for anyone to go off on some Ferrari power trip, I'm just bringing up a point here which most people ignore. | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 312 Registered: 4-2002 |
Car and Driver did a test of a 'name' Winston Cup car several years ago. Unfortunately, I no longer have the issue. It was one with a tall rear end so it would go fast on the top end. The acceleration tests were rather mediocre. I think a modern day superfast sports car from the factory floor will outrun one for 1/4 mile. Nascars are among the slowest of race cars due to their weight and aero. It's like professional wrestling; it's a show. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2117 Registered: 2-2001 |
A Nascar car has to weigh 3800 lbs at last spec. They usually produce 750 or so HP without restrictor plates and could easily top 220MPH. The hood, roof and deck lids are production assembly line parts. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 252 Registered: 1-2002 |
Wow! Things get out of hand quickly; first, any RACE car v. a STREET car comparison is a joke, at least to take it to be an apt comparison. You could do it to establish a barometer, but thats all. Also, let's please not get into the Schumi v. J. Gordon debate; they drive polar opposites and have had very limited overlap in training, although Gordon out of all the NASCAR compatriots, has had some karting. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Member Username: Caribe Post Number: 431 Registered: 2-2001 |
You know, I'll love to see that. A 550, 360, TR, on a race track (with right hand turns) against a NASCAR car, just for comparison. There was this video once comparing various Mercedes to the McLaren/Mercedes F1 car on a track course. Amazing results! I guess you expect it, but when you see it done, it is a whole different experience. | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 278 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ken, you're way off base. A NASCAR will, as my little brother says, "own" a 550 on a road course or in a straight line. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 528 Registered: 10-2001 |
Tim, you think so? I would think in straight line acceleration they'd be close although the NASCAR would pull better at higher speed....or would it? They both weigh about 3000 pounds, right? Figure 500 HP for the NASCAR; 550 maybe? What's the 550 got HP wise? Top speed (with restricter plate on the NASCAR) would be close I think...or am I way off base here? | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 974 Registered: 8-2001 |
550 vs NASCAR? Hmmm...what's next? How about F40 vs the space shuttle? 360 vs the japanese bullit train? Enzo vs top fuel dragster? I love it when everything's compared to a Ferrari (any model). | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 973 Registered: 8-2001 |
Since when did Ford come out with a REAR WHEEL DRIVE Taurus? I don't think a Taurus comes with a tube-frame chassis and just 2 doors from the showroom either. That's why it's so dangerous to see people drive their street cars thinking they're driving a somewhat similar machine to what they see in NASCAR. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1503 Registered: 6-2001 |
Quite well? you really cant compare a street 550 to a NASCAR. the nascar would eat it for lunch, in every performance catagory. Lighter, alot more horsepower and torque, etc. Of course you would be pretty sore after drviing the NASCAR for a few hours, not so with the ferrari. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 527 Registered: 10-2001 |
A NASCAR set up for the street races they have handles remarkably well. Remember, a front engine car IS mid engined in a sense, although the center of gravity is a bit farther away from the midpoint of the car than what we call 'mid engined'. The higher center of gravity of a Taurus or NASCAR is the major detrement to better handling. Of course, an F1, IRL or CART car will run rings around them but I would think the NASCAR would do quite well against a 550. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Member Username: Caribe Post Number: 430 Registered: 2-2001 |
Perhaps there are no matching parts between the road car and the NASCAR look alike, but to the average driver, the fact that they race these things is an invitation (or should I say misinformation) for exceeding the low performance limits of their family car. And who said that NASCAR cars handle that well anyway. Besides the race at Laguna Seca, is the handling dept. really tested anywhere else? Regardless, these family cars cannot operate outside of their designed envelope that well (given the fact that the envelope is very tight to begin with). A good driver might be able to do great things (in relative terms that is) with them, but the average driver is only looking for trouble playing games like this. I drive a large S-Class mercedes, and I can honestly tell you, I had made that car drive the canyons at a pace that could make the faint of heart get a stroke. But in the end, I know I am pushing the limits (relatively small limits as compared to my F-car) of a big car, and that in no way, I would, or dare, to compete with any other car on any public road like those two cars were doing. The point is some people do stupid things when they see a higher performance cars driving by. We all have to be careful when driving our F-cars at all times. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 187 Registered: 4-2002 |
Aside from the basic look of the cars, there is not a single part in a NASCAR Taurus that is replaceable with a single part in the production Taurus. Therefore, the handling statement is without merit. | ||
| John Delvac (Johndelvac)
Junior Member Username: Johndelvac Post Number: 116 Registered: 11-2001 |
Give me a brake... Ha! I do that all the time. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Member Username: Caribe Post Number: 429 Registered: 2-2001 |
Greg, it is funny you mention a Taurus! A friend of mine was driving on the LA Freeway when a BMW 330(?) pass him at high speed closely followed by a Taurus SHO. My friend saw then coming, and he mentioned that the beamer was looking pretty good swerving through traffic, but he could tell the Taurus was riding near its limits. Half a mile down the freeway, my friend saw tires marks that looked like a spin out, and sure enough, the Taurus dead at the wall with damage all around. It seemed that the car spun and hit the wall several times before coming to rest. Now, aren't Taurus the kind of car that they race at NASCAR? I think that's why I don't like NASCAR. Grocerie shopping cars racing at 200 mph on an artificial straight line. Why do they make people believe these cars are sports cars? | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2395 Registered: 12-2000 |
I hate when the brakes break! | ||
| John Delvac (Johndelvac)
Junior Member Username: Johndelvac Post Number: 115 Registered: 11-2001 |
Joe, lets see a pic of your Ferrari. I'm sure I met you at ICD, but can't place the face or car. On multilane expressways, I have yet to figure out where is the safest place to be protected from road debris and idiots. The right lane has more debris so that's out, and one can't keep enough car lenths behind without being cut off by exiting folks. In the left lane, there is always someone halfing your 10 car lenth distance and blowing sand at your windshield that was placed 2 months before for ice. The center lanes are too frustrating with those who can not drive. I don't know. I know the speedo is off 'cause when I'm doing 100, so is everyone else. What frustrates me the most on secondary roads is that people love to pull out infront of the Ferrari, as if to test your breaking. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2394 Registered: 12-2000 |
Unfortunately I had to open her up at least twice on the way to work in order to let traffic in or get out of the way. I hate when that happens. ;) | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 499 Registered: 3-2001 |
I think Willis is 100% correct. It is much better to drive with traffic in the Ferrari. If I move faster than traffic all of a sudden some car will come flying up on my bumper or they will cut someone off and try to pass on the inside lane. Driving back from Italian Car Day there a was guy in a Ford Taurus that felt the need to prove something. It is a single lane road that has lots of curves then goes into 2 lanes just for a brief period. Well he starts tailgating, then in the curves he starting sliding in one and dropped back around 10 car lengths. Then came the 2 lane and he gunned it on the straight away to pass. Why should you drive fast all of the time because you are driving a Ferrari. Save it for the track or a nice empty road. Why risk it. | ||
| Mark Freeman (Mrpc12)
Junior Member Username: Mrpc12 Post Number: 74 Registered: 11-2001 |
I would echo many of the other comments. I can't believe how many times I get passed on the Freeway at 80mph by mini vans and SUV's. Those cars were not designed for handling at those speeds. I just slow down and get out of their way. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 466 Registered: 1-2002 |
I agree with Willis on this. I routinely get all sorts of folks trying to prove thay are better (read:faster) drivers than I am when I am in the 550. They want to drag race at stoplights, and they do the swerve-by-and-floor-it testosterone thing on straightaways. Usually, they are adolescents in Camaros, Mustangs, ricers, etc, and rednecks in pickups with loud dual exhausts. Now, I am one of those in Tim's post who REALLY drive their cars (as several others here will attest, I am no old lady...), but when these "challenges" come, I just let them go on by & be the "rabbit" to flush out the cops for me. I never street race my F-car. | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 967 Registered: 8-2001 |
Tim, there's a few reasons why it seems Ferrari owners drive like "old ladies". From my experience, cruising on freeway in traffic at "slightly over" the limit is generally uneventful until someone start to pace you and get dangerously close (swerving into my lane). Speeding up to get away just provoke everyone, I mean EVERYONE, to go faster and drive more aggressively. Once, I've spotted a minivan in the mirrors trying to keep up with me at 100MPH. The van began to slide out going around a bend then the guy finally had the sense to back off. One guy in another van thought he was hot stuff and blew by me on my way back from Oregon(I was cruising at 80 he's probably 100+). A mile or so down, the van slid into the bushy median and, luckily, it didn't roll. People see a Ferrari as a challenge and they WILL do stupid things in traffic (I've seen at least one new stupid act around my F-car in traffic almost daily). Only way is to drive "normal" in traffic and save the aggressive performance driving on clear backroads and the track. | ||
| James Dixon (Omnadren250)
Member Username: Omnadren250 Post Number: 308 Registered: 7-2001 |
I saw one of those 350z at school today. The owner had the hood open so I had a peek inside the engine bay. There seems to be quite a bit of room in there, in fact, enough room for 2 turbos and the necessary plumbing. Does Nissan have any plans to make the car a twinner in the future?? | ||
| Marcus Mayeux (Mmayeux73)
Member Username: Mmayeux73 Post Number: 306 Registered: 4-2002 |
Tim N, He loves it, he is coming up next Friday for my Birthday, so I will get to drive it then and will let you know what my thoughts are. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1501 Registered: 6-2001 |
Most F-car owners i see drive like old ladies. There aer some who actually drive them, then there are those few who are idiots and put everyones life at risk. How does he like the 350Z? they seem like cool cars, and with japanese reliablilty and construction quality, they seem like a good choice for a relatively low cost sportscar. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 423 Registered: 3-2002 |
that is actually a beautiful thing about driving on the continent....people see a ferrari coming up in their mirrors, they actually get out of the way promptly and without giving u the finger. i hardly ever have to wait or flash or signal, the path just clears... | ||
| Kevin Horner (Boz)
New member Username: Boz Post Number: 23 Registered: 8-2002 |
Never happened to me before. Most f-cars simply want me the heck out of the way. I oblige. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 419 Registered: 3-2002 |
probably thought he better check whether it was a cop or not. | ||
| Marcus Mayeux (Mmayeux73)
Member Username: Mmayeux73 Post Number: 303 Registered: 4-2002 |
My best friend from Houston bought a 350z not too long ago and had given me a call last night and told me about an incounter with an F-car. He was on 59 and cruising about 70mph when he spots some xenons behind him in the distance coming up very quickly (he said well over 100mph-this was late at night). He pulled over to the next lane to get the hell out of the way to see what was coming up so fast. The car literally slows down to the exact speed my friend was going without going past him at the slightest. He looks over to see what the cars was and he saw a clean Titanium 360 with F/R Challenge grills, Challenge wheels, and lowered-no gap between the fender and the tires. (Quote reaction) "Holy Sh*T!" The gent in the 360 was an Indian fellow with a cocky look on his face-smiled and look at my friend's car and floored it. The 360 took off and my friend followed to see what his car could do, but to his dismay he was 3-4 car lengths behind, but had fun persuing...anyway thought it was interesting that an F-car owner slowed down to see the 350Z especially going the speed he was going. |