| Author | Message | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1561 Registered: 9-2001 |
doody make sure you have complied with all sales tax issues before getting the AG involved. I am sure you have but just and FYI | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 545 Registered: 11-2001 |
Thanks everybody for your opinions and thoughts. It's been most helpful. I'm going to notify the MA Attorney General's office et. al. so they can do whatever they do to reprimand people for behaving badly in matters like this. I don't think I'm going to write letters to Forza et. al., as I think that could negatively impact too many people who don't deserve it (Forza et. al. aren't going to print a few pages of context like we have here in this thread). The car was and is stellar. The sales staff were good people and ultimately supportive, so I wouldn't want to see them penalized unduly. The car showed with a minor alarm problem they made good on long-distance with zero drama. The sales guys are definitely decent folks. While they were the initial source of the titling problem, they owned up to the situation and made efforts to remedy (those efforts were largely unsuccessful, but they tried). Accidents do happen. The ultimate problem was with the management of the dealership. The dealership in question is Foreign Cars Italia in Greensboro NC. I purchased from FCI in part because they had/have a stellar reputation. From what I can tell, that reputation was built and nurtured stellarly by Steve Barney, who apparently sold the company a few years ago to Paramount Automotive Group, a NC outfit that sells about a dozen marquees (Ford to Ferrari) in a few towns throughout NC. The management of the parent company repeatedly maintained that nothing wrong had been done and there really wasn't anything to discuss - apparently in conflict with what the sales folks were telling them. It is their business to run as they please, of course. Please don't anybody start any flame discussions of the "wall of shame" or the like as has happened here in the past. These guys didn't purposely screw me - they just made a series of dumb errors and then the ultimately responsible folks wouldn't own up. My car was and is a stellar vehicle. I don't intend to do business with these folks again, but they certainly aren't to be avoided (like some seriously problematic outfits), as long as you're careful to verify that they have title to the car they're selling you ;-). Doody. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 449 Registered: 3-2002 |
stan has the right idea imho. don't create more aggro for yourself by chasing people that don't care anyway. if you want to show them that the error of their ways, hit them where it really hurts: reputation and eventual sales. you have made it a point on this forum, now hundreds of prospective buyers have taken note. write a letter to forza etc saying the same thing. pretty soon they will read one of these and reapize they made a mistake. thats a lot easier than the legal route.....and you will live longer. | ||
| Fred (I Luv 4REs) (Iluv4res)
Junior Member Username: Iluv4res Post Number: 181 Registered: 8-2002 |
Yes, Florida is lax. Doesn't that make sense that we have the most crooked dealers as other posts have explained???? | ||
| Stanley DiGuiseppi (Standig)
Junior Member Username: Standig Post Number: 76 Registered: 5-2002 |
When someone does me a good turn I make it a point to tell everyone.... When someone does me bad I make it a point to tell EveryOne..... This way what goes around comes around.... | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 319 Registered: 4-2002 |
Martin: Boy they sure are lax in Fla. In Oregon, a dealer couldn't even think of selling a car where the title wasn't back yet from the leinholder. Here we HAVE TO process the title for the customer in 10 days, or big time fines. And they check, boy do they ever check! | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1535 Registered: 9-2001 |
when I bought my car from a private party about 1k miles away - he sent the title - I got it retitled in my state and then I sent him the check. once he got the check the car was put on a truck. | ||
| ELI (Titanium360)
Junior Member Username: Titanium360 Post Number: 211 Registered: 4-2002 |
Doddy: Just drive and enjoy the car as long as it is what you wanted. LIFE IS TOO SHORT! | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 540 Registered: 11-2001 |
martin - we explored that. can't do it in MA. the auto insurance rules are draconian (the industry is fully regularted and state-controlled - it's horrific). even a dealer plate from the outfit wouldn't have worked (not that they were willing). doody. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3017 Registered: 5-2001 |
Here in Florida when we take a trade or consignment we can get the application for title already signed by the seller or trade-in person. This will ensure that you will get the title. Obviously the dealer has to make sure it is clear title and there are no liens. I hate to buy without the title as well. Ther eis ways around it though. Doody, the dealer could have given you a temp tag from that state. All you do is get your insurance on the car with your regular insurance carrier and add it to your policy. Then they can give you a temp tag and you are good to go. You probably had the car shipped and they nor you ever thought of that. I agree they should have never done that but it really is somewhat common. If there is a lien holder on the car it can take a few weeks till the dealer gets the title of the car and then can send it to you. I would also see this as a lesson learned. Noting to lose sleep over, after all you finally got the title for the car. | ||
| Nick Berry (Nickb)
New member Username: Nickb Post Number: 25 Registered: 8-2002 |
Doody, report them to the MA Consumer Dept. If their management is confident they did nothing wrong they have nothing to worry about. On the other hand,if they violated MA law they need to be told/fined/warned (?) whatever so that future customers are protected. I know this will sound strange but reporting them will make them a better seller.  | ||
| Fred (I Luv 4REs) (Iluv4res)
Junior Member Username: Iluv4res Post Number: 179 Registered: 8-2002 |
Doody, You're lucky you got a title! You're safer because you dealt with a dealer. At the wholesale dealer auctions, there are many instances of dealers buying and selling cars without the physical title being there. However, they are required to produce it before being paid for the car. I would NEVER pay for a car from a private party who didn't have the title (or at least access to a copy from the leinholder). How do you know you're paying the right person(s)? How do you know they're going to pay off the car instead of keeping the $? Probably not worth going after them b/c your damages are nill, however, what they did was playing with fire. | ||
| acw (Acw)
Junior Member Username: Acw Post Number: 124 Registered: 2-2002 |
"it's just part of the game. i factor it into the cost of my addiction. at the end of the day it's probably more expensive than a heroin habit, but it's legal, less disruptive to the family, and the high is really sweet!" Doody, you are my new hero. I'll save that for next time I have to negotiate a new car (: | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 538 Registered: 11-2001 |
billh - i am apparently a fickle boy and have developed a bad habit of buying new cars and flipping them after a year or year and a half. so i pretty much have resolved to smile and take it up the a$$ :-) seriously though, i don't think i've gotten screwed per se, but i certainly haven't gotten top dollar on my recent trades (E39 M5, 996 C2 Cab). in MA the trade value isn't taxable, so if you trade a $70K car on a $100K you only have to pay 5% sales tax on the $30K. the dealers know this, and use it as an unspoken negotiating tactic. the car is ACTUALLY worth $70K plus the tax you'd have to pay if you DIDN'T trade it - so $73.5K. they come in at the bottom of the blue book range, but once you start factoring that tax savings in you end up in the middle of the blue book range. IME, given the hassles of a private sale, it's always about netted out to within a percent or so, so i've always just done the trade. it looks likely that i'll trade my 996TT next spring - it'll be just under two years old. it looks like it's going to hurt given how that market is behaving. it's just part of the game. i factor it into the cost of my addiction. at the end of the day it's probably more expensive than a heroin habit, but it's legal, less disruptive to the family, and the high is really sweet! so my wife puts up with it :-) i'm spending more time looking at pre-owned cars these days though. still considering a 550. the 928 GTS market is chilling out. the 850 CSi market is looking nice too. i'm on the list for an SL55 too, so who knows :-) doody. | ||
| William Henderson (Billh)
New member Username: Billh Post Number: 32 Registered: 5-2002 |
Just out of curiosity...do you guys get good deals when trading in cars? do you get screwed like me? the Jag you traded, did you get a fair deal or do you get low-balled and just write it off as the price to pay in order to play... | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 450 Registered: 3-2002 |
Doody, I had a similar experience this time last year. I was going to buy a new Mercedes S500, I was trading in my Jag. The Mercedes dealer had the S500 I wanted in stock. The salesmen knew I had Ferrari's and suggested I drive an AMG CLK55 before I bought the sedan. I must admit I did know what it was, but I drove it, and loved it! Now the problem, they did not have a new one in stock and said it would be a few months before they would get one. They did have the one I drove, a car they had taken in on trade a month before with 3,900 miles. The price was right so I took it. A month goes by and no title. (we have 30 day temp tags in KS) The dealer says they are behind, come by and they will give me another temp tag (a big no no). I took it, I trusted the dealer. Another month goes by, no title. now the dealer is offering me a dealer tag. I get firm about an answer. Turns out the dealer does not have a title. They traded for the car without receiving the title, sold it to me without a title. Apperantly the first owner had never paid the sales tax (about $7,000). The first owner was now claiming he had lost the MSO. He was going to order another MSO but that could takes months, then he had to pay the tax and title the car, wait for the title (45 days) then sign the title to the dealer who would then sign it to me............ Well needless to say, the dealer wrote me a check, but my Jag was already gone. I do not own a Mercedes..... probably never will! | ||
| nick m........ (Nickm)
Junior Member Username: Nickm Post Number: 140 Registered: 8-2001 |
How mad would you have been if someone else would have been willing to purchase your car and sit on it for a month without driving it??? Think of it like this: you were able to have the car sit in your garage knowing that it was yours. Not letting it sit on the dealers showroom with you losing countless nights of sleep wondering when somebody would buy "your" car, which surely would have happened. For the stack of paper ($$) you gave them you took posession of a nice car. Be happy, don't worry. Enjoy. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 315 Registered: 4-2002 |
Doody: You're not (much) damaged, but, yeah, under most states' laws, you can't sell a vehicle w/o clear title. Don't know where you bought it, but here in Oregon, this would end up in the dealer losing his license. Here, we could take a deposit, with the written understanding that the car is waiting title, and the transaction could not proceed without it. Deposit merely saves the car for the customer, he can ask for it back. Not kosher behavior | ||
| martin J weiner,M.D. (Mw360)
Member Username: Mw360 Post Number: 625 Registered: 5-2001 |
Agree with Dave.Let it go. It is just one of many life's lessons to learn from. Could have been a lot worse-like burnt headlight assemblies and no background dash illumination! | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 262 Registered: 1-2002 |
Doody, 3 quick thoughts.. 1. All is well that ends well. 2. In the future, do as I do, see a clear title, then send money. 3. My wife is an attorney as well, but has mellowed a little. You have no damages, so nothing to sue for. You could ask a prosecutor to look at it, but I would hope they have better things to do. I say forget about it. Dave | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 535 Registered: 11-2001 |
i've been sitting on this for quite a while now hoping for a pleasant solution/outcome, but that appears to not be forthcoming, so i'd appreciate any advice y'all might have. [NOTE: i've emailed and spoken to many of you here, so you might have actual data. if you know who the obfuscated parties are, please do not post that information.] i bought my f-car earlier this year. i purchased it long-distance based on pictures, dealer reputation, descriptions, faxes, and discussions with all sorts of folks. the car was everything it was represented to me to be and then some. i cannot imagine being happier with it. many folks can't say the same thing about their f-cars, so i consider myself lucky and grateful. my problem is that the outfit that sold it to me behaved, well, sub-optimally. as i believe i've typed here previously, an automobile transaction is basically paying a pile of money for a piece of paper (title) that happens to come with some metal, plastic, and rubber for free. these guys needed to close their quarter and wanted my deal done quickly. i understand this behavior - i've been up against making my quarter more than once. i did everything i could to make sure they could make their quarter, and it worked out. i was happy i could help. the problem was that they took my money on a car they didn't actually have title to. it was a consigned vehicle with a lien. this was never disclosed to me prior to the sale. i didn't receive title until about a month after they received full value. aside from the transport time, the car basically sat in my garage covered and tarped. in MA, the auto insurance rules are exceptionally stringent. no temporary plates. no temporary registrations. no nuthin' without a title held by you, or a lienholder (leasing company, finance company, etc.). i don't know how the laws work in the state the seller is located in, but in MA, according to my attorneys and other local car dealer friends, this is quite non-kosher. fraudulent conveyance, et. al. the sales staff agreed that i was not treated properly, and were, eventually, quite apologetic. management on the other hand firmly believes that they did absolutely not one thing wrong, and they didn't even owe me an apology. so i'm conflicted about what to do. if they have in fact broken the law, do i make a stink so they can't do it to other people? i could do nothing. just let it drift. out-of-towners neither familiar with nor concerned with MA rules. i definitely don't want to give up the car, of course. it took me forever to find it! it's not about money. i don't really want monetary compensation. the opportunity cost of the money for the period involved is small and not of real consequence to me. it's the principle of the matter - you just can't behave like they behaved (at least in this state). i should note that, while i may be mistaken, i do not believe i got the title late due to any orchestrated deception - it was just a sequence of dumb, time-consuming mistakes on their part getting the title cleared. finally, if i were to do something in the legal realm, it wouldn't cost me much, as my wife is an attorney and she's way more pissed off about how they treated me than i am. so that's not much of a factor. any thoughts or advice much appreciated. thanks, doody. |