| Author | Message | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 346 Registered: 5-2001 |
I have been driving a 1996 Porsche 911 6-speed since last Thursday. I have been thinking all week about how much nicer it is to drive then my 84 308 (which I love and would never, ever trade for any Porsche) when cold. It's all about the shifting. You can hop in the 911 and start it stone-dead cold and drive away immediately. It feels, shifts, and runs the same hot, cold whatever. It drives great. You just can't do that in the 308. I would never consider driving it down to the corner for a paper. It shifts like a damn garbage truck when it's cold. Every 308 I have ever driven feels the same way until it's up to operating temp. I still love it. It may not hold a candle to a Toyota's stick but I could care less. I never wanted a Toyota. | ||
| Todd Gieger (Todd328gts)
Junior Member Username: Todd328gts Post Number: 205 Registered: 6-2002 |
The mood I'm in... I'll snap him in two | ||
| Chris A. (Asianbond)
Junior Member Username: Asianbond Post Number: 81 Registered: 5-2002 |
If I wanted a smooth generic shifting car I be driving a Nissan. My ferrari's clanky gated shifter contributes to the overall "ferrari" driving experience. But when the gearbox is warmed up it delivers solid unquestionable shifts, unlike an ungated box. The worse shifting tranny I ever owned was a 1994 Porsche Carrera with the 915, unless you knew where 3rd gear was you were greeted with a gear grind half the time. | ||
| Peter Polasek (Peterp)
New member Username: Peterp Post Number: 7 Registered: 8-2002 |
To answer the specific original question -- yes, it remains confusing to hop between cars with differing shift patterns. I find that F-shifting is truly enjoyable because: 1) Once accustomed to the precision of gated shifting, other shifters become reminiscent of stirring cream of mushroom soup. 2) Although I can't for the life of me recall the year or model of the first Ferrari I rode in (twenty-five years ago), I can recall with pitch-perfect accuracy the clink-clink sound of the gear changes through the gates and that sound remained ingrained in my brain until I was actually able to buy one. Neither of these are reasonable "objective" comments because there are LOTS of shifters that are far more precise -- and who could possibly care less about the sound of the shift gates? The fact is that evaluating these cars on an objective basis is pointless. They are fun and have a "life of the party" personality that, much more often than not, outweighs their logistical baggage. Contrarian views on this site should be welcome, but if somebody just doesn't get the subjective angle on these cars, then I'm not sure there is any reason for them to post because they are not going to convince us and we are not going to convince them. These cars are not ideal grocery getters (although I frequently take two separate trips to the store when my wife asks me to pick up milk and eggs) and there is probably no single real-world task for which they are ideally suited -- but you accept this as part of the initial purchase decision and I personally relish every moment of inappropriate use of this vehicle. The best shifting car I have ever driven was my 4-speed 1969 Porsche 912 (this is not a misprint) -- this car inexplicably shifted better than either the 74 or 87 Carreras. Still, I find that neither the 912, nor even modern over-achievers like the Miata, are nearly as fun to shift as the Mondial. Getting back to the subjective angle -- I still have the 87 Carrera and when I hop in the Mondial immediately after driving the Carrera, I am amazed how much better a car it is than the Porsche. Yet when I hop back in the Porsche, I am amazed how much better a car it is than the Mondial. Such is the state of the art in subjective analysis. Having a 2-car garage and my wife's Jeep parked in the street, I was forced to make the difficult decision that every man dreads -- choosing between his wife and a sports car. After much soul searching, and a rather disappointing coin toss, I have decided to part ways with the Carrera. I don't think that I will have difficulty determining which is the better car when hopping back and forth between the Mondial and the Jeep (at least until Winter hits full stride). | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 707 Registered: 4-2001 |
I must of gotten lucky as all hell. My TR shifts smoothly into any gear warm or cold. No clunking or sticking at all. I do double clutch on the way down and she just slips into gear without the car even changing its stance. I will just live with my luck I guess. | ||
| Joel Belser (Driver)
New member Username: Driver Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2002 |
I find that the Ferrari gearbox works better at higher rpm. You must shift with confidence and authority...too slowly, and the revs fall away defeating any effort to match internal speeds. Downshifts must be doubleclutch. Learn to heel and toe and a new world of driving smoothness opens up. However, my '63 Alfa has a slicker tranny. | ||
| JP Lavigne (Jpl)
New member Username: Jpl Post Number: 49 Registered: 12-2001 |
My miata shifts better than any 5 speed I have ever driven (and I have owned and driven quite a few), but when the weather is great, a little cool like it is now, my 78 GTB is just about as much fun. Not as slick as the Miata but just as much fun. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2115 Registered: 12-2000 |
John, try short-shifting into 2nd (ie: change-up at around 2000RPM, even less. Just let the car pull away from rest in first, then once moving, go into 2nd. It works for me). | ||
| John L. Jordan Jr. (Up2nogd)
Junior Member Username: Up2nogd Post Number: 71 Registered: 8-2002 |
Magoo, Thanks for your input! Everytime I miss that shift I swear I gonna try one of these things! - maybe I should just drive the car more!!  | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3267 Registered: 2-2001 |
John, There have been discussions about these modified shift gates here on the F.C.. One of the problems that was discussed was causing shifter misalignment conditions when using the modified gate. Personally I would be skeptical about using one. JMO | ||
| John L. Jordan Jr. (Up2nogd)
Junior Member Username: Up2nogd Post Number: 69 Registered: 8-2002 |
Anybody tried one of these to at least help with the shift problems - or at least missed shifts! http://www.titaniumcavallino.com/ferrari/gallery.html I was thinking of purchasing one for a 328? I miss second nearly every time I'm on the gas??? Johnny | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 319 Registered: 4-2002 |
I LLLOOOVVVEEE my F car, I wouldnt trade it for anything but another F car. Having said that the gear change is about as BAD as I have ever experienced! Before all the 'improvement suggestions come flooding in' I've read enough to know its a basic poor DESIGN and there is no point wasting time trying to improve it. Mine is v'young in miles (3K) so it will probably ease a bit with some real use, but so what, I'll live with it happily. What I wont do is to deny it as a problem because its a ferrari...a situation many seem happy to do on here. I still love the car and everything it stands for. I'd be 'very' suprised if most relatively mass produced run of the mill cars didnt have better gearchanges | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 507 Registered: 3-2001 |
I truly enjoy the shifting on my 308. I can actually feel what is going on. It is very direct. When I drive other cars the shifting feels very light and not very solid. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1441 Registered: 9-2001 |
My 348 was stiff before I put Mobile 1 and GM additive in the transaxle. While still not as good as my M5, it now shifts 100% better. But, i have to agree with Ed, out of the five Ferraris I have owned , the only one that shifted like a regular transmission was the 1967 330GTC. It shifted great. The 328, 400, TR and 348 all are not up to par with German, Japanese and US car transmissions. | ||
| Steve Holden (Sf_348)
New member Username: Sf_348 Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2002 |
Glad you guys had this discussion ,my 348 is a pig when cold, try, double clutching. but my previous Testerossa was impossible . 1st to 3rd for the first 20 minutes. My 911 is perfect Typical German clinical precision. (although i wish the F was better)!BUT the F makes for a more involving drive , it's why we're on F-chat and not at the dealers now trading in for a 996 ! | ||
| joe saldana (Ironjoe)
Junior Member Username: Ironjoe Post Number: 101 Registered: 12-2001 |
the worst is an A/C, second worst a 308..... | ||
| eli (ali) Latif (Ninja_eli)
New member Username: Ninja_eli Post Number: 8 Registered: 5-2002 |
I can honestly say that my 355 is no problem whatsoever for shifting. I drive the 355 and my Supra regularly one after the other and can say that the 355 shift is not much worse, if at all than the Supra. I actually prefer it as I like the sound of the metal against the gate, but I also find making quick changes with high revs just as quick and easy, if not easier, in the 355. I have missed third a couple of times though, but thats my fault as I have done the same in the Supra when I first got it. I like the way the gearbox feels so connected to the engine, there's just solid connection BANG behind you when you let the clutch out. I must admit the 348 gearbox was not as good, and needed warming for proper use. Apparently they are not all like that. I think Ferrari had to make improvements to their cars because of Honda and Porsche. If you don't complain, it won't get fixed. I agree with the "don't hide your head in the sand" syndrome. I have told the dealer that they can go f**k themselves if they think that the excuse "its part of the character" will wash with me when it comes to any warranty claims. There's nothing wrong with a perfect Ferrari that doesn't let you down or piss you off. Certain things are character(e.g. metal gates, metal lever etc) others are just flaws (•••• gearchange, inability to use a gear when its cold etc.). Ooops, forgot to wear the flame jacket first. | ||
| William H (Countachxx)
Intermediate Member Username: Countachxx Post Number: 1527 Registered: 2-2001 |
If I stick to an Italian car then no problem, but if I switch from a Japanese or US shifter into the 512TR then I get confused for a few seconds. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 448 Registered: 3-2002 |
the 348 tranny sucked, the 512tr's is great, better after a warm up but still great. very satisfying positive feedback and good effort required so that it doesn't feel like you are just stirring soup. and personally i like the clikety click over the metal gates. as for shift pattern, that can be a problem. i try to always figure out which way/how to engage reverse so that i don't do it accidentally. luckily most cars these days have some sort of detente that has to be released. in the same vein but different......the biggest problem i have in switching from car to car is the speed/acceleration change. after an fcar drive, everything else seems glacially slow and you have to remember that you can't pass as easily or dart into a position etc. you also feel very pedestrian in a plain old station wagon....but thats a different topic again. | ||
| David J. Smith (Darkhorse512)
New member Username: Darkhorse512 Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2002 |
I dont own an F-car, but I have been lucky enough to have logged about 100 miles total in a few; a 330 GTE, 308QV GTS and a the bulk of the miles were in a 1990 TR. GTE shifted pretty badly. I was probably going to slow. Or maybe because it was a seldom driven low mile car on a cool morning. It felt like a U-Haul. Slow deliberate manly shifts were needed. Lots of white smoke, steering freeplay and body roll. Not what I expected from my first F-car experience. The 308 was a high mile ratty beater that was already warm when I got behind the wheel. A very smooth 1-2 shifter, as was the case for the other gears. Most of the shift action resistance came from the metal gate. The TR (low mile Fly/tan) made me take my eyes off the road to look down at the gate for shifts when cold. When warm, again most of the feel was the stick clacking against the gate. I could live with that. I have never in my life owned an automatic transmission. Compared to my Toyotas I actually like the fact that F-car shifting is a more involving process. The car wants you to opptimize its drive line with robust acceleration, a strong handshake style shift and smooth clutch engagement. You sit up and pay attention to what you are doing at all times. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3254 Registered: 2-2001 |
Guys, I guess it's like this, "If a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass when he jumped." | ||
| Scott A. B. Collins (Scott)
Junior Member Username: Scott Post Number: 78 Registered: 6-2001 |
We've all had the good shift/bad shift experiences. Didn't buy a 348 specifically b/c of the shifting. Love the way my 360 shifts, but wouldn't necessarily call it super smooth or super fast. My M3 has a serious short shift kit in it, and it shifts great when it is really warm--when cold, its notchy and slow. Best shifting car I ever had was a '70 Datsun 2000. Different things rock our various worlds. Peace. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2767 Registered: 2-2001 |
Leave Ed alone, because he's honest you guys are gonna go off on him. He's funny as hell if you aren't anal retentive. When are you guys gonna get off of the Ferrari power trips. I got the 308 two years ago, I've put like 15K miles on it (remember the entire last year I've had the engine on it so that was almost all in the first year). I LOVE FERRARI, I even work for them which supports my what, that's right Ferrari addiction with going fast and buying faster parts for the 308. It's all I spend my own money on to be honest. BUT wake up, they shift notchy, they're a pain when not matched perfectly, my 4th gear crunches a bit when downshifting slowly, 2nd gear is a big problem for most (not me for some reason). Ferraris aren't perfect, if they were we probably wouldn't like them. I came out and said in my post that my jeep (250K miles on its piece of sh_t puegoet transmission, which is the worst trans ever used by jeep) shifts smoother. It's a friggin jeep, literally the furthest thing from a high performance street machine, and it shifts smoother. It's not just me either, I've been in a bunch of Ferraris, 12s and 8s, and experienced the same thing. Now someone's gonna post back, oh my Ferrari shifts perfectly smooth, how can you say such a jeep french trans could shift better, etc. Excluding a few lucky late model Fcar owners (note lucky as in even some of them are a bit interesting) most of you would be living in denial. Like Ferrari for what it is, don't pretend things about them are true that aren't. If it was perfect it would suck. As far as a Corvette trans, it reminds me of a dump truck I drove at my dad's work when I was young, and that is beautiful because how the hell could you ever break it. There is no doubt in your mind when you throw a powershift (something you'll never see in a Fcar) at 6000rpms that you aren't gonna leave the trans (now transaxle) on the road behind you. | ||
| William Badurski (Billb)
Junior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 83 Registered: 6-2001 |
I've been driving Daytonas for 25 years, and have had three. They are excellent shifting cars when the linkage is properly adjusted. No having to guess or look at the gate, as the lever springs easily to neutral between 2 and 3. Raced a coupe for years, and never missed a shift or had gear selection problems. My new TR was very stiff and notchy by camparison, but was much improved with synthetic Mobil 1 gear oil. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 613 Registered: 12-2001 |
I think that Ed's comments in general on other threads havent had any nice things to say about any f car. I expect negativity when I see Ed has responded to someones post. Lately all I hear from ed is how unreliable, overpriced and expensive a ferrari is to own and yet when selling his 308 in the ferrari ads section, I hear nothing about these problems. I even heard the word reliability being used to describe his 308 to prospective buyers. Make up your mind Ed. As far as Im concerned, your GTSi was bastardized by your "improvements". I dont care to hear your technical input when I have to listen to stupid comments on pretty much every post you make. I still cant believe you kept the corvair over the 308, what a mistake but then again, I guess scrap metal prices arent what they used to be. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3249 Registered: 2-2001 |
I have to agree with Ed in that the Ferrari trans has a lot to be desired in ease of shifting. They are stubborn at times in shifting when cold. But they are what they are and if you want to own and drive a Ferrari you have to accept it. No such thing as a perfect car. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1543 Registered: 9-2001 |
just to clarify the intention of the thread was more inline with the shift pattern diff and the clutch release level between cars | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2137 Registered: 2-2001 |
In my response I never mentioned a Corvette. I have always said that the Ferraris that I have driven have shifted horribly as compared to other cars. I still have that opinion. I have never driven a 355 so I cannot compare it with anything. I did not compare it to anything. I said that every Ferrari I have ever driven shifted horribly. This includes 308s 328s TRs BBs and Daytonas which is the worst. None of these cars shifted better than a Fiero which is not great either. I believe that my opinion is shared by many others as you can simply read the technical section and read all the complaints. I don't want to be negative but the facts are the facts. I am lucky that I get to drive thousands of makes and models and can get some real world experience with all makes of cars. I like Ferrari just as much as many of you do but hiding your head in the sand will not make it better. If anyone is happy with the way they shift then that is great, but I have given my opinion. The fact that this thread exists signifies that there is a problem with Ferrari shifting, right? | ||
| Dave Trbizan (Davidt)
New member Username: Davidt Post Number: 33 Registered: 1-2002 |
What i think Ed is trying to compare is cars of equal cost. In that repect he is right. The newer cars do shift better. He is not trying to take anything away from Ferrari. Ed, thanks for all the tech help. You are an asset to this board. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 727 Registered: 6-2001 |
Ferrari fixed the shifting problems with the later cars. My 348s didn't shift well, adn you had to get everything warmed up to shift into 2nd. The 355 is a lot more Japanese in its shifting, doesn't make much different, hot or cold, goes into gear. I had a Porsche (mid 80s) that third gear was harder than hell to get into if you were in a hurry, ended up replacing a lot of parts in the gearbox. I'm sure that the new corvette shifts better than Ed's 20 year old 308. I bet it doesn't shift better than a new 360. Ed, let's compare equals to equals, year for year. Art | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
Member Username: Fred Post Number: 654 Registered: 2-2001 |
One of my favorite things about my 308 is the way it shifts. Not at first of course but once it warms up I really like the feel. I love the sounds it makes and the satisfying snap it makes when I shift from 2nd to 3rd after winding it out to 7700 rpms. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
New member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 49 Registered: 9-2002 |
Easy boys, easy. No need to get defensive, every car has its pluses and minuses - no reason to get your panties in a twist. I think shifting is a subjective thing. *Personally* - I like to have a little more feedback than some other cars provide. A little 'notchiness,' the clunk and feel of certain shifters is a part of the experience that I relish. A smooth shifting car may be faster or better mechanically, but for driving feel and pleasure (and that's all that really counts in my book), something that evokes those pleasurable moments, like the F-car clutch/linkage, is worth any faults they might have associated with them. --Dan | ||
| David Feinberg (Fastradio2)
Junior Member Username: Fastradio2 Post Number: 189 Registered: 4-2002 |
Enough of this Corvette nonsense...Isn't the Ferrari forum? With all due respect Ed, if you have nothing nice to say about Ferraris, go to the Corvette board and bash us. I suspect that most of the folks on "this" board are quite passionate about their cars and fully understand that they are not "perfect" cars. I didn't buy any of the Ferraris I have owned expecting Honda or Toyota like reliability. It's getting a bit tiring hearing about the Ferrari "flaws"...No car is perfect, including the C5. So you say the Daytona shifts poorly...Can't speak to that, as I have never driven one. However, do you really think that the C5 has more style, passion or heritage that a Ferrari Daytona? I think not.... As to Ferrari shift quality...I love it!!! I look forward every moment to the feel of my BB gearbox. With the clutch and linkage adjusted properly, it has a fantastic feel. For that matter, better than any car I've ever driven, including a C5. Reality check...A Corvette will never, ever be "better" than a Ferrari. "That's just my opinion, but I may be wrong..." | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 536 Registered: 10-2001 |
Ed, I had a Fiero 10 years and it was the WORST shifting car! Tell me, if you've driven one, how does it compare to Ferraris? My 30 year old Europa shifts really well BTW. Easiest manual car I ever drove. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2136 Registered: 2-2001 |
I have said this a long time and anyone who drives a Ferrari and other cars will have to agree. Truth is truth. Notice I did not include the Corvette as one of the best shifting cars. I call them like I see them. I drove a 365 Daytona today. Probably the worst shifting and driving car I have EVER driven. No wonder people make kit cars. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 824 Registered: 2-2001 |
I dont know what Ed's talking about, b/c Corvettes has some of the worst shifters around... shifts are 1.5 miles long and notchy as crap... 85% of Eds posts are critisizing Ferrari and 15% are about convincing us that Corvettes are good by posting useless links to "America's Best Cars" and "JD Powers Quality Survery." LOL Ernesto | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 320 Registered: 4-2002 |
The early cars' shifters are pretty crappy, by most modern standards. However..... I much prefer them. New boxes, like in the C5 Corvette, are too smooth, and lack feel. The heavy, clunky shift in an old F-car leaves little doubt about what is happening. Another reason why I bought this rolling anacronism. | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 288 Registered: 4-2002 |
How sad.  | ||
| bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 1068 Registered: 4-2002 |
mitchell he became the troll when he bought his zo6 and sold his 308....nasty........... | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 287 Registered: 4-2002 |
When did you become the local forum troll? | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2134 Registered: 2-2001 |
I drive thousands of different cars with manual transmissions and I honestly have to say that Ferrari has the worst shifting cars I have ever driven. The Nissan Z cars are probably some of the best, even the Toyotas with cable operated shifters are slick as Owl poop. When will Ferrari get it right? | ||
| bruce wellington (Bws88tr)
Intermediate Member Username: Bws88tr Post Number: 1067 Registered: 4-2002 |
tom my other cars are all automatic, as for my tr, reverse is up, and i must push down and up the shifter so from 1st to reverse is noticable and i have no problem...(except when my wife drives it, grrrl bruce | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2766 Registered: 2-2001 |
I find the Ferrari only shifts well when it is being raced. When you go to shift at say above 5000rpms it works butter smooth and quite quick, just tolling around though it leaves quite a bit to be desired in the smoothness area, I still love it though. The Ferrari really shines at what it is made for, racing around. When I first got the 308 I drove it constantly, I don't think I drove the jeep once in the first month. When I went to drive the jeep following this it was a little uneasy, felt like it was gonna roll over, and once or twice I had to catch myself and not go for another gear (what would be reverse, when thinking it was 5th). After that though I never had a problem with jumping between the two. The jeep is more of a truck like setup, but is smoother around town and seems to have a better synchro system to be honest when shifted at low rpms (high is maybe 2500-3000rpms, that's screaming in the jeep), even though it doesn't in fact. I also have been shifting without the clutch with the jeep a lot lately, quite a bit of fun really and can be just as smooth, although with the heavy flywheel you have to wait a bit for the revs to come down when upshifting. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3024 Registered: 5-2001 |
I never had a problem with that! No I do not pay attention to that! No I do not think the shifter on the F is bad No I do not believe that you have to pay more attention that with any other car. Obviously you smoke the clutch on your Ford Station Wagon it will cost you next to nothing to relace it, vs the cost of the Ferrari. But then the clutch on a Porsche 996 is also $1400 so where is the big deal. | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 389 Registered: 11-2001 |
I get asked quite often "why do you take off in 2nd gear". | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1440 Registered: 9-2001 |
My BMW M5 shifts like a hot knife through butter whereas a Ferarri shifts like a soft _____ through a ... , well you know. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1539 Registered: 9-2001 |
I know many of us have other cars that have manual gearboxs. Do you guys find it hard to go back and forth between cars without having to pay special attention to clutch feel and shift pattern. I know I have to watch out when shifting into first in the f-car making sure not to go up into reverse where 1st is on my other car. |