| Author | Message | ||
| William Henderson (Billh)
New member Username: Billh Post Number: 43 Registered: 5-2002 |
DOH! | ||
| William Henderson (Billh)
New member Username: Billh Post Number: 42 Registered: 5-2002 |
ok... here is my first pic upload. this is the front of the motor lets see if this formatting thing works...  | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 180 Registered: 6-2002 |
Paul - 20 years ago I helped an old aircraft engineer (who use to race with Phil Hill in the 1950s) turbo charge his Dino. He held the patent on aircraft turbo's and subsequently on GM related turbos (worked at Garret Air Research). He did not want to reduce the compression ratio of the engine, nor tear the Dino engine apart to change pistons, so he added "water injection" to cool the charge and prevent dieseling. HOWEVER, instead of water, he used Vodka! This is a true story. He used Vodka because it added energy to the mix, yet its volatile nature led to evaporative cooling as it was injected. So I asked him, "What brand do you use?" He said, "It doesn't matter. The cheapest I can find. All Vodka is the same." Well, I questioned this statement, that "all Vodka is the same." His son, during college, worked in a bottling factory in Los Angeles. They would bring in 50 gallon stainless steel drums of vodka, and run various brand bottles through the machine to fill them from the same drum! Unlike scotch, or bourbon, which are aged in some proprietary wood, vodka is vodka is vodka. At least that was his opinion. Nonetheless, the turbocharged Dino ran great, and it cost very little to fill the plastic 2 gallon bottle of vodka that he had in the trunk. True story. Jim S. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 626 Registered: 12-2001 |
Ben, supercharge your 308. They can take the power, Look in the 308QV modification thread and you will see one. Beats fabrication nightmares putting in an incorrect engine. | ||
| Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
Junior Member Username: Brainsboy Post Number: 90 Registered: 5-2001 |
I would like to know if the block is the same as the 308's, or if at least the castings are close to being the same. It would be nice to supercharge my 308, but Im not sure the motors hac handle larger amounts of power. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 623 Registered: 12-2001 |
Thanks Martin | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2535 Registered: 12-2000 |
Let us know how it goes, might take many lbs of force to get off. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 335 Registered: 7-2002 |
my guess is there are pistons under the heads;) | ||
| William Henderson (Billh)
New member Username: Billh Post Number: 41 Registered: 5-2002 |
I am going to pull the heads off this weekend anyway to see whats inside. I will get pics of this as well. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 334 Registered: 7-2002 |
So is something like this very valuable or just an interesting find? Once running what would/could you do with it? Put it in a real ferrari? Put it in a kit car? Buy an empty Indy shell and drop it in there? Kind of seems like a waste to make a table out of it, but sure would be a cool conversation piece. My wife would never let me have an engine in the house! | ||
| Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
Junior Member Username: Brainsboy Post Number: 89 Registered: 5-2001 |
One thing is for sure, it would look good in my 308. | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 314 Registered: 4-2002 |
Wooden parts! Sounds like the aero engines we (RR) haul around the world for shows, mainly real casings but many wood or composite replica parts and ofetn not much internally. Also built for fitting trials or just visualisation studies. If it were mine I don't think I could resist at least doing a partial tear down to see what extent is functional. If it were 'real' I definitely would have to get it running. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2796 Registered: 2-2001 |
I was thinking, if 2.65L V-8s, or v8s in general were the only engine in Indy during this time period than chances are Ferrari did have a hand in this engine. I'm not an expert in this obviously though. When Ferrari beat Alfa Romeo for the first time in F1 (early 50s I think it was, maybe real late 40s), Enzo Ferrari said it was "like killing your mother" so I could easily see him wanting to give Alfa a little help down the road. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1525 Registered: 6-2001 |
How much did you pay for it if you dontmind me asking? im really curious. what parts is it missing? | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2793 Registered: 2-2001 |
They didnt have a shot of the engine so I couldn't check if it was a v6 like the f1 cars or a v8 like this, they did make a turbo engine though nevertheless and the car for Indy. I wish they had a shot of the engine. This is a really interesting topic that I doubt many know about. Everyone looks at Ferrari as so new to America. | ||
| William Henderson (Billh)
New member Username: Billh Post Number: 40 Registered: 5-2002 |
wow. so Enzo did have something to do with this engine...... the Marchives.com also stated the 89C was initially ferrari as well. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2789 Registered: 2-2001 |
It also had the 1986 Ferrari Indy car in the video. They said it was only built this year and is a turbocharged car (following suit of the turbo F1 cars). It looks just like an American Indy car painted Rosso Corsa, different from the F1 cars which is interesting. They said it was primarly built as a bargaining chip for Ferrari in formula 1. They were at this time making the switch to naturally aspirated engines again and the F1 sanctioning bodies had the idea that engines should be limited to 8 cylinders, Ferrari had already put a lot of work into making a 12 cylinder 3.5L engine so combining the time and money spent on that and the significance of the 12 cylinder to Maranello, Enzo wasn't going to hear him not being able to use his new engine. So, he built this Indy car and threatened to pull Ferrari out of F1 and enter in F1's then competition, Indy cars. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2788 Registered: 2-2001 |
I was watching one of my Ferrari DVDs this evening (bored after riding, haven't watched it in about a year) and I figured checking out the part about grand prix cars would be good. I found out some neat stuff. That Ferrari Indy special that Andreas posted is a 1952 375 that was entered in Indianapolis with Ascari driving. Apparently after Ferrari beat Alfa Romeo in F1 and they consequently pulled out, Ferrari was left with no one to race against with the 375 in F1 (all racing was now F2, which the 375 wasn't allowed in). At the urging of Chinetti they started an Indy car project to get American market appeal. A total of five 375 Indy Specials were produced, the one pictured being the actual race one. It qualified 31st, and spun out while in 7th place because of a failed wheel hub. After Indy it went back to factory and was used for experimentation and was rebodied, then back to the US where it was entered in mostly sprints, only fairing well at Daytona, it kind of floated around basically. In 1956 a private owner, Farina, entered it in Indianapolis once again, but this time it failed to qualify as he wasn't as good a driver and it was not really setup well for that type of racing anymore (less so than it was against 1952 Indy cars). BUT after this in later 1956 it then became big time in the Hill Racing circuit, becoming national champion of it being driven by none other than Carroll Shelby! In 1958 it was returned to Maranello where it was entered in the Europe vs. America at Monza finishing 13th. It was then rebodied again like the more current GP cars. It was then returned to Chinetti in 1960 as a display. Kind of interesting to hear about Ferraris Indy experience. | ||
| William Henderson (Billh)
New member Username: Billh Post Number: 39 Registered: 5-2002 |
Ben, what made me buy it? the words "alfa romeo" on the cam cover. I did remember also that there was an alfa indy car or F1 car in the early nineties. Vito told me that there were parts missing but I really didnt care. just wanted to make a really cool glass top table for my garage. you know, the kind to put forza magazines and a cigar humidor on. I think the plot just thickened for me when I read that Enzo might have his hand in this. as far as did they know what it was? yes. Vito told me it was from an indy car. didnt run. parts missing. taking space on his shop floor. what will I do with it? eh, turn it into my sitting area center piece table. what is it worth? have no idea. thought of putting it on evilbay just to see what it would fetch in the right hands...with the intention of keeping it anyway. (is that wrong?) but anyhow, I want to pull the camcovers off and have them glass beaded and repainted the black crackle finish. clean up the motor a bit, and build supports for the glass top. or should I leave it exactly as is???? Martin, I doubt he would have others but I could ask to find the source at which he got it and maybe find other goodies! | ||
| William Henderson (Billh)
New member Username: Billh Post Number: 38 Registered: 5-2002 |
guys, I hope to have some pics by this weekend. I will post them as soon as I borrow my girlfriends digital camera. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3037 Registered: 5-2001 |
http://www.marchives.com/March89CE_engine02.JPG click on that link Paul. Took me some time as well to figure that out. I like the headers, although, they could have twisted them a little more  | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2525 Registered: 12-2000 |
Maybe he was just talking about the engine and the urelated link is just of the car. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 614 Registered: 12-2001 |
Am I the only one who cant see the picture of the engine he bought? I clicked on the link but dont see an engine. help, I want to see it NOW! | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3033 Registered: 5-2001 |
yeah, I want to know too. Hey does that guy have more? | ||
| Ben Millermon (Brainsboy)
Junior Member Username: Brainsboy Post Number: 88 Registered: 5-2001 |
What made you buy something like that? Where did you find it, Did they know what it was when they sold it? What will you do with it? Any chance of know how much something like that costs. | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
New member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 30 Registered: 10-2002 |
     attached are a few pics from Ferrari's early Indy project, they're all taken at the track's museum | ||
| Tino (Bboxer)
Junior Member Username: Bboxer Post Number: 162 Registered: 8-2001 |
Andre, I think I saw the Ferrari Indy prototype last month during a visit to Maranello; it was in the larger room of the new Ferrari museum. | ||
| William Henderson (Billh)
New member Username: Billh Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2002 |
I was just out in the garage and it has a serial no. "0013" stamped on the inside of the "vee" of the block. http://www.carclassic.com/html/CC79.htm the car classic site claims that only 24 completed engines were made for the team. an interesting note that on my engine, there is some wooden parts that look like were being made for casting purposes. it looks like it was a development engine. as for the oil pan being gone. nope its there. I flipped it over to check. the distance between the center of the crankshaft and the bottom of the engine was so small that I had assumed that it was missing. so far from what I am reading, that this was a brainchild of Ferrari, developed of a MARCH engine but quickly abandoned and passed off to Alfa. | ||
| Andre Vieira (Goggles_pisano)
Junior Member Username: Goggles_pisano Post Number: 52 Registered: 5-2002 |
I refer you to Nigel Roebuck's response on the Ferrari Indycar project here.
In short, what Bill Sawyer said. Now what would be real cool would be to find the Alfa Romeo 156 Procar project that was abandoned... | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 458 Registered: 3-2002 |
maybe this is a dumb question but.....if its only missing a few internals (ie not blown up), then why don't you put it right and then put it into something. some other older racer with a blown up engine, or (flame away) a replica P4 .... | ||
| William Henderson (Billh)
New member Username: Billh Post Number: 36 Registered: 5-2002 |
well the story is my mechanic friend Vito in Lawrence, Massachusetts has been supporting my Alfa Romeo habit for some time. he had some decent parts cars. he bought a really sweet '95 164LS on auction and rebuilt it. he drove it for a while and sold it to a buddy of mine. while up there to pick up the car, I was poking around his shop. a Countach here, an alfa v6 there. low and behold against the wall of his shop is this crazy looking alfa V8. I asked him what it was and he told me an Alfa engine a friend of his brought over from italy. he told me it wasnt complete and that there were some internals missing. since he knew I loved alfa's he asked if I was interested in it. I said definitely and left that night thinking about it. it would make an awesome glass top table for the garage. couple of weeks later, vito called me up and gave me a price tag I couldnt turn down. so several nights ago my friend and I drove up in his pickup truck and put it in the back and drove home. (cant believe how light the motor is). two of us can handle it. its missing an oil pan and intake manifold. The headers are a work of art. I will try and take some digital pics for everyone. | ||
| Modified348ts (Modman)
Member Username: Modman Post Number: 410 Registered: 11-2001 |
Talk to Aussieman Wayne and maybe he can answer to that. | ||
| NGSVDO (Azspider)
Junior Member Username: Azspider Post Number: 94 Registered: 6-2001 |
So whats the rest of the story? Where did you buy the engine and what would possess you to buy an engine when you didn't know what it was? | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 330 Registered: 4-2002 |
The photo of that engine does sort of bear a family resemblence to the Ferrari (street car) V8. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 519 Registered: 2-2002 |
Here's a model of the 1952 car:  | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 518 Registered: 2-2002 |
The Alfa engine has been in the news lately because of Luca's threat to quit F1. The last time Ferrari threatened to leave F1 he contacted Jim Trueman at Truesports and had him send his March Cosworth to the Ferrari factory for testing. After checking out the competition Ferrari built their own chassis and engine and planned to have Truesports run Rahal in the car. The powers that be in F1 relented on Ferraris demands so the engine was given to Alfa Romeo. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 517 Registered: 2-2002 |
Yes, Ferrari ran modified versions of their GP car in the Indy 500. Ascari retired in 1952 and Chinetti failed to qualify in 1953. I believe there were two cars and one is in the Indy museum. Bret, you are right about Monza but you are off about ten years. Those races (there were two, I believe, 1957 & 1958) happened in the late Fifties. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2507 Registered: 12-2000 |
So what's the other Ferrari history? I don't think Ferrari ever ran Indy, did they? Did their engines ever run Indy? I didn't think so, but it looks like they did in this case. If historians have to rewrite history, don't you think this engine is worth major money? | ||
| William Henderson (Billh)
New member Username: Billh Post Number: 35 Registered: 5-2002 |
yup this is the engine. http://www.marchives.com/March89CE_engine02.JPG the article from grandprix.com claimed that this was enzos project before he passed away. very interesting. now where was the web site for programmable fuel injection...... | ||
| 89TCab (Jmg)
Member Username: Jmg Post Number: 287 Registered: 9-2001 |
I would also add that if it was the 91 miller-alfa, it would have been driven by Danny Sullivan who finished fourth in Australia and it was their best finish before shutting down the program. - JMG | ||
| 89TCab (Jmg)
Member Username: Jmg Post Number: 286 Registered: 9-2001 |
FIAT bought Alfa in 87 and Alfa was in Indy from 88-91 so while it is possible that it was developed at some level by Ferrari, more likely it was their own in house project. Either way, you can look at http://www.marchives.com/ to see if it was the same engine that was in the March-Alfa circa 89. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2776 Registered: 2-2001 |
I'm not a hardcore Fcar history buff, but I can only think of Ferrari and Indy when in the 60s I think it was, when Indy cars and F1 cars were at pretty much the same technological and mechanical point, and hence were raced against each other in Monzanapolis and the likes. They weren't so different back then, but that was quite awhile ago. They were talking about Maserati (Ferrari) making Indy engines though recently, so I wouldn't be surprised if this was one of those type of deals. Definitely very cool either way. I bet you could make a 308 pretty fast with that engine...hint hint | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2499 Registered: 12-2000 |
dang interesting, looks like we have another history project for FerrariChat.com. This could be a real find. Think of it, a Ferrari engine in the Indy 500! | ||
| William Henderson (Billh)
New member Username: Billh Post Number: 34 Registered: 5-2002 |
ok. so this is my start of my research on this engine. I bought it and its sitting in my garage. this is what I know about it up to now: 2.65 litres v-8 turbocharged. black cam covers with alfa romeo written on it. some kind of coil packs on the spark plugs 700hp made in late 80's to race in early 91. supposedly on the miller genuine draft alfa car. http://www.grandprix.com/ft/ftng034.html from this link it says that ferrari was the originator. another source claimed that an alfa romeo museum curator stated that the car was an embarrasment to alfa romeo and is kept out back and in storage. the engine, he claims, have been entirely an alfa project. does anyone have any insight or history on this engine?? |