| Author | Message | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2850 Registered: 2-2001 |
HP sells cars, torque wins races. I like Ferraris approach, but Tim does have a point, look at the Enzo, it is an exercise of needing displacement and torque. The Ferrari setup is generally more favorable in a road race though over the relatively low revving big engines. Big torque comes with a heavy engine though, always remember that. I personally like Ferrari's 8cyl setup now, does the job well. Vans were definitely the first stoner vehicles, in particular the VW Bus, lol. My point is that it is the first car that comes to mind with 420 in the name, hence its appeal to stoners everywhere. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1559 Registered: 6-2001 |
Variable valve timing wont adjust lift and duration though, which you generally need more of to make power. The fact of the matter is the more torque you have the faster the car will accelerate. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1558 Registered: 6-2001 |
Bret, the chevy "Blazer" was the first stoner car. I also thought the beetle was the 1st overtly gay atuomobile. | ||
| J Claxton (Clax)
New member Username: Clax Post Number: 8 Registered: 10-2002 |
Frankie, "...is it September 03 yet?" I'll definitely be asking myself that very question every morning when I wake up. I can't wait to unleash 500hp with 4WD. Should be a hoot. The actual production car design is going to be released in March 03 at the Geneva Auto Show, so I guess that will help bridge the gap until September. From what I have seen of the quality of the Murcielago, I have a whole new outlook on Lambos. The Audi influence appears to be very positive. The fit & finish is incredible, and definitely is on par with what should be expected from a car of that value. I expect that the L140 will be in the same league of vehicle quality. | ||
| Francisco J. Quinones (Frankie)
Junior Member Username: Frankie Post Number: 61 Registered: 8-2002 |
nice Clax,is it sep.'03 yet? lol Mitch  | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 202 Registered: 4-2002 |
Tim seems to think that 288 lb-ft is not enough TQ to move the car easilly. However, with the 4.36 (or was it 4.41) rear gears it compares very favorably with a car with 375 lb-ft with only 3.42 rear gears. By the time you add in the weights of the cars and the rolling radius of the rear tires, you end up in a statistical dead heat. Tim also seems to think that these engines don't idle very well,... I can attest that the idle qualities of my F355 are exemplary. The biggest difference between the F360 engine and the F355 engine is the dual resonance intake system that boosts the midrange TQ of the F360 engine by large amounts. This manifests itself as a change in tone quality: the F355 has a singular tone resonance, while the F360 has a dual tone (and some might say less pure--but not me) resonance. By the way, Tim, the F355 and F360 engines DO have a VTEC-like system. The valve timing is altered just above 3,500 RPMs and the rumblings deap within are noticibly altered. Finally, Tim, because Ferrari puts 6 real gears in the tranny, there actually is better acceleration in 6th gear on the interstate cruising at 70 than in that big TQ monster on the same road at the same speed. I could debate all day whether this is a good thing or a bad thing, but rest assured that allowing 5th gear to do 120 MPH to 150 MPH duty and 6th from 150 MPH to 180 MPH is much better than having 5th gear do 120 MPH to 180 MPH duty, leaving 6th as an economy gear. Superlegal speeds are more accessible in my F355 than in my Corvette. The F355 makes better music tooooooooooo | ||
| J Claxton (Clax)
New member Username: Clax Post Number: 7 Registered: 10-2002 |
Frankie, The L140 Color Combo I ordered is Metallic Yellow with Black Interior. The L140 colors are yet to be finalized, but they are probably going to maintain the current Lambo color choices. If they do alter the colors for the L140, I will have plenty of time to change it. I am expecting delivery around September 2003. | ||
| Joel Belser (Driver)
New member Username: Driver Post Number: 10 Registered: 9-2002 |
Bret, the market researchers that US companies use found out that most SUV buyers are in fact insecure about their driving ability! Maybe"alphas"that try too hard... | ||
| Rijk Rietveld (Rijk365gtb4)
Junior Member Username: Rijk365gtb4 Post Number: 70 Registered: 1-2002 |
This is going to be interesting, I want to be rolled over to the 420. However, I expect many people on the waiting list for a spider will do so. This will screw up the existing list. If you still want the 360, you can get it earlier, if you want the 420, you will get it later. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1622 Registered: 9-2001 |
bob, be careful we don't want FML's lawyers here | ||
| Francisco J. Quinones (Frankie)
Junior Member Username: Frankie Post Number: 56 Registered: 8-2002 |
excellent Clax!what color combo? | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2842 Registered: 2-2001 |
They say the Mini Cooper is the first overtly gay automobile, SUVs are for alpha males, etc, so along those lines, it just dawned on me that the 420 would be the first universal stoner car. I don't know that there are that many stoners with that type of dough though, they're more prone to living in vans down by the river the last time I checked. Generally the higher you rev, the more HP all things being equal. It is a very complex situation obviously, but Ferraris are setup along these lines from the factory. There are countless variables to be taken into account of course and they would take all week to type. But, basically they're not modding the torque when they rev higher, they're just getting a few more HP when done right. Personally I like the stock new cars, but they are all pretty much capable or running up to 9 grand and on the track there would be benefits of course to this. Is it worth it for the increased engine wear on an engine setup for a different peak in power, that's for you to decide. | ||
| jake diamond (Rampante)
New member Username: Rampante Post Number: 15 Registered: 4-2002 |
Clax, they better rollover those who are on the 360 waiting list ! Imagine waiting a couple of years and then being told to go to the back of the line again. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1557 Registered: 6-2001 |
I dont see why some of you want a high redline. It would make the car bad to drive on the street, you can either have low end torquem or high end hp, not both (unless you adopt some sort of VTEC-like system) . some people think that the 360 has alot of torque...it doesnt. 280 something lbf/ft is not anything special. If they could build a engine that had alot of torque and hp, with a redline at 7k, that would be more useable because you wont have to rev it way up to get into the powerband, and it will also be more reliable. Sure it would sound cool and all, but it wont idle well because it wont be designed to run at such low rpms. | ||
| J Claxton (Clax)
New member Username: Clax Post Number: 6 Registered: 10-2002 |
Frankie, I've already got my deposit down for the L140. It looks like the new Lambo is going to be one heck of a car. They are gunning for just over 3000 pounds, and 500 horsepower V10. Does anyone know if there are any Ferrari dealers taking deposits on the 420 yet? Are they just going to roll-over the existing 360 deposits? | ||
| Francisco J. Quinones (Frankie)
New member Username: Frankie Post Number: 49 Registered: 8-2002 |
Dave i thought the 355 is a little bit more than a worked up 348 longer wheelbase etc.or is it really that similar?i kinda feel they are all evolutions of the 308 but... also in the nov. issue of the dupont registry in page 123 Lamborghini Atlanta is taking deposits fot the L-140 "baby Murcielago" for fall 2003 delivery. | ||
| bob snow (Resnow)
New member Username: Resnow Post Number: 29 Registered: 5-2001 |
From Nov FML: Despite the continued popularity and records sales figures for the 360 Modena and Spider, speculation has already begun in Europe over the configuration of the type�s replacement, supposedly slated for introduction late next year. The most common speculation centers on a cosmetically radically facelifted version of the 360 Modena. Supposedly there is some concern in Maranello about Ferrari dropping behind its rivals, which include the shortly to be released "baby" Lamborghini L140. In addition, there is concern over the lukewarm reception that the facelifted 575M Maranello has received since its launch earlier this year. This has allegedly pushed Ferrari into contemplating greater changes than originally envisioned. Supposedly the new car will be fitted with Ferrari's new 4.2-litre V8 engine which is already fitted to the new Maserati Coupe and Spyder. However to keep Ferrari above Maserati, the engine is expected to be tuned to produce around 465 hp, 75 hp more than in the Maserati. Styling will be overhauled, the 360 Modena has come in for criticism for its bland looks and a much more distinctive styling is expected, possibly drawing cues from the new Enzo supercar. It is believed that the new car is scheduled to make its debut in September next year, several months after its Lamborghini rival. | ||
| Scotty (Pzerowaster)
New member Username: Pzerowaster Post Number: 29 Registered: 10-2002 |
I think the timing chains (like in the Maser mote) may be a very welcome addition to most Ferrari fans. No need to explain why to the folks in this forum. But that servicing took some serious explaining to my spouse, who couldn't understand why our LT-1 Vette went over 100K miles before we punted it and had nothing but tires and brake pads, and our 348 of the same vintage had 14 grand worth of wrenching performed by the time it had 25K. I'm looking to purchase another car of Italian origin, and her first question is always "do you have to have that one taken all apart to change that stupid belt thingy?" Sigh...  | ||
| VS (Vs1)
New member Username: Vs1 Post Number: 9 Registered: 10-2002 |
388 Modena. Great analysis Ben - I like your take on this one. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Junior Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 96 Registered: 6-2002 |
I belive this is exactly what should happen I'd expect to see a 400Modena, or even 388Modena (that'd be cool ;) De-stroked, 5v head, up compression and agressive cam and electronics tuneing. 110hp/Litre is 427hp in 3.88L guise. (360's engine makes 109hp/L. I'll give 'em another ponie even given the near stalemate between both technology and emmisions increases.) I'd be expecting the new 360 to be in that range (along with likely 305/315section rear tyres! ;D) Best! Ben. "It would make more sense to me if Ferrari were to de-stroke the 4.2, raise the rev limit and tune for more high end power. This would make for a more exciting motor more suitable for Ferrari. " | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 291 Registered: 4-2002 |
And the big question, will the car that costs 2x the amount be faster than the new Viper or even the C6 z06 that will come out shortly at 1/5th the cost? ;) I think we all know the answer to that question. Or, at least Ed will make sure we do! Lol! | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 747 Registered: 6-2001 |
Guys: Just spoke to my Ferrari source: he says that Ferrari will NEVER use Maserati parts. Could go the other way, but never that way. The next Ferrari does have chain cam drives, not belts, and that must be where this rumour started. Displacement is about right, but not a Masuer motor. Art | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2800 Registered: 2-2001 |
I know this is like one of those "duh" statements, but modern cars are amazing. I'm not even 20 years old yet (gettin close) and cars have changed so much since I was little. I barely rememeber the tail end of those big clunker lincolns and the likes. The Enzo puts out 660hp in a reliable street form, friggin amazing. Here we're talking almost 500hp out of a reliable 4.0L, amazing again. HP numbers like this used to be reserved for big block chevy's or SBC's with a blower, running tempermental, almost track only setups, nothing you would drive everyday anywhere you wanted. Amazing. | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
Junior Member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 55 Registered: 9-2002 |
Dave, I think that is exactly what they are doing, 9,000 RPM's suitable torque and 475 Hp, the little lambo will have 500 hp... | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 264 Registered: 1-2002 |
It would make more sense to me if Ferrari were to de-stroke the 4.2, raise the rev limit and tune for more high end power. This would make for a more exciting motor more suitable for Ferrari. Dave | ||
| A.Tonokaboni (Senna1994)
Junior Member Username: Senna1994 Post Number: 54 Registered: 9-2002 |
Chris, right on the money, my dealer told me the samething. However, I heard that the motor will put out about 460hp but be a 4.0L or 3.8L with the 5 Valve head. The Baby Lambo is definately on was in R&T last month along with the Audi RSR which will share the same platform and a detuned V10 of the same Lambo engine | ||
| Chris Richardson (Boozy)
Junior Member Username: Boozy Post Number: 227 Registered: 11-2001 |
Actually the engine in the Maserati is based on the engine being designed for the successor to the 360. It was originally designed for the new 360. They made a few changes to make it more reliable like using timing chains. It is not that the engine for the new Ferrari will have a Maserati engine, but that the Maserati already has a Ferrari engine. | ||
| Joseph (Mojo)
Junior Member Username: Mojo Post Number: 70 Registered: 9-2002 |
I am sorry for leaving out 348's totally an accident.Love them all | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 466 Registered: 3-2002 |
don't know david, but autocar had some spy pics of it in last issue. question best put to allan fiedler, he's our lambo expert. | ||
| Rijk Rietveld (Rijk365gtb4)
Junior Member Username: Rijk365gtb4 Post Number: 61 Registered: 1-2002 |
I have a source (my brother in Europe) that quotes 475 hp for the 420 and that the baby Lambo shows up in the design for the exhibit stand for the Detroit show. He also knows the new name for the Lambo | ||
| David J. Smith (Darkhorse512)
New member Username: Darkhorse512 Post Number: 12 Registered: 10-2002 |
Ross Don't you think the baby Lambo is a pipe dream? It has been a rumor since the early '90's. To date, no car has been made. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 464 Registered: 3-2002 |
just read another article last night in autocar by andrew frankel. he was reviewing the maser cabrio and said something like 'ferrari have done a masterful job on this engine, it is already destined to be one of the alltime greats'.....so be still those of you who think you would be getting a warmed over maser engine. and i do think they will go for the 460hp range since they are having to fight off the upcoming baby lambo which will be in that range.... the rest of the car got panned though.... | ||
| David J. Smith (Darkhorse512)
New member Username: Darkhorse512 Post Number: 11 Registered: 10-2002 |
3.0, 3.2, 3.4, 3.5, 3.6. 4.2 seems like a big jump in size. Bigger than 2.4 to 3.0. in the '70's If my number speak makes sense to you F-heads*, wouldn't you think the final production model change for a 360 replacement would be 4.0 at the most? The factory may be trying out new electro/inertia things with that Maserati lump. *Ferrari Head | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 312 Registered: 4-2002 |
Yes Joseph, if you are going to leave one out (just a slip I guess) then it should be the 355 as that car was just a worked up 348! | ||
| Roel de Fouw (Spawnz)
New member Username: Spawnz Post Number: 43 Registered: 6-2002 |
Joseph: Are you discriminating against the 348 by leaving it out of the evolution line? Shame on you! | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2791 Registered: 2-2001 |
Yeah, the 456 and 550 are real similar blocks, very different heads though. Still a good point, I see what you're saying. I wonder how this 420 block will compare to the 3 series block, which hasn't really changed since the 308 excluding a little different aluminum mix(put a 355 block next to a 308 block and most people wont be able to tell the difference). I saw a cutaway of the Maserati block in Forza though and it was noticeably different (read modern). Interesting. | ||
| Joseph (Mojo)
Junior Member Username: Mojo Post Number: 69 Registered: 9-2002 |
The evolution of ferrari 246,308,328,355,360,420, do you see the pattern here? there is no replacement for cubic displacement. When will they learn, get it over with V16 8400cc's (two 420's = lot's of power, and high rpm's.) Yes,No? | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 828 Registered: 2-2001 |
I am 145.79% sure it will not be turbo... Ernesto | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Junior Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 58 Registered: 9-2002 |
I'm still curious - will it be NA? --Dan | ||
| Red Lindell (Redhead)
Junior Member Username: Redhead Post Number: 65 Registered: 12-2001 |
Bretm--"Granted everybody uses engine sharing and Ferrari did this a lot back in the day" Do the #'s 456m and 550m ring a bell...You only make a car line stonger by using other items within your "familia". Less product development, lower cost, even though F- will charge more-- and better durablility. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2787 Registered: 2-2001 |
This one would definitely be faster, but one has to wonder if you would rather have a normal 360 with a solely Ferrari engine, than have what is essentially a shared engine with different valve covers. Granted everybody uses engine sharing and Ferrari did this a lot back in the day, but interesting nonetheless to see how it will work. I just wonder how fast this thing is gonna be, 450hp is an aweful lot for a car that is devastatingly fast with 395 and an even larger torque difference. Should be quite the mover, which is good as now Pcars might not kick Ferraris ass all the time. It's good to see these new cars come out, if Ferrari keeps it up the 355s will be in my price range sooner. I had hopes of getting the 308 up to 360 modena like HP, 395 is doable if done right with a good deal of money invested an no chance of passing emissions, I think 450hp is getting out of the 3.0L naturally aspirated capabilities on the street. Damn Ferrari. | ||
| David (Supraoz)
Junior Member Username: Supraoz Post Number: 152 Registered: 9-2001 |
The Maserati engine when built and tested at the Ferrari dyno produced more than 450 horses. Its my understanding that they detuned the engine and put it in the Maserati and now will be putting it in the new Ferrari model. While in Italy last month I got a chance to see this test. It sounded awesome and different to a normal 360 or Challenge car.    | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2532 Registered: 12-2000 |
sorry, I meant 348 and 355, not 355 and 360. Geez, my mind is elsewhere today, I'm fired. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Junior Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 56 Registered: 9-2002 |
The big question...NA or turbo? --Dan | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Junior Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 55 Registered: 9-2002 |
The big question: will it be NA or turbo'd? --Dan | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 193 Registered: 4-2002 |
The 95 F355s had 380 HP, 96-99 F355s had 375 The F360 Modenas have 395. I don't see a very big change here (in engine power at the crank). Both are in the 109 HP/litre catagory. However, the F360 is lighter, the TQ curve is much fatter in the mid range, and there is less loss from the flywheel to the road==considerably faster even before you get to chassis dynamics,... | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2526 Registered: 12-2000 |
There was a big HP jump between the 355 and 360. | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 57 Registered: 8-2001 |
Bret-- You might be right, I'm only repeating what I heard... Eli -- I heard no changes in the body style. But there was some speculation that a navigation system could become available as an option (one I would certainly pass on!) | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2782 Registered: 2-2001 |
I can't picture it having 460hp even if that's what they say. Ferrari has made it tradition now to update cars with a boost of say 25hp midway through production of the model. A 65hp and chances are an even larger torque increase, make the normal 360 seem tame. This would be stupid IMO, you're making the 360 outdated. I would more expect to see a change comparable to the 550 vs the 575. At 460hp it would be creeping up in the F40 performance area, how times have changed. A full blown race car for the street performing just a touch better than a comfortable street car. | ||
| ELI (Titanium360)
Junior Member Username: Titanium360 Post Number: 212 Registered: 4-2002 |
Jay, any change in the body? | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Member Username: Caribe Post Number: 434 Registered: 2-2001 |
I wander if the 360 prices will drop to about the same differential as other F-cars with bigger, more powerful engine, upgraded models. Something alone the lines of the TR, and the 512TR. The 512TR still seems to be holding about $30k to $40K over the later year TRs. Maybe the 420 will be at least that much more expensive, to maintain the 360 prices level. Perhaps I might be able to get in a 360 sooner than I expected, and that it is always a good thing. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 463 Registered: 3-2002 |
i don't know what you would call it then martin, since maser is owned and managed by ferrari, and they put the engine into the 4200gt, couldn't you just as easily call it a ferrari engine? anyway, by the time they are finished breathing on it and giving it 460hp, don't think anybody will be looking sideways at it..... | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3032 Registered: 5-2001 |
If they put the Masserati engine in the car the price should drop! | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 462 Registered: 3-2002 |
no mention of price, but if i were them i would not say a thing about that until all the 360's were paid for because otherwise everybody will walk on those...... | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 56 Registered: 8-2001 |
Ross, thanks. Also, I heard the pricing should not change much from the 360. Did you hear same? | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 460 Registered: 3-2002 |
yes, i started one about a week ago. same story i heard except that they will be available in europe by q3 03.... | ||
| Jay P. Ross (Eilig)
Junior Member Username: Eilig Post Number: 55 Registered: 8-2001 |
I don't know if this has already been discussed or not, but I'll risk posting anyway. Just spoke with someone in Italy who confirmed there will be a 420 Modena in 2004. The engine should have right around 460 hp, is what they are saying. The only remaining question is exactly when production will begin. Some think it could happen before end of MY 2003. Oh boy.... |