| Author |
Message |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts
Post Number: 2590
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 5:24 pm: | |
I run AVS's on my BMW and as soon as my Ferrari tires run through, guess what I'm getting for the 328. $300 tires for $130. I just bought 245/40-17's for the BMW and they were only $130 from Discount Tire. Thier list is $210, but I looked them up on tirerack.com and went in there with their $138 price, the guy says he'll beat that and gave me $130. Only thing is I had to pay for replace and balance. Retail tire stores will match or beat internet prices. The AVS sports are just awesome tires. Questionable in the rain though. My fronts last 25k miles and rears only 13k, but I drive them really really hard. |
Robert McNair (Rrm)
Junior Member
Username: Rrm
Post Number: 148
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 4:39 pm: | |
I thought of this thread last night as I read the following passage this is from the 11/02 issue of car and driver in Csaba Csere's column
"The old ferrari 348 is a perfect example of a car that achieved a lofty skidpad number-0.90g-but was diabolical on the road. Not only did the ferrari transition into pronounced oversteer if in midcorner you lifted off the throttle, but when you reapplied the gas to balance the car as you might on an older 911, the 348's tail swung out even farther." As with anything Jens practice makes perfect. |
Modified348ts (Modman)
Member
Username: Modman
Post Number: 415
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, October 31, 2002 - 3:25 am: | |
Yes AVS Sports, the tread pattern others are trying to get as close as possible to duplicate a winning pattern. For as much as I beat the crap out of the tires they actually last more than I expected. Is Martin an I the only ones with AVS's on our 348's? no wonder why yall havin difficulties, who knows..... |
Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member
Username: Miami348ts
Post Number: 3065
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 8:05 am: | |
Jens,
my recent track experience with my 348 is the following:
1.put spacers on the car. handles much better. call Koenig in Munich and get them 30mm in the rear and 15mm or 20mm in the front!
2. The car gives you a lot of warning before it leaves you. You must have missed them. On the track test yoursaelf to the limit of the car. slow to learn the warning signals.
3. when the car goes correct but don't over correct. Jon had some great advise there. When the platform of the car gets loose and out of balance is when accidents happen.
4. where to try all of that? Track days! This is best learned on the track with good run-off areas. Never on the roads. On the public road I drive only 80% to capability of the car (likely more the driver) if I want to push something.
5. tires are also a key! If you have PZero, as far as I am concerned they suck! Worst driving experience I had was with PZeros. Try Yokohama AVS Sport. A great rain tire as well. You will probably need that more than a good dry tire and the PZero is neither in my opinion.
|
Modified348ts (Modman)
Member
Username: Modman
Post Number: 413
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 29, 2002 - 12:02 am: | |
Jens, I'm not sure how you reacted going through the chicane as far as how much movement you had on the steering wheel and when you released and gased through the chicane, I threshold brake just before the chicane and ease the car through it and pushing the car out of it. I think your steering response if off since the cars steering is very touchy going through a tight chicane. You don't want to lift the throttle after the turn, you do it before the turn and gas out of the turn. Now going through a chicane and an apex is 2 different type of reactive driving but similar in the way you gas out of it. You can look online under driving or track schools to find one near your area, you won't really have a good opportunity to practice doing apexes on public streets without taking the chance of wrecking your car or hurting someone or something, you WILL lose control at first learning your limits of your car then after that you will lose all fear and feel confident about your cars handling.. |
James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member
Username: Jselevan
Post Number: 183
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 1:24 pm: | |
The original question posed by Jens was "...where can you practice these things..." I have found that those who live in cold climates with frequent snow can practice skids and donuts whenever there are a few inches on the ground. Find a large parking area, as in a shopping mall. Late at night or early in morning is a good time. Get a beat up Volkswagon, or other variety, and have fun. You can really learn a great deal at low speed, without compromising your's or the car's safety. I use to drive through Schenley Park in Pittsburgh whenever the snow fell (frequently), and tried to lower my lap times. A few wheels and tires later, I was pretty good at controlling the rear end. It does give one an appreciation for anticipating and sensing changes in car attitude.
Jim S. |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts
Post Number: 2552
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 12:52 pm: | |
All our Spec. RX7's have to be 1980-1985's with the 12A's. Very few mods except for saftey (roll cage, racing seat, fire system, window net) and suspension (race shocks, race springs, and sway bar). They handle really well. I can lap MSR about 4 seconds faster than in my 328 with twice the HP.
Here's a few more "fun" videos...
http://www.spec7.org/videos/rob_turn1spin2002.mpg
http://www.spec7.org/videos/180spinwetpants2001.mpg
http://www.spec7.org/videos/TWS_turn4_spins2002.mpg
http://www.spec7.org/videos/TWS_turn4_wetspin2001.mpg
...and maybe I should of spun on this one, luckily these cars are a dime a dozen. I only lost the chasis and front left suspension. Mainly just the hours and headache of rebuilding another one.
http://www.spec7.org/videos/hallett_crash2002.mpg |
Chris A. (Asianbond)
Junior Member
Username: Asianbond
Post Number: 78
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 6:57 am: | |
Rob, were you driving a 79 rotary rocket in that video? I doubt you would had been the same situation with a 348 since it has much handling limits. Rx-7's are notorious for twitchy tails....but I still loved my past 7's |
Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Junior Member
Username: Jh280774
Post Number: 109
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 4:50 am: | |
Jon and Modman,
After all I think I did the same mistake as Hans. As far as I can remember I steered in the opposite direction when the car came back. I was just too slow to do so because everything happened so fast. But what should I do with the throttle during the whole process? As I was just anxious because going to fast in that chicane (Adenauer Forst on the Nürburgring again! Did the same mistake with my Z3 before) I lifted the throttle after the first left corner (Then comes an even tighter right corner) to even do the next corner afterwards in the opposite direction. When then steering in the right corner the car just broke out due to the change from left to right corner and lifting the throttle in between, I guess!
Should I step on the throttle when correcting the spin again or just ignore it? A lot of things to do in just a break of a second...
It needs practise I suppose. By the way I have spacers in front and behind and I use Bridgestone tires.
Con saluti cordialissimi,
Jens Haller
P.S. Scott, Would still be great to hear the Tubi with your 348. Please send me the file when recorded!!!
P.S.II Rob, Great video. |
Modified348ts (Modman)
Member
Username: Modman
Post Number: 412
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, October 27, 2002 - 12:10 am: | |
When the 348 rear end breaks out under 70mph you can control it with practice but over that speed, your gonna need more than experience. The right tire, ground condition etc., still would take more, good luck... The rear end can be squirley but it is easily controlable at low speeds under 70 but you need really good concentration, I'm not sure of the pause way but you want to ease off the gas slowly to get the rear end to stop pushing and most importantly swing the wheel where you want to go and if you go too far you are gonna swing the opposite way till you get the wheel straight where you want to go and the 348 steering is very responsive compared to a lot of cars I've driven. If you really want to practice on this you can do it on an open track or a private lot, that's how I learned to tame my 348 to my command, I love the way it handles regardless of what anyones says, I must have the right combo of tires and skills to match the car cause I can get the car literally sliding almost 40 degrees on a turn and get it back on track, it's very hard to do because when the car returns the steering is touchy and it wants to go the other way on the return but man you have to concentrate on the wheel moving it very slowly when straightening it out. You can take a course on this on how to recover and drift your car on sharp turns, a lot of fun and well worth it esp. if you have a car you don't want to wreck from not knowing how to handle a car with such power. When I took my course most cars were rear wheel drive cars and mostly imports but a Ferrari, even more fun.. When I take my buddies out for a drive, man they •••• bricks and the looks on their faces, priceless! he he... oh, one advice, don't practice on public streets... |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 270
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 8:33 pm: | |
Hans,
By definition if the car is coming back to you it has already stopped spinning in it's original direction and your instructor is correct in saying you should already be taking the correction out and returning to neutral.
Tank slappers are usually (not always) a result of being constantly behind on the correction and this means being behind on the pause and counter correction.
By the way, the speed at which Rob's spin took place would all but make it impossible to save, except for the Schumacher's of the world.
You get and A+ for effort Rob.
Jon
|
Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member
Username: 4re_gt4
Post Number: 340
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 7:03 pm: | |
Hmmm.... This is opposite advice to what I recently got at a driving school. I got in a "tank slapper" situation in the skid car, and the instuctor said I kept the correction too long. He said I need to start unwinding the wheel as soon as the car begins to come back. |
Scotty (Pzerowaster)
New member
Username: Pzerowaster
Post Number: 25
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 3:08 pm: | |
Hi Jens,
Like Frank said, the spacers are the trick. They worked well for me anyway. I used 30 mm I believe, and it also made the car look cooler because it makes the tires fill out the fenders. Especially from the rear. I also run Pzeros. By the way, I have a friend of mine working on that sound file of my exhaust. Should have it in about a week.
Cheers!
Scotty
P.S. Great video Rob! Excitement on my laptop! |
Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator
Username: Rob328gts
Post Number: 2543
Registered: 12-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 11:14 am: | |
Here's a good example of me over correcting and not pausing. This is on a high speed sweeper and not a chicane, but I think the same principles...
http://www.spec7.org/videos/MSR_rob_spin2002.mpg
That's good advice about pausing. I've never thought about it before. As you can see in my video, I'm opposite locking in both directions, but never pausing and letting it settle.
As for the advice into the chincane, I think what Jon talks about is good once the tail gets happy. I think to prevent it in the first place you should...
1) Sometimes you have to go slow in order to go fast. Get the speed down entering the chincne to the right speed.
2) Unless you're to the level of trail braking, the safest is always get your braking done in a straight line.
3) Once you're on the gas, gentley apply it and stay on it through the turn. You can throw much of your traction out the window just by lifting. |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1450
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 9:43 am: | |
The tail happiness of the eary 348s was cured with the later models with a wider rear track and PZero tires. You can widen the rear track of earlier models with spacers you can buy from various sources. |
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 295
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 9:23 am: | |
Jens,
the 348 has always been a rear happy car. It has been noted by both Car and Driver and Road and Track that the car breaks loose just thinking about it. There a thread about this not too long ago. 348's run a lot of toe in the alignment so the contact patch of the tires is less on the inside around a turn causing tire spin and the dreaded 'Oh Sh*t!" |
Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Junior Member
Username: Jh280774
Post Number: 108
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, October 26, 2002 - 9:09 am: | |
Jon,
Thanks a lot! Might be possible that I might have missed the pause. As I just said everything happended very quickly and I was a bit overhelmed from the car�s tendency to break out without a warning. I think the 348tb is a great car to use on the track but if it finally looses traction it�s quite difficult to recover due to it�s mid engine design. My Z3 tends to swing much slower and can be tamed with the wheel quite easily. On the other hand it�s not half the fun and sound you get from the Ferrari.
Con saluti cordialissimi,
Jens Haller
|
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 267
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 7:21 pm: | |
Jens,
If I understand how you described the spin you started to lose the back end and then corrected but ended up spinning in the opposite direction you initially started spinning. If that is the case it can only mean one thing.
Most likely you corrected properly but what you didn't do was wait for the car to stop spinning in the original direction before taking the correction out. This is a mistake many people make in haste.
World Rally Champion Vic Elford has a term called "CPR" he uses to teach students to recover a spin. Here is the sequence:
1) Correct
2) PAUSE (wait for the car to stop spinning in the original direction)
3) Recover (take the correction out)
It sounds as though you skipped step 2. Usually the result of not pausing and waiting for the car to stop spinning is that the counter-correction spins the car in the opposite direction when the car does regain traction because you have the front wheels turned. Some people refer to this as a "tank slapper" which is borrowed from motorcycle technology.
It is also possible that you did pause but took too much correction out though that usually doesn't spin the car but only destabilize it momentarily.
If you find that you are in the same situation again remember to PAUSE on the second spin (the one in the opposite direction) before taking out the correction. However that being said it is much harder to do this on the second try as the car has become highly destabilized.
Hope this helps.
Regards,
Jon P. Kofod
1995 F355 Challenge #23 |
Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Junior Member
Username: Jh280774
Post Number: 107
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, October 25, 2002 - 6:50 pm: | |
Just wanted to know what exactly is to do when a 348 breaks out after lifting the throttle in a chicane!
Would propose the following:
1. Put your foot back on the throttle firmly!
2. Countersteer the wheel
3. When the back swings to the opposite direction quickly (!) put the steering wheel back in neutral position
Hope that should bring the car back in a straight position. Tried that on my last trip to the Nürburgring but everything happened so damn fast that the car swung back and ended in breaking out in the opposite direction...
Very nasty experience to feel how things (and expensive red cars) get out of control all in a sudden...
Con saluti cordialissimi,
Jens Haller
P.S.Where can you practise these things without harming your car and other people? |