| Author | Message | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 345 Registered: 4-2002 |
Geez, I'm only glad I'm not in the bracket to be able to afford a NEW F car | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3135 Registered: 5-2001 |
Rob, that with the Farmers is truely a rediculous thing. The only thing I can telly ou where I can see the government has a point of subsadizing them is that if you don't we would have no farmers in the US anymore and would become totally reliant on foreign supply which makes a country weak. As for Ferrari that is exactly my point. The US market was great when the 360 came out. Ferrari Spa sets the porice for all of thier importers at the same level, that is where all can compete and sell the product. Lets say they buy the 360C for $ 120,000 from Ferrari Spa, that is FNA and Ferrari Germany and Ferrari Brunai. They add the taxes and duties of their country and the typical 15% profit margin and here is your MSRP. Germany is doing bad right now, US is selling a lot. What Ferrari Spa should do is divert more cars from the Euro dealers to the US dealers if the Euro dealers can not sell the cars. But by keeping a number of cars in a certain market you overflow a bad market and underflow a good market. The Euro vs the Dollar has shifted in 1999 a whole lot. How do we compensate for that in a 2 year advance fair market price. How do we compensate for a 9-11 or a stock market crash, or a recession? What this will do is it will now allow some buyers to take delivery of their cars. Those will get stuck at the dealer. Prices will drop and the next guy will say well, why should I take delivery of my 360C if the fair market price is only $ 200,000 and not $220,000 as agreed. More cars will remain at the dealer...I am sure you get my point. There is a reason behind the madness. I think what ticks me off most is the fact that dealers use fake names to get allocations and then offer them on the market for much more money. You may have been on the list before and he takes your allocation and moves it back for his mother in law who will keep the car at the dealership and he can make a $80K profit on top. The reason why the waiting lists are long and why some people rather pay premium than wait for all the mother in law's to take their delivery. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2658 Registered: 12-2000 |
Martin, in reference to your first paragraph, FNA shouldn't take all the market profit, Ferrari SPA should be able to adjust wholesale prices too. I don't believe you can agree on a price two years ahead and then when delivered because of the market they change it. However, if both parties agree that you're being put on the list to buy at the future retail price, then heck yes, "Mr. Lay, the market value is $220,000, please pay or we'll go to the next on the list." Very few markets in our world are truly free, but they should be. Do you think farmers would be struggling along for so long without the government intervention. Advances in agriculture technology have allowed farmers to produce multiples of what they once could on the same amount of land. However, prices for crops have remained about the same over the last half century, while farm equipment has sky rocketed. In a free market the over supply would bottom out the price and farmers would of left the market until the supply was inline with demand. Instead of many farmers barely getting by on gov checks, there would be a right size of suppliers making a decent profit. My wife's family finally just this year got out after 3 generations of being Kansas wheat farmers and cattle ranchers. At one time they had over 10,000 acres of land. The past decade when they planted their crops they knew it was going to loose money, yet they would loose even more money by not planting. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3128 Registered: 5-2001 |
Rob, why should a factory authorized dealer be allowed to squeeze the markt just because the market is good? The market is good in the US but bad in Europe. Why should Ferrari SPA sell to Europe for the same as to the US and then the US dealer makes $100,000 profit on the car while the Euro dealer ends up with nothing. At the end of the day the Euro dealers will close shop while the US dealers go rich. Isn't it the right of the car buyer to make a profit if they ordered on time and made a downpayment 4 years ago? "Well Mr Lay, your F420 Modena Spider has arrived in our dealership! However, somebody walked in this morning and saw your car, that you have had a deposit on since 2000 and has offered us $ 50,000 more than you were supposed to pay. If you still like to have your car, you have to pay the premium as well or pick up your deposit check at the cash register ...and better luck next time!" Is that what we want to see? Now I agree that the price gouging is unfair and what ticks me off is that FNA does not care about funny orders from their dealer network to block orders for cars. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 536 Registered: 2-2002 |
I've long been a proponent of the marekt rate philosophy. If it works for lobsters, it can work for F-Cars. There could be a reserve price, just like at an auction, so that Ferrari doesn't get hosed. Just check the website weekly to see what the current market rate is. Enough dreaming. This will only work for a new car company that has never sold vehicles through a dealer network in the US. Every state has laws that protect dealers. Dealers have tremendous political power and they've used it to create a web of laws that will never allow such a thing to happen. Remember when Porsche announced that they were changing their distribution policies? I think it was in the late Eighties. The American was running the company back then. Dealers were going to essentially be ordering and delivery points and Porsche was going to set up factory service facilities regionally. There were something like 500 lawsuits from dealers on the Monday following the announcement and the idea was quickly dropped. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 571 Registered: 11-2001 |
the problem with selling cars at "market rate" is that when the market goes down the toilet you're kinda hosed. in addition, aren't there tarrifs and the like that have to be paid on import? how would those get calculated? how do you deal with the last cars of a model? i'm sure there's a dozen good reasons why manufacturers have MSRPs. i agree the system (this grey market stuff) is silly, but it's not obvious to me that letting the dealers float new 360 prices is a smart long-term play. doody. | ||
| Allen Cook (Alcook62)
Junior Member Username: Alcook62 Post Number: 63 Registered: 3-2002 |
Very good point Rob. I believe you summed it up nicely. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2600 Registered: 12-2000 |
Because there is more demand and money in America, most new Ferraris would come here if truely a free market system. I believe 100% in a free market system. Ferrari ticks me off with this and also the new owner contracts and leasing agreements. If Ferrari would sell the Ferraris above MSRP and at the going market rate, then there wouldn't be any arbitrage opportunities. | ||
| Nick Berry (Nickb)
New member Username: Nickb Post Number: 36 Registered: 8-2002 |
It is the FNA challenging and G&K Automtive Conversions in CA is the organization trying to import 2002 360's. | ||
| Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member Username: Pcelenta Post Number: 195 Registered: 7-2002 |
I think it also involves a little concern over product liability. IMO they should build a WORLD car that meets all standards and not concern themselves with the currency arbitrage that will always exist and the few enterprising individuals that take advantage of it. | ||
| martin J weiner,M.D. (Mw360)
Member Username: Mw360 Post Number: 640 Registered: 5-2001 |
It was FNA not FSPA that caused all the fuss and lost the case against J.K. technologies of Balt,MD.What entity is now challenging the 2002's? I would guess FNA. | ||
| Nick Berry (Nickb)
New member Username: Nickb Post Number: 35 Registered: 8-2002 |
As I understand the system, regular A list Ferrari customers buy the popular models drive them for a short period turn them back to the dealer who then sells the car at an inflated(over MSRP) price. This what is happening with the 360 particularly the Spider. By allowing the Euro version into the US the premium dealers are getting for the used US 360's will be substantially reduced. As you indicated the 360 are sold out through the production run and the dealers need to sell cars other than new ones. | ||
| Mr. Doody (Doody)
Member Username: Doody Post Number: 569 Registered: 11-2001 |
perhaps someone more erudite than myself could explain why FSpA really cares where the cars ultimately end up? they have dealer allocations set up throughout the world. the grey market theoretically has zero impact on the dealers since their allocations are basically pre-sold at this point through the end of model production. i assume this is the case worldwide. so the only material dealer objection is to service revenues, a secondary effect, which may have some merit, but hardly seems to warrant the extents FSpA has gone through over the past couple years on this matter. if they won't increase production, the market will behave efficiently. if the Norte Americanos are willing to pay highest dollar, the market will route the product there - officially-sanctioned or not. so what is the core of their concern? who is being "damaged" by this behavior? doody. | ||
| Nick Berry (Nickb)
New member Username: Nickb Post Number: 34 Registered: 8-2002 |
regarding importation of the Euro 2001 360, they now are challenging the 2002 claiming the Euro version is not "substantially similar" to the US version. Duh, the 2002 360 is different from the 2001?  The dealers must be putting a lot of pressure on Ferrari to challenge these cars because this latest one really reflects poorly on Ferrari's credibilty.  |