| Author |
Message |
Fred (I Luv 4REs) (Iluv4res)
Junior Member
Username: Iluv4res
Post Number: 193
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 4:21 pm: | |
Ouch.....That's going to cost some $$$$$ |
Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Junior Member
Username: Squidracing
Post Number: 211
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 3:48 pm: | |
No Stephen...I play on the east coast. I go to Watkins Glen, Lime Rock, Summit Point, and Pocono.
Jon, I hear exactly what you are saying regards the chicane. Ive taken many an interesting way around/through the chicane when working on that late/trail braking technique that you loved so much.
Dave, I too agree with you that the instructor should never have let the student be in that gear, or go as fast. However, student drivers do get off line, and that is not the fault of the instructor. He can work on the line with the student, but in the end it is the student who is driving. When I have a student who does not know the line, but has too much enthusiasm, I put them under a speed limit. I stress how speed comes through knowledge.
As a side note, missing an apex is not that big of a deal. One just has to adjust the line they will take when exiting the turn. In this case his throttle steer was not the correct course of action. An instructor will not be able to give quick enough feedback. He will respond to what is taking place, but he is not working the wheel or pedals. He should have told the driver to slow just a bit as he was missing the apex, but as things happen so quickly, it probably would not have worked. Personally, I would have told him to drive straight off the track, slow down, and work his way back on. Knowing that you are going off course, its easiest to direct the driver on how to go off. |
stephen r chong (Ethans_dad)
Junior Member
Username: Ethans_dad
Post Number: 92
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 1:36 pm: | |
I think Dave has a excellent point in the fact that the instructor really never says anything until it's time for both pedals in... I hope that most instructors would be more active in identifying missed apexs and help make that split second decision for the student. Jon/Matt, are you guy's doing any DE's (Instructors) out at Sears next year? |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 276
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 10:33 am: | |
Bart,
There are many terms used over here, curbs, rumble strips, gator strips, birms, zebra stripes (though I have never seen a red and white Zebra).
Jon
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Bart Boonacker (Sharky666)
New member
Username: Sharky666
Post Number: 19
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 9:32 am: | |
Jon, complements on the analysis.
I can't agree with you more.
When your driving on the edge you need "feel" the car and if you spin off you need to react in a split second.
Seeing the driver looking next too him when he spins off and the NON counter-steering shows it's an inexperienced racer.
So the instructor probably should have acted before letting the driver come to this edge.
Never the less, it does hurt when you see a 360 (or any ferrari for that matter) crash.
I do got one question, is everyone in america calling the curbstones gator strips ?? I was suprised to read it because over here (europe) everone calls it the curbs.
This all is just my $0.02.
Just the thoughts of someone with a bit of racing experience
|
Dave (Maranelloman)
Member
Username: Maranelloman
Post Number: 534
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Monday, November 04, 2002 - 8:30 am: | |
Watching this, I blame the instructor in the passenger seat. This inexperienced driver should never have gotten as far off line, in such high revs & the wrong gear, with an experienced instructor in the car. |
Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member
Username: 95f355c
Post Number: 275
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 11:07 pm: | |
His closing speed doesn't look very fast when you consider that he is in a 360 and the car in front is a Boxster. If you listen to his throttle modulation he is in a very low gear (high rpm's). I think he missed the apex on the right by a good foot or so and then crested the hill and suddenly realized too late he was out of track and lifted (listen to the throttle).
It appears he is in turn 10 at Sears Point (uphill left hander with a blind track out). Had this not been an uphill turn he might have had more chance to save it. Being an uphill turn means his rear springs were momentarily in a state of decompression as he crested the hill and with less weight on the rear of the car (and lifting to boot) he was toast.
I think he would have been better off not correcting at all and just driving all four straight off, though I don't know how much of a drop off there is in turn ten between the gator strips and the dirt and he would have also needed to make a decision much earlier than he did.
An experienced driver would have know right away that missing the inside right apex by a foot or two meant you only had one option, to take all four wheels off and NOT try to make the turn. It appears that this driver waited until he was already well past the apex and within sight of the gator strips to decide to attempt to bring the car back on the track. Costly mistake.
Matt, last May at the Glen I was drafting Michelle's 355 Challenge on the back straight and passed him under braking going into the chicane (bus stop). I was carrying way too much speed and was about 3/4 of the way through the chicane when I realized that I would have to put way too much steering input in to make the last part of the turn. I knew if I tried to make the turn and exit the bus stop I would spin and take out Michelle's car and mine. Went straight off into the grass and back on to the track.
When you are on the track and in a situtation where you are losing control you have to make a decision imediately as to whether the spin is one that can be saved or not. Too many people are slow to make this decision and often find out too late that the situation can't be saved and at this point it's to late.
It's easy for us to sit here and watch the video and say "..this is what he should have done..." but the bottom line is that he should have taken evasive action the second he missed the apex. Not seconds later when he could see the gator strips.
In reference to Stephen's quote of driving at the limit and receiving warnings. When you are driving at the limit you are in fact receiving enourmous feedback. The closer you are to the limit the more direct and communicative the feedback is. I see many posts on this board and others where folks claim that they were just going too fast to be able to get any feedback or warnings in time but this is incorrect.
Look at F1 drivers and their in car camera shots and you will see some of them (mostly the ones driving badly balanced cars) making constant corrections in fast turns (some as fast as 150 mph +) without ever lifting.
Part of this is God given talent and an incredible does of hand and eye coordination, the other part is knowing every inch of the track and anticpating ahead of time what will happen if the take a certain line.
There is a great F1 video (Lap of the Gods) in which Eddie Cheever is driving at the Detroit GP in the rain and driving literally flat out and making thousands of correction at every turn and even on the straights when he is putting the power down.
A car, any car, no matter how fast it's driven, and in all kind of conditons will always give warning and feedback early enough. Read Skip Barber's book "Driving Faster". the fast guys are driving at or over the limit at every corner. The car is in a constant state of becoming badly unstable or unbalanced. Your car should be trying to spin off the track at every corner.
Don't mean to be critical of the driver but I have been there and done that, it ain't no fun.
Regards,
Jon P. Kofod
1995 F355 Challenge #23
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Robert (Rjklein4470)
Junior Member
Username: Rjklein4470
Post Number: 196
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, November 03, 2002 - 9:39 am: | |
I think you guys are looking too far into this, It looks to me like he got two wheels in the dirt, started to spin and corrected the wrong way and held it, so he spun all the way over the track and hit the other wall, if he had straitened out the wheel when he was backing up he would have still been on the track, and not in the barrier |
Coop (360)
New member
Username: 360
Post Number: 24
Registered: 4-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 12:53 pm: | |
A 360 does a 360... [sorry, couldn't help it]
http://www.wurthmotorsports.com/
"Sears Point, CW [clockwise], F360, Driver drops two wheels on turn exit, lifts off the throttle, and spins into dirt berm." |
Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Junior Member
Username: Squidracing
Post Number: 210
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 11:06 am: | |
Looking at the tape again....
His initial closing speed on the Boxter (during the left and right turns) was not tremendous. This in itself tells me that he is not a driver with a great deal of track experience. Before he completes his exit on the right hand turn, he sees some straightaway in front of the Boxter. This causes him to plan a pass there. He accelerates too much, too early. This causes the car to push a little wide during the turn(more than the turn allows for), as well as pushes the rear end of the car out a bit. When the rear tire hits the dirt, this effectivly removed any traction which was taking place on the most heavily loaded corner of the car. I do think that he had all the feedback he would ever need, both by seat of the pants, as well as, and more importantly, by what the car was telling him. The car was being forced to the left by too much throttle. This much is clear. The fact that the car will be taking at least two wheels off the track as a result is equally as clear. The drivers options at this point are few. The best course of action is to moderate the throttle, accept the fact that you will be driving off the track, straighten the wheel while all four tires are still on the track, and drive straight off the track in a controlled manner. Not good style points, but the best way to avoid a larger problem. The car (as a result of the drivers actions: ie; throttle application) was not going to make that turn. If there were more asphalt, the result would have been different, but there was no more. So Stephen, to answer your question, yes, I feel the driver had ample feedback and warning and did not know how to read it. Again, when on the lower part of the learning curve, not understanding the dynamics taking place on your car, as well as the relationship between your feet, hands, and the car is a common occurance. |
acw (Acw)
Junior Member
Username: Acw
Post Number: 126
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 11:05 am: | |
I believe this 360 missed the apex on the right and ran out of track on the left. Notice that the Boxster rolls on the apex (right) and the 360 is far from it. The rear left wheel jumped on the white/red aligator thing and went out of track loosing traction, starting the spin.
Pretty sad.
ACW |
stephen r chong (Ethans_dad)
Junior Member
Username: Ethans_dad
Post Number: 88
Registered: 3-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 10:11 am: | |
Matt:
It seemed in the footage that the driver didn't have too much warning that he was driving near the limit. In fact, I thought he was simply about to overtake the Boxter on the exit, but he lost grip and the 360 begins it rotation fairly sudden. Do you think he had ample feedback(not captured on tape, but through the drivers seat) and wasn't reading it?
Steve |
Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Junior Member
Username: Squidracing
Post Number: 209
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 10:02 am: | |
The rear end came around because he induced too much throttle steer (which when used by someone who knows what they are doing, is part of the art of being at one with the car). He was revving high, in a low gear, and put too much pedal into it. This caused his car to rotate too much. He simply did not know the relationship between his foot and the dynamics taking place in his car. The track had nothing to do with it. Common mistake for a driver who is low on the learing curve. |
Bart McMurry (Mcmurb)
New member
Username: Mcmurb
Post Number: 7
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 9:53 am: | |
The back end sure released over the the crest of that hill. |
Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Junior Member
Username: Squidracing
Post Number: 208
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 9:52 am: | |
That was his instructor...you can hear the instructor saying 'both feet in'. |
Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Junior Member
Username: Squidracing
Post Number: 207
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 9:50 am: | |
Can anyone say - throttle modulation?? |
BobD (Bobd)
Member
Username: Bobd
Post Number: 718
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 9:47 am: | |
Looks like a little passenger distraction. |
Amir H. (355spiderman)
New member
Username: 355spiderman
Post Number: 33
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 02, 2002 - 9:35 am: | |
I'm not sure how to post a link but here is my try...
http://www.wurthmotorsports.com/videos/SP-3-2002-360_Crash.mpg |