| Author | Message | ||
| Barry Wolinsky (308gtb)
Member Username: 308gtb Post Number: 319 Registered: 2-2002 |
That was a fine post, John. I noticed the subtle wave as well, primarily in the doors. One must sight along the body at just the right angle to notice it. The body panels fit well with even gaps around the doors, bonnet and rear deck. The lighter fiberglass body was noted the day I road tested my GTB. The dealership had two GTS QVs there that day for me to test drive. I tested my car last and and the difference was noticeable. It seemed a bit quicker, but I'm sure the induction sounds of the Webers affected my sensations as well. I appreciate your comparison of the steel and GRP GTBs based on long-term ownership. The tubular steel frame is well-braced and supports the fiberglass body panels well. There is extra bracing for the US version bumpers which I'm afraid diminishes the weight savings a bit as compared to the European spec fiberglass GTBs. There's a bit of extra bracing in the B-pillars as well to serve as a roll bar, much needed with a glass-polyester roof. Rust is a non-issue and it's easy to inspect the steel rocker panels and lower frame elements for rusting. These few areas are easily treated. My S/N 19399 is a May, 1976 production and second in the run of the 100 US fiberglass GTBs made. It was among the first four imported by L. Chinetti and it went to Algar Ferrari where it was sold in 12/76. It was always serviced at Algar by two previous owners and the staff there fondly remember the first 308 GTB they sold. It's nice to see a little attention being paid to the fiberglass 308 GTBs. Barry | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3103 Registered: 5-2001 |
JOhn, mine is #19743. They are practically brothers  I bet you some of their parts were next to each other. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3399 Registered: 2-2001 |
John, Well said. I have a very nice GTS but I am partial to a glass car. To bad they didn't have a GTS in glass. | ||
| John_Miles (John_miles)
New member Username: John_miles Post Number: 14 Registered: 7-2001 |
I've had #19727 (July '76 production) in my garage for a couple of years now, after having owned a steel-bodied '77 GTB for a few years prior to that. The glass 308s RULE, simple as that. - Absolutely no cracking or sagging. Body panel alignment indistinguishable from steel. You can scarcely tell it's a fiberglass car without looking at the seams in the A-pillars. Just enough of a subtle 'wave' in the material to suggest that this car is a little different from the rest of the 308 hoi-polloi. - No paint problems, although this particular car benefited from a $20K repaint at Karosserie in Pennsylvania a few years before I bought it. I'd challenge anyone to find a mid-Seventies Ferrari with pristine original paint at this point, fiberglass body or not. - No untoward body repair issues; a competent body shop that can work on 'Vettes can also work on fiberglass 308s. - These cars are practically invulnerable to light damage that would be expensive to fix on a steel-bodied car. One night last year, a kid in a Honda changed lanes into me on I-90 in Seattle doing about 65. It felt, and sounded, like a deer had broadsided me.... but when we pulled over to check the damage, I was amazed to find nothing amiss but a 1/4" paint chip near one of my fenders. A few minutes with a bottle of touch-up paint would have been sufficient if I hadn't insisted on having the fender resprayed on general principles. Even so, the Honda probably cost twice as much as the 308 to fix. - One of my favorite features: removing the rear deck lid is a one-man job on a glass car. They were equipped with quick-release fasteners that eliminate the painful lid realignment operation that pre-hydraulic-strut 308s need every time you look crosseyed at them. And the fiberglass deck lid is so light that even a wimp such as myself can manhandle it on and off the car, with the help of a few bath towels to protect the paint from mishaps and a plastic laundry basket in the rear compartment to prop up the lid while working the fasteners. Needless to say this 'feature' makes carburetor service much easier. - No rust in the doors! Or just about anywhere else. Sure, the rocker panels are steel, but they're also out of sight, and no big deal to respray if necessary. - The doors feel like they weigh about 8 ounces apiece. Neat feeling every time you open and close them. Does it feel lighter, more agile on the street than my former steel 308? Sure, but all 308s are pretty damned light on their feet, and due to extra bracing needed for the glass body, the additional avoirdupois in the steel-bodied cars was really not that dramatic. Still, in terms of overall 'coolness', the fiberglass 308s are the only way to go. Very much worth the reputed $10K premium over the steel cars. No question about it. And no, vetroresina #19727 is not on the market. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
New member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 8 Registered: 11-2002 |
S/N 19399! Wow, that must've been one of the first batch imported into the U.S. by Chinetti. | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 686 Registered: 5-2002 |
Grest cars.production numbers stil not quite agreed upon by Ferrari. Best collector grade 308 available. Cant miss. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3101 Registered: 5-2001 |
Yep, Barry I am afraid I might.... ...but then my wife is probably more afraid of that | ||
| Barry Wolinsky (308gtb)
Member Username: 308gtb Post Number: 318 Registered: 2-2002 |
Martin, It's S/N 19399. I'm sure the restoration of the fiberglass GTB you just acquired will go smoothly. It's a nice car to work with. You might even wind up keeping it! Barry | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3099 Registered: 5-2001 |
The main reason I heard was the production of the hand made body did simply take forever compared to the steel version. They also did not know if the 308 would have a following and making the machines to press the steel was expensive so they tried with the new material fiberglass. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3098 Registered: 5-2001 |
Barry what is your serial number? | ||
| Barry Wolinsky (308gtb)
Member Username: 308gtb Post Number: 317 Registered: 2-2002 |
Stu, By the time the GTS came into production, Ferrari had completely transitioned to steel bodies for the 308 series. I've read several reasons for Ferrari transitioning from fiberglass to steel, including objection in the US market to a fiberglass Ferrari and the lengthy GRP (Glass-Reinforced Polyester) process for the body panels which did not allow the factory to keep up with demand. Barry | ||
| Tazio Nuvolari (Nuvolari)
New member Username: Nuvolari Post Number: 33 Registered: 9-2002 |
The crazing (cracking, spiderwebbing, whatever you want to call it) was due to the paints used to finish these cars and had nothing to do with the fiberglass bodies. Amazingly for Ferrari their bodies were of exceptional quality and the glass was not prone to stress cracks (although it did sometimes happen a little). Many people who see the cracks on these bodies think that it is structural while it is merely the cosmetic layer of paint that is breaking. Early Ferraris (and the vetroresina GTB is no exception)were painted with lacquer. This is a very hard paint that is applied and then buffed to its final finish. Lacquer is a very old painting technique that results in a finish that has wonderful depth but is very fragile. The cracking you see is due to the differential expansion rates that exist between the body and paint. Effectively the body 'moves' from under the paint and causes the paint to crack. A few years back a fellow I met told me the story of a Daytona he had. It was totally original and he pulled it out of his heated garage onto his driveway in the middle of winter. Right before his eyes the paint cracked in a few places. Modern paints are much more flexible and temperature stable then the old lacquer. For those of you obsessed with originality, I asked a Pebble Beach judge a few years back about paintwork. He told me that concours points would not be deducted if the car is re-painted with modern materials and techniques provided that the colour matched the original colour palette for the year of the vehicle (maintaining original body colour is not important). | ||
| Barry Wolinsky (308gtb)
Member Username: 308gtb Post Number: 316 Registered: 2-2002 |
Taek-Ho Kwon, As I mentioned, my 308 GTB Vetroresina has no stress cracks. No signs of "sagging" either. The original 308 GTB R&D was for the fiberglass body and so those issues never developed in the production cars. As I understand, it was never an issue in the prototypes either. Crazing was endemic to the early 308 series, fiberglass and steel, until better paints were used in the 1980s. The two other fiberglass GTBs I have seen were also straight. It's been reported that Ferrari/Scaglietti's GRP process was excellent and these car bodies have all held up well these past 25 years. http://www.italyexpo.com/vetroresina/ The Ferrari Market Letter has some fine reprint articles on this subject. The weight savings of the fiberglass body over the steel is said to be 250 pounds. The only steel on the car, besides the frame, are the rocker panels, headlamp assemblies and the center portion of the rear valance. The front bonnet is aluminum. I feel no more or less "privileged" than other 308 series owners. Barry | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3095 Registered: 5-2001 |
I just bought that 308 GTB from Foreign Cars. Will do some work but a great deal overall. I think I can retail this one for low $30s when it is done. These are some special cars. I always wanted to have a Fibreglass 308. The last one offered to me was a gold exterior one for $ 45,000. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3391 Registered: 2-2001 |
I did a 60 Vette of mine. Didn't have any stress cracks or crazing. Used a good sealer, Roman Red acrylic lacquer then cleared it and it came out beautiful. Can't say I saw any "sagging" in the glass of that car. I prefer glass cars myself. No problem of corrision. | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 520 Registered: 3-2001 |
There is a glass car at Foreign Cars Italia for I think $19,900. It looks like it needs some work though. I am not sure if this is the one you already looked at but I thought you might be interested. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
New member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2002 |
Haha! Maybe he did hit the sauce a little too hard Magoo. It isn't out of character, let's just say that! Honestly though. He had his car sanded and repainted. Seems like the paint shop sanded the creases a little too heavily. Don't know if you know about the midyear vettes, but they do have a very shapely body...sharp lines and all. So when the paint was stressed all night and the morning, the crease marks over the fenderwells showed cracking. Guess the paint didn't adhere too well to the glass. Remember, Corvettes, although using a heavier fibreglass were not of the same quality as a Ferrari, which uses a balanced and strong mix. So although he might have exaggerated a bit out of frustration I've seen the car in person and the stress creases are noticeable up close. Either way, even if it was a buildup of uses, not just that isolated event, it is a problem all 'glass car owners should be aware of. Again, I'm in the market for a glass car myself, so even with these drawbacks, I think with a little prudence the 'glass 308's are the pick of the bunch. And the prices obviously reflect that. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3385 Registered: 2-2001 |
Taek, Just reading some of the posts again I couldn't let this go by without commenting. The friend who left his car parked on a hill, nose to the curb, and he found creases in the paint the next morning. I think he had been hittin' the sauce a little too hard and forgot where he had been that night. That really is a tough one to believe. Regards, Magoo | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
New member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2002 |
Quality of fibreglass is imperative when talking about these problems. Nevertheless, they are problems that do occur and should be addressed. If you see a car with a lot of the creeping, it indicates that the owner was not taking care of his car too well, or the time has come up for that particular panel. The challenge is to find a careful owner who understands his vehicle and maintains it. Barry seems to be one of these privileged few, and he's reaping the benefits with his great example of a 'glass 308. All I was trying to say is that if you see spiderwebbing it is not a very good sign (obviously). And refering to the original post. If you see stress cracks, that is disaster. Ferrari did indeed use superior fibreglass, so stress cracks should not be common. Worst case scenario, if there is a lot of spiderwebbing you are going to have to repaint, which is no cheap proposition if you want to do a proper job. I guess wet sanding might work to cover up the uglies, but as a responsible owner, you will most likely want to remedy the problem, not cover it up for the next owner to run into. Even then, when a car is wet sanded to cover these imperfections, a cautious eye would be able to tell. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 550 Registered: 10-2001 |
I concur with Bill. My 1972 Europa, while in great condition overall, shows the effects of being a 30 year old fiberglass body. Seams are not exact, and due to the very thin walls, compared to a 308, have had a lot of light spiderwebbing. Most is minor and not too bad, but I expect the glass Ferrais look a lot better. Still, the lightness of the Europa gives a real racecar experience so I put up with the paint defects. | ||
| Bill Sebestyen (Bill308)
Member Username: Bill308 Post Number: 402 Registered: 5-2001 |
Fiberglass sagging is known as creep or creep relaxation. Most engineering materials exhibit this phenomenon to one degree or another. Creep occurs when the material is subject to a load over a long time and is generally worse when the material is warm. The early Lotus Elans were hand laid up of matt and polyester resin. There are two note worthy areas that are subject to creep. The front of the engine hood is held down and back by a spring. Over time and exposure to engine heat, the front of the hood begins to bend down. The doors tend to deform outward at the bottom edge where the constant load of weather stripping pushes out on the door. Glass work on the Lotus is actually quite good but rarely exceeds 1/8 inch in thickness. Colin Chapman was so concerned with weight that he would weight each fiberglass assembly and penalize the vendor if the part was too heavy. Fiberglass on the early Corvettes I've seen is a lot thicker and they are not hand laid up. A special gun sprays chopped fiberglass and polyester resin into a mold. This method of production while fast, generally results in a relatively heavy part with proportionately more resin for a given amount of glass. Fiberglass is strongest and most stable when there is a lot of glass and only a little resin. Fiberglass is also easy to repair if you take the time to do it right. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2199 Registered: 2-2001 |
Keep in mind for the most part, the early Corvettes were mass produced cars and their quality had a lot to do with Union labor and workmanship flaws. We had to repair numerous Corvettes at my dealership during the 70s to correct poor factory workmanship on cars that should have never been allowed to be sold in that condition. If I were ever in the market for another 308, I would look for a plastic version versus a steel one. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3377 Registered: 2-2001 |
I think I understand what you are saying about the word sag. On the old vettes the bodies were molded in clips and where the fenders round over etc. these areas are not structuarly sound and can crack. Yes this is so and the 63 to 67 and up vettes were installed together in panels which was much better. As far as the Ferrari fiberglass cars are concerened they are constucted much better and the technology seems to be ok. Again I would not be afraid of one of the Ferrari glass cars. Barry can vouch for that better than anybody. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
New member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well, I'm going to compare Corvette's to Ferraris for a second so bear with me, but one of the prevalent problems in older corvettes is that the fibreglass "sags" (my own made up term I guess?). Meaning wherever there are overhangs and such, the fibreglass tends to warp a bit. In essence, "sagging" from holding it's own weight and absorbing the shocks from bumps on the road or otherwise. Example: Looking at a 'glass 308 the front line of the front boot and the fender might not be as straight as it would in a steel bodied car. After a long time, fibreglass will not hold it's structural integrity as well as steel. Another reason, extensive "spiderwebbing" is kind of a sign that the car has been "enjoyed". Not that there is anything wrong with that, since these cars are meant for that. It's just that in my case, when you mix that with lack of records, it spooked me. In Corvettes, where the body is also made of fibreglass, fender lines and hood/fender gaps do show some inconsistencies. I'm talking about the decent quality corvettes from the midyears ('63-'67). You won't find this problem in areas where the panels are holding structural weight on its side (where it's strongest). But whenever you have fibreglass where there are overhangs like, as I mentioned earlier, the area around the front boot lid, and even the edge that cover the connection between the front bumper. This is actually also common on boats. Even though boats have a much sturdier "glassing" process and much more rugged paint coatings. Any cracking, creasing, splitting, or "orange peel" texture can also be signs of either a bad respray or a fibreglass inexperienced complete repaint. Keep in mind that even the most top notch painter, if he doesn't have experience in fibreglass, is going to run into problems. The process of sanding down to bare fibreglass is a very delicate process. I've run into this problem also in carbon fibre bodied vehicles in which the body panels are stress bearing (body roll) and not really compensated by proper "glassing" and/or layering. Just my 2 cents. Remember, I'm looking for one of these too! The weight savings call for a hoot when pressing on that throttle, and it does have a certain collectivity value to it. Irrespective, it is understandable why these cars where not sought after when they were just released from the factory. People wanted their Ferraris in steel! I just thing that they require a much more careful eye when purchasing. You'll hear dealers say the because it's fibreglass, the car won't rust. True, but rust can be easier to spot that weak spots in fibreglass. Also, only the body was made of 'glass. The frame, boot, etc were all made from steel which is prone to rusting. Any thoughts? I'm also assuming that fibreglass parts are probably very hard to find. Maybe they have to be remanufactured? | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3375 Registered: 2-2001 |
Taek, As I said before I would not be afraid of a fiberglass GTB. The paint used then was not to last 30 yrs and if not cared for would last a hell of a lot less. Another thing you mentioned about which I have never seen is a fiberglass car sagging???? What does that mean? | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
New member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2002 |
That's good news then... Since I wanted a glass car as well! Is the cracking paint a sign to run away from the car then? If well maintained cars don't show this type of wear, should cars with these symptoms be considered abused? If you've read my other post you can probably tell I'm in the market for one of the early 308's too. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3368 Registered: 2-2001 |
Barry just explained his car and I agree the fiberglass on those cars is nicely done and does not give any problems. What you are more then likely talking about and saw was the paint crazing that they used on all of the cars metal as well. It didn't hold up as the paint they use today. This was the case even into the early 80s. However it sounds like Barrys car was nicely kept and his paint is still orig.. | ||
| Taek-Ho Kwon (Stickanddice)
New member Username: Stickanddice Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2002 |
I was looking at one that was for sale in a nearby dealership. Then I saw the how the paint had "spiderwebbed" all over the doors and part of the rest of the body. Scary...ran away from that one. Fibreglass has a tendency to sag too. That's unavoidable if you drive it and leave it parked outside for any long stretch of time etc. I had a friend who told me he used to own one in San Francisco (the area I live in) and told me he parked it nose towards the curb in one of those steep hills overnight. he found the next morning that the paint had formed creases in some areas. Fibreglass seems to work wonders in the beginning, but I do question it's durability once it's hitting the 30 year mark. | ||
| stu cordova (Balataboy)
Member Username: Balataboy Post Number: 259 Registered: 4-2001 |
Hey Greg, The only negative, imho, is that not one of the 712 made was a GTS!! I wonder why - any thoughts? | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3363 Registered: 2-2001 |
I have heard nothing but good reports on the fiberglass bodies. Nice car. No rust. | ||
| Barry Wolinsky (308gtb)
Member Username: 308gtb Post Number: 315 Registered: 2-2002 |
Greg, I have a 1976 308 GTB Fiberglass. Yes, there were 712 made between 1975 and 1977. 100 US version GTBs were made in mid 1976. The fiberglass bodies (glass-reinforced plastic - Vetroresina) were extremely well made and have held up well over the years. The front bonnet is aluminum and the rocker panels are steel. Mine has shown no stress cracks and just minimal lacquer checking. The US version GTBs are wet sump with two distributors. The rest have dry sump engines with single distributors. All are, of course, non-catalyst carburetted cars. The US version cars have the two air pumps. A good source of information on the Fiberglass GTBs is the Ferrari Market Letter. They have two reprint articles available on the Fiberglass 308 GTBs. The Ferrari 308 GTB Register at: http://www.r-design.net/308/index_e.html is another good source of information. Barry | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 516 Registered: 3-2001 |
Can anyone give me some info on Fibreglass 308s? Any good sites that have lots of info on them. I think they made 712 or so. Are stress cracks common? Any info would be appreciated. |