| Author | Message | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 315 Registered: 10-2002 |
Slowly but surely, the car,surrounded by her sisters on the banking at Daytona in the photo that hung on the wall of Enzo's office on the day he died is coming along. The etching primer is ordered. The Rossa Corsa is being mixed... 1. Luggage Boxes and coil cooling ducts. 2. Alternator cooling duct. Note how it will wrap around chassis tubes. 3. Forming fender edge. Note cockpit cooling ducting. 4. Finished fender line. Final ride height will be lower. Note similarity to top of Enzo fender cut and Bikini bathing suit cut. Best Jim     | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 242 Registered: 10-2002 |
We're still plowing through the details: Fire system, battery box, kill switch, seat belts, fuel cells. We have to mount everything and then take everything apart for painting. I'll have more pics after New Year's. I hope to have her back in NY for final assembly by March. With any luck she'll be on the road by the summer. Best | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 363 Registered: 4-2002 |
James, You are going to race this beast when finished, right? Goodwood? Lemans classic? Ferrari Challenge? Walter Mitty? Tell me we will see it being driven in anger! | ||
| Mark Collins (Markcollins)
Junior Member Username: Markcollins Post Number: 61 Registered: 7-2002 |
James Any updates? I'm getting P4 withdrawal symptoms! | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 234 Registered: 10-2002 |
Front and rear finished fender edge.     | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1752 Registered: 6-2001 |
Patience, my son. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
New member Username: Psk Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jim, Just a small suggestion for those like me who have to suffer the phone internet connection performance. How about we (you ?) start a 'P4 Photos 1' post. I hope this P4 information continues, but it will be almost unreadable if we continue to let this monster post grow  The performance comparison between the GT40 and the P4 will also make interesting reading once the P4 is race ready ... worthly of a book about the two models Pete | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 960 Registered: 8-2002 |
Terry Hot wheels just released the p-4. I bought two at toys r us the other day. my p-4 won the water cooler race. It's number is 24. It's got nice detail. It even had the sparetire in the read opening. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 347 Registered: 4-2002 |
Matt, Is that a scalactrix car??? If so where did you get it? I have a Fly 512S longtail from Lemans 1970 but I would love to have a P4. | ||
| jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Junior Member Username: Atheyg Post Number: 115 Registered: 8-2002 |
Incredible car snd story Jim, Thanks for taking the time to share it with us | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 957 Registered: 8-2002 |
James, I may get to use mine but I doubt yours will understeer like mine! Damn thing could not beat the Viper GTSR. It slid under the water cooler. M | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 956 Registered: 8-2002 |
James, Enzo is smiling upon you. M | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 228 Registered: 10-2002 |
Dave These pics will show you how the edges of the fenders are formed and how the roof line is being fixed. Tim I no longer guess when anything will be done and yes this one is very beautiful but on that day in June my other one sure cooked. Matt At least you can use yours!       | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1741 Registered: 6-2001 |
Looks like its coming along nicely. I still dont see how you cant love this thing more than the GT40. Look at those lines! Will she be ready for that lime rock vintage festival in the spring? | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 952 Registered: 8-2002 |
 | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 951 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hot wheels just released the p-4. I bought two at toys r us the other day. my p-4 won the water cooler race. It's number is 24. It's got nice detail. It even had the sparetire in the read opening. | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 410 Registered: 10-2001 |
James , thanks a lot for clarifying things for me . As Dan said this is fascinating . Eagerly waiting for more ! | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Junior Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 138 Registered: 9-2002 |
Jim, I've been carefully keeping up with the posts below - watching this unwind is fascinating (you almost feel as if just by watching, listening, you are part of the great story - pieces unwinding and unfolding little by little). I guess I'm just pushy for more. --Dan | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 222 Registered: 10-2002 |
Andrew The car on the web site you posted, which takes awhile to come up, is the car "Schultz" refers to in the emails cited below that he incorrectly thought is my car. My response to him is contained in those emails as well. That car is a replica that Piper made as a track car and unlike my car or 0900 doesn't have a P4 engine,gearbox, or other original P4 parts from the factory spares and remains of 0846 that Piper aquired from Enzo Ferrari. Dan If you read the entire thread and the thread cited within this thread you'll find some of the information you're looking for. As time goes by and more information comes out I'll post it as I hope other's will. That's been my purpose from the begining: to find out whether or not the "pieces of a frame" that Piper aquired from Enzo Ferrari are,as several experts who have, and continue, to examine it's welds,modifications, and accident repair believe, the remains of 0846. It's interesting to note that the mirror covers on the car in Andrew's post are incorrect. Details. It's in the details. | ||
| john w. houghtaling, II (Johnhoughtaling)
New member Username: Johnhoughtaling Post Number: 29 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jim Call me again. I have misplace the number you left with me. John W. Houghtaling, II | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Junior Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 133 Registered: 9-2002 |
I am confused about the Piper car(s) as well. It seems he has two cars based on the same chassis, and then one car now has serial 0900 and is quasi-recognized? Does someone have more definitive detail about the car(s)? (Ahem, Mr. Ausbrooks, ahem :D ). --Dan | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 408 Registered: 10-2001 |
So MR Piper owned a real P4 and a fake P3/P4 ? http://speed.supercars.net/Pic?s=13&dir=2002-11-11&p=a&f=2&t=29238&m=632059&auth=M3Munki this car is a replica then ? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 193 Registered: 10-2002 |
I'm not sure how John does it but will find out. | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 408 Registered: 4-2002 |
James, always wondered, how do you stop the skin from splitting when trying to form it around the wire, especially on an area with a tight radius like the wheel cutout on the fender? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 192 Registered: 10-2002 |
Arlie One thing also must be said, while I am the Patron the ones with the talent are those doing the work names I've already mentioned and John Hajduk of MetalKraft, the young man in the photo actually cutting the fender, who's fitting and shapeing the body. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 191 Registered: 10-2002 |
The piece on the right is inserted into the rear window, the nut goes on the bottom, and the bolt goes through the alum. surround,the insert,and into the bolt.  | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 190 Registered: 10-2002 |
Arlie Eventually these holes will be filled with rivets. The skin is attached by rivet's and wrapping the edges around wire. That's why when we cut the fender openings we left extra to wrap the edge. Because of the complexity of the construction we'll have to paint the car twice. Once to get paint on the surfaces that will be pressed together, and a second time after it's riveted together and the edges are wrapped. The paint we'll use will be applied in very thin coats and almost no filler leaving the heads of the rivets raised. As these were race cars this is how the paint was applied in 1967 to save weight. The hardware used to attach the rear window from the bottom is way cool. I'll post a pic. Best Jim | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 441 Registered: 5-2002 |
Jim, in light of the photographs of your car and the ongoing work involved, I think it is only proper to downplay any controversy on its "heritage" or documentation. You and your workers are obviously taking great pains in the restoration which looks to be more like restoring a vintage aircraft, considering all the aluminum working that has to be done. Only the most jaded, cynical individual could not appreciate your car as it continues to evolve toward its former glory. I notice what looks like Cleco clamps for panel alignment. Do you have to go back and spot weld each Cleco alignment hole and grind down the weld after all the panels are fitted in place? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 279 Registered: 11-2002 |
Wayne, a little 'food for thought' concerning the old timers that layed the ground work and our peers. At some point along a dedicated path one must choose the masters they serve, the peers or the truth, sometimes they may be the same and other times not, depending on which master takes precedence determines ones ability to see clearly . | ||
| Andre Vieira (Goggles_pisano)
Junior Member Username: Goggles_pisano Post Number: 64 Registered: 5-2002 |
Incredible thread guys, I just finished wading through it. Quite the thrilling mystery! | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 188 Registered: 10-2002 |
These Photos show the "Alergretti valley" (He was the panel beater who did the original vents) We're going to raise the curve of my roof, Which as Piper's center section is from a Spyder doesen't flow into the coupe tail section. One of these photos shows an amazing detail that very few are aware of. The P4 Coupe tail has a raised rear window surround. This detail is unique to the P4. The P3 rear coupe window is attached from the top and covered by a surround which is a seperate piece. In the P4 coupe tail Alergetti formed the surround out of the tail to eliminate the aerodynamic drag caused by the edge of the surround. This bit of workmanship is amazing. In the P4 Coupe the rear window is put in from the bottom. As Michangelo said "God is in the details."     | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 187 Registered: 10-2002 |
JRV Too true my friend. Best Jim | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 274 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>>Tomorrow I'll post pics that show this. We're pouring over pictures and drawings with magnifing glasses and I'm hopefull we'll get it right. I wonder if the judges at the concours that probably won't invite me will ever know? <<< Here's your answer to that Jim, "The trouble with doing something right the first time is that nobody appreciates how difficult it was." ;-) | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 185 Registered: 10-2002 |
John I do hope I'm done in time and would love to come. Give Bill my best. Passing on two lane roads is a bit tricky with right hand drive. I touched on this in the 360 quarter mile thread. I'll stay in touch. Wayne As I get older I find the songs of the sixties going through my head. I think I was paraphrasing something Joan Baez said to Bob when he called her that time from a booth in the midwest. (Diamonds & Rust) As you know there are no P4 coupes existant so figuring out this coupe body even with the aid of the blueprints that Mr. Ferrari gave David (at least everyone seems to agree on the blueprints) is a bit tough. As you can see from my earlier comments on Mr. Bardinon's rebody even the best sometimes make small mistakes. The gentleman who made the vents on the P4 coupes that ran at LeMans that let out the cockpit air did them by eye and they are different from the roofs of the P3. The problem is the shape of the valley between these vents. We puzzeled over this today. Tomorrow I'll post pics that show this. We're pouring over pictures and drawings with magnifing glasses and I'm hopefull we'll get it right. I wonder if the judges at the concours that probably won't invite me will ever know? Once again I remember what Bob said "It's for myself and my friends my stories I tell." I also remember what Dino DeLaurentis once told me "Jim by the time you get invited to all of the parties you won't want to go..." | ||
| john w. houghtaling, II (Johnhoughtaling)
New member Username: Johnhoughtaling Post Number: 20 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jim: I love the rumour of the story of the old man and Volpi's trans. I relayed that rumour several times to people during our New Orleans Concorso, when we had 0808(the facorty winner) and 2819, reunited on the track for the first time since 62. I'd like to say its a true rumour, as there is some information from the 62 race which suggests its true. (the trans in Volpi's TR also when out with the same problem on the same lap). However, Mark Sonnery, who researched an upcoming Cavillino article on 2819, spoke with Volpi. Comments Vopi made to Mark suggested it was not true. But Mark did confirm some of the more juciy stories about the car. Like, why, during restoration in 84, a woman's high heel was found impeded in the underside roof! John | ||
| john w. houghtaling, II (Johnhoughtaling)
New member Username: Johnhoughtaling Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dear Jim: I passed on your history regarding the reason for the right hand drive cars to Jim Spiro. He has had a difficult time with the right hand drive of s/n0808 and we were wondering why the factory raced it this way. I passed on your answer to Spiro and he sends his thanks. By the way, Jim, if your car will be finished by the time Franco Valobra and I put on our 4th Annual New Orleans event, we would love to invite you. As you may have read in past FORZA and FML (or will see in the near future), our event is something special, (and our relationship with our local authorities, and what they allow us to do for the weekend, is also special). Franco and I have put together a interesting group of people who like to seriously "drive" their cars. (jim put 40k miles on a F50 daily driver) More than a few LeMans Ferraris regularly traverse New Orleans streets during our event. Love to have your P4 included next year (October 24-27, 2003). If your interested in joining Franco and I along with Spiro, Shallet, Arytunoff, and a select group of about 50 others, please give me a call, and I'll send you and invite. John W. Houghtaling, II 504-456-8657 PS: Dave Penhale: I take that as a concession that you stand by that strong statement despite the fact that you've never actually seen 2819. As for me I'm pretty careful about marriage, especially when its a blind date with an opinion. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 520 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hey, Jim, was that an example of the intense passion created when intellect and emotion clash or was it just plain ol' sappiness? | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 183 Registered: 10-2002 |
When you stare at this car in person you really can feel the winds of the old days blow through your hair... | ||
| PSk (Psk)
New member Username: Psk Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2002 |
I think that we have to be simpathetic to Piper (and others that raced these cars in their day) with the haziness of what happened to what. I doubt when he was preparing the car, or cars, for the next race meeting whether he was even interested in what chassis went with what, etc. as just the race readiness of the cars would be paramount. When current race cars are prepared, nobody stands there and says, heh, you can't put that body on that chassis because in 40 years time it is going to confuse a restorer , it is all about what works best to get the results. It is going to get even worse in the future as no current race car nowadays has just one engine and gearbox, etc. They are really just a big selection of parts to play with ... thus once it's active duty is over, the parts will probably end up separated ... and thus somebody could own an engine that won Le Mans, another the left front upright ... while somebody else owns a the chassis I suppose in the end it is authenticity of the parts is all that matters, but proving that (as we see here) is interesting to say the least. Love the car by the way. Worth planning a holiday from Australia just to see it Pete | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 518 Registered: 8-2002 |
JR, the way I see it, you and I (and Jim, for that matter) are all on the same page. Like I said, even if the "experts" all agree on something, some new guy (like myself) has to come along and question it. As you say, "hard and definite opinions have been erroneous before." Still, I owe a lot to those "experts" and the years of research they've done have provided a good foundation for us new guys to start from. It is with respect, then, that I question their findings. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 264 Registered: 11-2002 |
Wayne, I don't know if it was clear? I'm in no way critisizing you for being a skeptic. I'm a huge skeptic in my own areas of expetise as you may have noticed..;-)...truth is somebody has to be the torch bearer of skeptasism...especialy in the warm & fuzzy politicaly correct world of ...well...you know. Regards, JRV | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 437 Registered: 5-2002 |
From previous postings concerning the P4: "miscellaneous parts", "corners and engine from 0846", "body from 0860", "parts of a frame", "chassis engineering drawings", "it's a bit of a sticky wicket as to what it is and where it's been. David will not commit in writing that it is 0846. I think he did originally, then has subsequently waffled a bit." This is all starting to sound like the same kind of double talk that is prevelent in the Corvette world of documentation. Miscellaneous parts, frame scraps, non-original bodies and non-original engines do not make for an original car no matter how much the owner/owners wish that it would. No offense to Jim, but if he does turn his "pile of parts" (his terminology) into a beautiful automobile, it is starting to sound like it would still not be able to stand up to severe scrutiny that the "high and mighty" often demand of their world class collectible automobiles. In all honesty, in the end, isn't Jim's car just going to be an excellent re-creation of a P4 Ferrari? After all, justice is blind and can not see the beautiful form and shiny red paint. She just weighs the evidence which is starting to sound increasingly vague. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 263 Registered: 11-2002 |
Wayne, I agree with you completely for questioning any mystery that warrants. You've questioned me directly and I gave you the answers you asked for to the best of my ability, seemed fair enough to me. I have been around this stuff a long time and know certian hard definate opinions have been proven erroneous before. I really don't want to get into personalities and situations here, suffice it to say I have been a first hand witness. I'm not the historian, just another participant. But as a participant I've come to learn to take each case on an individual basis (generaly)rather than making the situation fit my preconcieved notions. Certianly you're correct that men & history may never be privvy to all the truth & all the facts. But maybe this is a case where a preponderance of the evidence is all we will ever have. That's what I mean by trying to soften certian conclusions based on new information as it becomes availible. Regards, JRV | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 514 Registered: 8-2002 |
One last addition. Mark Ketcham responds to the earlier message with an exact quote by Marcel Massini regarding what he saw in 1977: "... I didn't take any pix back then. Unfortunately. I saw a more or less complete chassis with an engine in it and the front body work. Wheels were attached to car! I was shown the chassis number 0846 on the frame, right rear part. Paperwork: I was shown the customs carnet for 0846. A carnet is a document like a "bond" (my poor English, sorry). The doc allows you to transport a car from country A to country B, without paying taxes. But you have to pay customs a deposit (based on value of car) to get a carnet. Marcel Massini" | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 513 Registered: 8-2002 |
Sorry, Jim, I was still typing when you posted your response. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 512 Registered: 8-2002 |
JR, maybe my comment about Piper came off a little heavier than intended. The point is that Piper, though having owned (and certainly raced) several Ferraris of unquestionable provenance, he has also been known to buy up wrecked cars and pieces of cars and use those parts and pieces to "construct" historic racing machines. We could just as easily be having a similar conversation about 250LM s/n 5897, P3/4 s/n 0900, or one of the TWO existing 330Ps with s/n 0818. I'm sure Jim will agree that even if Marcel Massini, Gerald Roush and whomever else, all agreed that his P3/4 was definitely built on the chassis of P3 s/n 0846, the car would still be a "storied" car and its provenance would continue to be questioned by others. And what's wrong with questioning? Besides, I think the point here is that Jim is in the search for the truth, even though he knows it may never be conclusive one way or another. Inviting all opinions and stories (whether you like them or not), as well as looking at what little physical evidence remains, is the only way to get close to what the truth is. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 179 Registered: 10-2002 |
Tom Yes this car will be at WWOC in the spring and you and other F Chatteres are welcome to see it. My Lola and my MK-IV have been there as well. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 178 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wayne Thanks! I mean it. I appreciate your coments and research. I also really appreciate David Piper. There are few who have had such an interesting life. How many of us can say they sat in a room alone with Mr. Ferrari and discucced life,the universe, and everything? Turning this pile of parts,whatever they turn out to be into a car has been a very special experience. In the end that's all that matters. Best Jim | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1916 Registered: 9-2001 |
Jim If your car is ever at WWOC I would love to see it. I live about 10 min from there. Was your lola ever there? I think I remember seeing it?? | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1914 Registered: 9-2001 |
forever is probably to strong a word, if the facts prove out then any tainting can be removed. Reputation in dealing with these cars as well as in life, is everything and I think Jim is taking the right approach. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 262 Registered: 11-2002 |
Now you can see my point, two witness's both very credible ...one has the car being seen complete...the other has the car being seen completely in pieces. Certianly both versions can't be entirely accurate ? Perhaps it's easier not to judge standing on the outside looking in. Or easier because of a lack of preconcieved notions. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 261 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>as well as a general feeling that anything that has passed through David Piper's hands will forever be tainted with an odor of questionable authenticity. <<< Hmmmmmmmmm......I really don't like the sound of that. I understand it, but nonetheless, there are certian self proclaimed and vocal experts out there that are really given far more credit than they're due. When the old cars and their histories became an important issue to the wealthy, certian people stepped up undeservidly to fill a vacum. It can be unjust and even plain wrong at times to predicide an issue and then try to build the case. It would be much more fair to history if some of these preconcieved notions allow for evidence & facts to be the final judge. Ferrari & the people first hand did many, many strange and different things through the years, so trying to place hard & fast rules has never worked all that well. If certian attitudes were softened it might be easier for the final truth to be known imo. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 510 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jim, allow me: I wrote: "BTW, Mark, do you have any opinion on JG's claim?" Mark Ketcham replies: "Several thoughts: 1) Things are far from conclusive at this point. Certainly the body for the car will be new. No questions there. 2) One thing I can say with certainty is that the chassis #0846 is NOT in the P5 in Japan. (FYI: Pininfarina, if you can believe it, claimed recently that they "found" the chassis 0846 sitting in their basement. Hah!). We're unsure exactly what chassis IS in the P5, but it's not 0846. Maybe a 206, or some udder thingo. 3) Ferrari SpA seems signed up for the car, as they willing built Jim new uprights for the car, and on their invoice to Jim, Ferrari described the car and it's parts as a "P4". To my view, Ferrari has been fairly inflexible about assisting anyone in the construction of dicey, or certainly Fake-E-Do cars. Period. 4) Provenance. As this car has passed through the hands of David Piper, it's a bit of a sticky wicket as to what it is and where it's been. David will not commit in writing that it is 0846. I think he did originally, then has subsequently waffled a bit. There are certainly no other claims on the chassis. 5) Marcel Massini. The last time 0846 was REALLY scene, and without question it was whole, was when Marcel saw the car in 1977 (repeat 1977, 10 years after it's last race) it was whole with motor 0846, and the car was owned by CERVAN Corporation, which was a Swiss holding company, owned by... David Piper. 6) Jim Glickenahaus. I think Jim's view to it is one of integrity, in that he has basically thrown the cards on the table and will let them fall where they may. Without question, he is a serious enthusiast and will get the car up and running and campaign it. It'll be an awesome sight. That for sure. I know he would be delighted if anyone can shed more light on the car, good, bad, or indifferent. Corrections, additions, or eye pokes welcomed. Ciao for Now, Mark Ketcham" This brings about a quick response from yet another s/n tracker: "Hi Mark, When Marcel examined the chassis in 1977 I believe he described it as "bits and pieces, and a lot of original documents, some with 0846 on them." In my mind there is a difference between paperwork and actual parts. Applying a serial number from documents to a part does not make it the legitimate item in my mind. At the time Marcel believed that Michael Vernon was the actual owner of the project in Sbarro's warehouse. So, could Vernon have coughed up the grease to obtain the carnet for "0846" to go with the miscellaneous parts that Piper had earlier acquired? There is no doubt that Piper did buy the corners and engine from 0846 as well as the body from 0860 and "parts of a frame" from Ferrari. Piper also obtained the chassis engineering drawings for the P 4 from Ferrari. As Keith (refers to a remark made by Keith Bluemel) stated, it is hard to tell where reality ends and the myth begins." | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 176 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wayne May I post Mark's answer to your Email? | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 507 Registered: 8-2002 |
I continue to receive email from various sources about the fate of 0846, its chassis, and extraneous parts. Continuously obtaining permission to post those messages here (as some are very opinionated) is overwhelming. Let's just say that there is much discussion as to what exactly Marcel Massini says that he saw in 1977 (Marcel himself is on vacation and not available to comment) as well as a general feeling that anything that has passed through David Piper's hands will forever be tainted with an odor of questionable authenticity. That said, Jim, rebuild it, drive it, enjoy it. | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 263 Registered: 3-2002 |
In very slight defense of the Breadvan, it does look awesome when it is driving directly towards you! Ahh, but that is good ol' subjectivity for ya. Funny how I think the F50 is drop dead gorgeous, and there are still people who think it is an abomination(we pity them all). | ||
| Tyler (Bahiaau)
Member Username: Bahiaau Post Number: 409 Registered: 12-2001 |
My God what a gorgeous car Jim! Hands down this is the most fascinating thread going here. Watching this unfold and soaking up this information is almost better than driving. | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 391 Registered: 4-2002 |
John, I stand by my view on one of the most ugly cars ever...first prize the breadvan Ferrari. I'm sure its monetary value and its racing provenance isn't in question but we don't ALL judge by those. | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 390 Registered: 4-2002 |
something smells a bit fishy but not sure what. That car does look real nice though, like to see some detail shots when she's finished. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 505 Registered: 8-2002 |
Ok, Jim. For those of you who are following the story, here is Jim's response to my earlier post: "That is yet another car Piper made not the one I bought from him. There have been articles on that car and it was always referred to by him as a track replica car. I would respond to Schultz by asking whether or not this looks like a 365 street engine? Piper at one time definitely referred to my car as 0846. When I asked him why he stopped his response was vague, He did say something strange though. "0846's chassis was used to make P5 ...." weird? Non? The car Piper sold me was the first car he built. It was built before 0900. He gave me pic's of it from 1974 painted exactly including # as 0846 after Daytona." Further, in a separate email: "Two more bits of strange news: Ferrari SpA let me register as the owner of P4 0846 engine #0003 gearbox #593A N7 on the Ferrari Owners site. I submitted this a while ago and out of the blue they approved it. (I'm not assuming it means anything but it is interesting) They also allowed Piper to race P4 0900 in the Ferrari Historic challenge. Heretofore they refused to allow that serial # to compete." | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 175 Registered: 10-2002 |
Carl The pic that you posted which was on the right is now on the bottom. (The one of Bardinon's car with the incorrect rounded openings) All of the P3,P3/4's, and P4 were right hand drive. Most race cars of that era were right hand drive as LeMans was (and is) run in a clockwise direction therefore there were more right hand turns which are easier to make in a right hand drive car. Any pics of real P4's that are left handed are flipped negatives printed backwards. Ones you see "In the metal" are replicas. Ignition switches on Porsche's are on the left of the steering columbe for the same reason. At the LeMans start in the 60ies you ran accross the track,climbed in started the car and drove off. By placing the ignition switch on the left you could start the car and shift into first at the same time (race cars having the shift on the right a well) Finding 15 inch tires wide enough and tall enough to match the sizes used in the sixties is very hard. This was complicated by the fact that as Piper continued to race this car he up sized the wheels to the size Ferrari went to when they converted two P4's to CanAm cars. 11X15 fronts and 15X15 rears. As I admire Piper for continuing to race the P4; Indeed Ferrari admires him as well as they are proud to have him race 0900 in the Ferrari Historic Challenge even though that is not a Ferrari serial #, when Alberto convinced Campanello to recast the P4 wheels for me I had them done in those sizes. 0846 raced on Firestones which are no longer made and the Dunlop Historics don't come in a size that is exactly right. Avon makes a slick that is the exact same size that the original Firestones were and Rodger Krauss racing was able to provide them and hand cut a correct tread patteren into them. Wayne Mark is the person who figured out that something's strange re P5 and that Massini saw a P4 stamped 0846 imported in to Swisserland in the late 70ies by a Piper owned Co. Any thing he says to you or that I've said to him is fine to post so long as he consents. Mark is also the person who came up with a copy of the French TV coverage that proves that 0846 didn't burn into oblivion during th LeMans 1967 race. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 259 Registered: 11-2002 |
Comon Jim, say it's OK ...please...this is fantastic, watching potentialy history altering events unfold. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 504 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jim, I received your response to one of my earlier posts via Mark Ketcham. I think you have some interesting things to say regarding Piper and your car. Do you mind if I post them here for those that are following this thread? | ||
| Carl Gustaf Landin (Gustaf)
Junior Member Username: Gustaf Post Number: 57 Registered: 9-2001 |
James, Thanks for the insight. I have seen P4 with left-hand drive as well as right hand, what is the ratio between them. And also why make a left-hand drive race car in the 60's? I realize that the pic is of a right-hand drive version but it is of the same car as in the post below, if it is of any interest. Is AVON the only maker of this tire size nowadays? Didn't they originally run on Dunlop or was it Pirelli?  | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 174 Registered: 10-2002 |
This is how P4 tail openings should be.  | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 173 Registered: 10-2002 |
Carl Your photo brings up an interesting point. The pic on the right is of Bardinon's car which was rebodied with a body that I believe was supplied by Piper. The only problem is that they got the tail opening slightly wrong. The cornors are too rounded. These are the details that drive you nuts. I'm posting a pic of 0846 at the Targa Floria, Note how the edges of the square cut out in the tail are less rounded.  | ||
| Carl Gustaf Landin (Gustaf)
Junior Member Username: Gustaf Post Number: 56 Registered: 9-2001 |
This being the most gorgeous car ever constructed I thought I'd add some pics of it in action back in the day.   | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 172 Registered: 10-2002 |
John I couldn't agree more. I saw the "Breadvan" in person at the Goodwood Festival of speed when I was there with my MK-IV. Watching it blast up the hill in the rain was site to see. For me it's the history. The dents made when Bruce McLaren threw down his hemut and chased after the tail section that had blown off of his MK-IV on the Mulsanne. (The dent's still there) Did they sabotage The Count's transmition or not? As you folks in New Orleans know, beauty comes in many forms... | ||
| john w. houghtaling, II (Johnhoughtaling)
New member Username: Johnhoughtaling Post Number: 16 Registered: 11-2002 |
Fantastic Thread. Sorry to digress to the rebodied/value debate, put I feel like I must respond to Mr. Dave Penhales somewhat nasty dismissal of my post. Dave: I'm well aware that the Breadvan has been termed funny looking, even ugly by some people who have only seen it photographed in pictures. Never heard anyone say it looked like a pile of ***** and "you can have it." Certainly never heard a Ferrari enthusiast say that. Just curious Dave, have you ever seen the Breadvan up close? Ever heard it roar by you at 120 mph? Most of the photographs of 2819 are taken with the photographer laying on the ground with his camera pointed up the rear of the car. That is not at all what the car looks like in person. In person the Kahmm tail is really stunning, very very menacing looking, many consider it very beautiful. As an aeronautical engineer I'm surprised by your suggestion that a Ferrari's value is based merely on how something subjectively looks(despite the fact it may be a cosmetic fake or fraud). I figured you would find beauty in aerodynamical function as instead of the fussy cosmetic strakes, and fake air intakes on Ferraris of the early nineties. The ugliest, cosmetically terrible racing Ferrari is worth nothing to you when you compare it to the most beautiful fake Ferrari? (I am making not judgement that the p3/p4 at issue is real or not). Do you care at all about the history of the factory, racing, and preserving the historical significance of these cars? That said, if you saw sn 2819 in person and in action, you'd have a very different opnion of its pure esthetic appeal. I'd bet you'd retract the strong nature of your post. John W. Houghtaling, II | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2858 Registered: 12-2000 |
James, you should talk about your movie career in off topics, unless you want to keep that side of your life separate. I just find many of the users on this board have interesting stories outside of our common interest for Ferraris. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 171 Registered: 10-2002 |
No I believe Harry's car was J3 which now owned by Nick Saprano. My car is J6 which came in 4th at LeMans in 67 driven by Donohue/McLaren. It's ownership is:Ford, AJ Foyt, Les Lindley, Peter Lavonos, me. There's a pic of it and a link to an article in Popular Mechanics in off topic. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 556 Registered: 2-2002 |
Beautiful car, Jim. I grew up in Detroit and I am fascinated by automotive history, so I'm a huge A-C-D fan. I visit the museum often and enjoy the Festival on Labor Day weekend. A question on your Mk IV. Is that the same car that Harry T. Heinl from Toledo, OH owned back in the seventies? He had a yellow Mk IV and a couple of GT 40s that he converted to street use, including retrofitting air conditioning. If I remember correctly he had the Mk IV up for $40k, a fortune back then, but in retrospect... | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 169 Registered: 10-2002 |
One of P4's garagemates: J446  | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 244 Registered: 11-2002 |
Definately not a street engine. Distributors (ignition) definately from a Gran Prix Engine. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 502 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jim, I'm not making any claims of accuracy here, I'm just trying to help out. Take from those statements whatever you choose. Disregard the rest. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 168 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wayne I'm confused does the engine in this car look like a 365 4cam road engine to you? | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 501 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jim, After asking a few questions, I was able to come up with the following. I hope these snippets are helpful in your research. I'm not revealing the sources of these quotes, but, if you think it will help you, I can ask permission to reveal that information to you privately. One source wrote: "Wayne Something stirs in my memory that David Piper got some alloy body panels from de Siebenthal in Switzerland many moons ago, which had a chassis number hand-written on the inner faces. I might be completely wrong, and confusing it with something else. Perhaps Marcel's memory/records are better than mine - not difficult!" A second source responded: "Hello, it is very well known that they built a 330P for Piper a fews years ago. Salutations" A third source: "David Piper used to own a replica P3/4. The car had a fibreglass body and was fitted with a 365 4-cam road car engine. He never raced that car but used it for track days and motor shows. For a year or longer, he gave it on loan to German Ernst-Dieter Quadbeck who organised racing shows in shopping centers. David Piper always called it his "P3", but admitted that it was nothing more than a replica if you asked for further information. David Piper told me a few month ago that he sold the car in 2001. Best regards," I think I understand by your last post that, even though Piper himself believed that the car had been put together from a pile of parts (as many Piper creations are), your thinking is that, among that pile of parts was the original chassis belonging to 0846. Is that correct? If that is true, it makes a very intriguing story. Once again, I wish you luck in your research. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 166 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wayne This began with an eyewitness. Marcel Massini: "Yes,I did see-as stated before-the customs CARNET,which is a normal customs document (import a car under a bond, without paying taxes, for easy import and re-export). NO, I was unable to make any copies, since I was in the Sbarro garage, a workman's place without any administrative machines. As I said before, CERVAN Corporation (A David Piper owned company) was the name the company that brought it into Switzerland. I wrote that name down back then, simply because I found it an unusual name and I intended to find out more about that company (which I never did, unfortunately). When? In 1977, as I said before." Another whitness (Who for the time being will remain nameless) " I spoke with Marcel Massini this morning(He was the fellow who saw 0846 in Switzerland in 1977. He repeated that there was definitely and entire chassis (stamped 08460,with engine also stapmed 0846." Eyewitness's are important but physical evidence much more so. Forensic analisis coupled with documentation (For example the the LeMans documents are very, very, specific and include things as minute as serial #'s of starter motors) can be very compelling and are much harder to fake. JVR is IMHO spot on. It begins by looking and a feeling. When I first told Alberto Pedretti (The mechanic that Enzo sent over to help Chinetti open up the US market and someone who has as much hands on knowledge about older Ferrari's as anyone in the world) that I wanted to buy this car from Piper his response was all of Piper's cars are bullshit. Reluctantly he went to London with me to look at it. After arguing with Piper for 20 minutes about who's fault it was that the NART 250 LM that Piper was driving and Alberto was in charge of only went 2 laps at LeMans, Alberto looked at the car. He inspected everything. Didn't say a word for a long time. Much like the time he first saw my MK-IV. (After looking over my MK-IV for a long silent time he looked at me and said in a soft voice: " I see why we lost.") David went back into his house to find the P4 blueprints that Enzo had given him so he could repair the parts and remains he had bought from him. Alberto looked up from the car, turned to me and said "This is a P4... Piper has •••••• it up, but if you're willing we can fix it..." | ||
| Carl Gustaf Landin (Gustaf)
Junior Member Username: Gustaf Post Number: 52 Registered: 9-2001 |
I want that car! | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 500 Registered: 8-2002 |
JR, I'm just giving Jim a little good-humored ribbing. Actually, I'm sure the final determination will lie with tracing the history of that chassis though eye witnesses and various parties that were involved up until it ended up in Jim's hands. Several people who have visited Piper's shop over the years have reported seeing various replicas and spare parts around. It has also been reported that Piper ran more than one car with the s/n 0900. It will probably be through these type of accounts that a complete story will eventually emerge. The burden, however, is on the person who decides to research, uncover and decipher all of those accounts. I truly wish Jim luck in his search for the truth and I would personally find it very satisfying to learn that 0846 was, at least in part, still around. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 238 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>As for the burden of proof, how you're ever going to hang your hat on "embrittlement," I don't know.<< gotta start somewhere....and the search should always begin with a hunch that then follows the evidence. Incredibly interesting.... | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 237 Registered: 11-2002 |
I should have been following this thread instead of another one. ;-).. Awesome !!!! The P-4's are one of the coolest most beautiful Ferrari's ever. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 499 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jim, thanks for the invite. I'd love to see the car in person. As for the burden of proof, how you're ever going to hang your hat on "embrittlement," I don't know. Sounds kind of far fetched to go from that to assuming that this particular car was involved in that particular fire. Anyway, good luck to you. It's a good thing you plan on keeping and enjoying the car. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 161 Registered: 10-2002 |
Bill My Duesenberg is J446. It's a 1931 Franay bodied 4 door convertible ex Queen Marie of Yugoslavia. I'll post a pic on monday. It's as pretty as my P4 maybe more so. It has adjustable brake bias,an altimeter so you can adjust mixture and spark advance as you drive, a 150MPH speedo, and a 7 liter strait 8 that makes so much torque you can smell it. Hydrolic brakes and 19 inch wire wheels, Duesenberg was the first car guaranteed to go 100. It has an oil change system thats amazing. Put a pan under the car,turn a lever, the oil pours out,close the lever, pour in 12 quarts of 50W and you're off. Unlike most luxury cars of the period it was meant to be owner driven. When I bought it (last April at auction) it was a CCCA National Prize winner trailer queen disaster that hadn't been driven except on and off trailers in years. I had it shipped to my Ferrari dealer WWOC where the same person you see helping to cut the fender on my P4 Sal Barone,who like JRV began sweeping floors 30 years ago and now, like JRV, is a master,took it apart,and got it running like the day it left Indy 71 years ago. Driving it is like driving a time machine. | ||
| Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member Username: Wsawyer Post Number: 555 Registered: 2-2002 |
Jim, I don't want to hijack this thread, but I'd like to hear more about your Duesenberg. William H and I have been the primary Duesie defenders here, so it is great to have you along. Perhaps you can tell us about it in the Off Topic area. Beware, our friend Bret likes to call Duesenbergs "Nanny cars".  | ||
| Douglas A Hunt (Boxercrazy)
New member Username: Boxercrazy Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2002 |
you guys just keep on posting!!! this has to be the most interesting thread and i cant get enough!!!!! :-) douglas hunt | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 156 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wayne BTW this spring the car will be back in NY. At that time you're more than welcome to take a look at it. Figuring these things out takes a lot of time. It took me twelve years to get a copy of the LeMans registeration documents for the Ford MK-IV's from the LeMans authorities. (Lee Holman was finally able to get them for me) Even those documents had mistakes in them. It's like a murder case. Convincing yourself that the embrittlement and magnesium contamination in a piece of your chassis was caused by the fire that resulted when Amon tried to drive 0846 back to the pits after the head flew off the KO hammer and he was unable to change the flat tire and the wheel caught on fire at LeMans in 1967 is one thing. Convincing a jury is another. Having it be true is a third. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 152 Registered: 10-2002 |
One point I may have not been clear on: The Swiss Co. I bought this car from and the Swiss Co I was told imported "Ferrari P4 0846" into Swisserland under carnet in the 70ies though different Co's. were both owned by David Piper. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 151 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wayne That's exactly what I'm planning to do but first I'm going to continue to complete gathering info, and share everything I have with Ferrari, the same procedure I followed with MK-IV J5/MK-IV J6 and the Ford museam. Of course I'm aware that I'm not the first person to question P5 I only mention it as a well known website lists 0846 as its chassis which I believe isn't or wasn't ever correct. I always share whatever info I come up with. I did it with my Ford,my Lola and my Duesenberg. At the proper time I'll share everything I've learned about 0846 what ever it turns out to be. While determining the facts is interesting driving them ten's of thousands of miles is somehow a lot more fun. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 493 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jim, you may have evidence that P5 is not built on 0846 and, if so, you wouldn't be the first to question that fact. Others have suggested that P5 might have been built on something else, possibly a Dino of some kind. I am very interested in the details of the crash damage and any connection it might have to 0846. I, too, would like to "shout" the truth "from the rooftops." I know that you might not yet have conclusive evidence, but would you be willing to share what you have, in detail? You've made it clear in the past that you do not plan to sell the car and, therefore, won't profit from its provenance being determined as 0846. Still, I'm sure you are interested in discovering the truth and letting it be known. We share the same interests. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 150 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wayne As the good book says, (I borrowed the line in one of my movies Shakedown): The truth must be shouted from the roof tops. When considering any claim you have to be skeptical. That also means you have to admit the truth when faced with it. I think the facts clearly show that P5 is not 0846. If I am right then some very very prominent "experts", articles, websites, "Collectors", and one well known design firm aren't. I don't mind you "busting my balls" at all but I do think you have to admit that the evidence I cited on P5 raises some serious questions. My car, which to be very percise I bought from a Swiss corporation which research shows was owned by Piper, has a chassis that was converted from P3 configuration to P4 configuration at a later date. It shows signs of accident repair, which I am trying to determine if it matches the history of P3 0846 before it was converted to P4 0846 by Ferrari. If my chassis is a recreation, which could be, someone went to a lot of trouble to have it made,damaged repaired, converted with different welding techiniques over a period of years. A Swiss Co. did import "P4 0846" into Swisserland in the seventies and I have statements from the person who did a PPI on it for it's UK buyer. (Not Piper) It's interesting to note that this PPI ocurred at Sabarro's shop. Ferrari knows of my ownership of this car what ever it may or may not turn out to be, indeed they recently made uprights for it. I also find it very interesting that they now seem to allow 0900 to race in the Historic Challenge. When I'm done all of my research will be turned over to them. It's possible that this mystery will never be fully solved, but whether or not you believe it: I really don't care. I'm never going to sell it, and if I did this car will always be a very very "Storied" car. That said if parts of it were recreated it's still quite a piece of work that was raced at least by Piper and John Surtees and that's not too bad. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 490 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jim, if it sounds like I'm busting your balls a little, of course I am. Certainly you wouldn't expect to step forward and proclaim that you have found a long-lost example of an extremely rare and expensive automobile without facing some skepticism. Still, I'm very interested to hear what evidence has led you to make the connection between this ex-Piper recreation and 0846. If any hard evidence exists, would you be willing to share your findings? Feel free to e-mail me directly. BTW, I want to clarify something for everyone else who is reading this and has read my previous posts in the "Older Ferraris" thread. At first I mistook this car for s/n 0900, another Piper recreation built on real P4 parts. I was mistaken. Mr. Keith Bluemel has kindly pointed out to me that David Piper still owns 0900 and recently raced the car in the Challenge finals at Misano last month. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 149 Registered: 10-2002 |
When I bought this car from Piper he did not represent that it was 0846. Investigation, which is still on going has led me to believe that there's more to the story of 0846 and that P5 is not built on 0846. The wheelbase is shorter (93.7 vs 94.5) Other differences between the P4 and P5: Front track 58.6 vs 55.1. Rear track 57.1 vs 53.3 Karl Ludvigsen "The frame structure is essentially that of a Dino, similar to the P4,with its tubular space layout strengthened by stressed fiberglass,but smaller,lighter and less complex...To move the Dino frame Ferrari could call on a Formula 1 engine...the V 12 is the same type as used at Monza." The suspension copies the Dino. The gearbox is a three shaft with inboard disk brakes off the 250LM/P. At the present time 0846 remains a mystery that I'm still trying to solve, but like the mystery of J6/J5 that I unraveled it may not be what people think it is. If it turns out that my car is simply a collection of P4 spares built up by Piper and restored by me then thats what I'll find out, but analization of the chassis welds,tubes and stampings leads me to believe there's more to it than that. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 483 Registered: 8-2002 |
RE: "My P4 after winning Daytona" in the thread,http://server.ferrarichat.com/~ferrari/ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/14/173918.html?1038425096 I'm curious: When Piper sold you this car, did he represent it as chassis# 0846 or did you come by that via your own research? | ||
| James Napolis (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 148 Registered: 10-2002 |
Napolis is my address in Ferrari's email system. When I entered my email address I seem to have changed my name here as well. Will try to change it back. I was given the nickname "Napolis" by a drunken friend who was trying to say I was driving like an "Indianapolis driver" before he passed out. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 482 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jim: This is off the subject, but why the switch from "Glickenhaus" to "Napolis?" | ||
| James Napolis (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 145 Registered: 10-2002 |
Thanks. One recent event concerning it's history/provanance. I recently received a copy of an invoice from FNA as per instructions of Ferrari SPA through WWOC to me for 8 "P4 SUSPENSION PA" These are the uprights that the Ferrari factory recast for me in alum. as I felt mag. is too fragile for my intended use. | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 380 Registered: 4-2002 |
Of course there are those of us who don't care about perceived values if they think the product looks a pile of ****. The so called Breadvan you can keep thanks. Now that P4, thats a different story entirely, what a beauty, whatever its history/provenance. I can well understand why you could never part with it! | ||
| john w. houghtaling, II (Johnhoughtaling)
New member Username: Johnhoughtaling Post Number: 11 Registered: 11-2002 |
The breadvan is a very interesting example often used when discussing the legitamacy of rebodies, but I'm not altogether sure it is used correctly as an example. First, the breadvan was not just a rebodied SWB. S/n 2819 was one of the original SEFAC hot rods which ran second in the Tour De France. It was then sold to Count Volpi, who had his order for a new GTO cancelled by Enzo Ferrari after it was learned that Volpi would amass an attack on the 1962 Lemans Race. The 2819 was converted into the breadvan by Bizzarini, the father of the GTO, after five of the top brass at Ferrari left, and were subsequently hired by Volpi. 2819 was converted by Bizzarini and his team for Volpi. The SWB body was taken off, the engine was mounted lower in the chassis and farther rearward. Other modification, including the body were built for the 62 LeMans race. The Breadvan is far more than a rebodied Ferrari. It was built from one of Ferrari's top racers, to beat the GTO, by Ferrari's top engineers who built the GTO. A very significant car. The breadvan is valuable because it is the breadvan. Not because it is a strange SWB body. It is true that this car is of exceptional value and fame, and it does not have the original body as it left the factory, but to use the Breadvan as "the" example of a valuable rebody is slightly missing the mark. Take this as an example of what I mean. First, assume you are soley interested in the monetary value of your car. Second, assume you owned one of the very rare 250 SWB SEFAC hot rods, with an non-original SWB body. Third, assume you could find the original body (at no extra cost to you) and you could replace your non-original body with the original body. Would you do it? Of course you would. Now, assume you own the Breadvan. Assume also that you could get the original body of 2819 (which still exists) and at no cost you could replace the Breadvan's body with the original body of 2819, and restore it back to a SWB. Would your car be worth more by this? Of course it wouldn't. When valuing a vintage Ferrari racing car the most important principle is the car's providence and history. The more of the originallity of this providence and history that exists, the better. This is true of the breadvan and any other significant Ferrari racing car. As far as the "rebody" debate is concerned: as a general rule, a body which is original is more cherished than a non-originial body. However, because of the former principle, the Breadvan is an execption rather than an example of the "rebody" debate. John W. Houghtaling, II | ||
| Bryan Phillips (Bryanp)
New member Username: Bryanp Post Number: 12 Registered: 8-2002 |
In one of the very recent Ferrari Market Letters, Gerald Roush dedicated the front page column to the controversy surrounding the phenomena of "recreations" and "restorations" out of bits of original Ferrari racers. Apparently, Ferrari's lawyers have gotten into the game on the theory that every "recreation" is in fact a trademark violation. Roush points out the slippery slope involved when the Ferrari restored is no longer the original Ferrari. Every reasonable person knows that a 250 GTO created out of a surviving tach needle is not the original - but what happens when the frame and body are the original, but not the engine? Roush mentions in the article that there are now twice as many 250GTO recreations than there were original GTOs. Joel's point is well taken that there are practically no vintage racing Ferraris out there with their original engines. Ferrari itself played the number-restamping game back in the day - see, e.g., the Series II Mondial on www.symbolicmotors.com where Ferrari clearly overstamped the motor number with an earlier chassis number for tax purposes (that's another whole explanation). I think Gerald's point is - if you/ve created a pontoon-fendered Testa Rossa from a shift knob, just say so and don't misrepresent what the vehicle is. The odds of this happenening, though, is slim when there is so much money involved IMHO. | ||
| James Napolis (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 88 Registered: 10-2002 |
There's an interesting detail you can see in the latest pics. The windshield is mounted to a frame that screws into the recesssed windhield surround. The windshield can be unbolted and removed very quickly for servicing. Note the oil fill. The photo is covering the duct that cools the alternator. A small scoop will be added. The details are what take so long. When restoring one must decide many things. I'm keeping the wheel sizes that Piper and John Surtees used up until I bought this car: 11X15 Fronts and 11X15 Rears as thats the size that were used as the P4 evolved into the 350 CanAm but the motor remains P4 not bored out to 350 Can AM size. I think the Stroll car remains P4 but believe the other two have been bored out. Arlie as long as you disclose exactly what you've done there's no problem. Race cars were raced and that often involved many, many changes. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 400 Registered: 5-2002 |
Terry, I assume that 250TR was completely rebuilt using only a fraction of the original car. Except of course the VIN tags were re-riveted on the completed car and, VIOLA...instant credibility. How come if I take an original VIN take off a 1974 Plymouth and swap it onto another '74 Plymouth or a frame of my own contstruction then I am guilty of fraud, false registration, counterfeiting, etc. But if I do it to a classic Ferrari, that's OK??????? Double standard. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 399 Registered: 5-2002 |
That brings to mind the same old question: Why do old Ferrari racers bring so much money, when in reality, chances are it has been re-bodied, re-engined, and re-outfitted with newer parts to the extent that nothing is left of the original car except the frame! A half million dollars or more for a frame??? Call the psychiatrist please. If I bought an original pair of shoes worn by George Washington and later found out that the soles and heels had been replaced, the laces were new, and they had been re-dyed, would they be the same shoes??? | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 317 Registered: 4-2002 |
Arlie, The question of how many parts still make up a whole from a value perspective can be a big issue. I remember reading about a 250TR that was destroyed when a garage burned to the ground. The remains were bulldozed into a hole and left buried for 20 years. When the cars were suddenly worth millions in the late 80's, it along with a Alfa 2900 Corsa Spyder were unearthed and "rebuilt". Of coarse the remains were not much more than twisted and rusted to almost nothing wreckage totally unrecognizable as a car.... but they had the VIN plates. I seriously doubt that 250TR today is valued like another more original example. I recently read of a Jaguar D-Type that sold at auction for around $400K which is really cheap for a D. The value was so low because of questions with the provenance. This particular D was rebuilt in the 70's with a new front subframe and some other parts. Later, someone took these discarded parts and built another D making claim to the same VIN. Both have a large number of original parts.... but as you can see from the sale price their value is greatly reduced due to the questions. In this case, the buyer was very smart: HE was the owner of the other D-type making claim to this VIN. He can now put all of the original parts back together and have an unquestioned fully authentic D-type worth double what he paid for this car at auction, and he will have a really great replica to play with. I think significant old cars that have been rebuilt or rebodied due to racing damage suffer no loss in value and may actually gain due to the racing history. I sure wouldnt care if my 750 Monza had been wrecked a few times! | ||
| Joel Belser (Driver)
New member Username: Driver Post Number: 12 Registered: 9-2002 |
There is probably not one "original" race car in existance! Parts are constantly being replaced and updated. Is there a Ferrari racer from the 50's or 60's that is as it was the day it rolled out of the factory? I doubt it. I watched 002 get rebodied. It had been through several rebodies, and the one I witnessed brought it back to the original appearance. It is worth a few bucks. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 397 Registered: 5-2002 |
Yes Ken, there have been numerous instances of fraud in the Corvette world at least. Engine pads have been reground and restamped a zillion times. It is a science unto itself. Even the correct character and font style of the stamped numbers are well known and used for the "proper" counterfeit. Starting in 1967, Corvettes were assembled with a computer printout that listed all the cars options. The printout was attatched to the gas tank as it went down the assembly line. There were guys who were even counterfeiting the computer printouts in order to build a car in any manner they liked. The original GM computer printers back in the late '60s printed their letter "O' with squared off corners. Later counterfeits have a rounded "O'. That's how to tell the fakes. Of course by now, somebody has probably corrected that flaw in the fakes. But as far as rare Ferraris and others, I still don't understand how a re-body could stand up to scrutiny. Didn't the original bodys have serial number tags? And if the body was trashed after an accident, didn't the serial number tag get trashed with it? If so, it would seem that some of the credibility is lost. Sure, most of the cars have serial number stampings on the frames, but didn't they also have a serial number tag on the body? And if the original body is long gone, the tag is most likely gone also. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 560 Registered: 10-2001 |
Arlie, I think there's no hard and fast rule. For cars that only 3 or 4 were made, they are a world unto themselves. Engine and frame are most important; a replaced gauge would be as insignificant as a rebody. For something like a 288 GTO I would think replaced trim bits, and things like seats, wheels, etc. would indeed impact the value somewhat, as well as overall condition. For Vettes, Mustangs, etc. I'm sure you need a very high degree of originality to command the premium prices. You seem more knowledgable than I am on those cars. As far as more numbers matching now than in the past, I submit that since these cars are so significantly more valuable than they used to be, they get more attention and publicity. Or are you contending there's massive fraud in the muscle car market these days? Then there's cars like my 72 Europa which is very original for a Europa but many concessions have been made for driveability. My car is actually worth a lot more than a "concourse" Europa unless it's in tip top mint condition; then they sell for about the same price. I'll be the first to admit however that no one "collects" Europas; at least not on purpose, so that's not comparable to a P4, 288 GTO or your better Vettes and Mustangs. | ||
| James Napolis (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 87 Registered: 10-2002 |
Engine is original see "what do people know about older" thread Best Jim | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1810 Registered: 9-2001 |
matt check this thread out, http://server.ferrarichat.com/~ferrari/ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/21/151950.html?1037248304 | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Junior Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 236 Registered: 3-2001 |
Jim/James...that is spectacular! Can you please give me some engine specs? | ||
| James Napolis (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 86 Registered: 10-2002 |
Inch by Inch   | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2654 Registered: 12-2000 |
I think the market recognizes when it goes too far, I think there's 3 of one LM running around, but any one of them only sells at a fraction of most LM's. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 375 Registered: 5-2002 |
I will agree with you on that one Paul. There are more "matching numbers" muscle cars today than there were in 1972!!! Amazing how all those original engine blocks were unearthed. I thought sure that most of them were blown apart while street racing years ago. But looks like I was wrong because they've all been found, rebuilt, and returned to their rightful original cars! So this brings about another question: Just how LITTLE can be left of a Ferrari and yet it still be the original car? A frame and/or engine and/or body? A bare frame with serial numbers? A body? An engine block? I still think Jim's car is incredible. Looks more like aircraft restoration. I bet it took alot of courage to take a Sawsall/air cutter to that fender the first time! | ||
| Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member Username: Pcelenta Post Number: 197 Registered: 7-2002 |
Arlie, I think it has an effect more on American muscle cars ie: chevelles,cudas,corvette,stang's etc...because 1) many more were made 2) it is easier to dummy up a low level model ie:convert a basic chevelle to an SS...Have you noticed that there are so many more matching numbers muscle cars these days? | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 128 Registered: 9-2001 |
I stand corrected, the breadvan is a SWB, but my point remains, it is a very valuable and notable Ferrari and more so because of the Drogo rebody. | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 320 Registered: 10-2001 |
Drive it on the street !! AWESOME ! im moving to the USA !! This car is the sexiest ever . BTW, the breadvan was a SWB not a GTO . | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 482 Registered: 3-2002 |
Arlie, you are correct, there is a different standard. It took me a long time to understand this. The cars you mention are all production based cars and are not significant, collectable, but not historically important as an individual car. You will notice that early Ferrari are listed by serial number more so than by body type. A 166 may have started as a coupe, then became a spyder and the rebodied again as a coupe. The person owning that car today could restore it to any of the previous bodies and be "correct". Remember, Ferrari never made its own bodies, these were done by individual coach buliding companies, Zagato, Bertone, Pinn Farina, Touring and others..... It can be difficult to understand by US production based standards! | ||
| Jim Glickenhaus (Napolis)
New member Username: Napolis Post Number: 38 Registered: 10-2002 |
Arlie First the value of this car and all my collector cars is zero as I never plan to sell them. Secondly older Ferrari's esp. old race cars were raced, crashed, rebuilt,rebodied (often by Ferrari) many,many times. All of this becomes part of a cars history. Sometimes it becomes almost impossible to know the truth. (See post on my Ford MK-IV in "older") Anyone who owns any car that they love is very lucky. Everyone else should simply display their canceled check... | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
New member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 44 Registered: 3-2002 |
Terry is exactly right. These cars were working tools in their day and parts were rebuilt or replaced as needed. A competition car is going to pay it's dues and if it has to be rebodied over time so be it. | ||
| Terry (Dogue)
Junior Member Username: Dogue Post Number: 127 Registered: 9-2001 |
I could be wrong, but the reason a rebody of a P4 would not hurt the value is because it was a Prototype racecar and as Chris mentioned would have the body replaced, probably a few times in its racing career. There were only 3 P4s and probably all 3 have gone through a rebody. With cars like this race history and chassis and engine numbers matter most. The Daytona winning 330P4 with a brand new body will be worth more than a showroom non raced car (if one existed). Ferrari is about history! The breadvan GTO is a rebody and is worth a healthy amount. Most Ferraris that have heavy race histories will have new bodies at some point. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 374 Registered: 5-2002 |
Cmparrf, if the fact that Jim's car (or anybody else's ) Ferrari has been rebodied will have NO effect on its value, then there certainly would seem to be a double standard in the collector car world. Practically any modern collector car has identification tags or marks on the body as well as the frame. Any NON-original body would certainly be detectable, and in most circles, would greatly de-value the car compared to a total original. It works that way in Corvette circles, Ford Cobras, Hemi Chryslers, Ultra Rare ZL1 block Camaros, etc. Why would a Ferrari be excempt from the same common sense? Don't get me wrong, I am NOT picking on Jim's beautiful car. I think it is fantastic! But among the ultra-finicky world of high dollar classic cars, isn't a RE-BODY going to have a stigma attached to it that a complete original will simply not have? In more simplistic terms, if I tried to sell a rebodied 1963 fuel injected Corvette, I would be laughed at and considered a shyster unless I disclosed that fact up front. But if it's a rebodied Ferrari, well that's no problem. Why the double standard? Once again, I am not picking on Jim's car, but I have wondered about this double standard for years. It seems that if Joe Smith's collector car has a non-orignal engine or body, then it's a substandard piece of junk. But if Joe Millionaire's collector car has a non-original engine or body, well, that's just fine, no problem. What's up with that? | ||
| Jim Glickenhaus (Napolis)
New member Username: Napolis Post Number: 37 Registered: 10-2002 |
The remains of this car, the factory P4 spares, and this body were all bought from Enzo Ferrari by Piper at the same time. If you look on the "older Ferrari" thread you'll find more info that I believe to be true. | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 480 Registered: 3-2002 |
Arlie, I can not answer for Jim, but it is my impression that the fact that this car has been rebodied has no impact on its value. I am sure Jim will correct me, but as long as the frame is contains a correct serial number and the engine is correct and that this is in fact a car that left Maranello (not made up from Ferrari parts) the car will be considered correct. So many of the race cars of this vintage are on there 3rd or 4th body, impossible to tell what is orginal! | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 373 Registered: 5-2002 |
Jim, I am curious about one thing. You said that the aluminum body was bought seperately from the car 30 years ago. Does the body itself have any serial numbers or identification marks stamped on it by the Ferrari factory to verify its origin? If somebody happened across an old Ferrari chassis and had a body remanufactured and installed TODAY, would their car be as credible as yours? In other words, can a 30 year old original Ferrari body be distinguished from a body manufactered by a coach builder TODAY? | ||
| Jim Glickenhaus (Napolis)
New member Username: Napolis Post Number: 36 Registered: 10-2002 |
When spare bodies are made (This one was bought by Piper 30 years ago from Enzo Ferrari) they are always made over size. We are simply trimming it to it's proper line. When Piper raced the car he used a fiberglass body as it was easier to repair. I'm restoring it with a proper NOS alum body. | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 411 Registered: 4-2002 |
Why are you cutting the fender? Isn't it desireable to leave them as is? Incredible car. Should turn a few heads. | ||
| Jim Glickenhaus (Napolis)
New member Username: Napolis Post Number: 35 Registered: 10-2002 |
Rossa Corsa | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 479 Registered: 3-2002 |
Incredible! This is the coolest car! What color will it be? They look great in yellow! | ||
| Jim Glickenhaus (Napolis)
New member Username: Napolis Post Number: 34 Registered: 10-2002 |
I bought this car from David Piper about two years ago. Most of the work is done. Ferrari recast the uprights (They are works of art) and the cornors are done. Hopefully the painting should start soon. I hope to be finished by spring. When it's done I'm going to register it, drive it on the street,and take it to shows. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2648 Registered: 12-2000 |
Jim, tell us a little about the overall project. How long been going on? How much is left? Plans after complete? Awesome awesome awesome! | ||
| Jim Glickenhaus (Napolis)
New member Username: Napolis Post Number: 33 Registered: 10-2002 |
Somethings are still done by hand...        |