| Author | Message | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3211 Registered: 5-2001 |
Welcome Bryan, great to have another classic car resource on this board. | ||
| Bryan Phillips (Bryanp)
New member Username: Bryanp Post Number: 6 Registered: 8-2002 |
Rubirosa was definitely a stud. I looked at the previous thread on him, Rob, and I note two things. First - Rubi died in a 250 PF Cabriolet - I have the s/n somewhere around here and have seen pictures of the wreck (head on into a tree). . . . Second, the 500 Mondial pictured in the Rubi websites is of a Series 1 Mondial, and not my father's car - it's entirley possible that he owned a series 1 before he got the blue series 2. As far as dad's car is concerned, he has a ton of stories, including the tale of when he drove it from San Francisco to New Jersey in the early 1960s. Through researching his own car for twenty years, there's not much he doesn't know about the 500 Mondials and the 750 Monzas - lots of time spent at Library of Congress looking at microfiche of old Italian newspaper racing results. There were tons of inaccuracies in reporting back then, mostly because THE only way to visually distinguish between a 2 liter Series II Mondial (ten of them made) and a 3 liter 750 Monza is by the diameter of the bell mouth at the Webers and the diameter of the header at the exhaust port - other than that they are identical. | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Junior Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 89 Registered: 9-2002 |
Bryan, Awesome car with an interesting history. I'm sure I speak for a pretty big part of the board when I say that the historied cars are the most interesting ones. Please share any more tales you might have. I'm also curious to see what Mr. Ausbrooks has to say about this car (anything particular?). --Dan | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2738 Registered: 12-2000 |
Porfirio Rubirosa!!! My hero. Check out this old thread on him. http://server.ferrarichat.com/~ferrari/ferrarichat.com/discus/messages/21/51160.html | ||
| Bryan Phillips (Bryanp)
New member Username: Bryanp Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2002 |
I hope this worked . . This is a shot of dad's series 2 500 Mondial winning the 2 liter class of the Grand Prix of Venezuela in November 1955. The car in this shot is being driven by Harry Schell, but was taken over by Eugenio Castellotti after EC blew the motor on his big 860 Monza. By the end of the race, EC was turning quicker lap times than Fangio (the overall winner) in his 3 liter Maserati. The car (0556MD(0446MD)) was a factory entry for this race and therefore wore the Scuderia shields. It was french racing blue because it was originally sold to a French privateer, Francois Picard and his partner Gino Munaron, who later sold it back to Ferrari. After this race, Ferrari sold it to Porfirio Rubirosa who raced it at Nassau and won the 2 liter class of the 1956 12 Hours of Sebring. Probably a lot more info than you cared to know . . .  | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1734 Registered: 9-2001 |
Bryan Posts pics please!!!! | ||
| Bryan Phillips (Bryanp)
New member Username: Bryanp Post Number: 2 Registered: 8-2002 |
Thank for the welcome - I'm generally a fan of older Ferraris, but am thirsty for anything Ferrari. This site is a tremendous resource. I've helped my father research and preserve his 1955 Series II 500 Mondial that he has owned since 1960. Check out the 'La Bella e La Bestia' article in Forza #37 - May 2002 - where it is featured. Now THAT'S a Ferrari . . . | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3514 Registered: 2-2001 |
Welcome Bryan..... | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 412 Registered: 11-2001 |
Welcome aboard Bryan. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2725 Registered: 12-2000 |
Welcome Bryan to FerrariChat.com! Especially with the good insight you have and I'm also a little partial to the classic Ferraris. Beautiful car! | ||
| Bryan Phillips (Bryanp)
New member Username: Bryanp Post Number: 1 Registered: 8-2002 |
Sorry, I'm late to this thread - re: Luigi Chinetti - I had the opportunity recently to talk at length to one of the original founders of the FCA. He made it clear that one of the main reasons for the formation of the club was the frustration of Ferrari owners taking it in the shorts from Chinetti whether over access to new cars, parts or service. He joked that they named it the "Ferrari Club of America" because "Ferrari Owner's Defense Against Luigi Chinetti League" was too much of a mouthful. The conversation started because he was chuckling over the irony of the FCA's giving a "Chinetti Award" at an FCA show . . . Great site, Rob - my first post. Bryan | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3507 Registered: 2-2001 |
Again I agree, It is if the guy just wants a quickie or not. Vette or Ferrari. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2902 Registered: 2-2001 |
I don't know, they say prostitution is the oldest trade. Anything around that long must work...  | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3502 Registered: 2-2001 |
Bret, What you say is true but the crazy thing is that this is one of the things that makes the car unique. It is something a guy is going to have to wait for and thus making the prize more enticing when he gets it. It is like pursuing the woman who is out there for the taking and keeping you waiting with the desire to posses her. It is the part of the chase, the quest, that interests man. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2897 Registered: 2-2001 |
I see what Clax is saying, at this point even if I had the money I wouldn't want a 360, I would stick with getting used cars like a 355 or a 550. It seems that you buy a $170K car and then a couple years later Ferrari deems this car no longer up to par and replaces it. Yes, this is how the auto industry works, but this is at a much grander scale and one I wouldn't touch until (or if) I became quite wealthy. That said is just my own opinions on money. The part that really gets me though is that you order a car today and by the time they deliver it, it's worth essentially $40k less because the next day the new latest and greatest hit the floor making your car outdated. Granted if you are one of those lucky guys that has a good spot on the list and got your 360 in 99 this is no big deal, but the average guy with no connections that walks in there doesn't have this type of preferred treatment for the most part. I know some of you will say you gut your 360 in 4 months, etc, but I'm sure there are guys out there now that are ordering and will get those last few 360s before the new car comes out, the one they could drive for a year and then sell for $50K over msrp. Granted none of this applies to me as I work for a sub of FNA and definitely don't have $170K burning my pocket, but still, the system is kind of jerked off. Could you picture if they made you order a Corvette 3 years before you got it, isn't the point of ordering a high dollar personalized car to get better service than at a place that so many Fcar owners look down upon, the Chevy dealership. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 68 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>Too much artificial hype and hysteria for my taste. With the Lambo, I have none of that<<< HaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHaHa!!!!!! Get ready for a reality check. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3500 Registered: 2-2001 |
Clax, Why would you let a few opinions and comments or B.S. as you call it persuade you not to buy the car you like? I am sure any board of auto enthusiasts you join will have their opinions and B.S. also. | ||
| J Claxton (Clax)
New member Username: Clax Post Number: 10 Registered: 10-2002 |
All this Ferrari NA political nonsense had a lot to do with me ordering a new L140 Lambo instead of purchasing a 360 (or waiting on the new 420). Too much artificial hype and hysteria for my taste. With the Lambo, I have none of that. Just a 500HP 4WD monster that arrives in September of next year. Don't get me wrong. I'm not knocking Ferrari. I love the 360 (and many other Ferrari's), and my desire to purchase a 360 was the main reason why I joined this board. But, in the midst of my search, I grew tired of all the BS surrounding it. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2895 Registered: 2-2001 |
LOL Martin. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3183 Registered: 5-2001 |
hi hi hi... greaseball is my other personallity! I know what you were going to say and you are right: "The better one"  | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2890 Registered: 2-2001 |
That's why I figured it would just be best to come and say who shared the IPs. JRV is not the type to do something like this, mystery solved it's an AOL thing apparently. Had you said Martin shared the IP though we might have thought differently... | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Junior Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 73 Registered: 3-2002 |
Hello: Unfortunately I live in Hot Houston, Texas. We are all trapped here. Just a boring business town. This is why Boeing is in business. Yes I love RE's. It will take time to purchase one in the future. Remember my wife thinks it is just a regular car that costs a "little" bit more than the BMW Z-3 roadster. Bless her heart. Thank g/d she has 0 knowledge about cars. Nika would probably agree. Lets move on to another topic. The horse has been beaten enough. The Corvette is a superb car. The BEST value for the money. bar none ------ I had a new 1990 Z-51 coupe. Ralph | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3172 Registered: 5-2001 |
Actually that is one of those wise tales that in a hot climate the temerature increases so much more in a black car. Fact is it only increases 2�. Just harder on the paint and black in general requires much more care and proper cleaning. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 551 Registered: 3-2002 |
ralph, i saw a black on black 996 tt yesterday and it looked great, actually that would b my pick. it just looks mean and purposeful....unless you live in a hot climate of course. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3170 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ralph, I never meant to offend anybody. I could not see why you would be looking at a 12+ year old car and then decide to buy a 2003 P car. You have explained that and that is okay to me. Hey at the end of the day it is your money and last time I checked you can still do with that whatever you want to do. Those that think my Corvette comments were out there, well I still think that all old Vettes suck. But if you revisit the Z06 thread you will see my appology to those with the Z06s and likely the 05 as well. After having driven the new one on the track I have to admit this is nothing as the old ones (04 and Stingray) I had. As I said Ralph I am convinced that you will soon buy a Ferrari. There must be a reason why you stick around | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Junior Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 72 Registered: 3-2002 |
Will: Blk/Blk I did not pick this combination. It is growing on me though. Just have to watch door dings etc.... Don't really know about the times you are asking. The 415 bhp car does 0-60 around 4 sec flat with a 190 mph top speed. Ralph | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2704 Registered: 12-2000 |
Don't worry, you're clear JRV. You did have the same IP as Tony and Bill, but just because you dial in with AOL. AOL has only a few dozen IP's for their proxy servers. I still haven't received a response from AOL, but I now believe Tony, Bill, and you are all different users. Sorry for misunderstanding. I don't think I ever accussed anyone, just stated the fact who all had the same IP. | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
New member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2002 |
I assure you my son is not named William IV. Wish my parents were more creative. You want to lose big money? Buy a Bentley or Rolls. They have the depreciation market cornered. My Fiorano was a quote/unquote a special car as the dealer said. But, in reality all F wanted to do was dump the last 100 355s they had in production as the 360 had just about froze 355s on showroom floors. And you are right in that any modern era car except maybe for the very limited ones aka McLaren F1, Daytona Comp or Spider, Barchetta, F40, F50, 288 will drop in value. The only good financial part about most modern era Ferraris or Porsches is that they will eventually stabilize and not plummet to zero value as most cars do regardless of mileage. The ideal time to buy nice examples and use them. The early cars with history MAY be an investment IF you find a buyer when you want to seel it that will pay the price. But we all remember $1M 365GTB/4's don't we? I doubt though that those who buy real investment grade cars and put them in collections for occasional use really care much about ROI. I think the conclusion Ralph is that we are all happy you found something to float your boat car wise regardless of manufacturer and regardless of whether this is a Ferrari site or not. One person's comments do not represent those of all Ferrari owners. I have even been thinking about a Superformance Cobra 427SC with a big block for cheap and low maintenance fun. I'd be nuts to mention that purchase on here as I'd likely get mugged outside my office based on the comments you drew by not being loyal to the "Jumping Horse". Does the X50 break 200mph theoretically and what is the 0-60 time? I imagine the brakes are the best available at this time. What color combination? Will | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 64 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hmmmmmm, Uhhhhhhhh, I revisited this thread to make you Ferrari guys feel better with a Lambo Murcielago price story to find I'm being accused of something ? Will I need a lawyer for this :-(? All I can say is I'm me and post under my own name. I've never been accused of hiding my opinions...LOL...in fact the opposite is more accurate. Don't know what else to say. | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 550 Registered: 3-2002 |
yes i have pursued a couple for fun as well. the best time was when there was a middleman in between who actually believed the nigerians, and he opened a performance bond to me.....cashed that thx very much. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Junior Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 71 Registered: 3-2002 |
Of course that would have to be a PAL or multisystem TV in 220? Not exactly the type in a trailer park. Well maybe the Nigerian lawyers in the USA could sell the TV's on E bay? Oh well.... Just a thought. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Junior Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 70 Registered: 3-2002 |
Ross: I was just having some FUN. I would not touch them with a ten foot pole. around 3.5 meters for anyone outside the USA. LOL. We had tea last night with a few friends. One of the guys in the group who told us how he pursued the scam for fun. He knew it was a complete scam from the word go. He went back and forth with several calls from Nigeria ( they called him ). They mailed several overnite letters etc... There were Nigerian lawyers in the USA that contacted him. He knew it would finally come to a close. At last they asked for 5K to draft some type of papers. He said he had no problem with that. He just insisted that the 5K be taken out of his pot of gold. They obviously refused. They are clever in not just asking for money on the first call. They must be making money on this scam. Perhaps they might take a 51 inch big screen TV in place of the 5K deposit. They might have better results with the TV's. Ralph Ralph | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 549 Registered: 3-2002 |
i hope you are joking about the nigerians....have some experience with these scams in case you need real advice. otherwise i would strongly advise steering clear of them. | ||
| Ralph Koslin (Ralfabco)
Junior Member Username: Ralfabco Post Number: 69 Registered: 3-2002 |
Hello: This is fun. The posts are getting more colorful. I am not offended by Martins opinion on my purchase. I doubt he would feel that way; if I had purchased a new 456 or Maranello. This is a Ferrari Site though. No new regular production car is an investment. We all know that. The 360 Spider ( a terrific car IMO ) will do fine until the new model is introduced. What happened with the 348 and 355 in the past? The owners will do fine by turning their vehicles before the new model is introduced. I do not think it is wise to try to explain what is and what is not a smart purchase. I consider the 996 nothing more than a fun toy. I wanted a car that had more performance than a Z 06 or Viper. You want an investment? Spend money in your business or consider real estate. - Not a regular production vehicle. You want a real bath? Go purchase a new expensive luxury vehicle. bottom line: As with almost everyone it is an emotional decision. I can alway make money back by racing Ferrari's on the street !!! Wanna race? A shot across the bow ? Did'nt we learn anything from the Fast and the Furious? All good fun. On a more serious note I will make alot of money from those people in Nigeria. They have promised me millions. Then I will purchase the new Enzo. Ralph | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 232 Registered: 6-2002 |
William the 3rd - nicely said. Jim S. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1678 Registered: 9-2001 |
william welcome to the site - sorry this was your first post experience. Check out our Nj get togethers | ||
| James Dixon (Omnadren250)
Member Username: Omnadren250 Post Number: 339 Registered: 7-2001 |
Wmontgomery, It was actually me who incorrectly named you as the third mystery poster, based on the fact that you had just one post under your belt, along with the other users. I apologize. Read 3-4 posts down, Rob Lay told everbody it wasn't you. | ||
| James Dixon (Omnadren250)
Member Username: Omnadren250 Post Number: 338 Registered: 7-2001 |
Fair enough guys, I don't agree with his attacks on a good guy like Martin, and some of the other stuff he has written as other users. But his first post on the "ended up with a P-car thread" was a well done and thoughfull post, without personally attacking anybody. In fact, it was Martin who was ball busting Ralph, using some wacked out, Ferrari biased logic that prompted the initial response from "the greaseball" | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
New member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2002 |
What is the big deal about my name? It is William III if that makes it more meaningful to you. Hardly a unique name. As far as parts prices go who cares? If you need it and someone has it either pay the price or go without. That is up to you. FNA is not running a nonprofit organization you know. I findit surprising that they keep their dealer network from charging over sticker on desirable models and letting the used market get the big money as on the spyder. The Chevy dealer charged over when the Z06 was new and Caddy did with the Escalade but it is hidden as some sort of charge and there is no discount as we have become used to with American car dealers. I seem to recall that started with the original Honda Accord in 76? when dealers increased price by 50% by adding on crap. Once saw a dealer, forget what car, have a several thousand dollar charge blatantly listed as "market availability surcharge". If you want it, need it, desire it, pay it. Pretty simple and a great position for a company to be in. If you think the dealers exist on the markup on new cars you are crazy. Without parts, body work and service they'd be gone. Probably why we all get thos epost cards for annual fluids, etc for a thousand bucks. I considered a Euro 360 from AmeriSpec due to price of course. I think Ferrari's move not to service Euro cars or honor warranty was a smart one. If they did why wouldn't everybody drive Euros then and make warranty claims against the non-selling dealer network. A nice way togive away the farm. Rob Lay, you seem to be the man in charge here, do you treat every new poster this way? WMontgomery III | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1677 Registered: 9-2001 |
Bret you are right - hypocrites. Chow - oh sorry Ciao | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2701 Registered: 12-2000 |
Hmm, from reading the posts, it just doesn't seem like those are the same users. I think it's an AOL thing. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3169 Registered: 5-2001 |
WHart, you are right on. Legally likely not possible. Ethical very much wrong IMHOP. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2699 Registered: 12-2000 |
It's not WMontgomery. Since I don't want people to falsely accuse and then maybe if I say the names, then that user can defend themselves. Innocent until proven guilty please. The IP's match, but I can't technically say if that's a guarantee it's the same user. Someone might analyze the wording and spelling of all three to match up. Bill Johnston, Tony Greaseball and JRV. I find it hard to believe it's JRV because he's a long time respected Ferrari/Lambo mechanic. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2177 Registered: 12-2000 |
James Dixon, please, the comments made by those three-musketeers are in no way funny. They are down-right offensive and abusive. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3493 Registered: 2-2001 |
James, Just read your post again and think about it. That is a ridiculous statement about the humor of his comments. No humor there. That guy was malicious and a jerk in all of his comments and none as I asked you "were beneficial to this site." | ||
| James Dixon (Omnadren250)
Member Username: Omnadren250 Post Number: 336 Registered: 7-2001 |
Easy Magoo!!!, your pants must be on too tight again. Just because I enjoy the hidden humour in Tony's posts doesn't make me any better or worse than him. Jeesh, some of you guys take these things way to seriously. I guess that is one of the costs of owning cars that are unreliable and expensive to fix. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3490 Registered: 2-2001 |
James, I find it odd for anyone to like his posts. There is nothing constructive about them and they are filled with resentment and bitterness. This guy obviously has a problem and should keep it to himself. He is talking about a guy Martin who has been on this site for many years and has contributed much to it. This guys only contribution is to attack a guy unfairly and act like a jerk. If you find his comments to be beneficial to this site you are no better than he is. | ||
| James Dixon (Omnadren250)
Member Username: Omnadren250 Post Number: 335 Registered: 7-2001 |
Bill Johnson, Tony Greaseball and Wmontgomery must be the same person. I like the Greaseballs posts, so hopefully he keeps posting on here. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2883 Registered: 2-2001 |
Rob all the tension, who is it? Theoretically we should maintain a confidentiality, but if you have to resort to making up offensive fake names to state the highly controversial thoughts on your mind, then should the site really be looking out for your privacy? | ||
| Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Member Username: Kennyh Post Number: 446 Registered: 8-2001 |
Then they are the same person- or using the same computer on the same connections ;) | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2697 Registered: 12-2000 |
There are 3 users on this thread with the exact same IP, last 3 digits and all. | ||
| Kenny Herman (Kennyh)
Member Username: Kennyh Post Number: 445 Registered: 8-2001 |
Rob, from experience, people who have similar IP's for instance: 141.149.38.118 is the same as: 141.149.38.125 and: 141.149.38.175 Basically, when you live in a certain region, AOL will assign IP's out- notice the first three sets "141.149.38.xxx" are identical. They could very likely be the same people, neighbors or sharing computers. Usually, its the same people. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2695 Registered: 12-2000 |
I just worked with a user to test the aol theory, but although they were dialed in with aol, their ip was different than those of the infamous Bill, Tony, and another user. Interesting. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2228 Registered: 2-2001 |
You talk about rip offs, My wife went to the Doctors office and then to the Hospital for a blood test for her thyroid condition. The Hospital bill for drawing a vial of blood and returning the results 3 hours later was $785.00. The Doctors bill was $85.00. My insurance has a $2500.00 deductable just so I can keep the monthly cost down. I had no idea of what the charges were when she went to get the work done, and my wife never told me how much it was. They called me from the Hospital today and wanted to know if I wanted to work out a payment plan for the bill. My wife was not there when the call came and I asked her about it when she came in. She advised me that she had already paid them for the charges. Can you believe it, a payment plan for a fuk'n blood test. I need to go up on my labor rate. | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
New member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 43 Registered: 9-2002 |
Well I'll tell ya..This has been quite a ride!! I'm 28yrs old have had some job or another since I was 11..When I first saw Magnum P.I. I told myself I would have one of those"red" cars one day just like "ROBIN1" Well that day came 2 years ago although the car is black. I'm not a rich guy by any means I only have this car because of being in the right place at the right time. I'm a mechanic..who does all his own maintance on the car and loves every minute I spend driving my car...And to me that is all that matters..I worked for it...I fought for it...I deserve it dammit!! | ||
| Eugene Angelo (Eangelo)
New member Username: Eangelo Post Number: 14 Registered: 8-2001 |
Why can't we just all get along? | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
New member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2002 |
Feel sorry and defensive all you want Magoo but I think that the Greaseball is right on target in more than one area relative to the Ferrari mystique that exists on this board. Don't feel bad as it seems to be the same on the other car boards as well. I guess it is good to know that Ferrari owners don't have all of the arrogance in the automotive world covered. Close, but not all. Will | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 2879 Registered: 2-2001 |
You may be stereotyped in owning a Ferrari, but no other exotic comes close in reliability and performance. Kind of sad to think of it that way, but Ferrari is the chevy of exotics nowadays and comes with the ease of getting parts, reliable mechanics, and a growing number of people to work on them. Go work on a Lamborghini, then go work on a Bentley, you'll see exactly what I'm talking about and wont want to wait to going back to working on 308s, 355s, TRs, etc. I get a kick out of some of the Ferrari powertrips that occasionally pop up on here by owners, but that's to be expected, for the most part, everyone here has worked hard to get their Ferrari and it has been a lifelong goal for them. What is infinitely more amusing though is when people like this low life start preaching. It reminds me of the aholes you occasionally come across that pull up in a chevy nova and start telling you what's wrong with your Ferrari. It still amazes me that people can be so dense as to not understand that their own rants embody exactly what they are complaining about. Hypocrisy at its best, well done and good luck with your pursuit of ignorance. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3481 Registered: 2-2001 |
Tony the "GREASE BALL." I have used that name ever since I have been on this site and no I don't mind being called that name. I can tell you though you certainly picked the correct name for yourself. You have some big problems and are very bitter in general. I feel sorry for a person as you who is so childish in his remarks. This is my last post to you because I don't want to insult my intelligence responding to you. | ||
| Jeff Green (Carguy)
New member Username: Carguy Post Number: 16 Registered: 10-2002 |
About this thread, I'm starting to think that the horse is dead, so let's stop beating it. We all have freedom of speech, but please tone it down a bit. No need for personal comments or slurs. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 569 Registered: 12-2001 |
Interesting thread, but the initial question was whether Chenetti was a rip off artist. He is historically treated as the guy, along with Hoffman in Ny and Van Neumann(sp) in Cal. responsible for bringing high performance imports to this country, and for influencing the direction of the company to develop road cars suitable to the american market. As to whether the distribution set up is a racket, or a violation of antitrust laws, i have a hard time seeing that. You can't conspire with yourself, and its hard to "monopolize" a nonfungible thing like a niche brand high performance sports car, when the market share is almost infinitesimally small. I suppose that if there were unfair or discriminatory business or pricing practices, such as in the cost of spare parts, favoring, for example, only authorized dealers, there might be something there. (i seem to remember a case like that against MBenz some 20 years ago, but i think it settled). As to whether Ferrari can charge more in the US than they do in Europe, there is a fair amount of leeway they would be given, as a matter of business practice, just to cover the overhead, the maintenance of a dealer network, shipping, warranty work, etc. to justify the fact that there is a premium to buying the car here. As to whether the grey market cars are the same or not, you all know they lost that battle last time around,...but i could see legitimate business reasons to say, hey, you want to import the car yourself, you don't get the extras that come with buying it thru a US dealer. Why is that unfair? | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2693 Registered: 12-2000 |
The IP's of Tony and Bill and another more experienced user on here all have ip's that match. I wonder if it's just AOL and they don't have a unique ip. Let me know if anyone knows anything about how ip's work with AOL. Also let me know if you're posting messages from an AOL dial up and I'll check your ip. There was one other user on here that had a aol email, but their ip was different. Maybe just because they're using a work dial up. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 384 Registered: 5-2002 |
So why should we care about what Jay Leno thinks about us? Is his opinion more important than the average person's opinion just because he is on network television? That's almost like saying somebody's opinion is more valuable because of the expensive car they drive. Sort of a contradiction of comparisons isn't it? | ||
| Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member Username: Pcelenta Post Number: 198 Registered: 7-2002 |
somebody boot this racist pig off...hello, Rob? these derogatory ethnic slurs within an online "handle" should not be tolerated. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 546 Registered: 1-2002 |
Yikes! Is this getting out of hand or what?? | ||
| "Tony the Greaseball" (Wopmobile)
New member Username: Wopmobile Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2002 |
Sorry there Good Ole Magoo (do you really want people to call you that by the way?), my facts are correct. Martin has continually bragged about real estate, making it big, in the business (talk about wannabe), etc. And a used car and this isolated ego-haven apparently ices the cake. What brought me out of my observation hole (hey, btw there Ole Magoo, what is wrong with reading what others write and think and not contributing as you imply?) was Martin's belittling of a fellow who just dropped $140K or so on a new Porsche 996 tt X50 instead of having class (like him of course)and buying a Ferrari. Who the hell is he to break anyone's ecstatic balloon over buying a great car? Nobody that is who. That is classic Ferrari ••••••• behaviour and what alienates the rest of the car guys against Ferrari owners. Next time you see Jay Leno at Pebble Beach ask him why he owns no Ferraris? His response - he would never want to be stereotyped as being like the majority people on this board. People who think they are better than others because they own a certain type of car. People who really have money don't need to brag about it - they are self-confident enough without hearing themsleves say it over and over and have others pat them on the back. And oh Frank? My racing moniker applies to horses not cars. I always get a kick out of watching most of the wannabe race drivers bounce around out there in the club races - I'll bet the dealers love those guys, eh? Oh, are you one of them? Sorry if you are. Get a slot car set instead and save a few bucks instead of pretending in that fancy suit and all. And as far as my financial position goes...stick it up your ass right there beside your head as I would like to believe that is the only reason an intelligent and successful man such as yourself would make such a presumptious and ludicrous comment. Both my financial and moral portfolio are far from broke and remain none of your business. Several on here and in the FCA are extremely wealthy and never, never, say a word about money to justify their existence in the group...a country club for the rich (sheesh)...they just like their toys...some like horses...some like women or planes...wondering if those that have no or little green, education or need home equity loans to buy a 308GT4 are preoccupied by it and have to constantly, you know, just fib a little...maybe an extra comma or so...kind of like penis envy and adding a couple inches. That is OK until the zipper slides, eh? Didn't mommy or daddy ever teach you not to covet your neighbor's belongings and live your own life? And I think Bill Johnston was right, some of you are pissed off that daddy didn't leave you a trust fund to piss away and IT SHOWS. Touche' Bill. Ah, should have been born a DuPont then everyone would recognize the name and treat me with respect rather than me having to earn it or lie to get it. LMFAO. Look in the mirror boys...if you open your eyes what you may see may not be too attractive. And please, try reaaaal hard not to make assumptions about those around you. You never know whose ass you will be kissing tomorrow an he may have a load of methane for you to suck on. Live and let live, Chow, WopMeister | ||
| Gene Agatep (Gagatep)
Junior Member Username: Gagatep Post Number: 62 Registered: 8-2002 |
side note, in reference to the very 1st post of this thread: here's my 2cents Luigi Chinetti wanted a monopoly of F's coming into the U.S. A monopoly can be had for a price - if he really wanted to do it. He was scared of competition from private owners buying F's in Europe and bringing it in the U.S. This process takes alot of effort and time for private owners. There are alot more customers out there who need the immediate gratification of buying their F's local than shopping and shipping from Europe. Competition is good for the economy - specially consumers. The more available a car is and its parts, the more prices get competitive. IMO if you have the time and patience to do grey market... more power to you. Go ahead bring in more F's to this country. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3168 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ops Ernie, my apologies�not intended. had Ernesto on my mind I guess. Good point taken. Why should one be discriminated against for where they live. If they really raise the prics 20-40% for parts I will change business and offer parts for WAY less. Mitch, I would look into a local shop and see if you both can start learing of the car. Have it on the lift and both look at the car. When it comes down to basics, it is a car and the engine works the same as any other engine. Any mechanic can theoretically work on this car. If you have the choice of finding one close by that knows the Ferrari then you should go with them but if not, have your local trusted mechanic look over the car. A lot of things come with experience. Trouble shooting. A Ferrari is not a mystery machine. It is a car, 4 wheels and engine etc. Get yourself a repair manual from e-bay and bring it to the mechanic. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 213 Registered: 4-2002 |
Sounds like some enterprising businessman could make a tidy income buying parts in europe and Fed-Exing them to consumers in this country..... On the other hand, this isn't a saturated market (for Ferraris!) where competition lowers prices. I live more than 2 hours from 3 different Ferrari dealers/service centers. This is hardly condusive to dropping buy and seeing what is going on. I can imagine that others are even less fortunate, and have to have their F-cars transported significant distances for any major kind of service (and/or problems). I would love to get a local exotic sales place to form an aliance with a local speed shop and form a Ferrari outlet (as it were) in my town so I could get local service at local prices. However, I understand that FNA does not allow competing dealerships within 100 miles of each other (certain situations excluded) to allow enough of a market for each dealership to exist, survive, and keep the customers happy. The free market does none of these three things. If the free market was to allow deep discounters to run 50% of the Ferrari dealers out of business, there would be a lot more disgruntled customers than with the current situation. | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 409 Registered: 11-2001 |
I would first like to adress the confusion between me and Ernesto (T88power). We are not the same guy using different chat names. But it would be nice to be able to have his 360 hehehee. Anyway just wanted to get that out of the way cause I have seen people confuse us a few times. Ok so now ........... Back to Luigi. I have no problem with FNA making a profit, but it isn't about that. What it is about is that FNA wants to monopolize the sale of every Ferrari sold in the U.S. and every thing relating to the sale of Ferrari parts. Why? Because Luigi was in charge of FNA until 1997 when he died! That is only five years ago. So he infuenced every thing that FNA did and still does. This has nothing to do with not being able to afford a Ferrari or the up keep of one. What this has to do with is fairness. If a guy in Canada, England, Germany, Holland, France, Spain, Switzerland etc. can get Ferrari parts for around the same price, Give or take $100, I want those SAME parts in the same ballpark prices range. NOT DOUBLE of what every one else in the World pays, just be cause they come to the United States of America! That is the point! | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 229 Registered: 6-2002 |
Martin - good questions. In the grand scheme of things, however, I suspect we will not achieve a consensus. The challenge arises in that we all know what the answer is. We simply cannot agree on it. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3165 Registered: 5-2001 |
James your base idea is correct. FNA has to protect their dealer network. It is questionable though if that should be done by lying and bullying. Although this has become business practice in the US lately I still think it is the wrong approach and will hurt in the long run. As for fair trade: If Supermarket X sells Kellogs for $3.00 a pack and Supermarket Y can sell them for $2.50 next to X, should X be allowed to call the FDA and claim that Y's Kellogs is not fit for consumption in the US? or If I can bring Kellogs from Europe by the Container and sell them for $ 2.50, should I be banned from doing so and should the consumer be banned from buying my product over the X market product? | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 228 Registered: 6-2002 |
It would be interesting to hear from the lawyers who follow F-Chat vis-a-vis their thoughts on whether FNA represents a monopoly, or practices monopolistic policies. Or is this simply an exclusive franchise relationship, that is, FNA - Ferrari SPa? | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3164 Registered: 5-2001 |
BArney, your point is well taken, although on the warranty issue it is lacking the understanding of how the warranty system works. See some of the previous posts that have explained the money back system with FNA and Ferrari spa. If the car was not imported through the FNA system they did not get credit for the car. As FNA is a business entity they should not suffer a financial loss for something they have not received compensation for. If I would run Fspa, I would make sure that warranty issues are also covered through FNA and re-imburse them accordingly, but then that is me. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 227 Registered: 6-2002 |
Barney - no disrespect assumed. | ||
| Barney Guzzo (Trinacria)
New member Username: Trinacria Post Number: 20 Registered: 8-2002 |
James - I respectfully disagree with the lemonade comparison. Competition is the root of American business. Ever hear of monopoly? The guy who opens up down the block has every right to do so, and if you don't like it, give people a reason to buy your product instead of his (legally if possible). Price fixing as well as many other anti-competitive practices are illegal. Charging American's extra just because you can borders on discrimination based on my nationality. Not much different charging extra because someone is female, black, Jewish, Sicilian, or whatever. If Ferrari SPa makes the car then Ferrari SPa warranty''s the car - there should be no issue about getting it repaired under warranty no matter where it was purchased. Bill J is a huge a-hole. The "Father" remark was rude and Bill J deserves a good beating for that. For all the other stuff - he is certainly entitled to his opinion. VS, Kelly, & James - GREAT POSTS! | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 226 Registered: 6-2002 |
Martin - your points are well taken. However, the exclusivity issue that I refer to trickles down to local dealerships as well. Dealers have two profit centers, sales and service. If the dealer maintains both new-car and parts inventory (read capital expense) and a consumer in the shadow of the dealership purchases parts or cars overseas, then FNA has undermined their success. In a loose sense, this is similar to Burger King allowing two restaurants in close proximity - one owner spends money assuming that there will not be another close by to cannibalize their sales. Please understand, I have the same visceral response to $1.25 washers, but understand from where this arises. First, not many washers are made, and tooling, production, documentation, shipping, storing, etc., all cost money that is not amortized over a large number of units. Second, and perhaps MOST important, the market will bear it! As you can likely tell, I believe in free enterprise, understand it, and simply do not get emotional about it. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 554 Registered: 10-2001 |
Bill cracked me up. I wonder what he thinks of the Lamborghini crowd. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3474 Registered: 2-2001 |
Now I feel that I should respond here. Tony you are wrong about Martin. I have been on this site for a while and I can tell you that he has never boasted of being "rich." Martin has mentioned from time to time that he has done it all by himself and basicly is where he is today because of hard work. Had you been reading his posts over the past few years you would come to that conclusion. Which brings up another question. Watching Martins posts for the "last few years" as you say and you have 5 posts. Did you just decide to come on the site and say what you said about Martin. If you want to be accepted here get your facts straight or say nothing at all as you did for the "last few years." Sincerely, | ||
| Jim Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 54 Registered: 10-2002 |
One of the first times Mario Andretti drove a Ferrari in a race was for Mr. Chinetti at Bridgehampton. The car DNF'ed. The fee agreed to in advance was $1,000. Mr. Chinetti asked Mario how many children he had. "Two" Mario replied. Mr. Chinetti wrote him a check for $2,000. As Mr. Ferrari said without Mr Chinetti Ferrari would not be what it is today... | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3160 Registered: 5-2001 |
Good to meet you too Greaseball! | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 784 Registered: 6-2001 |
Tony: I don't think that Martin is bragging about his success, but even if he were so what? From your email, it looks like you are a racer, or wannabe racer. If you are actively racing, I suspect that you are jealous, because your racing keeps you broke. IMHO Art | ||
| "Tony the Greaseball" (Wopmobile)
New member Username: Wopmobile Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2002 |
He with the lowest class of all is he who brags of being rich. Martin, you have done that repeatedly since I have been reading this board over the last few years (you just did it again) thus you are in the same class as those you criticize. If you think anyone is impressed by your words, except maybe yourself, you are sorely mistaken. We are here to share car comments not listen to how "rich you are. Your trailer park comments lower you to the same level as the Bill Johston comment. I sense he made that comment in jest and you swallowed hook, line and sinker. If he didn't, then the comment does not even deserve a response. Money does not make the man. Many supposedly "financially rich" people are the poorest people of all and I see that as I deal with them constantly. Grow up, get some manners and please learn how to spell and write. Maybe your mother and father will be impressed by that as they sound like hard working self-made decent people who are far richer that you will ever be. I am surprised I am even responding to your words but you come across so consistently obnoxious that I found I had no choice. WopMeister | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3155 Registered: 5-2001 |
You are stepping into different issues here all in one sweap. Although I believe it is bad practice FNA has the right to refuse warranty work on every non-US car that did not go through their system. Lets look at this system closer: FNA imports all US cars. They make a fixed profit on every car. FNA does not profit from dealer practice of selling above MSRP. In fact FNA officially condems this practice. FNA has a stock to keep for all cars sold. Yes, this costs money and that is why all parts have huge profits on the items. Just in case you were wondering why a washer costs $1.25. The parts and stock is financed entirely out of the parts sales. The more cars are in the country, the more parts you sell, the more money you make Ecomnomy 101 James! What this whole argument was about was that FNA's practice of lying in front of DOT and EPA claiming the Euro Version is not safe to be driven in the US is what ticks us of. The fact that we are charged way more than any other distributor that has to import and stock the same amount of parts. Ferrari Deutschland has the same warehouse as FNA, how do I know, they were 10 minutes from my dealership in Frankfurt. Why are parts 1/2 the price in Europe than here in the US? The answer lies in Mr. Chinetti's comment that Ernesto has quoted: "THEY PAY!" Can they do it? Of course they can. Free enterprise. Just don't get mad when I import the same parts for less and offer them to FNA customers for a fraction of the FNA price. FREE ENTERPRISE! Mr. Martin's quote as a response to Mr. Chinetti: "FU*K THEM!" | ||
| ross koller (Ross)
Member Username: Ross Post Number: 534 Registered: 3-2002 |
i tend to agree w/ james. i have been subjected to numerous instances of 'dealer prejudice' and not just at ferrari, but at porsche and mercedes as well. they have costs to cover their market and thats what they are doing. so, to use the old cliche, don't get mad, get even. we are all saying we have been smart enough to earn the money to pay for the car in the first place, so put those smarts to work.... i am usually able to figure out the cheapest source for the car in question, and then i just make sure i know the cheapest/most efficient way of getting it maintained. for you guys in the states looking at the newer cars (older ones (20+ yrs) will unlikely have the same scorn heaped on them from the ferrari dealers), i would look at the euro cars only if you have somebody like martin in your area. but if you do then its a great proposition - buy for 70pct of home retail, get repairs done right and probably for 70pct of what fna dealers charge. like i have said in previous threads, if you do this sort of thing enough, maybe some of the fna dealers will wake up. if they don't then you still have the last laugh coz you are driving it around anyway. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 224 Registered: 6-2002 |
While I understand frustration experienced by some, it likely stems from either a lack of understanding or an emotional (irrational) position. Ferrari (Italy) offers FNA exclusivity in return for a guarantee of a number of units sold. This is how exclusive contracts work. To meet these numbers, FNA produces sales and marketing material, dealer relationships, stocks parts, develops and maintains infrastructure, works with governmental agencies to assure compliance, etc. These are expensive processes. That they are less than enthusiastic over overseas direct sales is an understatement. The factory supports national exclusivity to protect these distributors (FNA) from rogue importers that might jeopardize their stability. FNA discourages direct overseas sales by invalidating warranty coverage. These are reasonable business practices, and are standard operating procedure. It is unfair to ask FNA to maintain a U.S. infrastructure, parts supply, dealership network, etc., and then bypass their revenue source by buying overseas. Imagine you are offered the exclusive contract for Lemonade in your city. You purchase property, establish and maintain lemon groves to supply your lemonade stand. You advertise that you will be on Oak Street every day. Then some young whippersnapper sets up a stand on Oak Street 100 yards ahead of you and sells lemonade, purchasing their raw materials from someone else. You have devoted resources to marketing, advertising, and growing lemonade. You did so with the understanding that you were to be the only supplier of lemonade. Something is wrong in Peoria. In an ideal world we could find the low cost supplier. However, it is a great deal more complicated than that. I have found that anger over business issues results from a failure of each party to "put themselves in the shoes of their adversary". Ask yourself, what would I do it I were FNA?" Not that you must agree with their position, but if you understand it, then you can strategize accordingly. You may choose to walk away, but that is a rational position based on understanding, not an irrational one based on emotion. | ||
| Jeff Green (Carguy)
New member Username: Carguy Post Number: 15 Registered: 10-2002 |
I see many valid points in this thread made by many...even "BILL". I agree with Bill about people outside this group not being very sympathetic us, because they don't know the facts. They see our cars as luxuries, where as we see them as a passionate hobby. And we are lucky to have this forum to speek out. But I would suggest he make his points more tactfully. But hey it's a free country. I do believe there is some "system" at work causing higher prices for Americans, for new f-cars cars and service work. There is an "American mark-up" of a sort. And when someone goes around this and imports a car...the big Ferrari beauracracy clamps down hard. This is to send a messege to all not to import cars. Granted that one of the claims when servicing imported cars is the "numerous" differences that complicate things. I do believe it can get in the way at times, but dealers make too big a deal of it. They put all the emphasis on that rather than explain the whole truth. "RED" made a good point about money allocated for each car-and-destination for warranty work. But it seems to me in this global economy that the money would be in a central fund at Ferrari, and no matter where the service work is done, warranty money should be available. A stumbling block would be if service work in Germany costs 50% of U.S. work, and a bunch of cars are imported from Germany to the U.S. this may upset the original total allocation of service funds. And I'm sure that dealing with the "red tape" associated with imported cars deters dealers from working on them, things like servicing an "illegal" car or one that will not pass smog certification. I'm sure I am like a lot of you, just a 9 to 5 type, a ham-and-egger guy on a budget, and getting a Ferrari strictly out of emotion. It is too bad that our enthusiasm and passion is not rewarded in some way by the higher powers. It could be an image thing as some have suggested. If I pull into a hot rod carshow in my TR and get out wearing a tee shirt and jeans, will I devalue Ferrari cars everywhere? Will enough of my type cause the mystic of Ferrari to be tarnished? Will I send a messege to all the dreamers out there that you can get a Ferrari if you work at it? (this last point is okay with me) I don't imaging there will be a clear, black and white answer to this thread. It's a lot of things. But whatever happens, I'm going to proudly drive my car, and show it to who ever is interested. And if I have to take-it-on-the-chin from FNA, so be it. (to a point that is) | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 859 Registered: 2-2001 |
OK, try buying a Nissan or Toyota in Japan, importing it to the USA, then getting warranty work done at a dealer here. You wont get it. It would probably be the same thing with a Porsche or virtually any brand of car. Ernesto | ||
| Nick Berry (Nickb)
New member Username: Nickb Post Number: 37 Registered: 8-2002 |
Red I am not sure your entirely correct. I believe dealerships bill for warranty work to either FNA or Ferrari Italy. There is no reason the vin # could not be confirmed and the appropriate chargeback made. Is your position that if a Euro car has a manufacturing mechanical defect Ferrari should not honor repairing because the car happens to be in the US? What difference does it make whether the repair is made by a European or US dealer? If the product is defective the manufacturer should stand behind it. Ferrari sells their cars as world cars. If they do not wish to back their products being used in the US then they should not be allowed to sell or import them here.  | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 219 Registered: 6-2002 |
Thank you, Red. Jim S. | ||
| Red (Redhead)
Junior Member Username: Redhead Post Number: 69 Registered: 12-2001 |
Back to the orignal topic.... Ernie--is qutoed as saying.... "So when a U.S. dealer will not honor the factory warranty of a European car," Simple reasoning that no one on this board seems to understand. F-SpA allocates cars to each of their importers each year. With each car, goes a certain amount of money. This money is designed to give the importer money for the warrantay issues that are going to arise. So, you buy a car from Germany, the German importer(FERRARI DEUTSCHLAND GMBH) has that money.You import the car to the US, and FNA's computer does not even regonize that chassis #, since it was never allocated to them and the $ is not there for that car. IT IS NOT FNA'S FAULT. You brought in a car that you where willing to buy out of country.When you need your car repaired under wty. send it back, or have it repaired here. The money you saved importing it to the US, is the money that you may need to spend on future repairs. Is this really FNA's fault? If so, I am extremley confused. Ferraris are made in limited #'s. Econ 101 says with a little supply and High demand, the price will escalate.So, F SpA decides to charge more to this market, well wouldn't you? We are all business people, I asume, and we all now that the bottom line is to get the most profit out of every widget that we sell, well, Ferrari is doing what we do day in and day out. And some will chose to continue to support them, and some will chose not to, but know why they do what they do before throwing blind accusations out. | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
Member Username: Sloan83qv Post Number: 400 Registered: 3-2001 |
Martin, I thought father was a "tall employee" am I mistaken? Paul | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3151 Registered: 5-2001 |
he he he, I like that. Although I believe in freedom of speach. Nice going Rob | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 545 Registered: 1-2002 |
Terry, I'mnot sure if this is true--that FNA has some power over FCA activities. I am president of a new chapter here in the Texas Hill Country (much like our host, Rob Lay, is in the DFW area) and I have never heard from FNA...and we have never done a black tie event, and are not in any big hurry to do one! FCA is a private organization with no connections to FNA except the authorization to use the Ferrari name, to the best of my knowledge. So I'm not sure where you got this info, but I believe it is a myth. Bill, you are a pathetic arse with a small-pen!s complex. And you set a new record--your profile was deleted after just one post! Come back when you can't stay longer. AMF. Rob, great response!! | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
Member Username: Tenney Post Number: 267 Registered: 2-2001 |
Bill's level of success (financial and otherwise) in the real world is anyone's guess. But would suspect that, based on responses, his intent was met with his post in this thread. A success, then? | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 782 Registered: 6-2001 |
Bill: Just saw your post. I can see your anger about why we complain about the high prices. Have ou ever thought about how we got the money? Probably not, you seem to think that when people do acquire a little wealth we get stupid. Guess what, we don't, we leave that to people like yourself, who apparently haven't figured out how to become successful, and more importantly how to keep what you've earned. I hope you enjoy life, but from reading your post, it seems that your anger and jealousy will keep you from that goal. Art | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3145 Registered: 5-2001 |
Ernesto, to the original topic. You are right. This is still a left over from the old days. All I can tell you is buy the parts though Europe and/or from independent sources like Nicks. He buys parts in Canada. I will look into this when I am in Italy next time and see if I can get some contacts going where to order parts cheap. James, your equation is correct but the set-up is different. Your widget (whatever that is) is being produced by Widget Italy and sold throughout the world. They run the marketing effort of the F-1 Widget team. I come along and start talking the big widget cheeze at the factory into giving me the exclusive for the US and import them. All over the world they are sold for price X and I import them and because the Americans love them, I tell them your price is X+50%, because you can pay! In other words you are getting screwed because you live in this country rather than Canada. Look at canadian 360 prices for example. Same car, less money. In economics 101 you can obviously do this. In business ethics I think you have crossed a line. Just my 2c. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3144 Registered: 5-2001 |
Nice goin' Bill! I can not remember the last time we had an a*shole like you on this board. My father worked for an airline as a small employee till this very month (retires 11/30/02), my mom was a secretary till she got downsized. My parents have nothing, neither did I ever get anything. A small inheritance from my aunt ($25,000) was put as a downpayment for my first house. I came to the US in 1994 with $5,000 in my pocket. It is idiots like you that will never ever make it in this world. You have neither a goal not can you think big. Thank God that you can not afford one, neiher will ever be able to keep one. I have friendlier garbage man that you at my house. The love to see the car and ask questions and with hard work and enough passion they too will be able to afford one one day. You? never. Make sure to lock up your trailer when you leave, somebody might be stealing your propane bottle and then its cold showers for you for a week. Thanks Bill, you are the perfect example why I make no excuses for being rich and others are not! Martin | ||
| VS (Vs1)
New member Username: Vs1 Post Number: 20 Registered: 10-2002 |
Bill, Pardon my confusion but, who needs a lesson on Values and Character [and respect for others]? | ||
| Kelly (Tifosi1)
Member Username: Tifosi1 Post Number: 483 Registered: 2-2002 |
Bill, please remember, there are people on this board who allot bigger than you are. Rob, I liked the {regards} at the end of your e-mail. Bill, I work for a living and you just insulted all us guys who really cannot afford our cars and have to work on them like they are our kids and we are conducting the surgery. No regards for Bill Kelly | ||
| James (Jim_red308)
New member Username: Jim_red308 Post Number: 42 Registered: 3-2001 |
The fact he (Bill) doesn't display a profile says it all...and believe me, I don't come from money either! But I do have the passion - thank god. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2683 Registered: 12-2000 |
LOL, here's my response to Bill, let's do a good ole fashion FerrariChat.com welcome, here's my email... We don�t need your type on FerrariChat.com. This board has been around two years and has over 1,850 users. You have the least class of any. Most of us are not rich, I grew up the son of a public school principal and a minister, I�ve worked my ass off to own a 328, because it�s been one of my life long passions. Many on the board are in the same boat. With this many users you will see some with diverse backgrounds, there are a few dozen without class (like yourself), but generalizing the entire board shows your own lack of intelligence and misplaced jealousy. Regards, Rob Lay FerrariChat.com | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Member Username: Caribe Post Number: 448 Registered: 2-2001 |
James, you are correct - "While morality might suggest you are correct, economics does not. They can treat you any way they wish." Perhaps my concerns are moral in nature rather than economics based. I, personally, am one of those guilty ones that bought a Ferrari even though I knew not everything was right about Ferrari. Nevertheless, I don't regret it one bit. I bought the car for the experience, the thrill of driving and owning one of the greatest. Not for exclusivity, or any of that fiction. Buying stuff to achieve exclusivity implicates the need to be accepted by a selected few whose values seem to be all twisted. Owning an object that not many can afford does not grant you any special status, or privileges, in my opinion. If one feels it does, then one sets its own personal value too low to be of any worth to others, and more importantly oneself. Anyway, there are ways to get around FNA and the overpriced dealers. Good enough and reputable repair shops, parts stores, etc. exist out there to make the Ferrari experience a worth living one. You just need to know where to look and how much to pay for it. Buying a new Ferrari should be left to those for which money is no object, and don't mind taking the depreciation hit. A 1990 TR MSRP was in the order of $167,000.00. Personally, I don't think it was worthed. Now, purchasing the same object in near new condition and very low mileage, from a private owner (that has really enjoyed and loved the car, and have the records to back it up) for 40% of the original MSRP is quite acceptable to me. So you don't have the new car smell, and it isn't perfectly new anymore, so what? You just saved yourself nearly $100,000.00 and the car is for all practical purposes New! Personally, this is how I believe you really beat the market, FNA, and the highly overpriced dealers. | ||
| Scotty (Pzerowaster)
New member Username: Pzerowaster Post Number: 31 Registered: 10-2002 |
People pay because they can. Why would someone pay 100 g's above retail for an already outrageously expensive car? Because they can. And I'm sure the ones that can are glad for it. Do they think they are overpaying? Or getting humped? Do they care that they are cheaper for folks across the pond? I highly doubt it. God bless America. | ||
| Bill Johnston (Rube_goldburg)
New member Username: Rube_goldburg Post Number: 1 Registered: 11-2002 |
My Oh My.....The Man That Really Ripped You Off... WAS YOUR FATHER!!!!!...for 1) Not leaving you Real Money! 2) Depriving you of lessons in life about Values and Character! You pathetic souls are lucky to have this closed forum to express your anger about being rich, but not rich enough to go first class. My sympathy goes out to you sad pathetic whiners that you have to pay for what others would consider optional luxuries in life. I'll leave you with a bit of advice, seek sympathy here among your pathetic soul mates, you will find it hard to find any sympathy for your state of Ferrari Malaise in the real world. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 304 Registered: 4-2002 |
I think FNA flat out sucks. Period. I went to a local unofficial FCA meeting last week for lunch. The president of the local chapter talked some about how the club has been somewhat inactive and how many members had drifted away. Apparently one big reason for this is that any even the club is going to do must be ok'd by FNA in some way or they will crack some whip at the club. I dont really understand how this works or why.... but it floored me. Apparently FNA wants only black tie, exclusive functions catering to the upper crust. They do not want guys in 308's flying the Ferrari flag and having a backyard BBQ with beer in the can. Nuts. PCA gets amazing support from the Factory and dealerships for whatever it wants to do. New car drivers.... old car drivers... EVERYONE who is a Porsche fan is treated like a king by Porsche when it come to the club and supporting events. Anyhow, I would never buy a new Ferrari and this kind of nonsense is only 1 reason. I like the old cars much better and find the newer ones less inspiring and much overpriced for what you get. Give me a Daytona over a 550 any day. With the change, Ill buy a 996TT to drive every day! Terry | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
New member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 41 Registered: 9-2002 |
If you guys are that mad at FNA then why don't you sell your Ferrari's and tell your friends to sell their Ferrari's and don't ever buy another until Ferrari straightens up. The only way they will change is if you hit them were it counts...In the pocket book. You'd be surprized how fast Ferrari will become more customer friendly when they realize the largest Ferrari market in the has stopped buying. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 215 Registered: 6-2002 |
Arnaldo - I refer to your comment, "...No economics lesson gives anybody the right to operate in such a manner." While morality might suggest you are correct, economics does not. They can treat you any way they wish. It is this esteemed collage of enthusiasts that support bad behavior. If we chose to boycott by not purchasing parts or cars, or better yet, funneling our purchases to ONE dealer that offers superb service, then other dealers would soon learn or fail. That we tolerate this behavior is our problem. Commiseration, rather than deliberation, is our pitfall. We should vote with our feet. Ah, but that means many would not have their 360, or 575, etc. Note the market in vintage pieces versus new cars. The service offered by Rutland, or Tanner, or PartsSource, etc., seems to be heads above the dealers (at least as a premise for this thread - not necessarily my experience - Ferrari of Orange County has done fine by me). When there is true competition for your dollar, the service follows. Just my thoughts. No intention to upset anyone. Jim S. | ||
| Jim Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 51 Registered: 10-2002 |
Before you get too hard on Mr Chinetti think about this: He brought Ferrari it's first victory at LeMans driving for 23.5 of the 24 hours stopping only to shave. I doubt there's anyone on this forum that's done that or frankly ever will. | ||
| Noelrp (Noelrp)
Junior Member Username: Noelrp Post Number: 107 Registered: 8-2001 |
Amen! | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
New member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 29 Registered: 11-2002 |
Guys, Exclusivity is the key. Ferrari is stricly in the "business" of catering to the Rich & Famous. Specificaly orchestrated to emulate a Very Expensive, Exclusive Country Club. You have to pay a very high Membership Fee and Very High Dues to be & stay a Member in Good Standing of The Coolest of the Cool Movers Shakers Image is Everything Club. If it wasn't that way, the Rich & Famous wouldn't want to be a member in the first place. Ferrari has always been about exclusion, not inclusion. And the rules have always been simple, if you want to play with the Big Boys and have Big Boy Toys, you have to PAY with the Big Boys. Understand it, Accept it, Get Over it or? | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Member Username: Caribe Post Number: 444 Registered: 2-2001 |
James, I don't believe anybody here fails to understand the simple dynamics of economics. It is the poor treatment and arrogance over which some dealers and FNA go about their daily business that I believe becomes incomprehensible. If you have a hot, limited production, attractive product, yes you can ask more than what some of us consider reasonable, but why target specifically the US market for this practice in the extreme. In addition, what's up with the attitude and poor treatment of its customers. No economics lesson gives anybody the right to operate in such a manner. Even if you hold the upperhand dictating market standards for your product, you should show some appreciation for your customers instead of contempt. | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 408 Registered: 11-2001 |
I blame Ferrari North America not Ferrari Spa (the real Ferrari). James if that were the case they why..................is it that you can get all the stuff cheaper in Europe? Because the U.S. has the money and FNA wants to squeeze it out of us anyway they can. It has nothing to do with econimics 101, but monopoly 101 instead. I have to agree with Edward that you are just buying a name. Just because somthing is expensive doesn't mean it is good. If they are going to charge the prices that they ask the part had better be bullit proof, but they aren't. Why, because Ol' Luigi was a smart cookie. Even though I dissagree with the way he treated American buyers, I have to admit that he was clever. Get the rich and famous to buy your cars, then all the groupies will follow, over charge them, make the parts crapy so that they break and then over charge them again. Freekin-A brilliant. How ever if at any point in time someone high up in the U.S. government gets fed up with the monopolizing tactics that Ferrari North America continues to pull off it will be put to a stop. Take for example what was done when the Japanese wouldn't alow U.S. goods into their country. What did we do, we said that if they didn't change their policy towards us that we would impose a HUGE import tax, thus making the things that they ship here wayyyy to expensive for what they are really worth. But until our government officials decide that enough is enough FNA with continue to get away with the crap they do. I'm not against people making money in a free economy, but I am against dishonest treatment, and charging Americans more money just because they are American is WRONG! | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
New member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 49 Registered: 3-2002 |
Have to agree with you, Jim S. Chinetti took on a lot of responsiblity and risk when he chose to market the fairly unknown Italian cars way back when. I will not begrudge him trying to make a profit in a low volume, high overhead market. I am still thankful today that I can go to a number of parts suppliers and they will have replacement parts on their shelf for my limited production car that was built 35 years ago. The items that I purchase are slow moving inventory that somebody has had to pay to have produced and also to stock. Also, the last time I checked, nobody was forcing me to to either own my car or purchase restoration parts for it. | ||
| James Selevan (Jselevan)
Junior Member Username: Jselevan Post Number: 214 Registered: 6-2002 |
Gentlemen, perhaps a review of Economics 101 is in order. You own a business that produces widgets. These widgets are "inelastic" to a small sub-population - that is, they must have it. The widget is not a utility, nor health care, thus not regulated. The desire for this widget is created by creative (and very expensive) marketing - for example, a Formula 1 widget team. Thus, you spend a great deal of money both designing and manufacturing, and marketing this widget. Now, here is the rub. The market for this widget is very small, which is good, as our capacity to produce these widgets is limited. Now, how many should we produce. If the world market for our widget is 1000 units per year, should we produce 1200, or 800? By constraining production, we can spend more time on each unit, and demand will always exceed supply - thereby driving price up. Furthermore, demand seems to be unrelated to customer service - they will buy the widget if we treat them nicely, or if we treat them poorly. It cost more to treat them nicely - duh. Finally - because there are so few made, we must charge a lot for them, and for any spare parts that the widget requires. Take home lesson - this is a free market. You are free to purchase a Mercedes or Z8 BMW, or sandpaper your face and purchase a Ferrari. It's your choice. Don't blame Ferrari - they are doing nothing other than what is predictable in a capitalistic environment - and I, for one, am glad that they do. Jim S. | ||
| Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member Username: Joechristmas Post Number: 528 Registered: 3-2001 |
Magoo LOL. That is funny. For the flip side look at some of the things that Ford and Chevy have done to Americans too. In almost any business you will find someone screwing someone else to get on top. I don't agree with it but we have it in companies here too. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2221 Registered: 2-2001 |
Some people have not figured it out yet or won't admit it. You don't get what you pay for. You are buying the name. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Member Username: Caribe Post Number: 443 Registered: 2-2001 |
Ain't that the truth! We love the marque so much that we put up with all the negative stuff from FNA, and their associated dealers. It is funny how many people assume that the more you pay for something the better it is. Well, it seems that when dealing with Ferrari, at least in America, the opposite is true for the most part. The funny thing is that some people even take offense when you question their reasoning behind over paying for cars and services from authorized Ferrari dealers. Common sense seems to stay at the door when walking into one of these dealers. Funny thing the human animal! | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3466 Registered: 2-2001 |
Ernie, What you say is true. Ferrari has given many American buyers the finger in sales as well as service. If you look at the posts in this site archives you will see a like it or lump it attitude of Ferrari to the American buyer. Yet we Americans still buy them and settle for less. There is something wrong with this picture. We have fallen in love with Ferrari and the brass of Ferrari knows this. They know they can do what they like and not cut the American buyer any slack. It seems like we Americans pursue a "Kick in the Ass" when it comes to buying a Ferrari. | ||
| Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Member Username: Ernie Post Number: 407 Registered: 11-2001 |
Well I have wondered who was at the root of the aweful treatment to American buyers and now I know. While reading Forza magazine I came arcoss an article about Luigi Chinetti. He is the guy to thank for bringing Ferrari to the United States, and the guy to thank for getting RIPPED OFF! The artical talked about Chinetti's invlovement with Ferrari in the early years and how he brought the mark to the U.S. As I was reading I cam across some bits of enlightening information. California, then as now, had the largest ownership of Ferraris. The owners were wealthy and would race their cars, kind of like today. It talked about Chinetti arranging for his customers to make thier cars available to the best drivers. But here is were the light was shed. Chinetti said,"I don't care how good a driver is-if he is rich, he PAYS!" It gets better. Later in the article it said that "Chinetti aranged with Ferrari to get a percentage of the purchase of any Ferrari sold to an American, even if the customer came directly to the factory", continuing farther down "the American who bought a used Ferrari from a European dealer and the brought it home. In more than one case Chinetti refused to sell him parts." So there you have it. We get ripped off because of the arangements that were set by Luigi Chinetti, and followed by Ferrari of North American to this day! So when a U.S. dealer will not honor the factory warranty of a European car, when you buy parts that are over priced, when you get service at the dealer and are charged insane mechanic fees, when you can find the parts cheaper in Europe but can't get them, why European Ferraris are cost less than U.S. Ferraris, if you are American, as Luigi said, "he PAYS!". |