| Author | Message | ||
| Andrew Macpherson (Amacfly)
New member Username: Amacfly Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2002 |
Dr Ibrahim, I am currently looking at a Daytona like your blue one, it is my color of choice, please can you email me the story and full details on the blue Daytona. Thank you, Andrew [email protected] | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 315 Registered: 4-2002 |
Coachi, Im located north of Atlanta, not too terribly far from you. Im wont really be ready to go after a Daytona until spring at the earliest, but I would like to talk to you about your cars. Perhaps even come take a look if its not too much trouble... Drop me an email: [email protected] | ||
| Dr. I. M. Ibrahim (Coachi)
Junior Member Username: Coachi Post Number: 118 Registered: 5-2002 |
I own two daytonas, and I am considering selling one of them. One is red with black interior with a total cosmetic restoration, runs well, all original and with wire or rudge wheels....even the a/c blows cold air...and the other is light blue (azzure) with black interior...if interested, check out my photos at www.tigersports.com/ferrari.htm | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 313 Registered: 4-2002 |
JRV.. this may be a long shot, but when I was in high school our shop had a small furnace and we made stuff via sandcasting. It really wasnt that hard as long as it was reasonably simple stuff. Velocity stacks would fall into the catagory of simple enough. They would need cleaning up and polishing when done, but still not that big a deal. While us students made very simple stuff like aluminum lamps, the teacher was restoring a Saab Sonnet and I know he made some parts that way. See if you local high school has a setup and wants to make some cool Ferrari parts! | ||
| Dr. Mike Adams (Drmike)
New member Username: Drmike Post Number: 12 Registered: 5-2002 |
Casting copies should be no problem. I'm pretty sure Mike Kumor at seaport mold http://www.seaportmold.com can copy the manifolds. I remember asking him about that a while ago when I bough some of his bronze knock-off sockets. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 107 Registered: 11-2002 |
OK Dr. M, Took the manifolds to the machine shop. There are two different ones, the rear man. has the boss for the brake booster port. While discussing what I wanted it started my memory bank going, wow they were difficult, had to make two sets originaly, 1 stock 330/365 set and 1 Daytona set, to get the upper and lower spacings correct, then cut the first two in half and graft the upper daytona to the lower 330/365 then cast a third new and modified set. Anyway my guy is having a look, he might know someone that can sand cast new ones easier than machineing a set. He'll get back to me in a few days with the scoop. Regards | ||
| Dr. Mike Adams (Drmike)
New member Username: Drmike Post Number: 11 Registered: 5-2002 |
Thanks JRV... I actually have a new set of velocity stack tops and a new set of 40DCN14's which I am going to convert to pseudo 40DCN20's by adding the air bleed screws. So, I only need the manifolds. I thought about doing up a billet set in my shop. But, as you noted, they would not look original. Everything else, I can fabricate. ( fuel log, throttle/choke linkages, etc ). Let me know  | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 100 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hey Dr. M, Well actually I do have 1 set left. I have a manifold set, 6 carbs with velocity stacks, sitting on the shelf in my office, quite a eye catcher for some of the older in the know car nuts like us. I know the next question..lol...I'll have to think about it..;-). How about this, many years ago I saw pix where someone had machined a set from billet, I didn't like them because they didn't look original, like the cast set does, let me take this set to my machine shop and see what it will take to machine up another set or two then you can have choice. Speaking of 330's and DCZ's...they get unbelievably warped, I found 3 brand new ones last year and put them on a customers 330. Wow what a difference!!! Not only where the bases warped but also the tops. I sti;; have the old set, however I haven't had the time to develop if possible a complete repair to machine them back to true. Other than getting old and warped the DCZ's all in all were great, trouble free, simple carbs to maintain and tune. But can't match the performance of 6 carbs...;-). Although the wave of the future for these cars where originality is not the most important factor just might be Throttle Body Fuel Injection. Like most things though, it takes more than one end user to develop something and keep the price within reason. | ||
| Dr. Mike Adams (Drmike)
New member Username: Drmike Post Number: 10 Registered: 5-2002 |
So, JRV.... Got any of those 330/365 6xDCN manifolds left ? I have a 330GT and 6 spare carbs. And I HATE the DCZs ! | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 99 Registered: 11-2002 |
Terry, you're a funny guy !!! But you read between the lines well...;-).. Power Steering & Modern (yet undectable) A/C extra of course. Actually the 308 guys will sh!t, they spend more than that making sure that they don't go to a real Ferrari mechanic lol. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 576 Registered: 12-2001 |
Thank you both. Don't own a Daytona yet Jrv, but have located a couple cars of interest. I've been spoiled by owning either new Ferraris or, in the case of the oldest one, a BBi, one that was a virtual queen, with a known history from a single, fanatical owner, so i am a little wary. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 310 Registered: 4-2002 |
So JRV.... in other words to bring an ok Daytona current as you say should run somewhere around $20,000? ;) | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 97 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hi WM, No, I didn't write the book, wish I had, and wish I had the time to work on cars AND write books (of course if I began writing books where would I find the time to chase women?). A client saw the R&T article by 'David Goldsmith' and wanted a duplicate, but an S, instead of a B. Quite a project, but it screamed, needle roller rockers ala 250 GTO, elephants feet, the last NEW 365 Cams in the world, Thanks Bill Rudd, hi comp pistons, the 6carbs, with A/C of course, we're in Texas...;-). Daytona Service...you didn't say how many miles on your beast? 1) Brakes, New or Machine (blanchard grind) all rotors, better pads, all rubber flex hoses *a must*, rebuild calipers and M/C if necc. any rusted steel brake lines necc. (and boy do they rust) custom made in house. 2) Suspension - any ball joints necc., tie rod ends, pitman arm bushings as necc. rebuild shocks likely, A-arm bushings are metal, so can't tell without an inspection (depends on use & mileage),. Inspect, adjust, replace as necc. fr. wheel bearings. check rears for condition. 3) Drive Line - clutch???...fix T/A leaks, pack or replace CV joints. Fill T/A with GL-6 & plenty of Lmtd. Slip Snot from GM. 4) Electrical - fix any preexisting conditions (shorts, bad grounds) and install 60-80 amp Alt. & shunt amp meter to still read correctly. 5) Engine- Fix leaks, water & oil, tune-up, *comp. test & cylinder leakage if you really want to know ;-)* check chains, adjust valves, check cam timing, check that Distribs work properly, rebuild if the advance mech.is shot, new points, thorough general inspection. Clean & Tune Carbs as necc..plugs, re-wrinkle covers and and air cleaner, new fuel filter, I prefer to change over to Mobil 1 oil. 6) Cooling System - Flush Radiator and Reseal any cracked seems, new hoses of course. Check fans, plastic blades if the fans are getting tired. 7) Exhaust - replace any rusted out sections. rear mufflers are available again. I happen to have some carb tops & velocity stacks (thanks Bill ) and like Bill says, cold air boxes haven't been around in many years... I don't know about other guys, but I don't like to throw numbers around. Basically Daytonas are Time & Materials. I have a rough idea of course, because I've done them, however I don't want to scare the 308 guys...lol....just kiddin. Plenty I don't know about your particular car, however based on experience the above list should address all the issues to bring an average Daytona current. Of course some issues will take priority while others may be put off depending. | ||
| William Badurski (Billb)
Junior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 97 Registered: 6-2001 |
wm hart: 1. Just got some velocity stacks and carb tops for a customer car. Expect to pay about $2500. Cold air box is hard to find, we're planning on fabricating one based on mine. 2. Tough call without checking it over. 3. Good tune and complete service. 4. Engine overhaul and higher compression pistons, about $20-25k. Transaxle overhaul- $2-3k. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 575 Registered: 12-2001 |
So,JRV, are you the guy that wrote the book about slipping a 12 into a 308? Book commands out of print prices, for those who are not simply photocopying it... I'll ask you and bill b. to comment on the cost of some daytona work and upgrades: 1. adding the velocity stacks and cold air box 2. assuming everything in the car is in good order, but the car hasn't been restored, what would spend money on, mechanically, as a priority? (for go, not show) 3. what are the most likely things to need attention mechanically? 4. In short, assuming the car is not a bucket, what would the better than average daytona cost to make mechanically right (and i appreciate that this is a dumb sky's the limit question, but if you were spending your money, what would you do and how much would it cost a retail customer)? | ||
| William Badurski (Billb)
Junior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 96 Registered: 6-2001 |
JRV, Just got a chance to get back on the old confuser, and saw your latest post. So you were the guy who did that. I saved the article that was published on it, but filed it so well I can't find it now! Must have been a real project, but as I recall the results got rave reviews. Neat. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 95 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hey Doug, Well that's sorta how it started with me, I was going to do this until I figured out what I wanted to be when I grew up, but I never grew up so it became a mute point...;-)... Back to Daytonas, I see Bill isn't goin for the bait, comon' Bill, get a sense of humor, if us bretheren of the wrench can't have a little fun with each other then who can ???? ;-) Is a Daytona engine the Block, Crank, Rods and Pistons ? or must it have 4cam heads on it also? The engine in the pic is a '69' Daytona engine (365) with 2 cam heads and front cover installed. Yes, I installed it in a 308. Had to convert it to 2cams, because the 4cam heads wouldn't fit (too wide). The 2cam head 6 carb manifolds I had cast with the help of a dentist friend. Actually I think we cast up 5 or 6 sets that would fit 330-365 2 cam engines. | ||
| Douglas A Hunt (Boxercrazy)
New member Username: Boxercrazy Post Number: 4 Registered: 11-2002 |
NICE Daytonas on this post and the other post,i love these daytona/and other v 12 posts!!! not trying to hijack this post(see help wanted),but i gotta say JRV if i was 20 years younger i would be on the first plane to texas to work for ya,unfortunately i am to old to chase that kinda dream,but man oh man if only i had saw an ad like that when i was trying to figure out what i wanted to do as a career i would probably be a texan right now!!! sorry to babble you guys rock on!!! douglas hunt | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 85 Registered: 11-2002 |
Here's a nice Daytona I service. Not much chrome but still pretty nice imo.  | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 84 Registered: 11-2002 |
This should be interesting. . What parts constitute a Daytona engine and how exactly is a Daytona engine defined? Now don't pull a rousch on me and act like you saw everyone being made...;-)... | ||
| William Badurski (Billb)
Junior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 95 Registered: 6-2001 |
Not a Daytona engine. That was the 12 cylinder engine modified for installation in a 308. I think it was a 330. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 78 Registered: 11-2002 |
What year Daytona Engine is this guys?  | ||
| William Badurski (Billb)
Junior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 94 Registered: 6-2001 |
TomD: Yes I did. That was amazing. Peter's really done an outstanding job of keeping that car nice. It's a relief to know one of your cars went to someone who appreciates it so. Horsefly: Yes, as a matter of fact this happened to me once. The coil wire end burned off while driving back from Chicago on I-55. I made the trip on a smooth running, but noticeably less powerful engine. No side effects, no burned mufflers. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 386 Registered: 5-2002 |
Please excuse my dumb question: On the dual distributor V12s like the Daytona has; what happens if one of the coils shorts out or opens up? Will one bank of cylinders continue to dump unburned fuel through the engine and out the exhaust pipe as the other bank continues to operate? In other words, do you get a muffler burning red hot like you do in a 308 with a non-functioning cylinder bank? Just curious. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1684 Registered: 9-2001 |
Bill You used to own Peter's 308 gt4 right? I remember that funny post when you guys realized it | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 59 Registered: 11-2002 |
Bill, I forgot to mention, looks like you need one of my Daytona P/S setups and my Daytona A/C upgrades to go with that beautiful custom work. Can I pencil you in for one? ;-) Regards, JRV | ||
| William Badurski (Billb)
Junior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 93 Registered: 6-2001 |
Lee, 14113. Previously owned 14585 and 16937. | ||
| William Badurski (Billb)
Junior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 92 Registered: 6-2001 |
Forgot the engine shot after rebuild just before installation. The undercar shot on previous post shows my fabricated straight pipes used to replace the stock mufflers. Just makes the sound that much more terrific using only the resonators. Also, here's a photo of the air box base with the top removed.   | ||
| Lee Sanders (Lsand007)
New member Username: Lsand007 Post Number: 16 Registered: 3-2002 |
Bill - Beauty of a car. What is the Telaio? Lee BB512 # 27001 | ||
| William Badurski (Billb)
Junior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 91 Registered: 6-2001 |
Thanks for the kind words guys. Yeah, I spent a long time under the car cleaning and painting. The tires are Yokohamas, and after 12,000 miles of "spirited" driving they're used up. New ones next spring, still trying to figure out what works best. The cold air box is a comp Daytona piece I found through the club. It houses the velocity stacks, and I modified it to use a standard Daytona air filter element to protect my recently overhauled engine. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1666 Registered: 9-2001 |
work of art - very very nice!!!! Nice to see some wear on the rear tires too | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 57 Registered: 11-2002 |
Beautiful car Bill !!! you even have a 'cold air box' nice. | ||
| Malcolm Barksdale (Malcolmb)
New member Username: Malcolmb Post Number: 10 Registered: 4-2002 |
Might try Amazon if Rouch doesnt have a copy. I enjoy mine and consider it worth the price. Bill, have you spent any time on your Daytona? Fantastic. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 571 Registered: 12-2001 |
Superb, Bill. Never saw a cleaner underside either! BTW, what's the story on the air cleaner/box? | ||
| William Badurski (Billb)
Junior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 90 Registered: 6-2001 |
    Couldn't resist posting a few pics of my car too. The "A" designation remains a mystery, but I agree it was used on Euro cars with USA pop-up lights. The one I looked at also had Dinoplex ignitions. There is no differentiation in the parts manuals for engine parts, with the exception of carburetor jets. The Euro exhaust is a slip-joint design and feaures balance tubes running from the header collectors into the sides of the mufflers. USA exhaust did not have this feature, and used three-bolt flange connections. Hangers differed as well, with USA using round O-rings while Euros had the conventional Ferrari straps and 8mm bolts. | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
Junior Member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 52 Registered: 3-2002 |
The Daytona book by Roush and Braden is a great resource. I bought it when it first came out and I still dig it out every few months to reread. It is full of useful tidbits and old pictures. I would think that any Daytona fanatic should own this one. | ||
| Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member Username: Pcelenta Post Number: 200 Registered: 7-2002 |
back in the 70's roush along with FAF (now ferrari of atlanta) published a tuning/survival type of guide for the v-12's.. covers a bunch of tuning and some improvising for lack of parts. different book. I haven't seen the daytona book. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 570 Registered: 12-2001 |
Hey, Paul: don't have a copy of FML to hand, but it was a book devoted to the Daytona, and unless the thing was signed by Enzo himself, i doubt its worth that kind of money. I was curious because i haven't seen the book, and wanted to know if it was useful to a prospective owner. I also don't know how to separate the truth from the mythology(eg "A" type engines are more powerful), so, its just one more possible resource. (And, part of the fun, is as you know, the chase, including the research that goes into it). | ||
| Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member Username: Pcelenta Post Number: 199 Registered: 7-2002 |
mr. hart...which roush book? Ferrari tuning tips & maintenance techniques? I have 3rd edition 1975 that you can take a look at (you are in NYC) I am not sure I would spend $300 plus on it...it is quite dated...do you have Ferrari Guide to a Performance by Allen Bishop? It is very good. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Junior Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 56 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>I'd like to see what others, particularly Bill Badurski and JRV, have to say about this. Additionally, I've seen pictures that indicate that the European Daytona's appear not to have the digiplex and have a slightly different exhaust.<<< The 'exhaust' and minor carb jettings were the differences in HP between the Euro & US versions. Many guys converted to the Euro headers and rear sections. The internals were identical as far as everything I've ever seen or heard, and none of my old books(workshop manuels) make any reference to anything internal being different.. Correct the Euro & Early versions didn't have the digiplex's and started and ran just fine. A note about plugs...the factory recommended a plug generaly too cold for the way the americans used the cars (much less balls out than the Euro's), so hotter plugs were usually installed early on to eliminate fouling on start-up. I will add the caveat that, if you were special & rich enough a custom set-up could be had. So generaly I refer to production cars unless specificaly noted. PS: I don't mind being corrected when wrong, when dealing with Ferrari's I long ago accepted the fact that because of the Hand Built, Custom, Low Volume Nature of the old cars there are exceptions to every rule and none of us has seen all of any of them. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 568 Registered: 12-2001 |
Drew: thanks for the response. If you wanted to get rid of that book, since you no longer have the car, i would gladly buy it from you; i think Rousch himself was recently offering a copy at $340 (but as he will be the first to tell you, that is merely the "asking" price). Once again, thanks to input from many of you with knowledge and experience, this has been a good thread.(I met Rijk one fine day on the West side hi-way in NYC, and couldn't resist the sound or visual aspect of his silver daytona). | ||
| Drew Altemara (Drewa)
Junior Member Username: Drewa Post Number: 76 Registered: 2-2002 |
Whart, I have Roush's (and Braden's) book and use to own a 73 USA Daytona. In it he argues that the "A" was probably ment to desiginate a Euro pop-up headlight Daytona. He goes on to quote build sheets showing that there was no difference in pistons and rings, etc and no one has ever proven to him that it had more horsepower. I'd like to see what others, particularly Bill Badurski and JRV, have to say about this. Additionally, I've seen pictures that indicate that the European Daytona's appear not to have the digiplex and have a slightly different exhaust. Does a Euro Daytona (not necessarily an "A") have better performance/drivability than a US Daytona? Regards, Drew | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Junior Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 211 Registered: 4-2002 |
That is one beautiful Muira. If you ever want/need to get rid of it, drop me a line. | ||
| Najib Amanullah (Najib)
Junior Member Username: Najib Post Number: 232 Registered: 4-2001 |
Dave, I agree. For my money, the 365 GTC/4 is much prettier and looks more of a balanced shape. The Daytona however, was a brute of a car in its days. | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 347 Registered: 4-2002 |
'For looks' Give me that Miura over a Daytona anyday. Please could someone explain to me why there was ever so much fuss made about the Daytona? IMO its looks are nothing to write home about, I've always been a little bemused by the Daytona's percieved mystique! I am clearly missing something thats so obvious I cant see it. | ||
| Douglas A Hunt (Boxercrazy)
New member Username: Boxercrazy Post Number: 3 Registered: 11-2002 |
well the daytona is one of MY all time favorites,but i gotta say VERY NICE MUIRA!!! Ive always had a soft spot for that lambo. definately a classic to me!! great pics of the daytonas too!! douglas hunt | ||
| Kelly (Tifosi1)
Member Username: Tifosi1 Post Number: 484 Registered: 2-2002 |
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| JRV (Jrvall)
New member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 46 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>Partnered with a friend who has a complete machine shop. See our ad in this month's Forza under "Dave Smith Classics".<<< Bill, Cool,... was very different in the old days when I was getting started = "early 70's'. The darn old timers made us start at the bottom and work our way up. Progress I guess. JRV ps: Great lookin car Ed!! >>>>>wanna race..?  | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2226 Registered: 2-2001 |
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| William Badurski (Billb)
Junior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 89 Registered: 6-2001 |
Hi JRV. Yeah, I've a couple spare MSD's too. I did have to have the block machined. Bores were out of round, so went .010 over and new JE pistons with 10:1 ratio for pump gas. No warranty, but changed oil at 100 and 500 miles, then at 1000 miles began running it to 7800. Runs strong, not a leak anywhere. I'm doing a customer engine and trans this winter. Partnered with a friend who has a complete machine shop. See our ad in this month's Forza under "Dave Smith Classics". | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
New member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 45 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>I installed an MSD 6A. It was nearly a bolt-in, and the tach sender worked with the Veglia tach. No more ignition problems after that. <<< So are you a buyer of all the old ones I have by the pound? ;-) >>>did my own engine overhaul complete for about $9500 in parts, and that included everything (pistons, rings, bearings chain, etc.) <<< Sounds reasonable, how much warranty did you give yourself? And I assume you went out and layed the hammer down often just to make sure you did everything right, before the warranty ran out? The ones I've done required a visit to the Engine Machine Shop, guess you got lucky. ;-) Just kiddin Bill, I can afford to be subjective, I don't have one I'll want to sell to somebody else one of these days ;-). Now a real daily driver is a Red/Blck '67' Lamborghini Muira, showroom restored...*wink* | ||
| William Badurski (Billb)
Junior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 88 Registered: 6-2001 |
Well, here I go again. First, about the Boxer ignition, I had number 17403. When the Dinoplex stopped whirring (and the sparks stopped too), I installed an MSD 6A. It was nearly a bolt-in, and the tach sender worked with the Veglia tach. No more ignition problems after that. Back to the Daytona thread. Ed Gault's comment about driving one first is sound advice. I however have a different view on things. Lower the steering wheel to the lowest adjustment, tilt the seat all the way back, adjust the pedals to suit, and I find it the most comfortable driving position of any Ferrari, and most other cars, I've ever owned. My gearbox goes into second gear the moment I try it, cold or not (as did my previous one). I use synthetic oil and maybe that's the reason. True the gearbox and the engine require several miles to warm. What with 18.5 quarts of oil in the engine and tank, that's understandable. This car is an endurance race champion, and consequently a large capacity oil system is a good thing. Yes the steering is heavy at parking maneuvers, but who cares after that? I respect other opinions, as everyone has different perspectives. On the Mileage issue, a well-maintained car is what you're looking for regardless. Do a compression and leak-down test on the engine, and a good test drive to check for weak transaxle synchros, especially 2nd. If a trans overhaul is in order, expect to pay $2-3k. I did my own engine overhaul complete for about $9500 in parts, and that included everything (pistons, rings, bearings chain, etc.) One other weak point is the exhaust system's rear section. The resonators tilt upwards and condensation tends to linger at the forward bulkhead, causing rust through. Replace these with stainless steel ones once and forget them thereafter. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
New member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 43 Registered: 11-2002 |
Did anyone mention that the Lmtd Slip Diffs chatter like a B***ch around slow speed corners? and that the A/c might have been ok in "69-72"..but in warmer climates it's not really adequate by todays expectations. Any and all of the Daytonas downsides can be serviced/updated or modified to bring them up to current expectations or desires, but for the most part I'm with Edward G . I love Daytonas, but they are NOT 'transportation', and never were meant to be. They were "Supercars" of the day that one could drive. | ||
| Edward Gault (Irfgt)
Intermediate Member Username: Irfgt Post Number: 2225 Registered: 2-2001 |
I would suggest that anyone that is fantacizing about a Daytona had better drive one before they lay down their money. While they have timeless lines, the driveability is something else. The seating is attrocious, brakes are crude, cold natured as hell, gearbox needs 20 miles to warm up to eventually shift badly, exhaust odor will taint your suit, and steers like a Mack truck. Hardly a car for every day service. It clearly is an occasional driver to show off and say "Look what I have." | ||
| Malcolm Barksdale (Malcolmb)
New member Username: Malcolmb Post Number: 9 Registered: 4-2002 |
Well, finally somethingto which I might contribute. { I cant really participate in those "how do you wash your car" threads, I take mine to the carwash.}I bought my Daytona last may, picked it up outside Philadelphia and drove it to San Diego. It burned one quart of oil on that trip. The others on the thread have covered the basics, there are one or two little irritations: The vent windows has a glued on latch. It doesnt stay glued because the moment arm is too long because the pivit is not thoughtfully located. Other than that I think it is a pretty clever and tough old car. I paid $128000 for what I think is a really nice street car. After I got it home I had a major service and it runs great now, doesnt do anythig strange. I think almost everything is available for it, not neccesarily in a timly manner.... I would like to have the dash recovered but havent found the original material yet.15 years ago I had a C4, it too was a great car but not as pretty as the Daytona. I drove mine daily for 5 years, sold it with about 80000 miles on it.I think the C4 has the best exhaust note, with the Daytona second.My Daytona has stock ignition and it has been no trouble. I have put about 6000 miles on it this year. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 307 Registered: 4-2002 |
Rijk and William B. THANKS for all the great info. Im certainly not a wealthy guy, but I do subscribe to the live life to the fullest philosophy. I could probably stretch to afford a Daytona, but I would want to do all my own maintenance. Its not only cheaper that way... but part of the fun. While not a professional mechanic by any means, I have totally restored E-Type Jags and done tons of work on all the 911's I have owned over the years. Everything I have read seems to indicate a Daytona would be relatively easy to maintain. At least its not the packaging nightmare my 308 is! The valve adjustments look to be a snap.... same basic philosophy as on the E Jag, except the moronic Jaguar shims are UNDER the bucket and replacing them requires removing the cam. You REALLY have to be precise in your measurements and math.... or it can get to be a nightmare in a hurry. I'm justifying this idea because I hope the car will not depreciate and may actual gain some value in the coming years. I know better than to think of a car as an investment.... but at least a Daytona would be better than something like a new Porsche turbo. I also like old cars because the more modern cars have to be pushed insanely hard to really get a sense of speed and thrill on the street. When I get to serously looking, I will contact you guys. I agree on the stressing mechanical and structural excellence over cosmetics. Detailing an engine bay, restoring some interior panels or having to repaint the car dont terrify me. Huge mechanical parts bills or impossible to find rusted body panels do.... I would hope to find a good Daytona for under $120K but who knows? It seems extremely difficult to guage value on these cars. The one for sale in Canada right now for $100K I think has 75K miles on it. At what mileage would you think one of these would be requiring serious work? IS a low mileage original as good as a higher mileage rebuilt car? I would tend to lean toward higher mileage with recent restoration. Terry | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
New member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 41 Registered: 11-2002 |
Let me add that no amount of 'magical' ignition gadgets throwing multi-sparks, billion volts, praying to, or yelling at the plugs or anything else is a cure for poorly tuned over rich carbs. I have a shelf full of used MSD's...I'll sell them by the pound, you supply the truck to haul them off in....;-). | ||
| Armen Gugasian (Ag512bbi)
New member Username: Ag512bbi Post Number: 3 Registered: 6-2002 |
Rijk, At what mileage did you have to do that work on the Daytona? But then again at this point, years are more important than the miles when it comes to the services... | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
New member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 39 Registered: 11-2002 |
Guys, Do your rings and valve guides a BIGGGGG Favor and don't run your engines rich. Running rich is niether normal or neccesary. I just finished tuning a set last week. Even on 30 yr old carbs I would not settle for anything over 4% CO-- 400ppm HC....the max acceptable to keep from "washing" the guides and rings of lubricant is 5% CO....any thing over about 600ppm HC is a 'miss'. Additionaly, the leaner a motor is run (to a point) the MORE HP it produces and the better the throttle response will be, as well as the smoother it will idle. To achieve that Ferrari "ripping paper" throttle response the cars need to all be the same (balanced) and lean = 3.5% CO 300-400ppm HC's. Cars are not Magic, they're science! | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
New member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 38 Registered: 11-2002 |
**US conformed cars can be modified to achieve higher performance; whether the velocity stacks will for some reason reduce HP (i was told this, but hey, i'll believe anything) and, i assume, fatter wheels in the back...*** Even the first Daytona that ran Lemans was modified here, so sure they can. The 'velocity stacks' improve performance on the mid & top end. It takes different carb tops to fit Velocity Stacks on the DCN series carbs. A 'cold air box' intake air cleaner assembly was also developed to improve HP back in the days. If anyone is thinking of converting to VS's I have a set of factory Stacks and Carb Tops. They fit any of the DCN series carbs, 14-21 | ||
| Rijk Rietveld (Rijk365gtb4)
Junior Member Username: Rijk365gtb4 Post Number: 76 Registered: 1-2002 |
I'm no expert like BillB, but I can post an image of the electronic system for you later. The way I understand it, is that the spark was too strong for the old wires and the electricity all of a sudden arched over from wire to wire, screwing up the timing massively. I almost peed in my pants, it sounded like $30K of damage. WWoC came out immediately and after checking the electrical system, still drove the car back to the shop. Since the new wires and a replacement of the ignition under warrantee, the car runs incredibly strong. | ||
| Lee Sanders (Lsand007)
New member Username: Lsand007 Post Number: 15 Registered: 3-2002 |
This is for Bill B and Rijk, and anyone else who wants to help. I have Boxer # 27001 which I am considering conversion to an electronic ignition; either Electomotive or MSD. I was curious about Rijk's "fried" wiring - what was fried and why? Also, any comments on the MSD and Electromotive would be appreciated. My regrets if I've high-jacked the thread away from Daytonas. Lee Sanders Minneapolis | ||
| William Badurski (Billb)
Junior Member Username: Billb Post Number: 87 Registered: 6-2001 |
Terry, The Daytona is one of the great Ferraris. I've owned three, currently a "cut" car done in Modena with every last detail correct. The post about power steering on the spyders is incorrect. No Daytona ever came with it, but some owners have put GTC4 steering on them. Rijk's post is right on the money regarding ownership experiences. These cars are very dependable, and are easy to work on. Valve adjustments are simple, and only required every 10,000 miles or so. Parts are readily available too. I overhauled my engine last year, and am currently doing another for a customer who has 70,000 miles on his. That engine is in extremely good shape considering the mileage. Slight cylinder wear and the usual oil leaks one would expect from 30 year old gaskets and seals. The negative aspects of a Daytona are heavy low-speed steering (which becomes very good and communicative on the road), and relatively high brake effort as the car is heavy and the brake technology is also 30 years old. Neither will be a serious drawback, although when I raced a coupe I did some minor brake system improvements for track use. When looking for one, watch out for rust under the quarter windows above the rear wheel arches, as a drain in the quarter panel is a notorious source of corrosion there. I do not agree with the statement about ring and pinions being weak. Again, I've logged 60,000+ miles in Daytonas and never had this problem. The exhaust note ranks up there with the best of any Ferrari ever built. Driving through a covered bridge with the engine howling will raise the hair on the back of your neck! Also, the seats in a Daytona are as close to a true racing seat you will find in any Ferrari. I get a kick out of all the cars described as having "Daytona" seats. If you've ever sat in one, you'll know that everything else just comes close, but none grab your ass like a real Daytona's. I've even got a Daytona seat as my bar stool. A friend once described the seats best... he said these things are so form-fitting I can tell how many dollar bills I have in my wallet! I've judged these cars at the national concours level, and consider myself an expert on them. Consequently, if you need any help, feel free to contact me at the Ferrari Club Tech E-mail, [email protected] Bill Badurski Technical Chairman- Ferrari Club of America | ||
| Rijk Rietveld (Rijk365gtb4)
Junior Member Username: Rijk365gtb4 Post Number: 75 Registered: 1-2002 |
I'm lucky enough to have s/n 14771. This is the full story as I see it: 1 Heavy steering, no big deal, as soon as you're rolling its OK. While at speed there is wonderful feedback, the car goes straight, only has problems with hunting over pavement with truck grooves in it (whatever you call that). Driving over rumble strips will give a lot of clatter; it tells you that suspension design has come a long way. 2 Brakes are definitely from 30 years back. I always keep my distance; a lot of force is needed to slow down fast. Brake feel is good. If you have to start the car on a slope, before you have boost, you need a lot of pedal force, the handbrake is marginal too. 3 The engine starts in one try after you let the fuel pump run for 20 seconds. Warm starts are only slightly more difficult. To get the car to run evenly at idle, all these cars are running too rich. This gives slight backfiring in traffic jams and leaves a coating on the back of the car. So, watch out for the inspection. In NY, cars over 25 years are exempt; in NJ they have a minimum standard, which is impossible to reach, so you are limited to historic plates. 4 The sound is incredible, total sensory overload. I always say that this car is exiting at any speed, while the new cars are "too good". With a modern Ferrari you have to do highly illegal things to get the same sensation. And did I mention the sound? Always loud, but above 4000 revs hell breaks loose all the way up to 7700 rpm. Also I like that the sound is legal. The best sounding Ferrari on the road. 5 The exterior design is timeless with no weak angles. Since my car is silver, only a limited amount of fellow drivers notice the car, it also does not scream out to the cops. The best acknowledgement is always that cars around me open their windows. The interior is so basic; I love the eight dials right in front of me (especially at night, when nothing else is lit up) and find that I use all the information. Keep the revs up above Idle in heavy traffic to keep the battery loaded, No going above 3000 rpm until the oil temperature shows some movement (sometimes this takes 15 miles). Built quality of the interior is limited, mouse hair dash discolors slowly, and I need new seals everywhere. 6 I paid 132K with the brakes redone, new clutch, new exhaust, major service, full new synchro rings and 3 months of warrantee at WWoC. Everything works except the window washers. I spend $2K on adding electronic ignition. This made the car run better than new, but just for 25 miles, after which it fried the wiring (this is the only time I got stuck with the car), so I spent another 2K for better wiring. Now the car drives better than when new. Besides this upgrade I spend around $2K/year on little things and 2 oil and filter changes. Next year we will have the next major service. 7 I really drive the car (7K miles per year). Cosmetically the car is not perfect, but mechanically wonderful. Compression is high; when warm I still have 90-PSI oil pressure. I used 2 quarts of oil every 3500 miles, so this is very good. It uses a lot of gas; my range is almost 250 miles (but I rarely drive on highways) with a capacity of 27 gallons (10mi/gallon) 8 I have a 420 spider on order and I hope a can afford to have both, since they are so on opposite sides of the spectrum. For every drive you would have to make a difficult decision. Conclusion: I love my Daytona. When you are in NY I'll be happy to let you drive. If you decide to get one, pay more attention to mechanicals than cosmetics. This is the longest post I've ever written. Maybe I should have made these 10 posts like Martin. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 306 Registered: 4-2002 |
If you did end up needing an engine rebuild, are parts obtainable? Are there machine shops out there you could send the block and heads to for any work they may need? How about shop manuals for repairs? Ring and pinion $15K ? Ouch! It would seem you could take it to a top notch machine shop and have one made for much less than that. Its hard to tell if prices are soft or not. Asking prices seem to be going up, according to FML. However the same cars are for sale month after month. I question whether prices have come down a bit, or cars are just not selling. Terry | ||
| Don Vollum (Donv)
New member Username: Donv Post Number: 36 Registered: 1-2002 |
I plan to own a Daytona some day myself, although that day is probably a way in the future. For my current life situation, a 365GTC/4 seems more practical (and knock it off about the "clown lips"!), since it has back seats for the kids and reasonable trunk space. Of course, if practicality were the issue I'd be looking at a Toyota... It seems to me that Daytona prices are a bit soft these days. I've seen a couple of them listed at around $100k or less, claiming to be good cars. Look at: http://www.brianjesselferrari.com/preowned.html (scroll down). There was another one in Hemmings this month for under $100k. I was told by a salesman that the motors are good for around 75k miles between overhauls. This seems a bit low to me, anyone have any thoughts? This may explain why the one I linked to above is priced as it is. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 566 Registered: 12-2001 |
I have been hunting a Daytona as well, but one of the elusive "Scaglietti" cut cars. I may have found one, and have a remote lead on another. Would like to pick up Roush's book; do any of you have it, and recommend it? (Its long out of print). Would also like to know: whether the "A" engine has higher compression; whether the US conformed cars can be modified to achieve higher performance; whether the velocity stacks will for some reason reduce HP (i was told this, but hey, i'll believe anything) and, i assume, fatter wheels in the back...Anything else i'm missing, other than that the car should be right, be well papered, etc. | ||
| Dr. Mike Adams (Drmike)
New member Username: Drmike Post Number: 9 Registered: 5-2002 |
Tom Shaughnessy currently has a nice black 365GTB/4 spider conversion. I think he is asking $125k for it. It's not on the website. But was still there and available when I was down at his shop last week. http://www.vintageferrariparts.com | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 712 Registered: 5-2002 |
Oh but be careful one was made for the car I drove and the material was to hard and it tore things up. | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 711 Registered: 5-2002 |
The ring and pinion are know to fail and they are expensive.However I know that people are having them made at machine shops for resonable money. | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 710 Registered: 5-2002 |
I've driven a coupe at speed at the Glen It is a great ride and a true vintage "Enzo" Ferrari. I have also noticed that the coupes are getting down under the 100k mark from time to time great time to buy.When it was nuts a Daytona convertible was doing 1.2 million and a coupe 900k. Good hunting! | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
New member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 30 Registered: 11-2002 |
Daytonas are not daily drivers by modern definition imo. And a 'good one' is a good bit over 100K. Anyone can probably get one to run or keep it puttering, however they require real mechanics to be kept running right. Of course I've been cussed for claiming that only running on 9 cylnders wasn't running right. I heard a new ring & pinion sold recently for $15K in the box. | ||
| Vince (Manatee)
Junior Member Username: Manatee Post Number: 75 Registered: 6-2002 |
Terry, I know someone in the Atlanta area who might be selling their Daytona. Drop me a note and I'll see if I can get the two of you in touch. I love them. Everything is great except the aforementioned heavy steering and brakes. | ||
| David P. Smith (Dave330gtc)
Junior Member Username: Dave330gtc Post Number: 51 Registered: 3-2002 |
The 330 is a great car to drive. I am a little disappointed in the exhaust tone however and would like to experiment a little in the near future. I too would like to own a Daytona someday. The previous owner of my 330 also owned a Daytona and agreed that the 330 was by far an easier, more comfortable car to drive but that there was something special about the Daytona that kept him from selling it. | ||
| Jim Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 52 Registered: 10-2002 |
The spyders came with power steering, the coupes can be fitted with it. (There's a post in the tech section about this) They are great cars. The most famous one was driven from NY to LA in about 33 hours! Real racing versions are worth $1 million+. I missed two a real spyder,the last one WWOC's sold for $28,000. They would only give me $7,000 for my 275GTB in trade I wanted $10,000. (When I sold it later for $14,000 thought I did great) and the aforementioned "Cannonball Daytona" I bid 125 it went for 155. Wish I had paid up. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 406 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jay is right, again. Daytona sounds and performance (almost) but with power steering! It would have to be in a dark color, of course, to better conceal those clown lips! | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 713 Registered: 10-2001 |
Or if you don't want to pay for a Daytona there is always...  | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 405 Registered: 8-2002 |
I agree. Expect to pay around a buck twenty five for a very nice, non-concours example. I recommend that you drive one before you commit yourself to Daytona ownership. If you want a car you can cruise around and run errands in on weekends, the 330 GTC is your car. It combines vintage looks with a modern driving experience. If, however, you are looking for bad-ass, balls-to-the-wall accelleration combined with a beefier exhaust note (and VERY heavy steering at slower speeds), the Daytona is it. Personally, I think I would get more actual enjoyment out of owning the GTC. I just wish it sounded more like the Daytona. | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 712 Registered: 10-2001 |
Get a spider and invest in a set of goggles and a long scarff to blow in the wind behind you! I love the Daytona, probably one of the most beautiful Pininfarina designs both the coupe and spider. If someone has chopped the roof make sure it was done correctly, frame reinforced ect. I'd say 100K is a little on the low side for a good example. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 305 Registered: 4-2002 |
I've been thinking more and more about the possibility of getting a Daytona sometime early to mid next year. I'm not ready to sell the 308 yet, but if business stays good and some other things work out who knows. Anyone out there own and drive a Daytona? Tell me what you know about maintenance costs? Parts availability? Upsides and downsides to owning and driving one? Ive heard from some people who have driven both that a 330GTC is a better car. I like the way a 330GTC looks, but the Daytona has been my favorite F-car since I was a teenager. Anyone know of any of these cars selling recently. It seems asking prices have been moving up, but I also see the same cars for sale month after month (Hemmings, FML, Ebay, Collector Auto Trader...). I would want a car that was mechanically perfect, excellent interior, no rust or accident damage ever and good paint. I dont want a concours condition trailer queen, I want a well sorted and reliable car I can drive. If it needed a paint job in a few years, no big deal I can do high quality paint work. I would guess a Daytona like this would be worth around $100K.... but who really knows? Is maintaining one of these a nightmare? So far, doing all my own maintenance on the 308 has been no huge deal. It would seem a Daytona would be easier to maintain, except perhaps for parts prices. I understand the valves need frequent adjustment, but this looks to be more of a time consuming thing than a real difficult thing. Tell me all your Daytona stories! Anyone know anyone who owns one in the Atlanta area who may be willing to let a fellow fanatic take a look? Terry |