| Author | Message | ||
| Mark Freeman (Mrpc12)
Junior Member Username: Mrpc12 Post Number: 114 Registered: 11-2001 |
Dave: Last year when I bought the car (14K miles) I did an inspection and put about $11K into it. New Clutch, Replaced all hoses under the intake area, 15K service, Tubi Exhaust and 2 rear tires. Now, one year later and 6,700 miles they find all this. (not calipers just pads and rotors). I kind of agree about looking somewhere else for service but on the other hand these guys are the local authorized service for Ferrari and they sort of have me by the balls for now. I can't afford to pay this kind of money for service on the car so my plan is to sell the car in another 6-12 months. Therefore, having the timing belts done by the authorized Ferrari service shop would be one less thing to worry about when selling it. Also, I could use them for the pre-purchase inspection since they have done all the service exclusively on the car. Anyone want to buy a 98 550 - Rossa Corsa Red / Tan with 21K miles, Tubi, bitchin stereo and all service up to date? I would sell it for $129K or else I'll keep driving it and sell it for a little less next year. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 565 Registered: 1-2002 |
Mark, as a 550 owner, I strongly suggest getting a 2nd opinion. Unless the previous owner absolutely thrashed the car (you did do a pre purchase inspection, didn't you?), this sounds suspect. Front calipers & rotors??? Good grief! Do you realize what you have to do to nuke the 550's brakes? Valve cover gasket leaking? On a 550??? VERY out of the ordinary. I'd get it checked by someone else before parting with your money... JMHO. | ||
| David Burch (Merlyn)
New member Username: Merlyn Post Number: 26 Registered: 8-2002 |
Mark, how many miles on the 550 for those kinds of repairs? I ask because I am getting one, but you are making me nervous. I have almost 15,000 on the 355 with no problems other than an AC problem fixed under warranty. | ||
| Mark Freeman (Mrpc12)
Junior Member Username: Mrpc12 Post Number: 113 Registered: 11-2001 |
Good advice on the maintenance. However, I took the car in to get an oil change and brake fluid service and then got an estimate for over $7K of repairs.... New front brakes and rotors, valve cover gasket leaking, etc. So while they have the car torn apart I figured I might as well get the timing belt service done so I save some of the labor. This is ending up being one expensive track event. | ||
| Sean Ruckel (Sruckel)
Junior Member Username: Sruckel Post Number: 112 Registered: 10-2001 |
Just did two track sessions in my Esprit, and the best advice I can give is make sure you find a very experienced instructor, hopefully one that has run the track many times before. My driving improved drastically between my first outing without an instructor and the second with an instructor. What was great, is I ran a few laps so he could get a feel for my driving, then he did a few laps to show me what the car can do. Then, during the breaks, we got out the track map and went over every corner and discussed what was happening. Every few laps we concentrated on nailing a different spot until I was lapping reasonably well. It would be a good idea to make notes on your own track map for later reference. Also, make sure you do all the normal prep work, like flushing brake fluid, checking all fluids, etc. I've learned the hard way about not having fresh fluids or too worn brake pads. It really spoils your day to have to cut your track time short for something easily preventable. Anyway, have a blast out there, and be sure to take some pics. I went to Home Depot and fabricated my own video mount and I'm glad I have video from the events. Remember - shiny side up! | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 253 Registered: 3-2001 |
Joel, well said. | ||
| Joel Belser (Driver)
New member Username: Driver Post Number: 14 Registered: 9-2002 |
Learn the correct line around the track, when to use early and late apexes, braking points, shifting techniques and you will be a better driver under any and all conditions. The speed will come as these skills are mastered. Drive within your "exhiliration" zone and not your fear zone and you will come home with a smile plastered on your face. | ||
| Dr. Anthony Lizano (Docapl)
New member Username: Docapl Post Number: 25 Registered: 4-2002 |
Mark, Most likely I will bring my C32. ESP, traction control and lots of airbags if I really get in trouble.  | ||
| neal (95spiderneal)
New member Username: 95spiderneal Post Number: 45 Registered: 3-2002 |
ive been doing about 10 track days per year since 1999 in pcar. my 1st fcar event was at limerock last march IN THE SNOW. everyone thought i was crazy but it was a fantastic learning experience. the easiest way to learn car control is in the wet at lower speeds. the object of non compet track days is to learn your car not to race so i recommend turning off all computer controls and going slowly enough to stay in manual control of your car. and of course get the fcar on track (regardless of weather) | ||
| Mark Freeman (Mrpc12)
Junior Member Username: Mrpc12 Post Number: 112 Registered: 11-2001 |
yes, I think the weather is going to end up being the determining factor for me. If it's a wet track then I would use the Porsche with AWD and wait for another Buttonwillow or Thunderhill event for the Ferrari. | ||
| acw (Acw)
Junior Member Username: Acw Post Number: 129 Registered: 2-2002 |
Mark, I'm in a somewhat similar situation. During the last year I have tracked both my 996TT and 360 modena. I found the TT to be a lot easier to drive, mostly because of 4WD and PSM. It is also a lot cheaper to run or fix should something wrong take place. I would recommend against turning off PSM at a track which has walls everywhere (Laguna/Sears). Wait for another Buttonwillow event or Thunderhill. I have never heard of someone never spinning a car on a track, hence it is just a matter of time before this happens to any of us. When this happens, you really don't want walls. By switching off PSM, you remove a very effective protection. I have unfortunately seen a few BMW owners crashing their car after switching traction control. You may want to consider running in the yellow (slow) group when you are new to a track. That way you have some time to learn the line without any pressure. I may make it to sears. Still watching the weather... ACW | ||
| Mark Freeman (Mrpc12)
Junior Member Username: Mrpc12 Post Number: 111 Registered: 11-2001 |
Tony, What car are you bringing instead of the 360? Since I've never even had my 550 out on the track at all do you think it would be worth it for me to maybe just run in the Yellow group? Also, I think my friend is bringing the Celica race car that I am part owner of so I could probably use that some as well. I'm really torn about this. I've gotten lot's of good advice and arguments for and against. | ||
| Randy (Schatten)
Member Username: Schatten Post Number: 461 Registered: 4-2001 |
Full Face Bieffe F1GP (with home-made vents for breathing aid!). Usually with the visor cracked. Lots of track debris that flies in and hits me in the face - that's not fun. The Bieffe's I've sold for a few years now, and fully support the lightweight helmets, or else it will kill your neck the next day if you aren't use to the abuse, and have a heavy helmet. | ||
| Dr. Anthony Lizano (Docapl)
New member Username: Docapl Post Number: 23 Registered: 4-2002 |
Mark, I brought my 360 to Tracquest at Laguna last week, but plan to bring another car to Sears. Why ? I have put in over 1000 laps at Laguna in Porsche and Barber cars. I know the nuances of the track well. But I dont know Sears Point at all and until I get the basics figured out, there is no way that I would be willing to risk putting my 360 off that track, and no way that I would even get close to the cars potential. So what's the point to it ? See you at Sears. Tony | ||
| Chris Tanner (Ctanner)
New member Username: Ctanner Post Number: 42 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mark, There is an interesting thread about the Dec 9 event over at Porsche Forum, Rennlist.com. It's in the drivers education forum, under "where your Porsche belongs, Sears Point". Might be worth checking out. As a summary, its a post by one of the Tracquest instructors, who apparently in the past has driven some students cars very agressively, and sideways. The Porsche group kind of came down hard on him. Moral to the story is don't let anyone drive your car that you don't want, even if he is an instructor. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 557 Registered: 1-2002 |
I use a full-face Bell M4, with the dark visor usually open. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 315 Registered: 1-2002 |
Ben- I have edited my post. Thank you for bringing that to my attention; would hate to spread misinformation. Sorry, in reading this thread that particular quote of yours must have alluded me, my apologies. -hubert | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member Username: Benjet Post Number: 893 Registered: 1-2001 |
Hubert - Great contributions to this post ;) Lot of good info in this thread - from everyone! -Ben | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 314 Registered: 1-2002 |
Mark, I've run sears point. And, it is a great track; we ran the ALMS configuration which included the carousel! Sears is much like Laguna, the walls are concrete and close, but it's not as intimidating as it sounds. The only turns you could get into serious trouble are 2-4, and possibly the esses, as they are quick and lead onto an off camber crest that opens onto the back straight. Turn by turn, from memory: We started from the pit exit at turn 7, so: First you hit the esses (collectivly known as turn 8), left, right, left, right over a crest -foot planted- I was topping 3rd exiting 9, into 4th on the back straight, slight kink 10 and then down to 2nd into the hairpin 11; you will get a lot of understeer here. I did even w/ an lsd equipped car. The hairpin opens up onto the front straight, there is a slight kink, and then into turn 1 quick left hander uphill, turn 2 uphill over a crest, late apex, then down hill move over right, set up for turn 3, back uphill -off camber-, then onto 4 which is down hill, slight straight then set up for 5 which leads into the carousel know as turn 6, you want to apex 6 late and let the car track far right -scary b/c you come up on a wall vey quickly, but do it a few times and you'll gain more confidence- this give you plenty of momentum onto the straight that leads back to turn 7, and then you go at it all again! Here is a map: http://www.wurthmotorsports.com/graphics/searspoint.gif I was there in an Integra type R and had many a shocked c5 owner come up to the car in the paddock, shake their head and walk away, silent. Maybe it had something to do with me passing them in the tight sections of the course. Actually, a red 550 (on slicks) was there running in the same group as me, intermediate, and he could NOT get around me in the twisties, then when we got to a straight he simply ATE me a live, but back under braking I had him. Point is, power isn't everything, and if ASR helps you learn the line, smoothly and safely, then use it; pay attention to what the car does in every corner and then make notes. If my cars had TC, I'm sure I'd use it, maybe toggle b/w the two, but none of my track cars have TC; then again, they all dyno under 200 hp at the wheels. For the 1st session of the day take an instructor w/ you, but if I recall trakquest does a mandatory slow speed lap for beginners to show them the line, speed limited I believe. Personally, you don't need to have him/her drive your car, once you remember the line, work on moving back you're brake points, remember your turn in, apex markers (again there will be cones to show you apex's and brkae points; make visual markers) etc. just remind yourself to be smooth, slow, and very deliberate with your inputs; the car will thank you. Have fun. PS- Don't feel bad if your passed by a spec miata, if I remember the spce miata pole time at laguna is a 1:48:xx something; if you know laguna, knocking on 1:50's is pretty damn fast. | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Junior Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 244 Registered: 3-2001 |
Arthur, I hear you pal....but thats racing on the razors edge, which is what it is all about. If it only always worked out perfectly.... . Martin....there should be no fee involved to have an instructor help at an FCA event. I usually have a corp of 30 instructors join our events, and I have all the drivers covered. On the other hand....I will work out a deal.... . David, an experienced instructor will always have a pre-track discussion with you to get a good handle on your track experience, as well as what you need to work on. After a couple of laps, they will know what you need to work on. But your point is a very good one. . Mark, and instructor has no business racing around the track in your car. When he is driving, there is a reason he is doing so. That is to show you (in practice), the concept he is/will be trying to impart to you. It is easier for a student to understand what/why the instructor is saying, after he has seen it done. If I were to find out that an instructor has taken a student out in their car, and needlessly pushed it too hard...there would be an issue to be addressed. Go out and have a great time. Drive within yourself, and your abilities. Focus on learning and becoming part of your car. Listen and feel what it is saying to you. You will be amazed at how much information will be imparted to you. | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 609 Registered: 3-2002 |
Jay, I've got the Bieffe also. Very comfy. In a closed car, I like to wear a dark visor, which gives the option of clear or shaded (up or down). | ||
| Jack (Gilles27)
Member Username: Gilles27 Post Number: 608 Registered: 3-2002 |
Mark, it's hard to beat fun on the track, but be careful not to over-run your 550, either. A friend of mine tracked his and didn't allow enough cooling time between sessions. He ended up replacing all four corners of brakes, which wasn't cheap. His next outing was at Road America where a suspension component broke under cornering, throwing him off and causing quite a bit of damage. Have fun, but listen to the car, also. | ||
| Todd Chen (Tec)
Junior Member Username: Tec Post Number: 56 Registered: 2-2002 |
I love my full face Simpson Voyager. Originally was planning on getting the Bieffe but it doesn't fit my melon. I usually run visor up unless the wind is bothering my eyes. | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 761 Registered: 10-2001 |
Just to keep this going, what kind of helmets do you guys prefer? I have a full faced bieffe Predator helmet with the clear visor. Are you guys running with open faced or full faced? and with the visor up or down? | ||
| David Burch (Merlyn)
New member Username: Merlyn Post Number: 25 Registered: 8-2002 |
Randy, good point, but it's much better to pee before going out. hehehe, Trust me on that one | ||
| Mark Freeman (Mrpc12)
Junior Member Username: Mrpc12 Post Number: 110 Registered: 11-2001 |
Thanks everyone for the great advice. I'll post pics and maybe even some video after the event. Now I'll have to go to work on my boss for the 2 days off. I've already got the wife's approval. It's going to cost me a fortune to keep her busy at the Spa while I'm racing. | ||
| Randy (Schatten)
Member Username: Schatten Post Number: 460 Registered: 4-2001 |
To add to Martin's suggestion on fatigue - you should always be drinking water - yes, even if its cold outside. You should drink water when you are in the pits, and you'll go out and drive for 20-30 minutes and hopefully need to pee when you return to the pits. That's the way to do it - or else, your mind will not work. | ||
| Mark Freeman (Mrpc12)
Junior Member Username: Mrpc12 Post Number: 109 Registered: 11-2001 |
David: There were 2 Radical's out there last week. Those cars are so much faster than anything else on the track. They weigh 1100 pounds and have 205 horsepower. Very experienced drivers and they know how to drive with the slower traffic (Z06's, Vipers, Porsche, etc.) | ||
| David Burch (Merlyn)
New member Username: Merlyn Post Number: 24 Registered: 8-2002 |
Mark, looks like fun, I'm going to call my racing buddy and see if he wants to go with me. He has a Vanquish, I have a 355F1. Do they allow open wheel cars Like a Brabham BT29 FB? | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3262 Registered: 5-2001 |
Mark, this has been a fantastic post. Have fun out there and know the limits. One more bit of advise: Same as in skiing make sure to see your own signs of fatigue. A friend of mine crashed his Mondial last month on the track due to fatigue. Loss of concentration for one moment can have bad consequences. Hope you have tons of fun. Keepo us posted with pictures and your experience. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 796 Registered: 6-2001 |
Mark: It looks like you're going to have some fun. By the way, my best time on the new track is a 1:40 (they don't use the standard turn 11, but shorten up the track by making us turn about 100' sooner). We ran a 4 hour endurance race in October there, and I couldn't not run, even though I'm way over the hill. Let me know how it goes. Art | ||
| Mark Freeman (Mrpc12)
Junior Member Username: Mrpc12 Post Number: 108 Registered: 11-2001 |
It's Trac Quest. www.tracquest.com | ||
| David Burch (Merlyn)
New member Username: Merlyn Post Number: 23 Registered: 8-2002 |
A word about instructors. Be sure you explain to the instructor just what you want to learn. I've had quite a few golf pros give me lessons, they all wanted me to swing like Tiger, well I'm 69, and it ain't never gonna happen. I finally got a guy who understood this and he really helped me just keep it on the fairway. The same thing applies in driving. You want a guy who will keep you on the fairway. If your instructor even mentions trail braking, tell him you're not ever going to be a pro. That's not what he should be there for. I've been an instructor at every FCA event I've attended, The main problem I saw is people trying too hard, and sensory overload. Just be cool, smooth, and enjoy Sears Point. BTW, who's putting on the event? | ||
| Mark Freeman (Mrpc12)
Junior Member Username: Mrpc12 Post Number: 107 Registered: 11-2001 |
Sure, I understand. That's why I'm asking all the questions and getting advice. I really can't afford to repair any major damage to my car and I know my insurance won't cover it. On the other hand my wife thinks I should use the Ferrari on the track because we own it while the Porsche has a loan against it. | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member Username: Benjet Post Number: 892 Registered: 1-2001 |
Mark, The reason I bring this up is that I see many of the local marque based club putting on "DE" (drviers ed) events, where they THINK that they will be covered, where not everyone has the means to put it all back together (when/if something goes wrong), they just splurged on the car, no $ leftover for disasters. I'm sure you get the picture. Not suggesting you or anyone else reading this would fall into that category, but some still could use a word of warning. ;) -Ben | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1845 Registered: 9-2001 |
can you can buy track day insurance? or is it cost prohibitive? | ||
| Mark Freeman (Mrpc12)
Junior Member Username: Mrpc12 Post Number: 106 Registered: 11-2001 |
Hi Ben. Yes, I think you are right and either way I would never tell my insurance company that I take my cars to the track. If something happens I would fix it on my nickle. I did overhear one other driver last weekend talk about track insurance and that he was covered if the event was not timed. Perhaps it's an additional policy he bought. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 302 Registered: 8-2001 |
You will never stop learning if you constantly take out instructors with you and try new things. Even at my home track where I have done 50+ track events and raced extensively I still ask instructors to go out with me. Every now and then someone shows me something different or uncovers a bad habit. Same goes at other tracks I race/track on. At Watkins Glen, Matt changed one gear shift between turns 1 and 2 and this gained me nearly 2 seconds per lap and nearly 8 mph more on the back straight. Some of the other things he showed me in his car will take a great deal more work on my part and confidence but the point is you won't learn unless you know what you are doing wrong in the first place. It similar to doctors who are ill. Very rarely do they try and diagnose themselves. They always see another doctor. Even the best instructors and racers can learn from another instructor/racer. I am sure Matt can tell you about his ride with David Murray (factory BMW and Porsche racer) and I sure learned something being driven around by 2 time Speedvision Champ Mike Galati. Jon | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member Username: Benjet Post Number: 891 Registered: 1-2001 |
While I have ZERO car track experience (I have been in a few karts). I wanted to mention that you should check and verify that your street insurance will cover you on the track. The old school of thought was that if there was no clock (no racing) then you were ok - I don't think that is still the correct line of thinking. Many current (street) car ins policies in CA now have a new clause (something to the effect of): "policy does not provide liability coverage for bodily injury or propery damage arising out of the participation in any racing or speed contest OR WHEN USING THE INSURED VEHICLE AT A TRACK OR COURSE DESIGNED FOR RACING" Art I know you can clarify this, but have to agree don't race anything you can't afford to lose (and don't expect your ins to come running with $ in hand). -Ben | ||
| Mark Freeman (Mrpc12)
Junior Member Username: Mrpc12 Post Number: 105 Registered: 11-2001 |
Good points, Dave. I'm getting jazzed about taking the 550 out now. Although I will be somewhat reluctant to let someone else drive my car but I suppose it's a good trade for the "free" instruction. | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 554 Registered: 1-2002 |
I agree with all posts here so far. In May of 2001, I took my 550 on track during the FCA National Meet in the Dallas/Ft. Worth area. This was my first time ever on track in ANY car. My first session, I was paired with an instructor named Rolan Linder, a LeMans winner & a great driver. He drove my car, and then gave a few pointers so I wouldn't kill anyone else out there...and then I was on my own (the event was short on instructors, so Roland had to move on to another novice, unfortunately). Well, I had fun...although in the 3 days on track, I spun twice--no harm done--due to (1) too much braking in a downhill off-camber turn; and (2) my foot slipping off the gas pedal while doing a very aggressive heel & toe downshift. Since then, I have done quite a few more events, with FCA, Porsche Club, BMW Club, and an independent group called the Drivers Edge. The point I want to make is that I secifically looked for events where the # of instructors is roughly equal to the number of drivers in the largest run group. Now, I have long-ago soloed, and have done TWS in 1:56 in my 550 Maranello & 2:04 in my badly-understeering (long story; hit a pothole on the way to the track) 240 HP M3...but EVERY CHANCE I GET, I ask to go out with an instructor! Every lap with an instructor is an opportunity to improve even more than running solo, and the extra weight (I look for short, thin instructors ) is more than offset by the potential to become a better & better driver. My final thought: get your 550 out there ASAP. I don't know Sears Point, but I do know that there is no time like the present to drive your 550 on track. It is a beautifully balanced, stinking-fast track car...but it is heavy, and needs a lot of brake input. I drive with the ASR turned off now, but have it on when the track is wet. All IMO of course. Good luck to you!! | ||
| Mark Freeman (Mrpc12)
Junior Member Username: Mrpc12 Post Number: 104 Registered: 11-2001 |
Martin: I had an instructor with me in the car at Buttonwillow the first day. The tracquest club that I was running with is great in that regard. If you are new or just new to the track then they provide an instructor for you until you and the instructor agree that one is no longer necessary. I've also gone to a one day learning event at Willow Springs with Fast Lane Racing school. And I've done the 2 day Porsche Driving Experience at Road Atlanta so I'm definitely taking advantage of whatever instruction I can get. Always. different cars and tracks though. And they keep the PSM On at the Porsche school. In fact they told me that the school would not be possible to run without it. (too many mishaps with rookie drivers I suppose). | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 301 Registered: 8-2001 |
In total agreement with Matt. However, that being said some folks who go to one or two track events per year aren't as concerned with going faster or learning a whole lot. They just want to be able to enjoy their F car ride on a track without worrying about tickets. that's perfectly fine. I have a friend who owns a 308 and he will flat out tell you he just likes driving the car on the track once in a while. He will learn a few things now and then but he is not interested in going faster because he fears that this will eventually lead to going too fast. I completely respect his positon. As for ASR, PSM, and all that other neat stuff I agree with Matt if you want to learn those things just get in the way. The best traction control device ever invented is your right and left foot. I learned to drive without any of these devices (mid 80's BMW and mid 90's F car). The one time I drove a friend's Corvette C5 at the track I nearly wrecked the darn thing. We were motoring through a turn and the power suddenly cut off, I feared that the engine had a problem or something and lifted off the accelerator and spun. I had never driven a car at the track with traction control. Art, you and I are both aware that racing is very different than track events. At track events people slowly learn things and try to be as safe as possible. This means quantam leaps in lap times rarely happen. I cut about 2 seconds per lap off my times in my Challenge car at my home track each year until I started racing, then I cut nealry 6 seconds in one year. My one year in Spec Racing I learned more about driving fast and at the limit than in the previous five years at track events. Why? Simple, at races nearly everyone is fast and the class I race in is a Spec class so everyone has very similar equipment and you find out right away where people are faster and you can't go to your neighborhood F car dealer and say give me more power. It's quite embarrassing to be at a spectator event and get lapped by the leader or have two cars go by you on the straight not because they have more power, but because they have more skill. I wrecked twice this year alone, and spun off at least a dozen times in the Spec Racer, something I would never allow in the F car at a track event. My opinion is that if you don't wreck or spin much when racing you will be relegated to the back of the grid for a long time. At a track event I rarely push over the edge unless there might be a faster driver in front or it's at my home track. At race weekends I push every lap at or over the limit to learn. Of course crash damage costs also play a part. My worst crash this year in the SR was $2200 and included significant fiberglass repair and a right rear suspension. Cost on the F car would have been 50K. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3261 Registered: 5-2001 |
Another thing that I have learned driving track. If you go at an FOC or FCA event, there is usually a driving school connected to the club, where for a few bucks you can get an instructor with you in the car. If you are NE you have a chance to have Matt ride with you. Take advantage of that. Nothing wrong with having an instructor in the car. It saves you 10 laps till you have figured out the track yourself. Profit from somebody else's experience. It is usually just a few bucks more and they can show you the tricks of each track. Don't know if you have already, butz driving schools and if it is just for a day, will help you understand a track and the car much better. The money is well spend if you enjoy track time and want to continue doing it. I have seen a guy with a 512TR in front of me a few weeks ago and he missed every Apex, turn in point, brake point and was therefore all over the road. He should have been able to pull away from me easy but because he was so off the line I was able to easily pass him and pull away. Really sad and scary to see. A few laps with an instructor would have helped the guy. When you drive and get everything right and just clip the Apex and have the right line for just one lap, that one lap feels as gratifying as an orgasmn. Unfortunately that is when you get hooked! | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 795 Registered: 6-2001 |
Matt: Are you telling that after all the years I was racing that I shouldn't have crashed? Yo may be right, but something got in the way of that, made my right hand turn the throttle on when I shouldn't have, and I crashed. May have had something to do with not wanting to be behind anyone? Seriously, there is a difference between learning and racing. However, •••• happens and people do go off the track and crash, best solution for a new driver is an instructor, or a car that isn't his, or is cheap enough that its a throw away if you make a mistake. An old racing addage: Don't put anything on the grid that you won't throw away (including yourself). Art | ||
| David Burch (Merlyn)
New member Username: Merlyn Post Number: 22 Registered: 8-2002 |
I have raced numerous times at Sears. The new track is much safer than it used to be. The only place you might have a problem with the 550 is the new turn one, as it is narrower. If you drive sensibly the rest of the track is straight foreword. I've driven it several times with my 355F1, no problems. Mainly I drive a race car so it's a little different proposition. I would use sport mode, but turn off other aids, that way you get the most feedback. Sears is a great track, with lots of nuances. You should enjoy it. | ||
| Mark Freeman (Mrpc12)
Junior Member Username: Mrpc12 Post Number: 103 Registered: 11-2001 |
Matt, Thanks for the info. I think I agree with your points. I was caught up in being able to go fast quickly and passing Vipers rather than really improving my driving skills. Next time I'll try to turn off PSM and see what I can learn from it. | ||
| Mark Freeman (Mrpc12)
Junior Member Username: Mrpc12 Post Number: 102 Registered: 11-2001 |
Thanks, Art. That is what I had heard from a few people. If the track is wet then I'll just be using the 996TT with all wheel drive. I'm thinking if I go into this with the goals of having a good time and learning to drive my car better then I'll be OK. But my number one goal will be to NOT crash. | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Junior Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 243 Registered: 3-2001 |
You raise several good points. I have never been to Sears Point, but there should be no reason to fear the armco/walls. I say this, because you SHOULD not be driving over your head, which would put you in a position to greet a hard immovable object. I have spent several years as an instructor with all different clubs. I NEVER allow a driver to use any type of stability management system while learning to drive on a racetrack. This TAKES OUT most all the INPUTS/FEEDBACK you are trying to understand. Your desire to pass people is a very common issue with someone who is low on the learning curve. Passing people has NOTHING to do with learning how to drive. Going fast has NOTHING to do with learning how to drive. Learning how to drive a car on a racetrack has many components. These are several of them. You must understand that you are simply another component of the machine. You are the central processing unit of the car. You take all the inputs the car is imparting to you, decipher what they mean, and then simply direct/allow/guide/handle the car in the manner which will allow it to most safely and effectivly accomplish what you need it to accomplish. Using any type of PSM will ABOLISH that feedback, which is the CENTRAL INFORMATION POINT. Going off the track SHOULD NOT happen, barring mechanical breakdown. If you go off the track, you are out of control. The only times I go off the track is when I am trying a new technique, or doing something I shouldn't be doing. As this is VERY serious business, I can tell you that I do not do things I shouldn't, too often. I know I have rambled, but these are the main points I wanted to make. Be patient and dont try to skip steps on the learning curve. Become one with your car so you can understand, at all times, what it is telling you. Leave the PSM or like devices OFF, so you can 'hear' your car. DO NOT WORRY ABOUT GOING FAST, BEING FASTER, AND PASSING PEOPLE. You will go faster, as you learn, without even knowing that your speeds are higher. Have a GREAT time at the track!! | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 794 Registered: 6-2001 |
Mark: As tracks go, Buttonwillow is a Green or Blue. Sears is a double black. There is nothing wrong with taking your cars to Sears, but be aware, that unlike, Buttonwillow, where an off course excursion is probably not a big deal, if you screw up at sears in 2, 4, 9, or 11, you will have crash damage, maybe total the car. I would still go to Sears, but perhaps take an intstructor, and be very careful. As someone who has crashed in turns 2, 7, 8, 9 and 11 at Sears Point I do speak from some experience (motorcycles, not cars). I would also be concerned that there could be runoff, if it has rained recently. Just be careful at Sears. Art | ||
| James Napolis (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 93 Registered: 10-2002 |
The systems on the FI cars are only used to launch the car. Traction control is illegal in FI. | ||
| Mark Freeman (Mrpc12)
Junior Member Username: Mrpc12 Post Number: 101 Registered: 11-2001 |
Thanks for the comments so far guys. I think the reason I was asking about ASR off is that in my opinion it is a much more intrusive system on the Ferrari than the PSM on the Porsche. I think if I kept the ASR on that it might be invoked too easily and when it does come on it severely cuts the throttle. But I suppose it doesn't have to be that digital for me. I could start out taking it quite easily and really concentrate on driving the track correctly with it turned on at first and see how it goes. However, it'll be hard to swallow if I have to let spec Miata's pass me | ||
| Raleigh Smith (288gto)
New member Username: 288gto Post Number: 19 Registered: 10-2002 |
I am not a Fcar owner so I might not have the right opion, but I know a little about Fcars and Porsches and racing. Everything I have heard says to take your 550 to the track. It was a great performer at the ALMS races and will proably be good in street form as well, but as far as turning the ASR off, I think that is kind of risky. 85-90 more hp may make all the difference from the 996TT and you said yourself that the PSM was going off quite a bit. The 485 ponies in the 550 without any ASR is scarey when it is $150-$200k to replace. Also look at it from a technology standpoint. Technology is good. ASR does make it easier to drive a more powerful car. Ferrari puts it on their F1 cars, so I don't see any reason not to use it yourself unless you just want to see what the car can take. If you go in with doubt mistakes will manifest themselves, so if you drive your 550 without the ASR on go in confident and know your limits as a driver. I hope I have been of some help. Raleigh | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3258 Registered: 5-2001 |
MArk, my comment comes from somebody much less qualified than Matt and Jon and William and others, yet I want to tell you my experience and I do not have Traction Control: I believe when you go on the track you want to drive as good as you possible can. Take the corner right, make your turn in point refined and handle the car close to the limit but not over. Using traction control, as you said, hides mistakes but saves your a*s. If you go to a track to drive as fast as you possibly can, traction control ON, if you drive the track to best possible drive the track, traction control OFF, in that case you will have people passing you, so what. In Homestead a few weeks back I gladly let the VIPER pass me on the straights, atfer all they have much more HP, but it was gratifying to catch them back in the corners and be right on their behind before they would pull away on the straight again. Just my 2c and rally not from a pro! BTW when I am talking traction control, I am talking ASR. | ||
| Mark Freeman (Mrpc12)
Junior Member Username: Mrpc12 Post Number: 100 Registered: 11-2001 |
I'm looking for opinions on this. I know I'll get a few wise acre comments but hopefully, at least a few worthy nuggets. Here goes..... I've been to a few untimed track events and done them in a few different cars. I would still consider my skill level to be at a very novice level. Last weekend I took my stock 996TT to Buttonwillow and had a blast. The car is so fast and easy to drive (with PSM [Porsche Stability Management] and Tiptronic) that by the second day I was able to pass most other cars except for a few really experienced drivers. I know that the PSM was really masking my mistakes (and saving my butt) becasue I saw the yellow light flashing quite a bit at various times and difficult portions of the track. I really wished I has taken my 550 too though. But the track was quite a distance from my home so I could only drive one car. So now the questions... There is another track event in December at Sears Point (fairly close to my home) and I am thinking about taking my Porsche on the first day to learn the track and then the 550 on the second day. Only if it's a dry track though. What do you think? What about driving the 550 with ASR off for a relatively unskilled driver? Also, I've heard conflicting reports about Sears Point. Like walls pretty close to some corners and a more difficult track. I can't afford to repair the car if I crash it. What do people think? |