| Author | Message | ||
| V.Z. (Ama328)
New member Username: Ama328 Post Number: 40 Registered: 11-2002 |
David Jones - i wasn't trying to push anyone into sumpin' they don't/can't do, i was just offering up an alternative to anyone who's got the interest/incentive, but maybe not all of the $$. I agree, that if you're making $150/hr(wish i was nailing that much  ) then there is a cost/benefit analysis to run...but, with shop rates probably at least $50-75/hour, and the before tax amount one has to earn to pay for that, there's some room for initiative... And lastly(!), for those who don't wanna lift a hammer or screwdriver, that's ok, too, just need to take that into account when planning $$ on buying/maintaining. | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
Junior Member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 56 Registered: 11-2002 |
VZ, Luckily I am not talking personally with my three exceptions but there are some people I know that are "hammer yes, screwdriver no (or paintbrush no). Not sure anyone can help those guys. To do brakes or an exhaust is no biggie for most, maybe even the hammer guys, but to equate that to an engine pull and major is apples and oranges. Frankly though, I guess I left out a fourth exception: What if I don't want to? What if I don't want the liability that the valves are done right? That exists too. I think I am pretty good mechanically but I don't think I want to rebuild a flat 12 - due to time and confidence mainly. But isn't that the same as having the kid at Sunoco give it a crack? Maybe point five: What does it do to value if you tell your buyer that "oh, I did all the maintenance myself so there are no stamps in my book". Bottom line is each potential owner or owner needs to have some plan to keep it running well and preserve the value of the machine. Do it yourself if you want, go to an independent or to an FNA dealer. But don't forget it needs done. Just food for thought... Will | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 460 Registered: 4-2001 |
V.Z. this my show my age a bit, but when I was in high school they offered automotive shop classes as well as things like wood and metal shop. I took auto shop as well as automotive electric class. I even still have the dwell/tach meter that I built for class. So I learned about auto maintenance early on, and perform the majority of my own work on the Ferrari, and all my vehicles when my schedule permits. But sometimes it's more economical to have a shop do the work than to do it yourself depending on tools and time. For example lets say that you earn $150.00 an hour, and need to perform an engine out that will take all day. The shop charges $75.00 an hour labor. If you were to spend all day doing it yourself, you would loose $1200.00 income. But if you had the shop do it you would still pocket $600.00 income for the day... I don't know about you, but for me time is money. I also hate to burst any bubbles, but Ferrari's are expensive to own even if you do the maintance yourself. I have seen more than my share of Ferrari's that were leaking oil, had exhaust systems falling apart, and were in need of major maintance, because when the owners bought them they thought they could afford them, but then found out they couldn't, drove them into the ground and then put them up for sale. Labor is realitivly inexpensive, compaired to parts prices, trust me. By the way, the "cam belt swap" as you put it, is not that difficult if you have experience with it, but if you have never done a Ferrari before it's best to have a helper, or guide if you will, that has done this before. There was a 308 here in town that would have been worth around $25k but the owner thought he could do the belt service himself... Missed it by that much! The car sold for $11k That's a very expensive mistake. | ||
| V.Z. (Ama328)
New member Username: Ama328 Post Number: 37 Registered: 11-2002 |
WMontgomery: 1) what if you are just not mechanically inclined; ====>> so what, time to learn a little sumpin'...seriously, while i'm no great mechanic, i often think 'non-inclination' can be gotten around by breaking the job down into manageable chunks, having the RIGHT tools(makes all the diff), and a bit of curiousity. For example, instead of thinking "i'm gonna swap cam belts and i don't know squat about it", start with: * how are cylinders numbered(not as obvious as on a straight 6, right?). * how to find flywheel & which direction do i turn it to line up timing marks. Break it down...day 1 task might be to take off right rear wheel & fenderwell(308/328), then STOP and assess next step. May take a few weekends, but so what? Go slow, go right. 2) just don't have the time to learn and do ====>> time is $$, baby, where do you want your $$ to go? Ok, if a service costs $3000, for example, at 30% tax bracket, you've gotta earn upwards of $4500 to pay someone else. So, pay yourself instead. Spend 30-60 minutes a couple of nites during the week, spend 2-4 hrs on weekend. Keep chislin' away. If you REALLY have NO time to devote to what interests you, you're probably too booked up on the treadmill of life and oughta reevaluate. 3) in the event of catastophic failure you still need mucho dinero. ====>> damn right, **** happens. If you live your life that way, you're gonna have problemos gettin' outa bed in the morning. Best way to avoid cato' failure is to have the machinery working properly in the first place. On the other hand, if i'd gotten to the point where i'd serviced the car a lot and knew the innards, then maybe doing a valve job wouldn't seem as intimidating as usual. Parts may cost some $$, but it seems that labor is often the killer on cost containment here. Get creative - instead of spending $500 for plug wire set, reuse the outer sleeves, buy some quality wire(or have some made up for you), and do it yourself. This chatboard has LOTS of sources/references, just gotta look. Ok, i'm not trying to turn everyone into Ed Gault here, just pointing out alternatives to maintenance co$t issue. I find it interesting that the board moderator, Rob Lay, is, if memory of other threads serves me, taking engine courses at a local community college in DFW. I knew a guy who did something like that many years ago, he said one class he took consisted of bringing in your car or project and just working on that the entire semester. Teacher helped out, everyone in class saw what everyone else was working on, and some decent learning took place. Been thinkin' about doing that myself, if i could ONLY find the time! One thing i'd eventually like to do is assemble a really in depth guide(with pics, etc) on how to do some of the intimidating tasks, such as cam belt swap. I just can't believe it would be THAT difficult, is more a matter of having good doc, good tools, thinking it thru, and some time. | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 457 Registered: 4-2001 |
Ben, a 328 is a great car... while I think the GTB's look better that the GTS's, the GTS would be perfect in California, my old stomping grounds.. | ||
| Dennis Rumshinsky (Drumshinsky)
New member Username: Drumshinsky Post Number: 1 Registered: 9-2002 |
I have been lurking on this Board for a while, I am 32 own my own buisness and have a 99 VW Golf as a get around car and a 69 Camaro SS that was my first car :-) still have her also a 1971 Pantera GT5S conv . I have been thinking of a F car for a while now but the maint is the thing that is putting me off.But i might take the plunge if ic the right car but the Pantera will have to go in that case :-(. | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
Junior Member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 54 Registered: 11-2002 |
VZ, You have a good thought process going there. Three glitches as I see it though: 1) what if you are just not mechanically inclined; 2) just don't have the time to learn and do; and, finally, 3) in the event of catastophic failure you still need mucho dinero. If you have access to all of the above I'd say go for it if you can buy the car and not make a bank rich in the meantime. The interest rates on old used cars and the rule of 78's will eat you alive. Now a home equity loan may be the way around that. Will | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Junior Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 108 Registered: 6-2002 |
Hey Dave, this is going off-topic fast, but: The drop-shadows and transparency in every window in OSX take up gfx hardware resources (that I want back for actual use Oh, by 12/bit/component, I meant 12-bits in a colour component (ie RGBA, 12/12/12/12 4096 possible values for each.) Useful for displaying the full dynamic range of film, or from an IR camera. No analouge <shudder> gear here, all SDI or HD-SDI, or FibreExtreme (exotic 2.5Gbit/sec fiber serial interface used largely in military flight-simulators. We use it for very custom-built camera systems in stabalised gimbals.) Are you doing real uncompressed RGB HD on the g4 yet? I was under the impression that you still can't stick enough I/O into the box to get that to happen (eg: yuv only). Let's make this F-car related. I just started checking 328 prices on Ebay... they're probally $10k below what I remenber, and getting VERY tempting! My dream may come true soon... very soon.... Best! Ben. | ||
| V.Z. (Ama328)
New member Username: Ama328 Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2002 |
No one has explored in this thread the idea of doing some/most/all maintenance by themselves. One of the biggest benefits i see for this chatboard is that one can FINALLY get some decent info on specs/how to on fixing these babies. Forget $x,xxx for belt changes, poke around a bit here and get the info to do it yourself. I'm just starting to do a setup on a 3 car garage in the house i recently purchased(no garage showroom here, mainly just gonna go functional with a car lift, lighting, etc.) and i'm really looking forward to being able to putter on my car instead of praying i can find a mechanic who won't rip me off and who just *might* know enuf not to trash the car. 70s-80s Fcars are pretty much all mechanical, and it's become apparent to me over the years that with some time/effort, just about anybody can learn a lot about a topic(housebuilding, landscaping, yes, even auto repair). So, take the $x,xxx for that belt change/service, stuff it into some correct tools and a place to tinker, and all of a sudden i don't see too much wrong with buying a suitable Fcar. I do agree that you shouldn't go overboard getting into one, but i don't know that maintenance should be a show stopper here. For things in which i'm really interested(cars, saxophones), i usually buy for the long term, and when you look at it long term, the $$ don't have to get you down. Plus, you'll get to know the car bolt for bolt, in addition to having a neat set of wheels... And, lastly, you don't need a 3 car garage to do this stuff...have neighbor across the street who rebuilds motors, suspension, etc. in driveway and entry way into his small, cramped, filled to brim garage. | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Junior Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 61 Registered: 10-2002 |
Just to share some experience. When I was at law school, I pulled in everything that I had, and with the assistance of my family got myself a second-hand Jensen Interceptor. 7.2 litres of engine. Superb ride. I loved it. Nothing could satiate me more. Next thing that soon happened? The torque convertor went wrong. I took the car up to the factory itself to have it fixed. They put in a new one. What else? And then the next thing? When I had to back the car out of the garage from a cold start in the morning, it stalled all the time. Gas always flooded the chambers because of the cold start choke. And then the next thing? When I put on the brakes, a bumpy feedback got transmitted back through the brake pedal. Strange sediments apparently formed on the brake discs. And then the next thing? After a cold start in the morning and cruising down hill, by the time you got to the bottom of the hill, the engine suddenly stalled, and you realised that you had just lost your power steering and servo braking without any warning. And then the next thing? When I was sitting in a traffic jam, the engine's temperature sensor failed to function. The temperature gauge shot up in no time at all. And you had to sit dead in the car during rush hour traffic to wait for mechanical assistance. In those days, there was no mobile phone to call for instant help. And then the next thing? When the car was parked outside the student's hostel overnight, an idiot ran into it. I never got to find out who. So every time I got into the car, I dreaded about what was going to happen next. I was only a student then. I was worried sick about the car. From then on, and for the many years that afterwards came, I would only buy an exotic car if I could afford to pay for it in cash, and knowing that I could still at least survive to see another day, if the car were to be totally written off tomorrow. And if the car should need a new engine? Put in a new engine. It is only then that you can rest in comfort and start real enjoyment of the ownership of the car. Otherwise it will simply be a nightmare for you, and might even wreck your normal life. So my humble advice? If you have to struggle that hard for it, DON'T !!! Rather, let the thought of ultimately getting a decent Ferrari become your everlasting aim and your constant motivation. You will get there one day. Even if you do not, you cannot go too far wrong with that attitude in life. If your uncle happens to own a garage, or you happen to be a professional mechanic, then of course it is a different story altogether. Otherwise, you just have to make sure that you have the means of getting the car properly fixed without sacrificing everything else. | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 452 Registered: 4-2001 |
Ben, I'm not sure what you mean by " you can't turn off the OS's *drop shadows* "... But your right I just have lowly 10-bit card on the Mac, but with the money I saved I do drive a Ferrari Neat thing about the Mac is you can composite effects very inexpensively with combustion, and then import into Inferno on the SGI for finishing. Of course I'm sure you already know if your working on titles or effects for film then the 10-bit, 12-bit input /output card issue matters not.... Component analog video? I think I stacked the old analog component decks in the same corner with the last of the old SGI stuff... Most of the video decks we have now are SDI interface, D-5, digibeta & HDCam, although if I remember right our old D-1 deck has a parallel digital interface that we had to run a converter for, or maybe that was one of the old composite D-2 decks. I loose track of crap like that... Hey who knows, you may have bought some of my old SGI stuff... sold a ton of it on ebay... As a matter of fact I think we still have an Octane and an 02 if your interested... But I honestly think you'd have more fun if you bought a Ferrari instead. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Junior Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 107 Registered: 6-2002 |
Dave- Have 4 G4s in house, they're nice, but no SGI <even>) I mean, you can't turn off the OS's *drop shadows* that ain't profesional. I also need the realtime, film-res power of the SGI running IFX Piranha (and media illusion, cineon, etc. Piranha is Hardware accelerated though.). Nothing else comes close, even years after it's manufactuer. In addition to effects, we do a lot of realtime video work in the HD visuilization market (think airborne survailance, etc.) 12-bit/component dosen't yet exist in the non-SGI world. It's pretty profitable, and while it's been around a while, it's STILL the best. I've got 8 procs and 8 gig of RAM in mine, works out nice. Our Octanes are showing their age, but they're still fast as all hell. I've kept costs down by buying used SGI kit, usually just off lease. Best! Ben. | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 836 Registered: 6-2001 |
WMontgomery: I disagree about what caused the slow down for the airplane manufacturers: their pricing system put their products out of reach for many purchasers, and then they had to cover their insurance with 1/10 of their expected production, but they were covering their entire fleet, drove the cost of insurance up per plane to higher than affordable levels. Cessna, being the cheverolet of planes had the problem, while Beech, being the Cadillac or Ferrari of planes was able to survive, because their buyers weren't so price sensitive. As to the current situation, Cessna's 206 with the IO540 are all being grounded because they can't see to put a decent crankshaft in them. I think that the manufacturers created their own problems, and used the insurance issue to get relief that no other manufacturer gets in the US, except for gun manufacturers. Art | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 835 Registered: 6-2001 |
Frank: You forgot that Nebula also needed to graduate from Harvard, Yale, etc. for that signing bonus to amount to anything. Then he has to produce, something that those Ivy League schools sometimes don't teach their law school grads. Art Art | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1579 Registered: 9-2001 |
Nebula, not to burst your bubble but, unless you are Law Review AND land a job with a major firm, don't expect enough of a signing bonus to buy much more than a Mondial. The lawyer market is a little soft right now. I know my firm can hire a 3 year lawyer for less than we can hire a 3 year secretary. | ||
| Steve Hanis (Steve_hanis)
New member Username: Steve_hanis Post Number: 33 Registered: 5-2002 |
Another non owner here. I would like to have 512 TR someday. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3662 Registered: 2-2001 |
Hey Nebula, Look at this way. Due to the state of the economy there are a lot of guys who are now "poor ass people" because of a Ferrari owning them and living on plastic. | ||
| Michael Davidson (Cabrio_fan)
New member Username: Cabrio_fan Post Number: 17 Registered: 3-2002 |
Here's an interesting spin- to all those college students posting on this thread. I'm not an F-car owner yet. I've worked my way up in IT and now make six figures -- with my high school degree and three college courses. I was trained in my IT field in the military (whoo-hoo, go Air Force!) and after my years of enlisted service, went right into some nice paying positions in the private sector. Have home (not paid off yet), two cars: 99 Honda Odyssey paid for, 2000 Chevy Silverado 2500 pickup (almost paid for), 2000 Tahoe 5th wheel RV (not paid for but interest is tax deductible as 2nd home). I'm ready to buy my Ferrari Mondial Cabriolet! Red with black top, thank you. Now, the question: should I start looking at my Ferrari ~or~ go back to school and get that college degree????? Hmmmmmm... I'm doing quite well (financially) without it thank you. Oh, and if you're wondering - 32 years old, married, two kids with no more planned. Any thoughts? Mike | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
Junior Member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 51 Registered: 11-2002 |
Relative to airplane parts - since lives depend on many of them (you can't coast off the road for all intents and purposes when a fuel pump fails) they have a long list of pedigree papers that go with them to ensure integrity. Liabilty for designs that existed when you acquired an aircraft manufacturer is what killed the general aviation/private plane industry in the 70's. As the acquirer you were held liable for a design flaw that you had nothing to do with 20 years prior and probably could never have realistically caught when you acquired the company and continued production of the craft. The only way to protect yourself was to either stop production or increase your sell price to include potential litigation costs. Cessna ceased production of singles for a long time while Beech continued without interuption (although their prices went sky high). I believe the feds finally exempted designs over twenty five years old and the Cessna started punching out 172's again. Will (ex-pilot) | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
New member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 50 Registered: 11-2002 |
If you have your financial life squared away such that you meet all of your perceived NEEDS: housing/maintenance/ins/improvements, transportation/maint/ins, clothing, food, vacations, entertainment, gifts, school, saving for retirement, saving for other "needed" things (new house, baby), saving for your kid's education, established the suggested emergency cash fund AND after all of that you have discretionary income that equates to insurance, payments if not purchased outright, yearly maintenance, an annual maintenance "fund", upgrades - we all keep looking for things to make our cars a little nicer/better/faster - covers, floor mats, refinishing pieces/parts/wheels, consumables - tires, clutch, new top, etc, etc. and aren't going to go crazy if you someday have to sell it quickly and get only wholesale from a dealer or a depreciated retail at best - then you can probably afford it. On the other hand, if you are dipping into the NEEDS funds or puutig off NEEDS things (a vacation is the easiest to sacrifice as you'll think the car will be a daily vacation (hah)) for a car to drive a few days a year, no matter how good it makes you feel, then you are probably looking for trouble down the road and you should think really hard. Perhaps a sporty and not so maintenance intensive, expensive overall, and unreliable a car as an older F that can be your daily driver and fun to drive may be a nice way to pass the time while you save the cash, get promoted, learn more and earn more, get a big "need" out of the way, etc. so that you can then easily afford the Ferrari you want. Being financially stressed over a car as mentioned earlier is a great way to not enjoy the car, Ferrari or not. Taking a drive on a Saturday and not being able to have a nice lunch or whatever you enjoy is an indicator something is out of balance. God forbid you have a mechanical catastrophe as it could sit quite a bit until you can float a perhaps incredible repair bill. You will resent it big time at that point. I stretched to own something way back when. I wasn't all that happy replacing my rear tires every 5,000 miles for just under a grand. All of a sudden I looked at a road trip as to what % of rear tires it was going to cost me along with the standard costs. I like the car well enough, but at that time in my life the tires didn't cut it. I swear I could see them wear down. Finally, guys who would jeopardize their kid's education to own a Ferrari or any luxury items are missing the point. Will | ||
| John Delvac (Johndelvac)
Junior Member Username: Johndelvac Post Number: 169 Registered: 11-2001 |
Douglas - Ferrari 308/328 maint. is way cheaper than owning a boat. Especially inboard/outboards. I'd buy any Ferrari before I would subjet myself to an Evenrude Fict' or any OMC stern-drive mess. However, I do think you want to spend $40K to get a real good quatrovalve. Otherwise, $30K will buy a very well maintained carb version. The cosmetics just won't have held up as well as the QV. | ||
| Douglas A Hunt (Boxercrazy)
New member Username: Boxercrazy Post Number: 13 Registered: 11-2002 |
not exactly poverty stricken,but no,i do not posess one of enzo's creations yet... i probably could have one ,what with all the damn boats i have bought,but they are easier to maintain. my problem is service,as in no one and i mean NO ONE around here where i live is trustworthy(to me,at least)to service a car like a ferrari. so,thru this site i have learned about 30k services and other problems and their corrections. as my "handle" indicates,i am crazy about the boxers and would love to own a boxer or tr. however,i believe after all the info gleaned from this site ,that i could do a 30k on a 308gt4/308gts/gtb car and as i stated,where i live pretty much means i have to be able to do the work cause i wouldnt let NO ONE around here touch it. right now,my fundage is around 20k and i havent found the right car yet.(the ones i want seem to stray into the 29 to 35k catagory) if i keep on this site,maybe i can convince myself that i can do the 30k on a tr,looks a little more intimidating and i would have to have a much bigger garage,but i bet it would be most satisfying,to say the least. i WILL have one,just dont know exactly when or which one douglas hunt | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
Member Username: Bobd Post Number: 818 Registered: 3-2001 |
But Art, do you have to remove the engine for the 30K? | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 833 Registered: 6-2001 |
DES: Yep. Flew it to the Isle of Man in 99. If you guys think that Ferrari parts are expensive, get a plane. Whole different cost structure. Art | ||
| Joel Belser (Driver)
New member Username: Driver Post Number: 20 Registered: 9-2002 |
Unfortunately it doesn't matter what you pay for a car...expensive cars are made out of expensive parts. | ||
| Todd (Tkrefeld)
Junior Member Username: Tkrefeld Post Number: 79 Registered: 11-2001 |
Good thread. It's like a bit of obsessive behavior. Just choose your poison. Some it's cars, some Swiss watches, Italian suits, Real Estate, investments, ect. I think for my family it was people. My parents loved helping other people. Most of their spare time and money went to helping and volunteering. Over-doing it almost. When you get your mind set on something you just MUST have it. It's the way your mind works. If you obsess about something else, it will become the NEW must have.. (Think of that person you broke up with and kept obssesing about until a new one came along, old person all but forgotten instantly) Like the previous poster said, work your frigging *SS off and you can fulfill your dreams. That's the only way I have ever gotten anywhere in my life. Lot's of truth to the beater car as well. Get a beater, with low insurance costs and something you don't have to worry about and then get the Ferrari. Some of them are truly affordable, and if it will make you happy and improve your mood day to day it's WELL worth the money. Open a capsule of Prozac and you may find a F-car inside. Now, if were talking a new model that is a different story. They are expensive, you are at the mercy of other drivers, ect, ect. I used to drive a Porsche as a daily driver and it was quite stressful how carefull I had to always be. If you don't have your dreams what do you have?? I'll tell you what though, the desire to own some nice things(that is relative)is a sure way to work a little more, harder, and smarter and there is nothing wrong with that. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 69 Registered: 8-2002 |
...and you got a nice one, too, Art... is that your plane, too...? | ||
| arthur chambers (Art355)
Member Username: Art355 Post Number: 829 Registered: 6-2001 |
I used to be one of you, but I got mine a while ago. Art | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 324 Registered: 4-2002 |
Bill and the others are right. With the prices on some Ferraris so low, JUST DO IT. That is provided you dont mind getting your hands dirty, you have a little bit of mechanical ability and you have another "beater" to drive as a dailey. LEts assume you buy a late '70s 308. Sure it will cost you more in maintenance than a newer more practical car, but its not likely to depreciate if you buy it right today. Trade maintenance for depreciation. At least when you go to sell you still have an asset, that Camry in 10 years wont be worth what new tires cost.... | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 447 Registered: 4-2001 |
Ben, want a Ferrari? Loose the SGI... Mine is paperweight now... Pickup a new Mac G4 for next to nothing and add one of the many New digitizing cards that support HD, along with Final Cut Pro... That way you have HD input and output as well as editing... Then get a copy of Combustion... They just lowered the price on it... Throw in AfterEffects and you can do everything "Everything" that you could do on that tired old Irix platform with enough left over to buy 3 extra Mac G4's as a render farm and a Ferrari! Ask me how I know. | ||
| Robert McNair (Rrm)
Junior Member Username: Rrm Post Number: 164 Registered: 5-2002 |
Dave I have read The Millionare Next Door and found it informative. The 308 fits the mold of the book in the sense that they state most millionares buy used cars. Hey us car guys can justify anything! I always pay cash for my toy purchases and believe that is the best way to go,after all if you can pay it off with interest in 4 years then why can't you save up for 3 years and then pay cash? | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 313 Registered: 1-2002 |
Here are some random thoughts...... A lot of 308's are being bought now by people who can't afford to maintain them well, thus, lots of ratty examples on the market. For you twenty somethings dreaming away but still broke, buy the book The Millionaire Next Door for helpful, real world tips on getting ahead, even with modest incomes. However, buying expensive cars is not part of their formula, at least at first. Ferraris and other toys are an indulgence. Buying them is not good for your family's financial health. Therefore, borrowing all that a bank will let you have in order to get one is a very bad idea. Be realistic on the true costs of ownership. Even if you pay cash, there is lost income on the amount spent. Measure the cost of the car not in dollars, but as a percentage of your net worth, or how long will you have to work (after taxes) to pay for one. I was once "house poor" and it was a bummer. Being "car poor" would be even worse. Dave | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2890 Registered: 12-2000 |
I don't see how anyone CAN'T afford to have a Ferrari. No or little (late model) depreciation, years it adds to your life because of happiness (unless you wreck and meet Enzo), wanting more painful than having, chicks dig it, amazing the good parking and other fringe benefits you get, and your mechanic will love you every 30k miles. | ||
| Ben Cannon (Artherd)
Junior Member Username: Artherd Post Number: 103 Registered: 6-2002 |
Well, since starting my own company at age 14, I still have other priorities in the way... not many. Mostly need a house (that I OWN) with garage to keep her in I too could afford a 308 today, but I couldn't afford to maintain it, other than by myself (and even then, parts will break you. ) Bottom lineL If you buy a $25k 308, you better have $10k MORE to keep it up. Also, toy purchases need to be balanced with rolling that $ back into my company, so I can buy an F40LM in 3 years. Do I buy the F-car, or upgrade the onyx2 so we can support HD <at>? I HAVE promised myself a 288GTO before I turn 30, but I've got a few years left yet (gosh, 8, this'll may-be a piece of cake?) I won't buy one untill I can afford to pay cash, and write it off if it disappears the next day. I want the car to be a pure blessing, so I am moved every time I see it, and I don't have in the back of my head "damn payments" or " ••••, I shouldn't have done this, we need the $ for the new **** project." I also finally, or rather, primarily, have a responsability to provide for my 5 employees that I take very seriously. I also take 5-valve 180* v-8s very seriously though! Best! Ben. | ||
| Jamil Jamal (Jameel)
New member Username: Jameel Post Number: 3 Registered: 9-2002 |
I'm a Ferrari lover but unfortunately a non-owner. I do however own a 1997 Porsche Boxster. The funny thing, I've never liked Porsche's, but it was the closest thing I could afford to a mid-engine, convertible, 2 seater Ferrari. I�ve always loved Ferraris, it�s my dream and since the introduction of the F50, F355, F360 and now the Enzo it�s all I�ve obsessed about. I guess I could have afforded a 308 or even pushed for a 328, but the maintenance cost on a Ferrari is crazy. It�s bad enough on the Porsche I would hate to imagine the Ferrari. The oil change on the Boxster is $279 CDN, I had transmission work done that was $7,000 CDN. | ||
| Ghostrider (Threefivefive)
New member Username: Threefivefive Post Number: 22 Registered: 8-2002 |
Bill, in my case it is not purchasing the car it is the upkeep and maintenance that is holding me back. This is an excellent point. For many of us (myself included) we are at a point where we can afford a Ferrari, but not the costs relating to the ongoing horror stories that we hear (and read about in F-Chat) regarding $12K timing belt issues and $375 oil changes. The newer Ferrari's that are still covered by warranty reflect that coverage in their price (efficient markets anyone?). Extensive due diligence, patience, homework, PPI's etc. all help, but the don't fully mitigate the risk. My view is that I don't like to take on leverage (at least on the personal side). I buy a Ferrari with the view that if it got wrecked tomorrow, I would still be financially secure (I'm not talking about the insurance issues, etc.) There is definitely something to be said about pursuing your dreams, and I applaud all of those that have, but unless I (A) have stronger earnings power, (B) get comfortable with the ongoing maintenance issues, or (C) Ferrari extends its warranty, (or all three), I am going to hold off on purchasing an F-Car. Even though I am hella tempted because I know that a 360 Modena Pozzi Blue six-speed coupe would look phenomenal in my garage. Regards. | ||
| Crusing (Crusing)
New member Username: Crusing Post Number: 22 Registered: 10-2002 |
Nebula, I was once in your shoes and I finally got my Ferrari. I remember sitting in the law library while studying for the Bar and snooping here on Ferrarichat. In fact, being able to earn enough money to buy a F-car was a factor in deciding to go to law school. I have been practicing for a while now and I was able buy my car outright due to a nice settlement. However, if I had to make payments there would be no way. The reason I say this is that people have a misimpression about lawyers... it is not easy to make a ton of money being one. I would really be sure you want to go through the three year investment of effort and expense (roughly 80K by the time I finished) to get that TR. There are a ton of other ways to make good money. I only say this because my girlfriend works in telecom sales with people who at most have a college degree and they earn between 100-350K/year. There are times I kick myself for wasting time for three years and getting into a bunch of debt when there are easier ways to make money.(the nobility of the profession wore off in a hurry) If you love the law, go for it, but I would seriously think twice if I were to do it again. Hard work in nearly any field will enable you to buy what you want. If you want to talk about law school feel free to email me. Good luck, you'll get that TR. | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 517 Registered: 7-2002 |
Yes money is a strange thing. A friend of mine and I do some mortgages and we are always amazed at the folks who have a $600 cadillac pmt, but have late pays on their credit report for the cable bill, phone and electric. On the flip side, my wifes aunt/uncle in kentucky died recently and they seemed very poor. However, they had over $1 million cash in the bank. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 812 Registered: 8-2002 |
Hans, Don't get down on your 308GT4. Is it still a Ferrari. Remember, there was a time when the dino was considered worse due to the non-Ferrari badging and v-6 BTY - you are on my fridge at home. My wife LHAO at your picture. | ||
| Anthony_Ferrari (Anthony_ferrari)
New member Username: Anthony_ferrari Post Number: 28 Registered: 11-2002 |
"Some make $5K/month, and don't have a pot to pee in" Is the pot a factory fitted option? Like many of you here I don't own a Ferrari. I've got a wife and 2 daughters. My wife deals in F1 Memorabilia, mostly Ferrari stuff. So I can get a Ferrari racesuit, gloves, and helmet, but I've yet to get a car! Come to think of it the Racesuit and helmet are worth about the same as a 348!! | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 677 Registered: 4-2002 |
I'm always amazed at what people do with money. I work in a car dealership, in the office, and I see what people get paid. Some make $5K/month, and don't have a pot to pee in. Others make $1.5K/month, and live like kings, with savings. Amazing. Me? I was one of those guys who could live on a pittance, until I got the evil stepchild (308GT4). | ||
| Bart Boonacker (Sharky666)
Junior Member Username: Sharky666 Post Number: 74 Registered: 9-2002 |
Over here another poor student. I'm studing to get my bachelor in Mechanical Engineering, don't really know if it's the same in the US. I'm also living on about 300 euro a month, but that's because I work every weekend. But one day, after a year or 10, I hope to drive one myself. About the drooling, YEH I'm drooling I can't wait to get together on the European Fchat meeting and see al those Fcars with my own eyes. And coming February the Enzo, Ahhh I'm so excited. Bill, I'm surprised to read that aswell, 2 ferrari's, your own home, a family and make around $35k a year ? Not that I think $35k a years isn't much, I'd say it's a lot by my standards but still. May I ask how old you are ? I'm sorry if it gets to private, you don't have to anwser offcourse but I'm just curious how it can be managed. Because that would be the way to go for me You need to know that most over here, of those that don't own a Fcar are around 25, and haven't really had the time to save money I guess. I have no intention into stepping onto someones toe's, just my 0.02� | ||
| Fayyaz Vellani (Fvellani)
New member Username: Fvellani Post Number: 3 Registered: 8-2002 |
I'm also a non-owner. I'm only 16 though (17 in a couple of weeks). I'm stuck driving my parents 93 Camry. | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
New member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 18 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well, I'm not in law school YET. I will be soon, though. And I gotta use the TR as a carrot, because no matter how much I'd love to buy one now, I live on $200 bux a month after all is said and done. The only TR I'm buying with $200/month is a Testor's model. Ahhh....I can't wait. Someday, someday.... | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1697 Registered: 6-2001 |
How the hell to you have 2 ferraris and kids? thats quite an accomplishment. i guess you are proof that it can be done. | ||
| Robert McNair (Rrm)
Junior Member Username: Rrm Post Number: 161 Registered: 5-2002 |
There's an old saying that always stuck with me 'it's not how much you make it is what you do with it'. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
New member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 43 Registered: 8-2002 |
Nebula... i'm in the same class as you, (although, you seem to be ahead of that class, being in law school)... if i'm lucky, i make about 28k a year (before taxes, those bastards!)... i dropped out of college after two semesters and now i work full time for an insurance brokerage (anyone need insurance?)... i live in a nice area on Long Island, (Commack), but i lucked out with an apartment- i pay $475 a month for a studio...! i drive a '93 Sentra (i know everyone's tired of hearing that), and she's on her way out... unfortunately, i don't plan to replace her with an F car... however, i frequently (a few times a week) drive down 25 to Champion Auto Collision in Nassau County, which is now Bentley of L.I. and i check out the Ferraris and Porsches in their lot (mmmmm, tasty)... i figure, if i play my cards right, i'll have a Ferrari by the time i'm 65 (great, only 42 more years to go...!) Bill, my car cost me nothing, it was a gift from a family member who was getting a new one, back in February... the insurance on my car drains me- $423 a month, every six months out of the year...! let's not get started on the maintenance on a car that's pushing 200,000 miles... a car i'm not exactly easy on... i don't have health insurance, my boss pays for my dental, i don't wear expensive clothes, my hobbies consist of driving and eating, so my only hobby expenses are gas and food... so i'm not pouring my money into something that's keeping me from buying a Ferrari- 28k doesn't go very far in a year... (especially after the IRS gets there F*CKING greedy hands on it...!) | ||
| Ken Ross (Kdross)
Junior Member Username: Kdross Post Number: 187 Registered: 2-2002 |
Nebula: Forget about using the TR as a carrot. I am a law school student and purchased my Ferrari last year. Why wait for what can be had today? With prices so low for a TR ($55K will buy you a very nice low mileage TR), why not buy one today? | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 137 Registered: 4-2002 |
Tim, I hate to say this in public but I am in that 30% bracket myself. But after being gainfully employed since I was 15 years old, owning my home free and clear, and two ferraris paid for in full, I still manage to provide for my family. I think that $2000.00 mini van has a lot to do with it. The bottom line is that you can have all the stuff you want, and more, if you work your freeking ass off, and take the risks if you have to! | ||
| Robert McNair (Rrm)
Junior Member Username: Rrm Post Number: 160 Registered: 5-2002 |
Well put Tim. My "toy money" was invested in the stock market so it appreciated in the late 90's which enables me to purchase a 30k+ car. However I have made considerably less in the last couple of years which is causing me to make the most sensible choice in buying my first expensive toy. No matter what I buy Ferrari has been and always will be my favorite marque. | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1696 Registered: 6-2001 |
that 40% should probably be more like 30%, but even so, it still makes my point. | ||
| Ron R (Ronr)
New member Username: Ronr Post Number: 27 Registered: 10-2002 |
Bill is absolutely right. I was really surprised I could get one at those prices. You can't hardly get a new car these days without paying in that range, or much more. If you find one that's been recently serviced, the maintenance cost year to year shouldn't be too awful. I least that's what I'm hoping for, I've had my 308 for two and a half weeks, and it's a thrill! | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1695 Registered: 6-2001 |
Bill, you are forgetting that probably 40% of the population makes $35k or less per year. They also have to take care of and feed their family, while putting a roof over their head. Some people on this board seem to think that most americans make $75k+ a year. they dont. 10% of the population owns 90% of the wealth. that is a fact, im not just making that up. the average income in the us is like high $60k, but that is so offset by people making a s**tload of money that you really cant go by that. sure there are alot of people that could afford ferraris but dont have them, but its not like a majority of the population could. not all jobs pay as well as the ones you have. im not trying to be a d***, im just pointing that out. | ||
| Rikky Alessi (Ralessi)
New member Username: Ralessi Post Number: 32 Registered: 5-2002 |
I am one of the people without a ferrari unfortunately... I am only 16 though so hopefully I will change that within the next decade or so seems like a long time putting it that way though | ||
| Robert McNair (Rrm)
Junior Member Username: Rrm Post Number: 159 Registered: 5-2002 |
Bill, in my case it is not purchasing the car it is the upkeep and maintenance that is holding me back. | ||
| Jeff Green (Carguy)
Junior Member Username: Carguy Post Number: 53 Registered: 10-2002 |
Bill - you are absolutely right! There has never been a better time to buy a Ferrari than right now. That's what I did and have never looked back....but then again nothing major has gone wrong either.....when it does I may do an about face! I think you must not only drive your Ferrari, but on rainy days just spend some time with her...do little odds and ends to prevent problems. If a blue collar type like me can get a TR then so can a lot of others. | ||
| Bill Steele (Glassman)
Junior Member Username: Glassman Post Number: 136 Registered: 4-2002 |
I don't understand how with some Ferrari prices in the $25,000 to $35,00 range, anybody with a job that wants a car cannot buy one. Get a $2000.00 mini van for everyday, and buy a stinking Ferrari. | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 388 Registered: 10-2001 |
No ferrari yet here . Something before i hit 30 though. | ||
| Dr Tommy Cosgrove (Vwalfa4re)
Member Username: Vwalfa4re Post Number: 437 Registered: 5-2001 |
I was a very active FCA member for 5 years before I bought mine. I just liked being around them. I was still a student when I joined. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 439 Registered: 5-2002 |
Not poverty stricken, meerly car poor. Too many Corvette and 4wd projects. No cheap Ferrari in sight and not willing to liquidate other projects to obtain a horse. From reading the advice on this board, it would seem that any Ferrari made after the 328 series is not really suited for the home garage wrench turner. On post 328 cars, too many engine procedures require the engine to be pulled which equals major expense unless you have the facilities and knowledge to do the job. | ||
| David J. Smith (Darkhorse512)
Junior Member Username: Darkhorse512 Post Number: 68 Registered: 10-2002 |
Just stopped by Symbolic Motors in L.A. today (part moivation, part fix for my jones). They had Schumi's spare '97 F310B, '57 250 GT Spyder and a 360,348,355. Friendly sales staff, Hot receptionist. Being a big fan of Robert Kiyosaki books I started my own business this year. Things are going well and everyday I see myself getting closer to the things (car) I want. Truth be told I could afford that wrecked '86TR on ebay right now. I could keep it until another $20K came along to make it right. But minus the headache I'm going to wait until I'm fully liquid for a quality "needs nothing" example. | ||
| Robert McNair (Rrm)
Junior Member Username: Rrm Post Number: 158 Registered: 5-2002 |
I'm a wannabe someday feels like it keeps getting farther and farther away owner! | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 855 Registered: 10-2001 |
I have a Ferrari but the more I try to get it ready for summer the poorer I get. I like to say that the oven is warm but there is no dough. | ||
| V.Z. (Ama328)
New member Username: Ama328 Post Number: 29 Registered: 11-2002 |
Pretty good, Hans, your pic portrays what i sometimes think will be my future... | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 808 Registered: 8-2002 |
HANS!!!! LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! M | ||
| Frank K Lipinski (Kaz)
Junior Member Username: Kaz Post Number: 52 Registered: 11-2002 |
LOL - Gotta be picture of the month! | ||
| Hans E. Hansen (4re_gt4)
Member Username: 4re_gt4 Post Number: 668 Registered: 4-2002 |
How about impoverished owners?  (Would have said "Ferrari Needs a 30K", but most people wouldn't have understood.) | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 389 Registered: 3-2002 |
No fcar here either... just about to start a major in the (very) near future so... I can't wait but help... It might be a while, but I'm sure it'll be worth the wait... | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 523 Registered: 8-2002 |
Not poverty stricken but still a non-owner. Go figure. | ||
| Chris Horner (Cmhorner17)
New member Username: Cmhorner17 Post Number: 38 Registered: 4-2002 |
Yeah, I feel your pain. I don't have one in my garage yet (actually first I need to get the garage). But my wife agrees that once college is done for her and we have a house then I can have my toy - a carb'd 308GTS (sounds like a good starting point). | ||
| Aaron Williams (Aawil)
New member Username: Aawil Post Number: 20 Registered: 8-2002 |
I'm a non ferrari owner. I do have a 90 corvette that drains me to death. I would like to have one within a couple years.I must admit I would really like to have a C5 I've wanted one since they came out. The ferrari certainly wouldn't be for it's performance which I would probably be dissapointed in but to satisfy my lust for ferraris. I would like a 308-328 but I'm real afraid of buying a headache with parts and service price beyond what I can afford.The vette I can work on myself but the ferrari is a whole different aninimal. | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 267 Registered: 3-2002 |
No F-car for me just yet. But I'm thinking in about 5-6 years I will be able to get my first one. Hopefully this Finance degree I am working on will pay off. It is great to visit this site on a regular basis because it provides so much incentive for me to reach some of my goals. | ||
| Matt (Matt_lamotte)
Junior Member Username: Matt_lamotte Post Number: 79 Registered: 10-2002 |
I feel your pain Neb. I am one of the fellow guys on here that gets to drool on my computer all day everyday looking at everyone else car. One day my friend........one day | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3014 Registered: 2-2001 |
If you scratch out the "non" then I'd have to say I am, but come to think of it, I'm poverty stricken because of the Ferrari. Go figure. I look at it that it is in essence sick as it is all apart now, of course when one is so sick they have they need for an intravenous to be hooked up. It just seems the Ferrari's intravenous is hooked directly to my wallet. Damn Ferrari. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 2878 Registered: 12-2000 |
yes, but I have a Ferrari in my garage that the bank lets me drive if I tip them a little each month. | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
New member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 17 Registered: 11-2002 |
Am I an anomaly? I don't own one, yet I plan to in 4 years when I pick up the signing bonus for my first law gig. I see a lot of owners here, and I'm just wondering how many other people here are like me. I'm a college student, using my future TR as a carrot. Any other poor ass people like me drooling over the F-cars on this board? |