| Author | Message | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 324 Registered: 4-2002 |
One last point, who cares what the Fly wheel HP is anyways? Why use different % based on the car? Lol! To make you feel better? The ONLY power that matters is the power at your wheels. If a company wants to make that go up by tuning the engine or making the drive train more efficient, both ways are equally valid. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3040 Registered: 2-2001 |
Another thing, to me it seems there must be more friction in a mid engined cars drivetrain as compared to a front engined. Simply put, there are more gears, shafts, bearings, etc to get the power from the flywheel to the rear wheels. I think the 360 has made a step forward from the earlier cars, but it still is not as efficient as a separate engine, trans, and rear end, nor do I see it being quite as efficient as a transaxle like in the 550 or the Corvette. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 256 Registered: 4-2002 |
Dynos are not like rulers; dynos have inherent inaccuracies. A typical rolling wheel dyno has a) about 1% inaccuracy compared to a NBS stationary engine dyno, b) 1% inaccuracy from (post) corrected atmospheric conditions (temp humidity, pressure), c) 1% inaccuracy from tire slipage, and d) at least 1% inaccuracy from the assumptions about the rotational inertia of the engine/driveline. All told, you end up with an accuracy between 2% {= sqrt(sum(accuracies**2))} and 4% {sum(accuracies)}. Finally, operators have been known to alter the temp/humidity numbers to show higher HP numbers in some situations. On top of this is the 15%-18% loss from the transmission gearing. 15% is usually the taken number for American muscle cars and accounts for the transmission plus driveline, clutch, hals shafts, differential, and wheel bearings. The F360 transmission has an additional crown gear that allows the transmission shafts to be lower than an americaln transmission, and incurrs additional loss. Automatic transmissions are generally given a 20% loss to include the losses of the fluid clutch. Since Ferraris do not have drive shafts, and use very low rotational inertia engines, the driveline losses for a Ferrari are not "similar" enough to american passenger vehicles (where the dynos are adjusted) to imporve on the basic inaccuracies in rolling wheel dyno operations. Anybody who thinks they know the HP or TQ output of their (~400 HP) engine within 5 HP of its true numbers is a) on drugs, b) a product of the texas education system, or c) unable to think in engineering terms. Modern ECUs tune the engine as you drive, adjusting spark advance, fuel mixture,... If you want to dyno on Race Gas, you need to take a 50-100 mile drive so the computer can learn the gasoline for optimal (closest to reality, not highest numbers) dyno runs. I don't think that the 323 number is "that far" out of the range, as 385*.85 == 327, so you may only be 4 HP shy, which is small enough to be weather, gas, oil, temperatures, or dyno inaccuracy. Mustang dynos typically deliver HP numbers about 10 HP higher (again at the ~400 HP level) than dynojet dynos. But once again these can be 8 HP (2%) to 16 HP (4%) higher or lower than reality. Finally, if you take 100 Ferrari F360 engines and successively dyno the cars they are in you will get a spread of numbers at least 5% wide (20 HP). Some are better than others, some will be higher early in their lives, others higher later in their lives, most will be a touch higher after a major service. You are close enough to the ball park as to not worry about the minor discrepancy in HP. Don't fret about it, enjoy it. | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 323 Registered: 4-2002 |
Ah, then don't fret. If they are not SAE, they mean nothing. | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1051 Registered: 8-2001 |
Mitch, I don't know. | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 320 Registered: 4-2002 |
Willis, you should be around 338 - 343 RWHP. Where your numbers SAE corrected? | ||
| Dan (Bobafett)
Junior Member Username: Bobafett Post Number: 121 Registered: 9-2002 |
Yasir - 20rwhp seems like an awful lot to gain from gas, esp. on a non-turbo car. I did dyno runs on my '00 m5, both on 91 and 100, and found a 7rwhp diff. Of course, it's difficult to compare accurately, despite SAE corrections, because of the differing weather, etc. that you mentioned. --Dan | ||
| yasir saifullah (Yasir)
New member Username: Yasir Post Number: 11 Registered: 7-2002 |
Ernesto, As we all know aren't there too many variables when it comes to dynoeing a car like 1)-Pump gas vs Race gas 2)-The weather conditions(the colder the better) 3)-Resetting the ECU 4)-The gear you do the pull in ? to name few. I bet if Willis had used some Race gas he would have definately picked up atleast another 20-RWHP if not more.I know my Supra TT gained about 25 RWHP just by using the Race Gas,may be the difference is more noticeable in Turbo Cars. Later, Yasir | ||
| John Delvac (Johndelvac)
Junior Member Username: Johndelvac Post Number: 176 Registered: 11-2001 |
OK - It is a '99 360 w/ 22K+ miles, no dents or scratches, 1 owner, service complete, and they wanted $135K. What's it really worth? There are many '99 355s out there for more. | ||
| John Delvac (Johndelvac)
Junior Member Username: Johndelvac Post Number: 158 Registered: 11-2001 |
This black 360 with a few miles just sold at FoA. What do you guys think it was worth? I think they were asking just under $140K. http://www.ferrariofatlanta.com/cgi-bin/listings.pl?displaykey&86 | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1966 Registered: 9-2001 |
those are the optional wheels I beleive - which are just like the Barcas | ||
| John Delvac (Johndelvac)
Junior Member Username: Johndelvac Post Number: 157 Registered: 11-2001 |
DB - Nice wheels on your spider. Are they Barchetta PF wheels? Black is beautiful! | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1048 Registered: 8-2001 |
Thanks, Matt. I think my future orders will also be in the same color combo. Not sure which car to order at this point though. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 832 Registered: 8-2002 |
Willis, I love the black carpet. You are very right. I does that the edge off the red. Great looking car. | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1047 Registered: 8-2001 |
There's no 10K mile service officially but It had to be done. It was more like a 15K service. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1963 Registered: 9-2001 |
i have heard 15-20 also | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1046 Registered: 8-2001 |
I don't know. Is my rating THAT low? That's about an 18% loss through the transmission. Not too bad considering that the car was due for a 10,000 mile service at the time. 395 horsepower is the official figure for the US spec 360 Modena. I don't think that was taken from the rear wheels. What's a typical percentage loss to the rear wheels? Some have told me about 15 percent. Care to enlighten me? | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 316 Registered: 4-2002 |
Wow, those are low numbers.  | ||
| ELI (Titanium360)
Junior Member Username: Titanium360 Post Number: 230 Registered: 4-2002 |
The black color is hotest color on the 360 Spyders. DB let me know when you are ready to sell yours! | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1043 Registered: 8-2001 |
323.8 at the rear wheels. A bit below what I was expecting. Did you get any dyno numbers for yours, Ernesto? | ||
| D B (Threesixty)
Junior Member Username: Threesixty Post Number: 101 Registered: 8-2002 |
Look in my profile for a pic of a black Spider | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Member Username: T88power Post Number: 933 Registered: 2-2001 |
Willis, what numbers did the 360 put out in the dyno? Ernesto | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1042 Registered: 8-2001 |
Here's me at the Dyno session  Below is a shot by the official photographer at the 2001 Concorso at the Pier last year. Note that the carpet is black and that red cylinder below the A/C control knobs is the leather-wrapped fire extinguisher.  | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 391 Registered: 3-2002 |
I like all new Ferraris in black... they look incredible. Nice car Willis... is that interior red or brown/tan? | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1041 Registered: 8-2001 |
Here are a couple of pics   | ||
| J.D. Smythe (Jeff)
Junior Member Username: Jeff Post Number: 81 Registered: 2-2001 |
Yesterday I saw a new 360 black spider being delivered at Scottsdale Ferrari. It was simply gorgeous. I do not care for the metallic black. It always seems speckled with dust. | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1040 Registered: 8-2001 |
It's Nero with the standard Bourdeax (red) leather. I chose black carpet to take the edge off the red. | ||
| Ken Ross (Kdross)
Junior Member Username: Kdross Post Number: 188 Registered: 2-2002 |
I love black Ferrari's (makes them look sinister), but it is a real bit*h to keep a black car clean. Five minutes after you wash it the car is dirty again. | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1039 Registered: 8-2001 |
I have a black 360. Check my profile and the 360 showroom section on this site for a few more pictures. | ||
| alberto bavai (Abavai)
New member Username: Abavai Post Number: 4 Registered: 10-2002 |
What do you think obout black 360 modena metallic? Yesterday saw on Madrid one at the black colou with tan interior, very beautifil. This car I saw in the shop of ferrari and nobody want buy with the colour isn�t the prefer for the ferraristi. I loved it. Blak is a good colour for the 328 gts and modena. Do you like the black modena? |