| Author | Message | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 385 Registered: 1-2002 |
arlie- Agreed, again, if I were buying a 9 million dollar GTO, I'd damn well want the correct chassis and s/n; however, and as I've said, the engine and such, in a race car is a 'wear item', as long as the 'original' in question stands up to my standard of 'original, unmolested, comissioned by the factory, etc.' identification; that is, s/n and original chassis w/ appropriate designation its a done deal. That was my point, the rebodies, like the one that started this thread, lack the distinction that I've listed, hence, it cannot be an original and the originals should not be crticized on account of the existence and assumed relationship that they may have to such rebodies. Further, and again I'm not expert and have not empirically checked every original Ferrari of note, but I would find it hard to believe that anyone would drop the GNP of a small nation on a car w/out credible documetation; meaning, you and I aren't the only two joe's on the block that think to themselves '..gee this car has no chassis documentation and no s/n..oh, it's okay..its purdy I'll buy it anyway..' People in these 'circles' may, as you say, make up the rules, but they can also bite them in the ass, as myself, wouldn't pay top dollar for a car w/out top dollar paper work and history. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 463 Registered: 5-2002 |
Agreed again Hubert. Again, your words: "but I'd be willing to bet that, the majority, of cars with 'esteemed pedigree' will have all identifiable marks complete and unmolested, " I think that it SHOULD be that way, but I believe that it is not always that way. It seems to me that the high dollar collectors start to make excuses for their cars that the little guy could not get away with. My favorite excuse from the rich guy collectors: "This is a race car and most race cars blew up alot of engines, so it's permissable for MY car to have a NON-original engine." But since some other guy is a small fish, his NON-racing car is supposed to have its original engine, body, and frame all intact before it is worth the big bucks. Hold on a minute!!! Has everybody forgotten that street driven cars blew up alot of engines also??? Not just talking Ferrari, but Corvette, Cobra, Mustang, Maserati and a ton of others. So why must a street car still have its original engine but King Highnmighty's car can have any "model correct" engine? I think that when you start REALLY looking into the documentation of alot of collector cars that are in the hands of wealthy high rollers, alot of those cars will NOT stand up to the same standards of documentation that everybody else's cars are expected to meet. Something like, "I'm one of the rich collectors and we make the rules so don't bother us with details that ruin our party". It's just like the business world. Ever notice how corporate policies and procedures always bend in the direction to favor management over labor? When profits are up, management gets richer, when profits are down, labor gets laid off. Same thing in the collector car world. If the rich collector's documentation is foggy, my collector buddies will let it slide. If it's YOUR car, well then, the documentation doesn't lie! | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 550 Registered: 8-2002 |
Terry, I was reading somewhere that the two D types were bought by one man who has since gone to work on reuniting all of the original stuff into one car and destroying the remaining junk to put an end to the mess once and for all. I can't remember the name or even the chassis number off the top of my head (non-Ferrari, you know). | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 384 Registered: 1-2002 |
arlie- My comments were meant to address 'badged' cars only. Therefore, in my world and what I would drop my nickel on, would be 'required' to have it's chassis number intact, end of story, and I find it hard to believe that owners of original cars let the chassis number/ s/n slip through the cracks; considering that the cars worth hinges on this fact staying constant. My point, in using the chassis numbers, was to point out that a 330 chassis is not a 250 chassis, and that irrespective of what body parts are replaced, that fact is unchanged. Lastly, a 250 chassis (chassis and s/n intact) regardless of replacement bodywork/components will always be a 250. And, I'm not as versed in s/n chassis numbers as say the rest of you, but I'd be willing to bet that, the majority, of cars with 'esteemed pedigree' will have all identifiable marks complete and unmolested, if they exist w/out these, and have a spectacular history or price tag associated to them without proper authtentication, then that would mark a moment of pause on my thoughts as they pertained to the originality of the car. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 462 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hubert said: "if the original chassis was not commissioned to be an original car, of proper vintage, then no rebody, no mater how good, can take on it's 'person'. Agreed Hubert! The key word here is "chassis". The chassis is where the serial number is stamped. The entire heritage and documentation and provenance of a car hinges upon its chassis serial number. If we're using the original CHASSIS SERIAL NUMBER and how it was originally commissioned at the Ferrari factory as our key point of documentation, once that CHASSIS and its SERIAL NUMBER is gone, then the car itself is also gone. You can't have it both ways. You can't say that a car's serial number is the major determing factor of its historical and financial value and then do a 180 degree turnabout and ignore the fact that the chassis or a major portion of it has been replaced with a modern replica fabrication. A re-body is even more suspect. A re-body will never have the correct serial number tag unless the tag has been switched from the original body. If that has been done and the chassis is also a NON-ORIGINAL, then the entire car is suspect. Not picking on Ferrari in particular. The same thing also applies to other marques as well. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 382 Registered: 1-2002 |
arlie- In my, limited and infentile, undertsanding your interpertation of these cars is askew; that is, the issue is not what parts have been replaced, rebuilt, added, changed, etc., it's the lineage that is important and how it (the given chassis) 'came into the world'; as in; was this car commissioned, by the factory, to be a 250 GTO, california spyder, 330 GTC, etc., then, regardless of what has/has not been altered, the car, originally, was born a 250GTO and it's pedigree is that of an ORIGINAL 250 GTO. Now, you'd be quick to point out that many hands were involved in the making (the various coach builder, etc.), but again, was the car commission, by the factory, to be a 250 GTO, yes or no? Coversely, if a car, say a 330, is rebodied, even by an original coachbuilder to Ferrari it is not, and never can be, attributed the lineage, history, and reputation of the car it's meant to emulate, simply b/c it wasn't originally concieved to be what it's become; this, in my opinion, is irrespective of what body parts, what engine, what seats it shares, etc. if the original chassis was not commissioned to be an original car, of proper vintage, then no rebody, no mater how good, can take on it's 'person'. -hubert | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 461 Registered: 5-2002 |
Terry said: "He smashed the crap out of it basically totally trashing the entire front end. I mean that car was BENT. It has since race at Goodwood looking like a new car. I guarantee you that the Monterey accident did not reduce its value one bit. Nor would it have if the owner had been driving it." Your statements verify my double standard concerns. Why wasn't its value reduced by the accident? If the entire front end of the car was destroyed, then the replacement front end was NON-ORIGINAL. You perfectly illustrate my double standard. If a rare collector car has the entire front end destroyed in an accident and replaced, it is supposedly still ALL ORIGINAL and its value is unaffected by a NON-ORIGINAL replacement front end? That's crazy. If any other Ferrari had its front end totally replaced, the value most certainly would be affected. So we're supposed to let a car "slide" and look the other way just because at one time it was a race winner? Double standard. Hey, I've got a 1942 military M3A1 armoured Scout Car that helped win World War II. It has a replacement front hood. I guess that since it helped fight a REAL battle and not just a road race battle, I guess it's worth a million dollars. A replacement front end is a replacement front end, no matter WHOSE car it goes on. Same thing goes for engines. What Ferrari enthusiast is going to take a car seriously that has had major body, frame, or engine replacement? If MAJOR body, frame, and engine replacements don't affect originality or value, then maybe I should build myself a two million dollar airplane. I have a pressure gauge from a P-51D Mustang fighter plane at home. It came from a crash site. If I build a new fuselage, engine, and cockpit to surround my pressure gauge, then I guess it's just as valuable as a complete P-51D that anybody else has. Never mind that it wouldn't have an original serial number tag. After all, alot of the rare racing Ferraris don't have their original frame or body tags or engine stampings either because those parts have been replaced. What's good for one goose is good for another gander isn't it??? | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 339 Registered: 4-2002 |
Arlie, If somebody owning one of the original 250GTO's were to smash the crap out of it while racing it, and then have it totally restored to perfect condition, it would probably not effect the value at all. This has actually happened on a number of occassions with huge dollar cars. Race cars get bent, it doesnt matter if it was bent today or 30 years ago as long as it was properly rebuilt AND it still uses the same basic chassis. Sir Stirling Moss himself got banned from Monterey for a year due to causing a turn 1 wreck a few years back. He was driving the actual LeMans winning 1959 Aston Martin DBR1. He smashed the crap out of it basically totally trashing the entire front end. I mean that car was BENT. It has since race at Goodwood looking like a new car. I guarantee you that the Monterey accident did not reduce its value one bit. Nor would it have if the owner had been driving it. Where problem arise is when back in the day something funny may have taken place. Lets say Racer X owns a P4. He wrecks it. He then buys or fabricates lots of new parts for it and rebuilds the car. Then he takes a bunch of the spare parts and some wrecked original parts that have been repaired and puts together another car. Both cars are raced some more, both having further repairs and modifications designed to make them go faster. Nobody keeps track of what is where or how/when it was swapped. Eventually both cars are sold. The new owners also race them and more of the same stuff happens. 20 years goes by. The cars are now worth a Gazzillion dollars. Which one is the factory car? Who knows. Its not the accident damage. Its more the fact that through accident, updating. racing modification or deliberate subterfuge some cars just do not have a clear provenance. These cars will never be worth as much. That does not mean they are not still worth a lot more money than I have... A good example is the D-type scenario I described before. The questioned car, with 2 cars making claim to the same VIN, still sold for $400K or so. While a ton of money thats still 50% of what a non-storied D would bring. I dont think there is any double standard. As to your rebody scenario, I dont think a modern rebody would effect value at all. Somebody wrecks his '50 TR and has it rebodied to original specs, no problem on value. Somebody trashes his '62 250GTE and then has it rebuilt and rebodied as a 250GTO however, dont expect it to carry the value of a real GTO. Its not a GTO. Its a 250GTE that has been built into a GTO replica. If I owned such a car and someone asked me waht it was, I would tell them its a 1962 Ferrari 250GTE that has been rebuilt into a GTO clone for racing. I certainly would not expect it to be worth GTO money. However, when compared to an original GTE the new clone is actually worth a good bit more than an original car so this would point to the exact opposite of your arguement. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 458 Registered: 5-2002 |
Terry said, "Just because you can take a Ferrari chassis and engine and lots of other authentic bits, and put them together with a body built on the original factory jigs and even crafted by the same men who built the originals does not mean you have a GTO. You may have an exact reproduction... but you dont have the real thing. You know this." Can we assume that the same philosophy applies to P4 Ferraris also??? Not bashing Jim's P4 project, but there should be no double standards. ". I think you actually understand this very well, but you have a bit of a thing against rare, racing historied Ferrari's and perhaps against ol' Enzo himself. " I have nothing against rare, racing historied Ferraris. What I don't like among the collector car world is the incredible double standards that constantly exist. If King Highnmighty wrecked his racing Ferrari in 1964 and sent it back to Italy for a rebody, then today it's worth a fortune. If Joe Carguy wrecked his racing Ferrari in 1998 and sent it back to the same Italian coachbuilder for a rebody, then today it's worth whatever it's worth. Probably less than it would be before the wreck because now it has a rebody stigma attached to it. How come King Highnmighty's car has no such stigma? Because it happened 40 years ago during the "good ole days"? So how many years have to pass by before a rebody becomes tasty to the Ferrari world's palette? | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 338 Registered: 4-2002 |
It would sure be nice to see sanctioning bodies open up more to replicas of this quality for vintage racing. Except for a few select events (Goodwood Revival, Classic Lemans, Monaco Classic) you just dont see these cars driven in anger at all any more. Monterey Historics sure dont offer anything really IMHO. I dont know of any events in the States were you see these cars really driven hard and raced door to door as they were meant too. Perhaps if duplicate quality replicas were allowed, you would see more people really racing them. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 546 Registered: 8-2002 |
FYI all: 250 TR replica just sold at Christie's in London on Dec. 3 for $230,825 USD. http://www.christies.com/LotFinder/search/LOTDETAIL.ASP?sid=&intObjectID=4037227 | ||
| C. Smith (Italianauto)
Junior Member Username: Italianauto Post Number: 134 Registered: 10-2001 |
A friend/fellow club member/customer of mine has a Favre 250 GTO he bought about a year ago. Before he bought the car he was allowed to fully inspect it. The car was correct in every way (even the cylinder heads were certified to be original GTO)....but....someone had added AIR CONDITIONING! The car is absolutely gorgeous and has the sound to go with it. I don't know how much he paid for it but do know that he traded a 550 Maranello as part of the deal. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 544 Registered: 8-2002 |
The fake SWB is believed to be s/n 4015GT. The list of owners since Brokett goes something like this: 1. Jon Shirley 2. Dominik Ellenrieder 3. Purchased by Jeremy Cottingham for Mr. Luay Allawi. 4. Traded to DK Engineering for s/n 3657GT (REAL SWB). 5. Appeared at the Coys Auction in Monaco earlier this year. Sold to? (I'm not at home and don't have access to any of my records. Can't remember, sorry.) | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 509 Registered: 3-2002 |
Terry, it is funny you mentioned the Lord Brocket 250, I would love to own that car. Think it sold for $165,000. Wayne, who owns the 250 now? | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 333 Registered: 4-2002 |
Chris, this is not the only really high quality GTO conversion out there. There are also some fantastic 250SWB and 250TR replicas done to the same standards. Im sure you could find one with the contacts on this board and the internet. It may take a while, but surely they can be had. I think the Sports Car Market reported the ex- Lord Brocket 250SWB replica being sold for like $145K recently. That one was actually passed off successfully and even sold as the real thing before Lord Brocket was found out as a crook and the real car emerged.... | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 508 Registered: 3-2002 |
Whoops! now this guy has me saiyng it is worth $225,000! He is a hell of a salesman! "Regardless, while he may have $200,000 or so in the car, it is still only worth $225,000 or so" I obviously meant to say, $125,000.......... Hi Steve! Oh you know, I was getting bored with the same old junk in my garage, wanted something fun to drive.......... (The Kenworth is coming along nicely, it is going to be waaaaaay cool!) Oh well.......... | ||
| Steve (V10_nut)
New member Username: V10_nut Post Number: 34 Registered: 3-2002 |
Too bad Chris...I would have loved to see this one in your garage. Was this going to be a Christmas present to yourself or had you come up with another way to rationalize it? Steve | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 506 Registered: 3-2002 |
Paul, I suspect he is a nice guy, I suspect what happened is he probably paid way too much for this car. I do not know if he paid for the engine rebuild or the previous owner. Regardless, while he may have $200,000 or so in the car, it is still only worth $225,000 or so. If he was duped by the previous owner I guess it is a business lesson he will have to learn, if he is unethical enough to pass this car off at $210,000 it is a lesson we will learn about this man's character. The Ferrari community is very small, business practices like this will earn a person a reputation that is never forgotten. If I am off base, I will accept that, but the "experets" I have spoken with are in agreement with the value of this car. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 630 Registered: 12-2001 |
Speaking of Daytona comp cars, John Levy at Shelton also has one that was converted. I would trust him, yes? | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
Member Username: Sloan83qv Post Number: 418 Registered: 3-2001 |
Hey guys, I have met both the owner and general manager of concours inc and they both seem to be very nice people, I however have not done business with them but there operation seems to be first class. They both attend Scuderia Sarasota Dinners every month and have brought some wonderful Ferrari's to the meetings. Based on the size of their operation I really don't think they want to make their year on this one car. Paul Sloan Sarasota FL | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 199 Registered: 10-2002 |
Chris The problem is P4 engines. As the factory bored two of them into 350 CanAm's. The only one's left, that I know of are the one in Lawrence Strolls car (The only without stories P4 in the world), the one in David's 0900, and the one in mine,whatever it may turn out to be.  | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 198 Registered: 10-2002 |
WM/Wyane The GT-40ies were me and Nick Saprano. His is a beautiful MK-I, mine is the yellow MK-IV. Wyane that is the correct name. Best Jim | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 393 Registered: 10-2001 |
For 210 000 $ Michael Sheehan has a very nice Daytona Competizione. Not a 1970's one , but an upgraded daytona to Comp spec. At least , its not a repro or a fake .. | ||
| '75 308 GT4 (Peter)
Intermediate Member Username: Peter Post Number: 2259 Registered: 12-2000 |
William Hart: The Favre cars were built by William Favre in Switzerland. They were salvaged 250 GT cars which were rebodied to look like the GTO's. With some of the cars, he used original parts (gearboxes, etc...). Long story short, he was selling them as real cars, got twisted up in legal battles, messed with drugs and the wrong people and committed suicide. If you want the full story, try to find a copy of Car & Driver, December 1989. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 538 Registered: 8-2002 |
Wm, Jim, 0234AM belonged to John Mastrioianni of Armonk, NY for nearly 30 years (1960's thru 1990's). Could that be the name of the gentleman you are referring to? Chris, I agree that this guy is nuts. $210,000?! | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 505 Registered: 3-2002 |
Terry, I had a long conversation with Mike Sheehan about this car, he says TOP dollar is $125,000 and it needs to have the correct wheels at that price. While you could not bulid it for $210,000 you WOULDN'T build it for $210,000 either! These cars were commissioned at a different time in history when Ferrari's were money in the bank! This car is a toy, nothing more, nothing less. If you were going to spend $210,000, you would have a much greater selection of "real" cars to pick from. While I do not Know James Glickenhaus, I have read his posts with great admiration, as I am sure most of us have. While his P4 has a basis for historical significance, I suspect he will spend the rest of his live defending or establishing the pedigree of his car. The thing I repect about James is, he could care less since he will never sell it. As Wayne has pointed out, this "330 GTO" can not be defended, it is not what it appears to be and such carries the reputation of a bastard at the family reunion. You certainly run the risk of being considered a "poser" everywhere you take this car, so you better be thicked skinned. I think the dealer that owns this car has a huge hurdle in front of him, the numbe of people willing to spend $210,000 on a "fake" is pretty limited. Now, if I could get a basket case P4 for $210,000, now that would be a deal! | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 629 Registered: 12-2001 |
Jim: i think you got the name right. The senior owned the King's car, and i think it went thru a few hands before it wound up being restored and resold to one of the chaps L Wayne mentioned. The son (who drove the faux GTO next to me) was mid-late 40's, pleasant, unassuming guy. I was there in black 550 barchetta, followed a pair of GT -40's out onto the hi-way when i left. | ||
| Ken Ross (Kdross)
Junior Member Username: Kdross Post Number: 189 Registered: 2-2002 |
I recall reading in the Robb Report a year or two ago that a company or individual was making this car. Cost was about $275K. It got good reviews from the Robb Report for what that is worth. I do not keep my back issues, but a search of their website should result in some info. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 330 Registered: 4-2002 |
Arlie, Not quite a good analogy. Ferrari commissioned the building of GTO's in 1962-63 for the purpose of serious racing. The factory ordered that 32 be built. Each of those cars has a factory serial number and a known history from the day it left the factory. Just because you can take a Ferrari chassis and engine and lots of other authentic bits, and put them together with a body built on the original factory jigs and even crafted by the same men who built the originals does not mean you have a GTO. You may have an exact reproduction... but you dont have the real thing. You know this. There is no double standard. Shelby Cobras built as duplicates, even ones built by Shelby himself in modern times, do not come close to the values of the original cars from the 1960's. You can take a 1967 Corvette and put a correctly numbered 427 in it, but it still wont be a factory correct and numbered 427. I think you actually understand this very well, but you have a bit of a thing against rare, racing historied Ferrari's and perhaps against ol' Enzo himself. Thats not to say there is anything wrong with that. I love Ferraris and particularly the racing history and cars, but from everything I have ever read Enzo the man was a manipulative, egotistical megalomaniac. The stories of deliberate intrigue and manipulation sound like stuff you would expect from some Stalinist henchman. Not exactly an "honest" man in the traditional sense. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 196 Registered: 10-2002 |
Wm/Wayne et al. The "GTO" at the Greenwich Concours is I believe owned by John Mastrengello. (WM what car were you there with? I was there with either my Lola or my MK-IV) Carl these cars are around and I think your offer is right. You should be able to buy one. A friend of mine owns one that was done a long time ago really well. He has a huge collection including some major real cars. I'll ask him if he'd be interested in selling his. Best Jim | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 457 Registered: 5-2002 |
"even new these cars weren't bodied by "the factory." They were bodied by Pinin Farina, Scaglietti, Touring, etc. A car that has been rebodied with factory-comissioned one-off coachwork is completely different from somebody changing a 330 GT or 250 GTE into a GTO, TR, etc." I know that Ferrari did not make their own car bodies. As you said, Scaglietti, Zagato, Fantuzzi, etc built the bodies. Therefore, the MAJOR contributions from the Ferrari factory itself were the engine and frame. So if somebody takes a genuine Ferrari engine and frame and then mounts a body on it from one of the same coachbuilders that Ferrari used, how is it any different??? Because ENZO himself didn't lay his hands on the sheetmetal, then it isn't "PROPER". Seems like another glorious double standard in the collector car world. If Enzo ate turkey and dressing and cranberry sauce in November, it was called Thanksgiving dinner. If Joe Average ate turkey and dressing and cranberry sauce in November, it was called lunch. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 535 Registered: 8-2002 |
Wm, regarding the King Leopold cabriolets, there are two, both are black and both have altimeters: 0234AL 342 Cabriolet currently owned by Arthur Zafiropoulo of Atherton, CA. 0488AM 375 Plus Cabriolet currently owned by Wayne Gollomb (recently relocated to Montana from Illinois, I believe). Both own several Ferraris but Wayne doesn't seem like the type to own a replidoodad. Probably Arthur. BTW, Favre refers to (the late) William Favre of Switzerland who produced various replicars in the 1980's, usually 250 GTE based. Horsefly, even new these cars weren't bodied by "the factory." They were bodied by Pinin Farina, Scaglietti, Touring, etc. A car that has been rebodied with factory-comissioned one-off coachwork is completely different from somebody changing a 330 GT or 250 GTE into a GTO, TR, etc. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 329 Registered: 4-2002 |
$210K missing the good set of wheels is just nuts. Very top quality, "duplicate" GTO replicas should be around $150K. To be a duplicate it would of coarse have the right wheels... This car would seem to be at that level of quality, but minus the wheels. If I were in a position to make an offer, no way would I pay more than $135K for this car. I think that would be a very fair offer and I bet anyone like Sheehan or Rousch would agree. | ||
| wm hart (Whart)
Member Username: Whart Post Number: 627 Registered: 12-2001 |
Chris: (and Wayne) the guy that owned the king o' belgium's cabriolet (don't test me on serial numbers, its got the altimeter and looks like a pre-production 250) still owns a repro 250 GTO; he was slotted next to me at the Greenwich Concours, and when he pulled in, i thought it was real. It sounded unbelievable and, to my gto-untutored eye, looked pretty good. I had the impression the car was gettable. I have the concours book somewhere, to look 'em up, if Wayne doesn't know who i'm talking about. Also, and i guess this is for Wayne (or others), i have occasionally seen ads, as in FML for so-called "Le Favre" recreations or rebodies. Porquoi le favre, s'i vous plait? | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 503 Registered: 3-2002 |
OK LISTEN TO THIS BS! I spent most of the day doing research on this car. GOOD NEWS BAD NEWS Good news, the car is as represented. Overall an EXCELLENT recreation of a 330 GTO. No excuses. BAD NEWS! This car sold just 2 years ago for $125,000 with 3 sets of rims. The only positive change in the last 2 years is the engine, which has benefitted from a fresh rebuild (I do not consider maintenance costs as an add item when pricing a car, only deduct if it needs maintence). The car only has 2 sets of rims now, the most important set, the correct GTO track Borrani's are no longer with the car (these could run $7,500 or more for a set). This car is now owned by a dealer that has only been in business since 2001. The current asking price? $210,000! that is ridiculous! This is a $125,000 car LESS the price of the correct missing Borrani's! I hope this guy lives with this car a long time! I am just shocked that this guy is trying to make his year on one car, he was unapologetic when I spoke with him. Well back to the drawing board! | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 455 Registered: 5-2002 |
"The car was returned to the factory and sent out to Scaglietti to be rebodied into a one-off berlinetta." So the Ferrari factory did NOT actually rebody the car. It was rebodied by Scaglietti, one of the same coachbuilders that rebodied other cars also. So what's the big difference? In one instance, the rebody was done at the Ferrari factory's authorization; in another case it was done by an individual owner's blessing. Isn't that kind of like saying that a can of Coca Cola tastes better at a 5 star restaurant than a can of Coca Cola from the grocery store? | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 534 Registered: 8-2002 |
Martin, I'm not sure which car you're referring to but there have been many rebodies. The fact is, though, that the factory didn't body any of them. The individual coachbuilders did. A famous example would be s/n 0402AM, a 375MM PF Spyder owned by Italian film director Roberto Rossellini. The car was returned to the factory and sent out to Scaglietti to be rebodied into a one-off berlinetta. What we are talking about here, though, is a series production car that was produced in relatively large quantities being rebodied late in life and without the factory's blessing into a rare competition model. A fakey-do. Not at all the same thing. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1955 Registered: 9-2001 |
Chris There are some f-chat member in sarasota, maybe they could look at in person for you | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3414 Registered: 5-2001 |
BTW to these real/not real discussions: Ferrari themselves made re-bodies for some of their clients. Guy sends his XYZ to the factory for repairs and wants to get the newer body and they fit the new body on his chassis and send it back, sometimes even with the old cars VIN. I remember there was one story about a guy from Mexico that was running in the PanAm where they did that. That was a 250. Wayne? | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3413 Registered: 5-2001 |
Chris, hope you can strike a deal with the guy. If you want somebody to look over the car Paul S is in Sarasota and he is working wiht a Ferrari shop there part time so he can take a rid eout and look at it for you. PPI can be made at Lucianos as well. My race car is with Paul and Luciano at the moment. If you do decide you buy the car let me know when you get there and I would love to meet you in Sarasota. This car looks awesome and if I had the change right now we would be bidding against each other! | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 194 Registered: 10-2002 |
Cris To build this car today would cost at least $200,000. There are many cars racing in vintage events today that are much less real than this one. At least the body was made off the original buck by same people who pounded out the the real ones and the mechanicals are period correct. Any car is worth whatever you or someone else is willing to pay for it. How much will you enjoy owning and driving it should be IMHO the only consideration. If anyone is interested in a real one I know of two for sale asking $7,500,000 to $8,500,000. Enjoy your cars what ever they may be! Best Jim | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 75 Registered: 8-2002 |
i will say that while i still think 100k is a bit much for something that's not the genuine article, going through this thread and looking at the real mcoy that hugh linked, has stirred in me, a new appreciation for an older car... she really is quite stunning... thanks guys... | ||
| Howie/ExoticAutoBrokers.com (Brokerofexotics)
Member Username: Brokerofexotics Post Number: 274 Registered: 11-2001 |
Andrew - You are correct! It was built on a Datsun platform. And just like Anthony stated, while it's not a great knock-off, it was still quite stunning in person. | ||
| Anthony_Ferrari (Anthony_ferrari)
New member Username: Anthony_ferrari Post Number: 36 Registered: 11-2002 |
I wonder why they put those kind of wheels on? I would have thought the wheels would be one of the easier things to replicate. The door handles aren't right either. I still think it looks great though. | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 392 Registered: 10-2001 |
the one you posted ? yes ! the wheels , the proportions , the front air intakes are all wrong . It looks like a datsun or a fiero based replica ! Its one for Tom Cruise in vanilla sky ! | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 391 Registered: 10-2001 |
The ultimate GTO recreation must be the one that japanese collector have had built for him just so he did not have to use his real 330 GTO ! It was for sale last year at Los Gatos .. | ||
| Howie/ExoticAutoBrokers.com (Brokerofexotics)
Member Username: Brokerofexotics Post Number: 273 Registered: 11-2001 |
Andrew, Do you think it's that bad? | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 390 Registered: 10-2001 |
Not a bad one ?? please . | ||
| Howie/ExoticAutoBrokers.com (Brokerofexotics)
Member Username: Brokerofexotics Post Number: 272 Registered: 11-2001 |
The EBAY car is a recreation, not a replica. I wonder what FNA's reaction would be to such a car, even you it's a Ferrari under its' skin. This is a replica: (not a bad one either)..enjoy.  | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 406 Registered: 4-2002 |
Guys, you WILL NOT GET the real thing...wake up and smell the roses! as stated you would be looking at about 9 Mill. In those terms th ecar shown is probably the best you could hope for so 100K sound pretty damn cheap considering it is still based on a real F car not some multi national rubbish. It looks superb (apart from the wheels), its even got a real F 12 in there Geez what more do y'all want. | ||
| Anthony_Ferrari (Anthony_ferrari)
New member Username: Anthony_ferrari Post Number: 30 Registered: 11-2002 |
I like this quote from Mike Sheehan's article: "And when replica owners are asked, "Is it real?", they can take solace knowing that the owners of the real thing get asked the same question. They just have a different answer." | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 367 Registered: 1-2002 |
Chris- Good luck on the purchase! Let us know how it goes. | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 502 Registered: 3-2002 |
Wayne, somehow I knew I could count on you to help! email is [email protected] Thanks, Chris Parr | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 531 Registered: 8-2002 |
Ah ha. Chris Parr, right? Forza cover, right? I remember now. What is your email address? | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 530 Registered: 8-2002 |
Cmparrf40, the history that I posted here is only part of what I actually have on this car (I didn't want to bore everyone with an enormous post). If you provide your email address (and your real name), I will send you the rest. | ||
| Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member Username: Cmparrf40 Post Number: 501 Registered: 3-2002 |
What kind of idiot would buy this car? Well I just bid on this car............. I do not know where the reserve is, and will not complete the purchase until I get more information. I like running vintage rallys and this would be fun. I would also track it occasionally. I have not had the success I wanted trying to find a vintage formula car that did not reguire a crew of 15 people to operate. OK, it has been awhile since I have been abused on here! So I welcome your comments! as for price, well, if you punch this car, no big loss, hammer out the fender and move on. You could not build this car for anywhere near its last sale price. If you bought a 360 for 145,000, 10 years from now it is a 75,000 car. This car? who knows, but I would guess still 145,000 or so. You would never make money on this and it would be a long tough sale! This is certainly a car that price matters, I know where I am willing to go, but I will not go above that number! I will keep you posted......... ...a fool and his money are soon parted. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 528 Registered: 8-2002 |
Robodied cars like these make it possible for normal people like you and I to enjoy what is, for all intents and purposes, physically a GTO, SWB, Testa Rossa, or whatever. Do I think they are worth spending $100K-$200K on? Sure, but... personally, I would rather buy a nice Lusso or 275 GTB for that money and never have to answer that inevitable question. I would also like to add that donor cars for these projects are usually junk buckets that would otherwise end up dismantled for parts. It is rare for a decent, salvageable example to be sacrificed and, when that happens, it is definitely a shame in my opinion. As I've stated before when this topic has come up, I think Mike Sheehan sums it up best in this article: http://www.ferraris-online.com/Articles/SCM_0011.html | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 366 Registered: 1-2002 |
L. Wayne- In your professional opinion do you think a 'reobody' as good or better than this one should command a six figure sum? Bret- Your reasons are exactly why there are: gt40, 550 spyder, cobra, and more replicas on the market. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3020 Registered: 2-2001 |
If I had a real GTO ($10million car, you obviously have a few bucks) I would buy something like this just so when I wanted to drive it like I stole it I wouldn't worry about wrecking a one of 36, nearly priceless, automobile. | ||
| Jim E (Jimpo1)
Intermediate Member Username: Jimpo1 Post Number: 1021 Registered: 7-2001 |
Damn Wayne, I can't wait until you can do a history on my car in 20 years! | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 527 Registered: 8-2002 |
s/n 6689 GT, 330 GT 2+2 Series II 5spd. Sold new to Alfredo Cecconi in Italy, 1965. Sold to U.S. in 1973 and purchased by Michael Walther in 1987 as a base for GTO replica. Per M. Sheehan's records: "Aluminum hand hammered body off original GTO buck by Allegretti. 330 frame shortened to original GTO wheel base. 4 liter engine with all competition components, 6 dual Webers on high rise manifold. Dry sump, oil cooler and accu sump. Competition Ferrari 5spd transmission with straight cut gears. ATL fuel cell. Full roll cage integrated into construction. External electric shut-off and inboard fire system. Ferrari GTO components, lights, trim, 6 GTO racing Borrani wire wheels and 4 Borrani chrome wire wheels. Log book from SVRA and HSR, concours winner--Walter Mitty" Sheehan himself listed the car for sale in the FML from Spetember of 1998 to February 1999 for $145,000. Car sold on March 1, 1999 for an undisclosed six-figure amount. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 323 Registered: 4-2002 |
I have read in sports car market magazine of extremely well done "duplicate" 250GTO's selling for $150K - $200K. Certainly it would be very difficult to build one for that. Who knows to what level of duplication detail this one is under the skin. I would only pay that kind of money for one if it were indeed an nut and bolt duplicate identical to the real thing in every way but chassis number.... | ||
| stephen r chong (Ethans_dad)
Junior Member Username: Ethans_dad Post Number: 134 Registered: 3-2002 |
He stated 9million in his post. 100K seems like a deal ; ) | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 67 Registered: 8-2002 |
i agree with Hugh... 100k for a carbon copy is a little ridiculous... how much is the real thing...? | ||
| Joseph (Mojo)
Junior Member Username: Mojo Post Number: 147 Registered: 9-2002 |
Ya your right the wheels are all wrong. I wonder what correct wheels cost? | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 364 Registered: 1-2002 |
Starts at 100k; seems steep to me. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 321 Registered: 4-2002 |
I think its the Daytona wheels that make the side view look funny. I wonder why he didnt post photos of it with the Borranis, it would have looked much more "proper". I wonder what this thing would sell for? | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 363 Registered: 1-2002 |
ME TOO! Damn, thats an amazing copy! I'm assuming its powered bt the 330 donor chassis V12; great looking car. Compare it this real one: http://www.ferraris-online.com/cars/3387/3387a.html | ||
| Joseph (Mojo)
Junior Member Username: Mojo Post Number: 146 Registered: 9-2002 |
That is the coolest replica I have ever seen!!! I would be so proud to own that. I guess it's more of a rebody than a replica. | ||
| Vince (Manatee)
Junior Member Username: Manatee Post Number: 86 Registered: 6-2002 |
Someone put a lot of effort into that replica. There's something about the proportions of the side view that don't appear proper -- or maybe it's my old eyes of mine. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 320 Registered: 4-2002 |
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1873926211&category=6212 What do you guys think of this? Sure its a fake... but would you really be bothered by that fact when listening to the V12 howl through 7500rpm? I dont think it would be competitive in class in vintage racing (not in HSR at least) but it would sure be a fun toy! Terry |