| Author | Message | ||
| Mitchell Le (Yelcab1)
Member Username: Yelcab1 Post Number: 475 Registered: 11-2001 |
I have a permanent leak at the Shift Shaft Oring seal on my 308GT4. To fix it, I have to remove 2 oil pans, undo the engine mounts, tilt engine forward (maybe even undo some coolant hoses), and put in 2 Orings that will probably leak again. That is $50 worth of gaskets, $100 worth of oil, and a weekend worth of work, after I just spent six months rebuilding it. Well, I will live with the temporary fix for now (a large poster of the Nsynch boys under the car) | ||
| Ron R (Ronr)
New member Username: Ronr Post Number: 42 Registered: 10-2002 |
Guys, Thanks for the advice on the oil cooler hose. I'll definitely be fixing that. Pronto! And then, I believe, I'll be leak-free. | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Junior Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 88 Registered: 10-2002 |
Thanks to you all for such knowledgeable comparative analysis. So I take the answer as "In truth, Ferraris are in no way quite as leak-prone as some might like to think". Gratifying to know that, it really is. | ||
| Arnaldo Torres (Caribe)
Member Username: Caribe Post Number: 461 Registered: 2-2001 |
I second Ben's observations and those of others regarding non-leaking Ferraris. I have about 4.2 K mi. since the 30K major service which I personally performed on my 1990 TR, and the car is leak free. In fact, the car had only a small mist of oil around the front bottom of the Cam covers before the major service (20.4 K mi since new), but it never had oil on the garage floor. Since I bought it (18 months and 12 K mi. ago), I had only had a random minor leak coming from the clutch housing (aged sealing rings), and that was about a year ago. Perhaps it is the nature of the TR, but like I said, not all Ferraris leak! | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member Username: Benjet Post Number: 934 Registered: 1-2001 |
JRV, Doug O, and all, My Ferrari was on a lift a month ago for the very first time since it's 30k almost 2yrs and ~4.5k miles ago. Upon our initial inspection the former shop foreman of FSF (Ferrari San Francisco), now independent, could NOT believe how clean and spotless the underside of the drivertrain was (other than road dust/debris/grime in expected places). He was just amazed that there was no residue or weep-age present (the one expection will be noted below). My 30k was done by a very qualified Auth dealer tech, in a meticulous and methodical manner with the passion and knowledge that made me feel as though he was a doctor performing some kind of mechanical medicinal artistry. We did find a very small mess of gear oil on the underside of the gearbox. Which at very first glance we thought was a weepy shift shaft seal (very common issue with the TR design, correct JRV???), this was also replaced/refreshed in the 30k. After pulling back the outer seal, further inspection found it to be completely dry. Our second thought was that it came from the "seam" of the "transmission window" and the gearbox casting (this was also re-sealed at the 30k to check on the gears). After being cleaned off and rechecked over the course of the next few weeks, it was discovered that this came from a LOOSE hex sealing stud (freeze plug?) on the underside of the gearbox (which I would assume was not even touched in the 30k), which was then cleaned, tightend and properly sealed. So this MINOR weap was an easy fix and well again I have a leak free Ferrari. So they do exsist (leak free Ferraris). My daily driver (non-F car) leaks a bunch, but I don't feel like fixing those leaks. I can agree with JRV, but I can understand not wanting to fix little leaks that would take a major amount of work to deal with, that's your own preference. I have never had anything worked on by JRV and I've never met him, but I like his work ethic, and I'd expect a leak free Ferrari if it was serviced by him (from what I read here). I am not THAT familar with other cars (even F cars) and the various seals, gaskets, and other places that have common oil leaks, so there maybe other things to account for. I can only speak for my own. YMMV -Ben P.S. I can post pics if I need to futher explain my weap. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 348 Registered: 11-2002 |
Post # 69 >>>Do Ferraris bleed more than other comparable makes of cars, or are Ferraris more or less the same just like everybody else on this count?<<< HEY BEN, It's your turn, you said you were going to jump in...;-) Bret, See you got your sense of humor back..good for you ....one needs a sense of humor about these cars sometimes to keep from going crazy...lol. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 800 Registered: 12-2001 |
I would be willing to bet that newer f cars wont have the same oil leak issues our older ones do. Take a look at a 79 chev whatever. Holy sh*t talk about oil leaks. This applies to ford and mopars as well. All the older cars leak oil f car or not. Newer cars for the most part dont leak. The gaskets and sealing surfaces are better designed and its not offen I see cars coming in leaking. This same technology would apply to a 360. Many cars have re-useable trans pan gaskets and valve cover gaskets now, alot of nitrile o ring type intake gaskets and so on. We just need an aftermarket company to apply some of this technology to the repop ferrari gasket sets. And my 308 doesnt leak either, its been a year now. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3058 Registered: 2-2001 |
JRV that was a good commment, I had to laugh at myself, I knew what I was getting into when I bought it, sometimes I forget. Ferraris are more prone to leaking than other cars because they are so strung out. When you're trying to get 400hp out of a 3.6L engine there will be inherent problems (running hot, leaks, etc.). In the end it's worth it. I'd like to see how the 360s do when they get older, as of now I have yet to see one leaking to be honest. They would leak quite a bit less IMO if they ran chains instead of belts (take away 6 leak prone seals right there). | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Junior Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 87 Registered: 10-2002 |
Do Ferraris bleed more than other comparable makes of cars, or are Ferraris more or less the same just like everybody else on this count? | ||
| Mark (Markg)
Member Username: Markg Post Number: 323 Registered: 2-2001 |
I had to have the engine seal job re-done on my '82 308 after PO did it but then let it sit for 18 months. Oil was leaking onto exhaust manifolds (fire hazzard) and belts (big no-no). Now I only have a drop or two leak from pan/ gasket studs, will use the VW / Porsche sealed nuts. I now consider it to be virtually 'leak free' as this is my only leak zone. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 340 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>And another thing, they don't exactly give away Ferrari gasket sets so <<< Hey sport, Volkswagens are "The Peoples Car", not Ferrari's. ;-) | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3056 Registered: 2-2001 |
And another thing, they don't exactly give away Ferrari gasket sets so unless you cut your own gaskets (lowest I could find was $700 for the engine set), it's gonna cost you a couple bucks to pull apart half the engine to stop two drops of oil from appearing on the garage floor at night. Of course this is just an example, but you get the point. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3055 Registered: 2-2001 |
In an ideal world all leaks should be fixed, but do we live in an ideal world. Some of you may be so compulsive, but if you're dropping literally a two or three drops after parking the car each night, from say bellhousing seals on the bottom that connect the tcase and the engine/trans casting, you would be insane to pull apart the entire tcase, clutch pack, etc just to stop a couple small leaks with absolutely no consequences whatsoever to performance, reliability, safety, etc. Nor would three drops of oil from a cooling down car make your car unworthy of other people seeing it. I thought we established all this already. It would just be ludicrous to spend all that time to fix a problem which essentially did not exist. It would make infinitely more sense to wait until you had to do the clutch, etc in that area. Of course if the leak was getting worse and worse, then it would need some attention. Yes, there are simple leaks to fix like the oil pan studs. BUT there are also very time consuming leaks to fix which aren't detrimental at all to the car. Of course at your next service these leaks should be attended to, but until then just leave em alone. | ||
| Joseph (Mojo)
Junior Member Username: Mojo Post Number: 152 Registered: 9-2002 |
I think all leaks should be fixed, It would be hard for me to show my friends my new ferrari and feel proud if I know im leaving a puddle in there nice clean driveway, or have to say "I have to park in the street it leaks.  | ||
| Erik R. Jonsson (Gamester)
Junior Member Username: Gamester Post Number: 208 Registered: 11-2000 |
Number for a hose place in Costa Mesa I was given who makes hoses for Ferrari Service of Costa Mesa...714-546-9922. Somewhere less than $50 per hose. Call and send your hose to them for a rebuild. They ordered in the Metric Stainless Braided Ferrari type hose just for US! | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3724 Registered: 2-2001 |
Ron, The coupling or end is probably leaking where it is attached to the hose. Make plans to put a new one on ASAP. I wouldn't drive the car and I would replace the hose as soon as possible. They are quite expensive through Ferrari. Check the archives where some of the guys have had them made up at a hydraulic hose shop. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 336 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ron, those hoses blow without warning. Get a new hose and get it on the car before it blows out completely. | ||
| Ron R (Ronr)
New member Username: Ronr Post Number: 39 Registered: 10-2002 |
I have a really strange leak that I think I've identified on my 308. The lower hose from the oil cooler to the engine with the steel braid appears to be weeping. While looking for leaks this weekend, after cleaning up the primordial ooze from various spots, I wiped that particular hose down. After starting the car, and watching it, fresh oil started appearing through the steel braid. Seems pretty strange, but maybe that hose has broken down over the years from the inside, and it has become somewhat porous. Anybody seen that before? | ||
| Modified348ts (Modman)
Member Username: Modman Post Number: 417 Registered: 11-2001 |
A properly serviced car with given care and knowledge put to it should NOT LEAK! do you think your car is serviced to the best if it leaks? I feel the mechanic is not being paid enough or don't want to bother to do it right or just don't have the knowledge to do it right and I accept this as a fact since there are Ferraris that don't leak, sure it is rare but then again it is rare for a car to be serviced to its best potential from what I've experienced with the cars that I've owned and what I've seen from others. I totally agree with JRV on this and I damn wouldn't like oil in my garage floor. If I had a leaking car, it would be fixed, I've not a single drop of oil in my garage and that's the way I like it. When and if I sell my car at least when it gets inspected the buyer would know how well the car has been maintained. I know if I saw a leaking car, I would not buy it just from knowing the car was not serviced properly. If you want to buy a leaking car that's your deal, I'll buy the one that doesn't leak. From all the cars I've purchased from new to used, the ones that gave me problems were the ones that leaked, but not saying all cars that leaked are unreliable but saying it was my experience that the ones that leaked has had problems in the engine area. Oil in the engine area looks bad especially when it's caked on and especially in a Ferrari. Treat the car as if it was you, by the way you are what you drive in some sense. Past topic | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 334 Registered: 11-2002 |
Bob, I personaly feel cam seal leaks are risky, as well as cam belt drive gear seals and oil cooler hose ferrel leaks...probably others. Wayne mentioned an article in Forza on the subject, I didn't read it, but I'm sure it gives good info and should be used as a good guide for owners to go by. Back to 328's...Ferrari made major changes to cam seals and covers with the 308QV and forward to eliminate and/or drasticaly prolong leaks. With the new design there is no engineering or build quality reason for cam seals to leak between the 30K services. Sometimes under extreme use the seals may start weeping early (22K-25K). But properly installed seals shouldn't leak. If they do, some type of error occured during instalation. Yes I know what those errors are likely to be, because in my position I have come behind literally hundreds if not thousands of sub-standard repairs or service jobs and seen all the mistakes that have been made. Late model Ferrari's (83-up)are NOTHING like older Ferrari's in design, quality of engineering or build quality...they are far and away better. And they just don't need to leak. Now if someone gets in a hurry, isn't very clean, doesn't have any experience, has experience but didn't learn from prior mistakes...they will leak. I'm not sure why this took on such a bizzare life of it's own. The only reasons I can see would be perhaps do-it-yourselfers trying to justify not quite getting it right, or techs that charge money not wanting to be responsible for their mistakes in the charge as you learn scenario. Even if both are true or niether are true the one fundamental no one can change is cars don't care! When they are serviced/repaired right, they are right, when they are not, they stare right back wrong, and no amount of talking or writing will change wrong into right, it either is or it isn't. Close but no cigar is still wrong. But let's try to understand one thing, the car is not at fault or to blame. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3714 Registered: 2-2001 |
Guys I guess what this comes down to is that nobody knows it all. We are all in a learning process. So debasing a person because he doesn't have the knowledge isn't right. As also the guy who thinks he knows it all should listen to others as he may not "know it all." We are here on the F.C. to offer our help, give our opinions and seek help with our Tech. questions. Just a observation. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3051 Registered: 2-2001 |
On the topic of should I fix it, man could I have shown you guys an oil leak that falls into the "should be fixed" category before I pulled my engine apart. It was actually getting ridiculous. It reminded me of those total loss oil systems of like the late 1800s. It wasn't I should fix the oil leak, it was more like sweet goodness man, which do we fix first. | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
Member Username: Bobd Post Number: 827 Registered: 3-2001 |
JRV, I've got a feeling you do incredible work... you obviously share the passion for F-cars... and you take pride in the work you provide. You're a great assest to this site, many of us appreciate and respect your input. There are many well-intentioned people here who like to share THEIR expertise too... I'm sure you chuckle every day you read this free "expert" advice.  As it relates to this thread, are there any leaks that SHOULD cause concern? I have a 328 that leaks a drop a week... I know cambelts saturated in oil can cause major problems. Any particular areas that should raise a red flag? BTW, I hope you don't fade into the sunset.... stick around! Just be patient... there's a lot of other "experts" here too! | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 331 Registered: 11-2002 |
BobD, and Brett also I suppose. I get carried away sometimes...sorry....only the cars I work on should be leak free at the end of a service...because that's what I feel I should deliver if I'm going to be better than those that present leaky cars back after servicing.. If and when the day comes when I can no longer bring enough to the table to perform my job better than what I consider sub-standard non-Ferrari Quality standards, then I'll need to make other working arrangements. As far as your car goes, it's your car, your choice...won't bother me if it leaks like a sieve. But whether you like leaky Ferrari's or not has nothing to do with what this thread is about (reread the original question)...it's about the fact that they don't have to leak, and with the proper, experienced, serious, quality personell doing the work, they don't leak. There is more than one type of owner on here, when I take my time to post, I try to bring the highest common denominator of my 30+ years of experience to the table, not the lowest. Anyone that simply wants to know what they can get away with should probably avoid reading what I write, because it goes contrary to the tons of BS floating around. But don't worry, I'm sure I'll get distracted before long and slowly fade away into the sunset, then the Urban Legends and the hamhocks can make a resurgence. It'll be a nice cozy little place where running crappy and oil leaks up the butt are the norm. | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 463 Registered: 4-2001 |
Bob, not to try and speak for JRV, but some people have higher standards than others. Some people would also ignore the dripping kitchen faucet or the running toilet... | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
Member Username: Bobd Post Number: 826 Registered: 3-2001 |
JRV, you've mentioned small oil leaks should be fixed but you haven't told us WHY they should be fixed. If a car has a drop/week leak from the pan gasket or cam seal, why should it be fixed... outside of having to clean the spots off the floor once a month? Maybe you could help us understand the impact of this issue better if you told us WHY every leak should be fixed. What are the implications? Are some leaks worse than others? THX. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3042 Registered: 2-2001 |
I absolutely agree with you JRV which is why I'll be putting so much work into making sure mine doesn't leak again when it goes back together. It's such a pain in ass when it leaks and cakes everything with that petrol based mud. I was thinking more along the lines of from Ferrari SPa they tend to leak, I don't think the factory really seals them as well as they could, plus DOHCs have a lot of places to leak. It's such a relief working on a car that doesn't leak, owning one is even nicer. Plus, my opinion is obviously swayed a bit because all I see are Fcars that come in with leaks, etc. Why would anyone bring a perfectly running, no leak, car to get serviced... | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 843 Registered: 8-2002 |
I agree JRV. Leaks should be stopped. I have a cam seal leak on the 308 that I am waiting until the major service in a few weeks. If I did not have the major coming I would have had it fixed sooner. They may leak, but they are fixable. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 322 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>DOHCs have a lot of places to leak though so I feel it is inevevitable. << Bret..yes you are right, eventualy and "hopefully temporarily" they will leak..however read Iron Joe's comments....and mine again...yes they will develop leaks over time/use. The point is the leaks can and should be stopped.....they don't have to just leak because they can't be fixed. Like Iron Joe points out...they will only continue to leak if you let them....the single biggest cause of a leak that supposedly can't be fixed is lack of knowledge and or experience on the part of the person with the responisibility to 'fix' the leak issue, not the car. So sure, you make a good point, cars break, then we fix them and move on. It's a continuing cycle, and prolonging the negative event cycles is what good mechanics are all about...go back to the "I'm Now a Mechanic Handbook" and read the job description one more time...;-). I'm glad to see some of you guys with plenty of experience stepping up with a few liras worth of comments. I've always felt that the biggest negatives about Ferrari's were the false negative 'Urban Legends' perpetuated by talking heads with little or no real experience on the playing field of professional service and repair. | ||
| joe saldana (Ironjoe)
Junior Member Username: Ironjoe Post Number: 139 Registered: 12-2001 |
JRV,GOOD MAN,been using them squishers for evrything,guys dont forget Three-Bond.. n squeaky clean surfaces.....a Ferrari or a Porsche will only leak if you let it ( ah,I even take pride in having a few 74' 911'S that didnt leak after proper T.L.C........ | ||
| Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Junior Member Username: Jh280774 Post Number: 133 Registered: 9-2001 |
Thank god my 348tb 1990 (the early production year you should stay away from ) never leaked in any way. When I bought the car it had several small flaws as to be in concours condition but now it has become better and better. Especially the engine works and flows very smooth. After one and a half year I can say that car is equally reliable as my BMW daily car. Con saluti cordialissimi, Jens Haller | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3029 Registered: 2-2001 |
If it doesn't leak now, it will be in due time. Any car that you rev the sh_t out of, especially routinely, will leak eventually, I can promise you that. JRV is hitting a lot of special prolongers though that spread the leaks further apart than normally. Ferrari's got pretty good tolerances for that stuff though compared to other exotics. It's quite a bit more rare to get a Ferrari in with an uneven gasket surface, etc. DOHCs have a lot of places to leak though so I feel it is inevevitable. My favorite though is Bentley (pushrods for the most part), which in certain areas uses no gasket and expects the ocean wavelike aluminum pieces they turn out to fit together with a touch of sealer, and not leak. Right... | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3705 Registered: 2-2001 |
Yasir, After reading your last post I would say you have a definete problem in deciding what and when you want it. Not to mention how far a dealer is from you. UH, Good Luck..... | ||
| yasir saifullah (Yasir)
New member Username: Yasir Post Number: 13 Registered: 7-2002 |
Magoo, It's not practical at this time of my life but i never said i would never buy a Ferrari.I will,and thats why i am spending all this time here chatting with you all trying to educate myself.My problem is i want 288 GTO (yeah who doesn't) but there's no way possible i can buy that car anytime soon so what shall i do.I like 355 GTS too but i want to know all about these cars before i take the plunge.As i have said earlier,buying a Ferrari is not a problem ,alteast not for me,but it's few other issues like how far the Dealer is & the things i need to know about these babies prior to purchase,are keeping me from buying one at this time . Later, Yasir | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 320 Registered: 11-2002 |
or shop till ya drop on this site, they have standard & metric. http://www.sealtightsolution.com/nuts.htm | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 319 Registered: 11-2002 |
Here is a pic of a simular product. Did a search with aol engine, typed in, 'self sealing nuts'. http://www.amerubberproducts.com/nuts.htm | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 318 Registered: 11-2002 |
Here is where I (and FoH) actually buy almost all fasteners and the 1000's of other misc. parts and pieces and a co. that split from Wurth called Winzer Products, can't find a website for Winzer, but it's essentialy a carbon copy of Wurth.. http://www.wurth.com/ | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3692 Registered: 2-2001 |
Yasir, Not to be rude but you have already shown that the Ferrari is not practical. So now that you won't be getting one, look at all the fun you will be missing. | ||
| yasir saifullah (Yasir)
New member Username: Yasir Post Number: 12 Registered: 7-2002 |
Is there any particular reason why a Ferrari leaks oil or shall i say "should leak oil". I mean i have a 94 Supra TT 6-speed with 20K miles and it has never leaked oil not even a drop,so why should a Ferrai. Later, Yasir | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 316 Registered: 11-2002 |
don't have a part # guys...you can call it in with description '6mm self sealing nuts' or give these guys a try>>>> http://www.longlok.com/ | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 425 Registered: 6-2001 |
360- no leaks (but it's still a toddler) Dino- minor leak, diminished to almost nothing by switching away from synthetic & back to regular oil | ||
| Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member Username: Benjet Post Number: 931 Registered: 1-2001 |
JRV - Before I jump into this thread with my comments (which I will try to do soon), maybe a picture of said nut with squash/sealing ring would be helpful for those that need it, might help them locate or ask for the right item at a bolt and nut supply house or the like. -Ben | ||
| Greg Owens (Owens84qv)
Member Username: Owens84qv Post Number: 572 Registered: 10-2001 |
I second that "need a VW part number"...but I will check the web... | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 776 Registered: 5-2002 |
would love a VW part number. | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 775 Registered: 5-2002 |
I got to look it up,but I remember a quote from Enzo from th 60's that when asked about his cars leaking oil all over the track his response was something like "as long as it finnishes the race before it runs out". I got to find it.A lot of my stuff is boxed waiting to be moved. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 304 Registered: 11-2002 |
Jim, Also, wasn't the Daytona winning Daytona's engine taken apart and re-done by Holman & Moody?.....so us American guys can run with the big dogs....whenever we want to/get the chance....;-)... for me....I like being smarter than a doorknob, so that I can make it work. That was the saying the germans used all the time when describing how to permanently fix design or build flaws. So sure in ones carreer as a professional, personal & national pride comes to bare in the persuit of being smarter & better (in a manner of speaking) than the guys that built it in the first place. Seeing the problem and more importantly what to do about solving it, is what the game is all about. ;-) | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 458 Registered: 4-2001 |
Yep, that's it... Funny thing is that in it's day, it was so classified that they would clear extra personal from the area when they would take off... Now it's like a classic car on display. Let's see, I think the SR-71 would look great sitting next to the Mig-23, no wait maybe we should move the B-24 over there... | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 208 Registered: 10-2002 |
Dave I probably have the name wrong. The one I'm referring to is very long,black and pointed. SR-71? You can see it on the deck of the Intrepid. The person who told me about it is Clay Lacy. I think there's one at the museam in Tuson as well. | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 456 Registered: 4-2001 |
Jim, I'm not familiar with the SX-71... I do know of the early YF-12A which in later incarnates became the SR-71. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 207 Registered: 10-2002 |
JRV You bring up another interesting point. Even Ferrari's engineering can be improved. The techniques you describe and others try work and work well. The fastest 512M ever built was reengineered by Mark Donohue using Traco (A southern Calif. engine builder known for their work on Small block chevys; they built the orininal engine in my Lola which was a Donohue/ Pensky car.) Pensky/Donohue changed many things including the body, suspention, and brakes and their 512M was much faster than the factory cars. Modern knowledge improves things as well. The mag transmition case in my P4 is so porus that it seeped oil. When we freashened it we coated the inside with a yellow epoxy product that they use on the inside of the 333 trans. It doesn't seep any more. It's great that you pass along the things you've learned over the years. Not everyone does. Thanks Jim | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 301 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>VW oil pump nuts with the red sealing ring?<< Greg, Dealers might not have 'old Bug' parts on the shelf, but they may or try somewhere like www.performanceproducts.com or do a web search for Old Bug Repair/Racing Shops/Suppliers. I get my hardware from a large Euro Hardware Supply co. that doesn't sell to the public. The nuts are metric of course, black oxide with a red nylon squash ring on one side, they come in 3 metric sizes, *6mm (early VW oil pump/308pan)* 8 mm (late oil pump) 12 mm (case studs). Like magoo describes, remove a couple nuts & washers, clean and install with the red sealing squash ring to the pan side. These are sealing nuts, not locking nuts. Jim, I fully agree with you that many leaks are designed in, and exotic high revving, high output machines are put to stress loads that induce leaks for a wide variety other of reasons as well. However, this thread started with asking about a low mileage non-stressed modern era Ferrari. So the answer was no, they shouldn't leak, really. Now if you take that same car and only drive it hard and put it up wet mile after mile, stress it out continually and even run it on the real hot side a few times, leaks can be induced that might be real hard to stop or cost prohibitive to deal with. But in the context of the original question, I'll stand by my original 'virtually leak free' statement. I have white shiny epoxy painted floors in my shop the same as in aircraft hangers, for the same reasons. When a car is parked, anything that migrates it's way to the ground can be seen, noted, inspected, assessed and dealt with. You have guys that do this so you know that catching things early is half the battle with the other half always knowing where on the playing field one stands thus giving insight into the options. I didn't understand how deeply ingrained and passionately perpetuated and defended the *Urban Legend* of "they're all like that" would be in a case like this. To me I see the 'they're all like that' simply as an excuse to avoid doing things right in the first place, or avoiding the responsibility of fixing ones mistakes after the fact. As you pointed out, there are exceptions, and I don't worry in many cases about Race Engines or Tranny's that weep, but I don't think exceptions apply in a seal or gasket issue on a late model street Ferrari, even one being driven as intended. Especially with very few miles since the seals should have been replaced. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3677 Registered: 2-2001 |
Unusual, but good John. | ||
| John Delvac (Johndelvac)
Junior Member Username: Johndelvac Post Number: 175 Registered: 11-2001 |
No leak on mine. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3674 Registered: 2-2001 |
Good idea greg. The only problem is that the leaking is persistent and bypasses the washer where it meets the case. Maybe another type of washer along with the red seal nut would do the job. Nylon, copper, lead????? | ||
| Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member Username: Dapper Post Number: 409 Registered: 4-2002 |
My 348 doesn't leak at the mo, it did shortly after buying it, drive shaft seal (but then it had been sat for years). | ||
| Greg Owens (Owens84qv)
Member Username: Owens84qv Post Number: 571 Registered: 10-2001 |
JRV, Any VW dealership will have these VW oil pump nuts with the red sealing ring? Worth a try as long as they are metric. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 206 Registered: 10-2002 |
Some cars and airplanes for that matter will always leak. Their design dictates that they will. As JRV has pointed out much study and cleverness can fix many leaks but some are designed in. For example the SX-71 (There's one on the deck of the Intrepid Aircraft Carrier Museam in NY harbor) was designed to fly at the edge of the atmosphere at very high speeds. As the plane reached speed it expanded considerably. ( The Concorde expands 11 inches in flight!) When they fueled the SX-71 fuel poured out onto the runway. When it took off it heated up and sealed. My Duesenberg leaks oil and there is no way to fix it as it has no rear seal. It has a worm gear that slings oil back into the crankcase. It also has an oil change system that is way cool. Put a pan under the car,(In 1931 they probably didn't) throw a lever and the oil drains out. Add 12 quarts of 50W Castrol and you're good to go. Some Race cars are a bit like the SX-71. Sometimes the different parts; iron block,alum bellhousing, mag trans case expand at different rates and the gaskets only seal when they all get good and hot. My Mk-IV drips a little trans fluid when it cools down. It also drips oil as the mag dry sump pan has to mate to the iron block and until they get hot the gasket doesn't seal. As it holds 20 quarts and was able to run almost 3000 miles in 24 hours without needing to add oil this doesn't seem to be a problem. The trans, a racing ZF, in my Lola leaks a few drops at the linkage seal and Roy Buttfoy RBT transmitions who ownes the rights to those ZF's, he also makes the box in the street Shaleen S7 and the new Ford GT, told me when they cool down the racing ZF's will always leak at that point. He sent me a new seal anyway, I repalced it, it still drips when cold. Parking on a clean surface,that's why aircraft hangers are painted with gloss floors, allows you to see a leak and determine what's causing it and if it is getting worse. My new Maserati CambioCorsa Coupe doesn't leak but after 300 miles it doesn't start either. The computer thinks I should be imobilized. Hopefully WWOC will figure it out. | ||
| Norman Yung (Storminnormin)
New member Username: Storminnormin Post Number: 19 Registered: 7-2002 |
My 550 does not leak, although other minor things have happened. But it does not leak. Not yet. | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Junior Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 62 Registered: 10-2002 |
My 456 does not leak. Touch wood. Regards to all. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 300 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>I hope the work I do on my own cars will someday be this good. << Having goals is a great place to start. In fact it's where I started. Being as good as or better than those teaching me. Fortunately through dedication, understanding and hard work it's worked out that way. Dreams can come true, it's fantasies that can't come true. So when I dream it's about being better tommorow than I was today or yesterday. So for me, with having that type of goal, an oil leak is no big deal....just another chance for improvement. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 336 Registered: 4-2002 |
Sure, You can go after every little oil leak and ensure it never leaks oil. You can also spend $20K a year on maintenance. If I had any oil leaks that presented any real problem, or were in any real quantity I would of coarse fix them. However for a very minor leak from an area difficult to reach, I dont bother as I'm just not that rich and/or anal. My 911 has a very small oil leak on the timing chain cover to case seal. To fix it would require removing and disassembling the engine. I guess I could drop the $5K or so to fix this oil leak, but given its only a drop or so every few days I believe I can live with it. My 308 leaks even less oil and I can live with that too rather than start throwing hours or dollars out the window in some crazed quest for total perfection. I havent "accepted" anything. Im just in touch with the reality of not being among the super-rich. My cars run and drive great, I dont skimp on important maintenance. JRV Im glad your standard of work is so high none of the cars you ever work on ever leak any oil afterward. Ever. I hope the work I do on my own cars will someday be this good. | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 321 Registered: 1-2002 |
I can think of 2 reasons not to fix a leak. 1. Takes a lot of time and/or money. 2. It will come back shortly anyway! | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3667 Registered: 2-2001 |
The oil pan leaks on 308s is due to the oil passing around the threads of the pan studs and seeping out around the nut and washer. The leak is not necessarily the gasket. I found that if you remove the nuts and washer one at a time and clean the stud with brake kleen then dry and coat with Permatex no. 2 and then replace the washer and nut, this will stop the leak. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 296 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>Sorry guys, I'm with JRV on this one... >>> If people have to appologize for agreeing with high standards of quality I must be in the wrong place....:-(... | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 450 Registered: 4-2001 |
Sorry guys, I'm with JRV on this one... an engine is an engine Ferrari or not. If you have an oil leak why not fix it. The previous owner of my 308 said the same thing, all Ferrari's leak oil... Knowing better, I cleaned the engine and fixed the leaks. | ||
| william speer (Wspeer)
Junior Member Username: Wspeer Post Number: 106 Registered: 8-2002 |
i was told long ago, "if your ferrari doesn't leak, then you know that your car needs to have oil added". i think that it is common knowledge that these cars are notorious for leaking. neither my testarossa nor dino leaks. however, my jaguar mkii leaks like crazy, go figure. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 295 Registered: 11-2002 |
Bruno, yep...the pan gaskits do leak, even new ones unless the design characteristics are overcome. The oil will chase the threads of the pan studs...threads only have a 75% (max) surface contact....leaving a nice weep hole to the nuts. The fix is to use VW oil pump nuts with the red sealing ring. Works like a charm. | ||
| william speer (Wspeer)
Junior Member Username: Wspeer Post Number: 105 Registered: 8-2002 |
i was told long ago, "if your ferrari doesn't leak, then you know that your car needs to have oil added". i think that it is common knowledge that these cars are notorious for leaking. neither my testarossa or dino leaks. however, my jaguar mkii leaks like crazy, go figure. | ||
| Joseph Caretti (Pino)
Junior Member Username: Pino Post Number: 115 Registered: 4-2002 |
"Then again, a Jaguar that did not leak oil would be some kind of freak worthy of intensive Govt. study." -Or out of oil. Doug: as JRV mentioned, perhaps someone took a shortcut? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 294 Registered: 11-2002 |
Terry, Sorry to hear you have accepted living with a leaky Ferrari, but that certianly doesn't mean everyone has to. Seals shouldn't leak...and new ones don't, unless there is a problem! Same applies to gaskits! You ever stop and think that many Ferrari owners have very high expectations when they 'pay someone' to "FIX" (not just work on) their Ferrari? Well my friend they do, and when they get BS for their money instead of results, they find themselves faced with choices that have to be made. Accept the BS or find someone that can get the job done in a manner befitting Ferraris. | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 772 Registered: 5-2002 |
holy dyslexia (leak=elak) | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 771 Registered: 5-2002 |
All of my Fcars have a slight leak some where.My 308 will elak from pan gasket no mater how many times you change it the leak will return eventually.When I say leak not a puddle on floor just wet with oil to the touch.After a 30k I would not expect the cam seals to be leaking right away. | ||
| Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member Username: Tspringer Post Number: 332 Registered: 4-2002 |
JRV, do you make your living replacing leaking seal and other parts of Ferraris? ;) My 308 leaks a VERY tiny amount of oil from either a distributor seal or a rear cam seal. However, it amounts to about a drop of oil every week. Not enough to worry about. As Wayne says, read the article its excellent. In a nutshell, many minor oil leaks are not a big deal. My 911S leaks a bit of oil too. Every Jaguar I ever owned leaked it. Then again, a Jaguar that did not leak oil would be some kind of freak worthy of intensive Govt. study. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 290 Registered: 11-2002 |
Seals shouldn't leak, when they do it's time for a new seal/seals. They should have replaced "all" the seals on a 30K...mandatory imo. Although we just discussed how some try to take 'shortcuts' and why that's not a good idea with Ferrari's. Ferrari's should be virtually leak free when serviced properly and leak prone areas are updated and brought current. | ||
| L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member Username: Lwausbrooks Post Number: 542 Registered: 8-2002 |
See recent two-part article in Forza magazine regarding which leaks are "good" leaks and which are "bad" leaks. | ||
| Tillman Strahan (Tillman)
Junior Member Username: Tillman Post Number: 207 Registered: 11-2001 |
Yep. My 328. But I can't take credit, Dan did all the work on it and made it right. Of course, now I've cursed myself and oil will be all over the garage tomorrow morning | ||
| Michael N. (Man90tr)
Member Username: Man90tr Post Number: 739 Registered: 4-2001 |
No. | ||
| Doug O (Little_o)
New member Username: Little_o Post Number: 26 Registered: 6-2002 |
Six months into the Ferrari experience. Just love the car. Just had a dealer 30k service at 11,000 miles when purchased. Car leaks oil at the left front cam seal. Is there such thing as a leak free Ferrari? |