| Author | Message | ||
| V.Z. (Ama328)
New member Username: Ama328 Post Number: 48 Registered: 11-2002 |
Joe Public $$:............MY hard earned $$: $25k - crap................Mondial/400 $45k - Bimmer-3.........412, 328 GTB/S $60k - Bimmer-5/........old TR, maybe Boxer ...Jag $80k - Jag,Bimmer/......512TR, hi miles 355, Boxers ...Porsche,(who cares... ...what model) $100k - why waste.......456, 355, ...the $$ $100k+ forget it..........Current Ferrari stuff. If Ferrari goes down the toilet, guess i'll spend the next 20 yrs buying up stuff made in the 1980s-2002, plus a smattering of 1970s goodies. This stuff's pretty much fast enuf for me at this point, and there's enough nifty styling/grunt with Fcars up to now to keep me occupied for however many decades i have left. One thing i don't see mentioned in car mags/forums, etc., is now that basic cars have gotten to the point where they get the job done, ride ok, last a long time, then what else is there? For me, it's styling/design/engineering, and Ferrari has what i'm lookin' for more than anybody out there. If they lose that, i'll never buy new, and just stick with the older stuff. | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Junior Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 105 Registered: 10-2002 |
For a start, I would have thought that "standard" Ferraris should at least be on par with "standard" Lambos in terms of pure performance and bhps. The Lambos generally have bigger engines just in order to outdo the Ferraris. Perhaps Ferrari can also make it the other way round? I know, it is not the only thing that counts, but it is certainly one of the most important things that count. | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1604 Registered: 9-2001 |
IMHO a great business solution for Ferrari would be to create the Alfa-Maserati-Ferrari Group. The Alfas would all be 6 cylinders, the Maseratis eights and the Ferraris all twelves. You would mass produce the Alfas in volume with the Ferraris only making 1500 cars a year or so. The Maseratis would be somewhere in the middle. They could share a lot of unseen components for production economy. That would give people a chance to "move up" with Italian cars , but still keep Ferraris exclusive. Altough I have owned two V8 Ferraris a/k/a Dinos,a 328GTS and a 348 Spider and I loved them and I realize that the new 360s are GREAT performing cars, I still acknowledge that the 3 series Ferrari has cheapened Ferrari somewhat. ALL Ferarris should be "top of the line" exotics, not a range of cars as it is now. Just my humble opinion, what say you guys. | ||
| Joseph (Mojo)
Junior Member Username: Mojo Post Number: 178 Registered: 9-2002 |
I want one of these GM owned ferrari's everyone is talking about. Big engine, big torque, great looks. Sign me up, I know it's all ego, oh well.  | ||
| PSk (Psk)
New member Username: Psk Post Number: 6 Registered: 11-2002 |
Actually I would rather see the brand die gracefully than become another label to be plastered on a car that GM (or somebody else) is having trouble selling. Same goes for Alfa Romeo, where they are rumoured to be getting a GM v6 for 2004. Just let the brand die, let it be remembered for the wonderful (some of it) past. Look at how the English used their brand names like whores and thus made them all look like cheap rubbish. Look at what they are doing with Jaguar ... rebadged Ford Mondeo's with Ford motors, might be a great car but not a Jaguar, with all the pompt and British stature! Pete | ||
| No! (Racer001)
New member Username: Racer001 Post Number: 5 Registered: 12-2002 |
If anything I'd like too see Ferrari live on... even if it means GM ownership... | ||
| PSk (Psk)
New member Username: Psk Post Number: 5 Registered: 11-2002 |
Okay while I very much agree that with the comments that Enzo built the magic image of Ferrari. He did this by creating an image of 'are you good enough to own one of my cars', not that his cars were the best. This sort of attitude is like a desire-ability magnet. Ferrari has changed since Enzo's passing, and one can witness the brand becoming more and more too interested in volumes of units it sells per year, etc. This has to happen in the modern world, but is slowly under cutting what Ferrari is all about. Ferrari used to not give a toss about his road cars, as they were an end to a means to keep on winning on the race track ... thus people bought them to share in his one eyed passion with racing, to dream about sliding through corners like Phil Hill, etc. and to believe they were good enough to own a Ferrari. If Ferrari stopped racing in F1, would people still buy them?. It would change my attitude, as it would just be another brand of car. If Ferraris were as common as Toyota Corollas would people stop buying them?, ofcourse they would, people do not buy Toyota Corollas now if they want to be different ... and most Ferrari owners (and Alfa owners) want to be different. If Ferraris were as easy and practical to drive as Toyota Corollas would people buy them?, No. Look at the failing of the Honda NSX. Again you are supposed to be good enough to be able to handle and drive a Ferrari, no the other way around. If they made a real entry level car, it would kill the brand, look what harm the 924 Porsche did to Porsche, look what harm the Boxter has done to the Porsche imagine ... might have sold many but they do not maintain the racing imagine of Porsche of old ... a hair-dressers car. If a Ferrari had another manufacturers engine, would you buy one? ... I wouldn't, as it would not have the right design focus, normal things would have been put first, like fuel economy and build cost for making 1,000,000 a week, etc. This is not what I look for in a Ferrari genes. Will Ferrari survive the 'what looks like a boring automotive future'?, where safety and conforming seem to be where we are going. I do not think so. I do not even think manufacturers like Fiat, Alfa Romeo, Saab and other individual manufacturers are boring enough for the future. If GM has more than here is a bucket of cash to go and play with influence on Ferrari, the gene poll has been lost, but as I stated above I am not sure that a brand like Ferrari has a place in the future anyway. Pete | ||
| pete (Pete_peter)
New member Username: Pete_peter Post Number: 1 Registered: 12-2002 |
what's a fervette | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
Junior Member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 64 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ah yeah, E Types. My first Road & Track has an E Type on the cover. Setting points with a matchbook cover? Where were the ECUs? At least one of my kids asked for The Doors Anthology Set - all studio recorded CD's - for Christmas. Maybe I have made headway! Will | ||
| john beaucher (Spider348)
New member Username: Spider348 Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2002 |
Will, You sound like me. Telling my kids about past music, cars etc. The good old days. Yes, I am old enough to recall, as a young enthusiast, reading about, and rarely seeing, Ferrari legends like Villeneuve, Scheckter, Lauda etc etc etc. Visiting the local, if I recall correctly, VW/ Audi/ Porsche dealer to see the odd 911, if any were in stock. Remember then? Triumph, MG, Austin-Healey, Fiat, etc all in business, selling wonderful sportscars. XKE Jags. Will, I type far too slow to list any of the great cars and memories. Porsche 911's with twin triple weber carbs. Ferraris with banks of weber carbs. Sounds no Ferrari can match today. Wonderful, raw automotive power. Thanks for the brief trip down memory lane. John | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
Junior Member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 63 Registered: 11-2002 |
Those of us in our 40's and 50's and who were lucky enough to read Road & Track or live near a road track, Chinetti's place, etc. have a datapoint on Ferrari that is probably different than you young guys. Our first exposure to Ferrari wasn't a poster of a naked woman lying alongside a 308 - it was reading about the Euro-racing scene and savoring road tests. In my case I can recall R&T stating they had a blowup of a Daytona speedo on the office wall as that was as fast as they had ever gone in a street car I believe. I recall a test comparing a Dino to a 911S and stating they were both prime steak but one just a bit tenderer. A road test of a 330GTS sticks in my mind with a great rear quarter top down view. The Ford - Ferrari fight in real time not as history. Those were the days when the legacy was made. I used to have my dad take me to the local Porsche dealer to just look at the curve of the 911 front fender. The nearest Ferrari dealer was Chinetti and too far for me to get a ride. Seeing my first Muira, Cobra, 166 - now that was special and those were truly limited and exclusive. To me Enzo lives on in many ways. I have a portrait of him in my front foyer so my sons can see him and remember his philosophy every day they leave my place. "better to crash pushing for first than drive the ••••• home for second". Not a bad life philosophy either in my opinion. I have to admit I am losing some faith in Ferrari when the radio has to stream "Ferrari" when you fire up. The raw visceral new Ferrari may be gone forever especially with the introduction of the automatic transmission (F1). Will Any other old timers have similar experiences? | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 141 Registered: 8-2002 |
WMontgomery pretty much shut me up on this... his point came clearer than any other. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3760 Registered: 2-2001 |
DITTO, JAY...... | ||
| J. Grande (Jay)
Member Username: Jay Post Number: 892 Registered: 10-2001 |
Guys, Ferrari does have entry level cars...they are called 308's, 328's and even 348's. No need to make a new entry level car. I don't want to see a Ferrari in every drive way like BMW's and Mercedes or even Corvettes! | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
Junior Member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 62 Registered: 11-2002 |
No matter how you cut this cake - whoever owns Ferrari, what the lineup looks like, how high the prices go, how low the quality goes, whether they win or lose races, whether they buiild Maseratis or not, even if they quit painting them Rosso Corsa - Ferraris will always sell because Enzo made the name magic - synonomous with being rich and going fast and associated with kings, princes and princesses (and playboys). Do you see Ferrari advertising in order to sell cars? Why waste the money? You're lucky if you can even get a Ferrari brouchure when you even buy one or even further - the privilege to buy one. They did send out a Maserati flyer though - at least I got one. Let's face it, there are enough purely objective negatives about Ferraris that are stated here over and over again, day in and day out, that anyone with half a brain would say to hell with these things, I want a better car and better dealership network for my money. Since it is named Ferrari though and has a legacy that appeals to each of us in different ways we choose to overlook those things. The continuance of high revving engines, the gated shift and the sound is mostly what keeps us hooked I believe. Sure as hell wasn't two decades worth of F1 Championships! To say that all Ferraris are beautiful Italian art and that is why we buy them is crap as well as they have made some pretty ugly cars over the years by anyone's standards. But even the ugly ones have and loyal followers. Why? The name tag, simple and probably because even a $20,000 beater is related to the GTO and the Enzo in the eyes of the admiring public. Maybe Enzo was a marketing major after all. Will | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 422 Registered: 3-2002 |
Nebula Class, I think you just described a Corarri or Fervette... An Italian Corvette if you will... And yes... I'd get one... And with twin turbos, you can get 400bhp easy... Here is an idea... Make entry level Fcars, as well as a sport wagon, not a Cayenne killer, but a fighter... and make the big shot Fcars MORE exclusive... in other words make them worth $250,000+/-... Entry Level car: A convertable soft top coupe w/ removable hardtop... Mid mounted engine, rear wheel drive... $55k-$65k... Think Corvette/Z4/Boxster S fighter Torquey 4000cc DOHC V8 w/ 8000 RPM redline... 400bhp... 100bhp/liter, but give it a low torque curve as well... Six speed gated manual tansmission... F1 shift option... same tranny though... Don't go too crazy with the carbon fiber as it's exotic and costs more... a little is fine... maybe for the hardtop (which should be optional as well since you have your rag top)... A sounds system should be added but nothing fancy like DVD Navigation systems and such... power windows and locks... This would be a base model @ $55k or so (this is w/o the optional hardtop, F1 shift, etc...) Make a factory upgraded version... A 'ZO6' if you will... ;) This one will come with the removable hardtop and next gen. F1 shift system as standard gear. Give it bigger brakes, better rubber, stiffer suspension, and replace more parts with a carbon fiber diet... make it a bang for your buck... but still a bit exclusive at $65,000+ ... Now for the sport wagon... the emphasise here is on sport... not some much utility... this is not an SUV... and it would be a two door 2+2 not a full four seat, four door... It is too have a small bed.... think half the size of the smallest pick up out there... add some kind of midgate like those new Caddy trucks have... and cover the small bed up... Think of it almost as a Australian sport ute with half the bed and a midgate.. uhh... 'thing'... It would not be lifted either... think... umm... sport wagon but with out a top over the rear... just a small bed that's covered... No it's not a truck... Price it at $50k or so... Front mounted V8... like the one in the entry level car but more torquey with out such a high redline... maybe 6,700 RPMs or so... Keep this as light as it can be as well, but not to the point where the car.. err... wagon costs too much because of exotic materials... Now as for the 'real' Ferraris... They need be more exculsive... All of these, except for maybe something like the Enzo, should have convertable hardtops. They should all come with a sequential 7 speed... keep the clutch pedal though... and leave the stick there... so it's like a race car... Just move the stick up and you get a higher gear... move it down and you'll get a lower gear... Now with this same transmission give an option of F1 paddle shifters... but keep the clutch pedal... this will give you the freedom of power shifting and make it a sequential manual, not a sequential auto slush box... 1. A 2 door, 2 seater... mid mounted V10... 10,000+ RPMs... 500bhp or so... give it a good top end Think of it between what the current V8 360 represents and the V12 Enzo... 2. This would be a modern 288 GTO or F40... take car #1 and give it the torquey V8 but at 4500cc capacity... keep the compression ratio lower and re-enforce the whole block and internals... add different heads with more aggressive cams and more hemispherical combustion chambers and wild valves... this puppy would then be twin turbocharged and intercooled... 650bhp and 9,000 RPMs sounds nice... Plus, since this is the motor from the entry level car, it would be easier to get more aftermarket, if not facotry, performance out of it. This would make the entry level car an even better bang for your buck/pound/euro/yen... Give it a lighter and more sporty interior than the V10 car... and make the exterior of the body a bit more aerodynamic so it's exclusivity and performance stands out more... oh and siccor doors like a Lambo... 3. A front/mid mounted (behind the front axle) V12 car... A 2+2 2 door and a 2 seater high performance model... The V12 should be about 6000cc or so... yet, it should still rev freely... a detuned Enzo unit sounds about right... maybe 585bhp... The hipo 2 seater version should be lighter... same brake horse power, but make the torque more accessible at lower RPMs... This would kill two birds with one stone... 550 Maranello and 456GT... Give the 2+2 a clutch less F1 system but with an improved automatic system... This particular car (well the 2+2 anyway...) would be a sequential auto... the 2 door GT would still have a clutch and come with a racer shift stick standard... you know... for driver involvment... and fun... paddles an option... 4. Big V12, non tubro super car... it should be lighter than the Enzo if they can do it... fixed roof coupe, 2 seater, 2 door... mid mounted motor... blah blah blah... 250 MPH... over 850bhp... active aerodynamics... give it a sequential 7 speed, either auto or manual, auto is clutch less, and manual, again, offers not only the paddle shifter but a stick that shifts like race cars... etc. etc. etc. Maserati? They should make luxury GT cars... and maybe keep a sporty model like the 4200 Coupe... | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 138 Registered: 8-2002 |
Ok, now we're on the same page (can that be considered a pun?) and yes, not having does breed desire (an intense desire) but you're right, that's not the only factor- it just seems like exclusivity rivals all other factors here... | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3089 Registered: 2-2001 |
I can see what you're saying now. It's is probably the largest factor to most people (no having something breeds desire), but is definitely not the only factor. A LOT of people buy them though because their neighbor doesn't have one. Less people buy them because they make great track cars, etc. I can use Deusenbergs as an example of what you're saying, limited production but I for one have 0 passion for them. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 136 Registered: 8-2002 |
Bret, i never said exclusivity doesn't lead to passion, i just don't understand why that seems to be the only case, here. It's becoming clearer and clearer that most here have an appreciation for their exotics partly/mostly because they are cars of an uncommon nature... In my neighborhood, BMWs are a dime a dozen, the 'vettes are even worse and Porsche isn't too far behind, but my head turns everytime i see a 3 or 5 Series or a Boxster or a 911 or a Carerra... My passion lies within the beauty of the car, not in it's rarity. Yes, i agree, exclusivity leads to passion in some cases, it just seems to be THE case, here. | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
New member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 34 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ferrari could easily build and market a very nice 45K car and still keep the brand image intact. How, you say? Let's see. 1. Small, high-grade steel back-bone chassis. Strong, relatively lightweight, and very tight in terms of handling and torque twist. 2. SLA suspension all around. Better than the Porsche Boxster OR 911 (MacPhereson Struts, baby), and not too expensive. 3. Good braking system....12 inch Brembos or something. 4. 6-Speed transmission. Tremec build a fine model. 5. 350hp V8. Could be as simple as a 4.0L 90deg aluminum block and heads, forged steel pistons and crank, and twin turbos. Use chains vs/ belts, and give it the reliability of an M5 V8, cutting down on maintenance costs. 6. Fiberglass, steel and carbon fiber body, designed by the masters at Pininfarina. 7. A nice dash, not raped from another model, and appointed in leather. Now, you've got a 350hp V8, backbone chassis with 4 wheel SLA suspension and 12 inch brembos, with a 6 speed tranny and speeds capable of 180mph. Looks nice, and costs around 45-55k. Build 5000 a year, and profit around 15K on each one. So what do we have? An nice, inexpensive Ferrari, costing a considerable amount less than a big poppa Ferrari in terms of maintenance, and a relitvely small production number allowing for CHEAP exclusivity and possibly the ability to flip with a little profit. What's wrong with this picture? Is it that maybe someone making less than $750,000/year would be able to drive a new Ferrari, killing off the "I make more, so only I should enjoy a new Ferrari" image? Hmmm...... | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3077 Registered: 2-2001 |
Well said Will. The bottom line is if Ferrari isn't being looked after by an automotive jugernaut like GM, they will not be able to run the company like they do now (read win races). BUT we said this like 20 posts ago, nice to see it finally coming back after all the ridiculousness about exclusivity. Ferrari can either be the child company in a relationship, or they can dilute their brand name and move into true mass production. If they had to do this, my suggestion was further dilution of Maserati because Ferrari is like the Golden Goose and you better not kill that cause you'll regret it. Saying exclusiveness doesn't lead to passion is one of the most ridiculous things every said here. What is coveted more, an F50 or a Lingenfelter Corvette? The Corvette will rape the F50, but it clearly is not nearly as desired in the auto industry as the F50 is. Exclusivity leads to a lot of things. You bring up women, why is it that Heidi Klum, Brooke Burke, etc are so desired....because there are so few women as beautiful as them. To start off with Ferrari will never be able to sell current cars in a number to not make them exclusive, as Paul brings up. BUT if I ever saw 15 Ferraris on my way to work, as many of them as BMWs, you better believe there'd be no chance in hell I'd buy a new Ferrari. I'd stick to the older ones when they were something special. Exclusivity accounts for a lot more than half of Ferraris sales, I'd put money on that. I see hundreds of owners working at a large service shop, most of them aint the type to drive a worked Supra even if it is faster. | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
Junior Member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 61 Registered: 11-2002 |
Now a gathering of the 250 GTO owners - that is an EXCLUSIVE get togther. As was the gathering of the Bugatti Royales at Pebble in '94 I think. Maybe exclusive in this sense means items that just get more and more valuable. Limited production? All cars are limited production! I think they limit F150 production to about a million a year. It amazes me people fall for that line. If all they sold were 448 550b's then that might be sort of limited. 48, then yeah, that is limited. Saleen - definitely limited - non-extant even. But 3000 cars annually and 100,000 total is a shipload and sure sounds like mass production to me. There are more 360's built each year than 911 turbos so does that mean that turbos are not mass production? Do you really think selling 3000 new cars a year at let's say an average price of $200,000 and 30% profit to Ferrari SpA is enough to run a 350 person F1 team? That equates to only $18M by the way. Now, what does Rubens and Michael and Jean and Ross and (ad nauseum) make and what is the overhead of a race shop? The sponsors finance the team fellas to get their logo on international TV for about 3000 hours a year. The romance of selling a few hand made street cars for the rich and famous like Enzo did sorrily doesn't work today. Don't kid yourself otherwise. I have my cars because I like owning and driving them and I can afford them. I like newer cars not older ones. As someone said, "I may be an old man, but I enjoy driving new cars." Not because other people can see me in them or it makes me a race driver or it makes me presumably rich or makes me exclusive. At the end of the day and the casket lid closes, who cares? Period. No matter who owns Ferrari or Lamborghini, the truly rich who make millions a year will continue to plop down whatever amount is being asked for to get the latest and greatest. Those of us to whom making a 200K decision for a new car is traumatic and causes lack of sleep probably don't even matter to Ferrari. Those who get the call to own new 40s, 50's, 550b's, Enzo's and so forth are Ferrari's bread and butter in my opinion and will likely own more than one at a time or even collect. Finally, do you really think that only Ferraris have mystique, magic, soul, etc? I'd argue that many, many cars have that in their own way. I enjoy driving a Corvette as well as a 930 as well as 360, etc. Just different. The mere transportation vehicles out there lack the above but quite a few others have it in their own way - even an inexpensive Miata has something that appeals. Will | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 393 Registered: 1-2002 |
Ken- Matts right. Lexus, Acura, Infiniti, et al. were all devised to highten the american consumers perception of japanese built cars as a whole, and then to erase the perception of econo-box only japanese models. Although w/ maserati it might be a tougher sale, b/c the brand is re-entering the market and has it's first car in the 90k range. The early acura's, lexus', etc. offered similar appointments at a lower cost, thats why the flourished. Again, this car that I'm going on about could be either Ferrari or maserati, but the ferrari name holds an invaluable amount of recognition (read: easier to market). Lastly, I honestly don't think that if you went for a sunday drive and saw 12 ferrari's v. 2 you'd really get down, even if you saw 20. I think it would heighten the sense of camramederie amongst owners. I mean, as it is, if you go to the right corss streets in the right towns, you're likely to see a handful of 360's go by, does that make you want one any less? | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 938 Registered: 8-2002 |
Ken, Lexus, Infinity, and Acura were created for America. Imports were know for their low cost. Not for upscale models. It was all smoke and mirrors. | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Junior Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 99 Registered: 10-2002 |
Can the $45K entry-level model be done through Maserati? Look at the reverse strategy. When Toyota wanted to go into the luxury car market many years ago, they started a new name called "LEXUS". | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 479 Registered: 5-2002 |
Dave Jones, I have located a horse drawn Amish carriage that has a salvage title. It was a theft recovery with mild damage. I think that it might be a rebody, but won't know its history until I check the chassis numbers. Do you think it will hold future value if I anty up the money for a full restoration? Or should I just part it out on E-bay for big bucks? I have always wanted a prancing horse, but this is not quite what I anticipated locating. Money is no object on a resto, but I don't want to get in a hurry. No need to put the cart before the horse. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 391 Registered: 1-2002 |
>>In short. Raise production, kill the brand.<< I think my initial comments have been misconstured. What I'm advocating is not an increase in production, but a diversification of the brand and model line. Also to those that find the quality of $45k Ferrari laughable, you should reconsider. If FIAT/Ferrari went ahead, I would argue, that the quality would go UP not down, as they could employee more automation, use tried and true parts/components as this line would not neccessitate cutting edge tech., etc. Also, manufacturing could be refined as more units would be built and more of the teething problems that many of us cite during ownership small and large may well be minimized; do something enough time you're bound to make it right. Further, did porsche build quality suffer as a result of the boxster? No. Is the boxster build quality abismal? No, albeit a bit bland on appointments, but fit and finish is as good as the rest of the product line. Do the boxster's not sound like the 911's? Don't they handle and brake as well? There was no dillution of porsches virtues, the boxster was a pragmatic, modern day, collorary, and it worked. Would we all have rather see porsches dissapear than to 'accept' the boxster, which would we choose? Lastly, on the topic of soul/passion/exclusivity, I think, in the end, those elements are important, however, the speculative rush of the '80's, I think, did more harm than good because it overemphasized the material nature or quality of owning a Ferrari. That to me would make the car/marque devoid of passion as it came close to being a mantel piece commodity. Its abougt driving and enjoying these cars, not worrying about your neighbor having one, or if you've seen 2 all month or 2 in the last hour. Ferrari's, no matter how many go driving by, will always be beautiful and charming; and any car of such stature should be, viscreally, entertaining and fullfilling to the owner while driving, not standing around looking at it, or stroking their ego b/c they 'own' car x, y, or z. Its about getting up in the morning, going to the garage, cleaning the car up, and driving. | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Junior Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 97 Registered: 10-2002 |
Des, if it is only my car that I see 10 times everyday, I would still love the car. But if one day the streets should ever be flooded with Ferrari cars all over the place, then I suppose I might be starting to sing : "baby, you've lost that lovely feeling ..."! | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 132 Registered: 8-2002 |
Ok, Ken, i see what you're saying... let me put it this way: If i drove to work everyday and saw nothing but 360s in all different colors (some spiders, some coupes), i don't believe i'd ever get tired of them- driving to work would be a slice of heaven. The passion that YOU have, for the car of YOUR dreams- if you saw that car 10 times over, all day, everyday, would your passion for that car dissipate...? | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Junior Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 94 Registered: 10-2002 |
Not quite as simple as that, Des. For me, the passion for a Ferrari comes from a combination of many elements. Rarity is certainly one of them. But of course, the car has to be worth the veneration in the first place. There are rarer cars around, but they do not raise the same passion as a Ferrari. Regards | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 130 Registered: 8-2002 |
At the risk of being flogged or stoned, is it safe to say that you're not so much Ferrari enthusiasts, then, rather you're 'rarity' enthusiasts and the "vehicle" (pardon the pun) you choose to display your enthusiasm with happens to be Ferraris or cars of an exotic nature...? | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Junior Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 91 Registered: 10-2002 |
Forgive me for joining in late. I am on the other side of the globe. If I have to take side, I would agree that "rarity" is part and parcel of the Ferrari mystique. Once a particular style, no matter how beautiful, gets generalised, and you see it everyday and all the time, the sense of occasion is no longer there. Fancy having Miss World cloned a thousand times? | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 340 Registered: 4-2002 |
David, people would look, but not with awe, but with morbid curiosity. ;) I agree, and that was my point. If I saw 6 Ferraris on my way to work, there is NO WAY you can avoid getting numb to them. Especially if anyone could afford to get one. *imagine the quality of a 45k Ferrari.. LMOL!* In short. Raise production, kill the brand. | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 480 Registered: 4-2001 |
It's all about the ego,ego,ego, my eye... Having what others can't... Do I detect a bit of jealousy? If it was all about this "exclusive club" type thing as you put it, then I would be driving a horse drawn Amish carriage, nobody in my area has one, and everybody would be looking as I passed to see me pimping in style. Get real! | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 815 Registered: 12-2001 |
I guess to a certian extent, people want what they cant have. There are people that want a ferrari because of what they feel it symbolizes, not bacause of the passion they have for one. as far as buying one for the quality goes, LOL, I dont see quality anywhere except the powertrain and even then, talk about maintainance. Im refering to older models because I dont know enough about late model ferraris to form an opinion. When it comes to hypothetical arguements, as long as they make sense fine but what you were suggesting cant happen on this planet. I still believe that limited production is part of the passion for me and it would fade if I saw a half a dozen ferraris on my way to work. | ||
| Joseph (Mojo)
Junior Member Username: Mojo Post Number: 165 Registered: 9-2002 |
I understand they are beautyful and some buy them for that, but I think the rare think could involve some ego, You are right about bodybuilding, but some use money instead. | ||
| Omar (O. H. B.) (Auraraptor)
Junior Member Username: Auraraptor Post Number: 56 Registered: 9-2002 |
Slick, "Your point with regards to Corvettes and BMWs is valid, however, there is no Corvette or BMW in existence whose design can compare to that of a Ferrari- there's just no question ("IMHO"). " I don't know about you, but some of us love ///M1s for there design and rarity..I would love to have one of those | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
Junior Member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 60 Registered: 11-2002 |
More money in selling used Ferraris than new Maseratis plus the demand for used Ferraris is obviously much higher. With 355's in the same price range at FNA dealers...which would you rather buy and which will likely hold more value long term? Not much question in my mind as only one has Ferrari on it and in it. No one waiting "on a list" for a Maserati is there? Finally, Ferraris ARE mass production cars with the exception of the early ones or the anniversary cars - over 10,000 TRs out there alone. They are not McLaren F1s, Bugattis, GTOs, etc. How exclusive is that? In the stronger economic areas they are a dime a dozen. If you are using Buffalo, Wyoming as your data point then I guess they are very exclusive. If you use Greenwich, CT or Bel Air, CA as your data point then they are like VW Bugs. Owning a Ferrari is about you and your car, not what others think about you because your ass is in one and thus, you must be rich, rich, rich, or how many other Ferraris you see a day. I could care less how many there are as long as I enjoy what I have. Will | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 129 Registered: 8-2002 |
Mitch, i'll never tire of seeing a Ferrari... i go to Bentley of L.I. several times a week and ogle at the Ferraris in there lot (and the 360 that USED to be in the window), my passion lies not with the cars' rarity but their look, their design, their allure, the power i know is within, the soul i long to connect with... My passion never fades, never passes, never subsides or deteriorates for my friend, whom i see on a daily basis... Again, my passion lies not within the rarity which i might see her, rather her beauty and personality... i can't take my eyes off of her, no matter how much time we spend together... Your point with regards to Corvettes and BMWs is valid, however, there is no Corvette or BMW in existence whose design can compare to that of a Ferrari- there's just no question ("IMHO"). Paul, true there would be alot of unsold cars, however, my point was one of a hypothetical nature, intended to draw out the loosely-used term "passion" that was being bounced back and forth; merely indicating that a level of passion should not be directly related to the availability of that which the passion is for. | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 336 Registered: 4-2002 |
Joseph, I disagree. It's about rarity, combined with quality. If you want a Ego boost, take up body building. | ||
| Joseph (Mojo)
Junior Member Username: Mojo Post Number: 163 Registered: 9-2002 |
It's all about the ego. Having what others can't. Or not many others, like an exclusive club, EGO, we all have it to some degree, some more than others. EGO, EGO. | ||
| David Jones (Dave)
Member Username: Dave Post Number: 478 Registered: 4-2001 |
Not that it matters, because I don't buy new cars... but business is business. Do what it takes to survive in this ever changing market. Porsche just about went under if it wasn't for the Boxster saving their skin... A low end car, compared to their other models. Even my lowly Ferrari, a 77 308gtb was the low end Ferrari when it was produced... When Enzo was still alive, Ferrari sold street cars to pay for it's racing efforts.... Now Ferrari races as a selling tool for it's street cars... I guess the times they are a changing. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 814 Registered: 12-2001 |
If ferrari mass produced cars and made them the way they are today, you would have alot of unsold cars sitting in factory pounds because there arent enough buyers for a car that expensive. If the car is to be mass produced and sold, something would be lost to make it affordable. You cant mass produce what they make now because it doesnt make financial sense. There is something to be said about owning a ferrari, how they are built, how they sound and the reputation they have. Mass produced cars dont have personality if you will. Why are you here on a ferrari site if you dont have a desire or an attraction towards them, there must be something special about them? | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 333 Registered: 4-2002 |
Come on now, you both know that is an overstatement. Think of it this way. When you see a Ferrari on the street right now you become excited. You point it out and say "Look, a 348! Look a 550 etc.." What if you saw three of them a DAY? Would you still go, Look! A ___!" I bet you wouldn't. It would become another car. A very NICE car, one that you would want to own, one that performs well, however it would not be that rare gem. Many things are very nice, but not exclusive or rare. Corvettes for example perform extremely well, even when compared to the best of Ferrari. Who don't we all own one? Passion, soul they say. Of course. We see five - ten corvettes a day. They are "just a car" however nice it may be. A BMW M5 is more expensive than a used TR, however park both on the street and see which one invokes the passion of passers by. However if those same people had one in their garage, and saw three TR's a day, but never really see very many M5's. Guess with one people will be drooling over? There is no wonder that people like that which is rare. Are you excited to see a new Porsche on the street? Can you remember when you where? I bet back when you might see one a week at most. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 128 Registered: 8-2002 |
This is the part where my eyes get really wide and my jaw drops 'cause it seems as though Arlie and i actually agree on something... | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 474 Registered: 5-2002 |
I ate dinner yesterday and the day before, so I guess food has lost its passion for me and I won't be eating dinner anymore. Food is no longer "exclusive". It has no value to me. Steak dinners are meaningless because everybody else can buy one also. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 126 Registered: 8-2002 |
One man's trash is another man's treasure... i have an intense passion for a young lady with whom i've been close friends... her other friends don't share this same passion (quite frankly, neither does her boyfriend), however, it's all a matter of what your passion derives from. The impression your giving me is that your passion for Ferrari derives from it's exclusivity; that if Ferrari suddenly mass-produced its cars- even with the same everything that they're made with now, that you'd lose interest, you'd no longer be an enthusiast. My passion for a Hershey bar has never been phased, no matter how many are on the shelf... i'm just not sure i understand how one's passion can be based on availability or exclusivity; to me, that's not passion, that's the desire to be considered elite, which leads to the question Magoo raised in his thread, Food For Thought. | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 330 Registered: 4-2002 |
Simple, because people devalue that which is obtainable and common. As of such, they would not treat a Ferrari as special. If something is not special, how can you have passion for it? Etc... | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 125 Registered: 8-2002 |
Why is that, Dave...? Since when did exclusivity constitute passion and soul...? So you're saying just because there is an abundance of something, it cannot have passion or soul...? There is an abundance of women in this world and i find that they all have passion and soul in their own right. Does an abundance of R&B singers discredit the passion and soul in their songs...? | ||
| David J. Smith (Darkhorse512)
Junior Member Username: Darkhorse512 Post Number: 78 Registered: 10-2002 |
Or does sacrificing exclusivity constitute sacrificing the passion and soul...? ...bingo | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 124 Registered: 8-2002 |
But Mitch, as long as it still has that same Ferrari soul, it wouldn't matter, right...? i mean, i'm not an owner, so i'm not privy to that real, true Ferrari experience, but if there was a 30k-45k Ferrari put out and people were buying them like crazy, it would be okay if it still had that same Ferrari passion in it, right...? Or does sacrificing exclusivity constitute sacrificing the passion and soul...? | ||
| Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member Username: Jussumfastgi Post Number: 329 Registered: 4-2002 |
" Personally I think Ferrari should have not bothered with Maserati - that alone is Ferrari brand dilution. A used non-12 cylinder Ferrari should be entry level into the "exotic" Italian sportscar market, not a new Maserati. " But where is Ferrari's proffit in that? Look, I think we can (mostly) all agree that the fastest way to kill Ferrari is for them to come out with a 30k+ a year production 45k car. Ferrari would become "just another nice car" like BMW, MB, Corvette, etc... Porsche is already almost there. Even if you had a new 360 spider, in the publics mind their brother just bought a new "ferrari" 234GTB and there are four in the parking lot at starbucks. The exclusivity would be dead. | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
Junior Member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 59 Registered: 11-2002 |
Porsche had to do something to exist - their sales in their major market - here - dropped 75% - from 20,000 units to 5,000 in about two years. They survived by the Boxster as entry level instead of a used 911 (I preferred the used 911 strategy) and be redesigning the 993 to be manufacture friendly and hence, less costly to produce and passing it on the the consumer. The guys stuck with one year old 964's that were 100k saw them plummet in value when a 95 993 could be had for 55K. Actually the Boxster was an attempt to bring back the soul of the small bore Porsches ala James Dean. Personally I think Ferrari should have not bothered with Maserati - that alone is Ferrari brand dilution. A used non-12 cylinder Ferrari should be entry level into the "exotic" Italian sportscar market, not a new Maserati. Ferrari already has a down market new car - the 8 cylinder 3 series. It would have been good to see Maserati as a competitor to Ferrari in someone else's hands. But then again, I can be arrogant at times. Sometimes in business you sleep with the devil though. Maybe you don't have sex with him/her but you share the bed. Will | ||
| Howie/ExoticAutoBrokers.com (Brokerofexotics)
Member Username: Brokerofexotics Post Number: 297 Registered: 11-2001 |
Joseph, Corrari entered my mind too, was just too embarassed to post it. | ||
| Joseph (Mojo)
Junior Member Username: Mojo Post Number: 162 Registered: 9-2002 |
Might buy a corrari | ||
| David J. Smith (Darkhorse512)
Junior Member Username: Darkhorse512 Post Number: 77 Registered: 10-2002 |
Infer what you will but there may be a big difference between a technical relationship and financial backing. http://quicktake.morningstar.com/Stock/financials.asp?Country=USA&Symbol=FIA | ||
| David J. Smith (Darkhorse512)
Junior Member Username: Darkhorse512 Post Number: 76 Registered: 10-2002 |
All this history about who did what is nice but...Does anybody have the bottom line in real numbers as to what the specific need for American intervention of Fiat is? Mystique has and will continue to keep Ferrari in a league of it's own. Dumbing down the name with a Z4/Boxster type car will spell the end of a perpetual icon. Not everyone can afford a new one and pricing them out of reach of the masses is part of what makes them special. I can't imagine that Ferrari profit margins are contributing to Fiat's financial woes. Excuse me while I search for a Fiat balance sheet. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 390 Registered: 1-2002 |
Bret- Either way, albeit, the Ferrari entry car would 1. be percieved as more exclusive hence an easier sell, and 2. be easier to market (for the previous reason); not everyone's in the know on maserati, but none the less, be it maserati badged or ferrari badged the parts are there. The car could be easy to 'put together'. Regarding, porsche's soul, the boxster was a neccessary 'evil'. The cayanne, well, I can resepct the idea b/c they are trying to keep the company independant, and be able to maintain the companies autonomy in an enviroment that would just see them bought out and amalgamated. Porsches alleged/rumored return to F1 started w/ the carrera GT's powerplant being a V10; wrap the F1 development costs into a road going production test mule. If it goes, that would probably be the most reliable F1 engine to date. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 122 Registered: 8-2002 |
Surfing around, i found this article: does it, maybe, have anything to do with what Kevin said, with regards to GM buying 80% of FIAT...? (EDIT: Oops! Forgot to include the article!) "Automotive News Europe published this article on 15 Nov, 2002, written by Luca Ciferri: Ferrari boss Luca di Montezemolo is expected to replace Paolo Fresco as chairman of Fiat Group as early as next month. Montezemolo is currently in discussions with members of the Fiat�s controlling Agnelli family about the job, according to several sources familiar with the situation. Fiat and Ferrari spokesmen refused to comment. The only obstacle still to be cleared is how Montezemolo would share power with Gabriele Galateri di Genola, who replaced Paolo Cantarella in June as Group CEO. Montezemolo, 54, has lead Ferrari since 1991 and has been successful both in the sports car business and in Formula One racing. Montezemolo, a graduate in law from the University of Rome, has spent most of his career with the Fiat Group. He started at Ferrari in 1973 as an assistant to Enzo Ferrari and team manager of the F1 racing team. He later headed public affairs for the Fiat Group and then ran Fiat�s publishing arm, ITEDI. He returned to Ferrari as CEO in 1991 after organizing Italy�s first America�s Cup challenge and the 1990 World Cup. A long time protege of Fiat honorary chairman Gianni Agnelli, Montezemolo is well acquainted with the group structure and people. He is also highly regarded by Italy�s Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, who offered him the post of foreign minister in May 2001. The removal of Fresco, the former General Electric vice-chairman who replaced Cesare Romiti in June 1998, would complete an overhaul of Fiat Group top management within the past year. The changes started with the December 2001 ousting of Fiat Auto Managing Director Roberto Testore. Group CEO Paolo Cantarella left in June and CFO Daniel Clermont was removed from his job in October." | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 121 Registered: 8-2002 |
What everyone has said makes sense, especially you, Bret, but what i don't understand is this: Why haven't THEY thought of what all of you are saying...? Was their financial mistake merely the cause of a bad marketing projection...? Not that all of you aren't bright people, you are, but if you see what seems logical, how come they didn't...? Anyone have any insight...? | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3067 Registered: 2-2001 |
Hubert I agree with what you're saying, but I would do it with Maserati and leave Ferrari on its high horse (ah, how do I love puns). They started Maserati with the intention of making it their entry level car with a goal of 10k produced a year. A $75M engine factory (for both F and M cars) and many millions more for the rest of the car, and like you said, Maserati hasn't exactly taken off. The new car is amazing, a couple of the guys here have it and I would absolutely join them if I could afford one. BUT, that car should be the high end Maserati and there should have been one like you said, around $55k, introduced first. Introduce a $55k Maserati, build a name for yourself again, then two or three years later introduce the car they have now. That to me would have been an infinitely more profitable plan in both the short and long run. I would hands down get a Maserati over a BMW M3, it's a no brainer IMO. BUT there is no chance in hell I would get anything Maserati offers over a 355. Currently they are in the same price range, this is a no brainer again, just the Maserati loses this time. I know it's more complex, one is new the other used, one is more luxury, etc. but neither is your grocery getter to be honest. They're too close in uses for it, performance, and price. Just my $.02. It seems the only people that buy the Maseratis are hardcore Ferrari guys, and park it next to their Ferrari ______ (fill in the blank) in the garage. God help us if Ferrari ever sells its soul like Porsche. As much as I hate Porsche, it's an icon and I respect it for that. The Boxster was alright, but the Cayenne is going way over the line. The worst part is they'll probably make it work and then be all proud when they're done. The only excuse for making the Cayenne would be funding for a return into F1 or to bring back LeMans to them, which we know is not the case. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3735 Registered: 2-2001 |
Not so you could notice it Matt. Regards | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 388 Registered: 1-2002 |
I've said this before, but I think Ferrari/FIAT should consider a compact/entry-level car that would open them up to the market share currently held by the porsche boxster, z4, TT, etc. Porsche, in the early '90's, was in the same position; that is, on the verge of extinction. How they revitalized the company was via the boxster, and now to spur that momentum further, they are releaseing the cayanne. Now, I know that porsche cars are not 'exotics' per se, in the sense of production numbers, however they do realize the utility of broadening their customer demographic. FIAT is hoping that the maserati division will show ample return and a new influx of funds, but it wont, sadly. The cars are 80k, and already, flipped examples w/ delivery miles are selling BELOW msrp, by a decent margin. What would work is a car in the 45-55k range, something open to compete w/ the M3/boxster S/TT/ et. al. Lets just daydream for a moment. Ferrari is already poised to release the 360 replacement, now assuming that they've recouped the development costs of the chassis/motor/platform, why not use the 360 drivetrain (detuned for better gas milage, retooled for longer service intervals, etc.) and build upon the 360 platform; now, you dont need to outfit the cars w/ as high a grade of goods as the 360/420/550/456 et al., but just assemble the car from already developed and paid for technologies and components. If I was at the helm, that would be my plan. Call me a dissenter, but thats my 2 cents. | ||
| Omar (O. H. B.) (Auraraptor)
Junior Member Username: Auraraptor Post Number: 53 Registered: 9-2002 |
My dream is that BMW buys Ferrari, its not like the 2 company's cars compete at this point..they are 2 completely different price ranges, so Ferrari could be the "super highline" with Rolls that bmw owns...it would make F1 a complete domination with BMW and Ferrari as one :p Can you tell bmw is my second favorite company? (after Ferrari of course ) | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 421 Registered: 3-2002 |
I'm glad too see some open minded people about this... GM isn't the devil... it will most likely benift Ferrari... plus, the new C6 Corvette will have some pretty nice new technologies that could benift an Fcar... and I for one would like too see a Corvette with an F1 shifter option and Brembo brakes... | ||
| David J. Smith (Darkhorse512)
Junior Member Username: Darkhorse512 Post Number: 75 Registered: 10-2002 |
Aww man... ...I can already see a Maserati SUV/SUT with a F1 transmissoin, Blazer steering wheel, Cavalier window swtiches and fine Italian "pleather seating surfaces". Don't forget the hokey pseudo wine country ad campaign touting years of race inspired European engineering. :-( Matt on this possibility, I'm ready for 2 drinks. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 919 Registered: 8-2002 |
Magoo, you drinking again? Is Hans with you? | ||
| Joseph (Mojo)
Junior Member Username: Mojo Post Number: 159 Registered: 9-2002 |
YES | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3733 Registered: 2-2001 |
How about a name like Ferrariette. Sounds kinda whimpish doesn't it. | ||
| magoo (Magoo)
Advanced Member Username: Magoo Post Number: 3731 Registered: 2-2001 |
Get ready guys your old Ferraris may become valuable. The last of a dying breed. | ||
| WMontgomery (Fiorano1999)
Junior Member Username: Fiorano1999 Post Number: 57 Registered: 11-2002 |
Bottom line is if GM or Ford or whomever with enough cash/stock/etc. wants it all they will somehow manage to get it. I would put no stock into what the head of FIAT says these days - I'm sure his bankers aren't. Might as well ask Ken Lay what his thoughts on Enron are! As far as the Italian government goes they'd rather have a major going concern that is foreign owned in their economy than a dead nationalist giant and a near dead Italian icon in Ferrari as well. If Rolls and Bentley can be German then Ferrari can sure as hell be American, Japanese, French or Korean. This is a global economy - BMWs and Mercedes coming out of the deep south - Hondas and Subarus in Ohio - what's the big deal? FIAT is the one in trouble, not the others, so what is so magic about FIAT's business model that doesn't need changed? Will | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Junior Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 87 Registered: 9-2002 |
I don't disagree with all of you comments but I do have to say that when Chrysler took over Lambo It allowed Lambo to make the Diablo. The Diablo was a direct relsult of Chrysler injecting money and production information to Lambo. Most everybody on this board likes the Diablo. If Chrysler had not come along when it did we would not have any Lambo's to buy at all. Audi's infulance on Lambo now can only lead to good things,just look at the Muchielago what a beauitful car!! I think if G.M. only provides finacial backing then all should be well. | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 418 Registered: 3-2002 |
LOL @ BretM's comment... tis true... a V12 GT Ferrari should be faster than most cars.. not hang with them... it should be FASTER... | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1054 Registered: 8-2001 |
There's talk of a Maserati SUV. I think Ferrari's plan is to let Maserati carry the more mass-produced models. There's the new Quattroporte coming out next year then probably the SUV. | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 417 Registered: 3-2002 |
Right. I'd take an Audi RS6 Avant wagon before an SUV... so a Ferrari wagon would be nice... | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 112 Registered: 8-2002 |
True, Racer, a Ferrari SUV might not have that signature soul that Ferrari has, however, have you ever seen Ferrari's station wagon...? When i saw it, it was the first time i ever wanted a station wagon...! | ||
| Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member Username: Mr_0011 Post Number: 416 Registered: 3-2002 |
I don't think it could hurt... IMHO, new Jags are better than ever, so are Astons... What I AM afraid of is a Ferrari truck... the Porsche Cayenne is a nice SUV... I really like it, I admit it... but a SUV/MPV/truck etc.. is NOT Ferrari... I'd rather see a four door sports car to take on an M5 before I see a lifted SUV Ferrari... | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 469 Registered: 5-2002 |
I didn't know that you could haul 1000 pounds of materials in the back of your Nissan? (I drive a '95 GMC truck!) My Corvettes are long term resto projects. But I will jump on a hand grenade and admit that a guy named Larry Shinoda designed the 1963 Corvette. Maybe Ferrari and others got their cue from Shinoda, a Japanese American. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 109 Registered: 8-2002 |
Not that this is a pissing contest, Arlie, but i'm confident my Nissan putt-putt would eat your Chevy putt-putt for breakfast... (unless, of course, you're driving a 'Vette...!) | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3064 Registered: 2-2001 |
Kevin hit a point I laugh about sometimes. If you look at the early Vettes it would be hard to say they didn't take at least some subtle styling cues from mostly Ferrari and maybe a couple other sports car racers of the time. The Corvette and the Ferrari still have the closest looking tail light assemblies as. If GM owns Ferrari maybe their cars will stop losing to Porsches, Lamborghinis, etc. in a straight line. Oh wait, I forgot, by the law of Enzo you can't have a car be fast in both a straight line and around a corner for less than $675,000. | ||
| Kevin Butler (Challenge)
New member Username: Challenge Post Number: 33 Registered: 9-2002 |
Hey, at least there won't be a lot of boardroom bickering about taillight configurations, right? | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 468 Registered: 5-2002 |
Your absolutely correct DES. I crawled underneath and took a close look. Nothing is made out of metal at all. Only plastic. It's a Nissan!!! | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 104 Registered: 8-2002 |
Horsefly, If you have a chevy that never needed work until it reached 150,000 miles, then it isn't a chevy- someone gave you a nissan with chevy decals...! | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 467 Registered: 5-2002 |
Yes Matt, I will still do my best to save any Fervette. Of course it won't be necessary to part out anything except badly wrecked Fervettes. Once GM takes over, they will go 150,000 miles without any service, instead of removing the engine for major overhauls every 30,000 miles. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 907 Registered: 8-2002 |
Horsefly, Will you still wave your "don't part out a Ferrari" flag on a Chevy 360? | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 466 Registered: 5-2002 |
Prime Minister Chamberlein came back from a meeting with Adolph Hitler in 1938 and proudly waved a non-agression pact that Hitler had signed with him. Of course, it turned out to be meaningless scrap paper. Any agreement to leave Ferrari out of the Fiat deal could just as easily be modified to include it. If GM wants to buy something, with their kind of cash, anything, including Ferrari, is probably for sale. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 1990 Registered: 9-2001 |
as we discussed, the option does not cover Ferrari as it stands now | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Junior Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 102 Registered: 8-2002 |
Oh, no... please no... america, the corporate nazi will suck the life out of one of the few things that really moves me... is nothing sacred...? (how much is Micheloangelo's David...?) | ||
| VS (Vs1)
Junior Member Username: Vs1 Post Number: 60 Registered: 10-2002 |
Would I buy a FerVette? I have a Ferrari and 2 Corvettes right now - so there is your answer. BUT, from this report the 80% put option does not apply to Ferrari or Maserati. So it seems to be a non-issue anyway. "FIAT WILL �REMAIN ITALIAN� Fiat�s chief executive insists the company �is Italian and will remain Italian,� Reuters reports, despite losing money and facing a possible sale to General Motors. Fiat�s Gabriele Galateri admitted to the news service that the struggling auto division still might be sold by parent Fiat Group, but that the auto division was working diligently on a recovery plan. Fiat is in the midst of cutting more than 8000 jobs in a cost-cutting drive. The company has a �put� option to sell the remaining 80 percent of Fiat Auto to GM in 2004; GM now owns 20 percent of the carmaking group, which does not include Ferrari or Maserati." [from daily news yesterday on www.thecarconnection.com] | ||
| Andreas Forrer (Tifosi12)
Junior Member Username: Tifosi12 Post Number: 149 Registered: 10-2002 |
Don't need the cup holders, but wouldn't mind that HUD. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member Username: Bretm Post Number: 3060 Registered: 2-2001 |
For those that say Italy will not allow it, they wont like it, but they will certainly take a GM owned Ferrari over no Ferrari. If you read the financial articles surrounding the deals, Ferrari will simply not be able to function as they do now without a parent company standing over them. If they're forced to go on their own expect the Ferrari F1 teams of the 1980s and early 1990s to return, wont it be nice to see Ferrari finishing 9th and 10th each race, but we'll have saved them from the clutches of the Americans so it will be worth it... I personally like Ferrari being owned by Italian companies, but I would rather see them owned by an American company instead of a French, British, Japanese, etc. Besides which, Bob Lutz controls GM now, I would put money on it that he's twice the car enthusiast that anyone that posts here is. It's nice to pretend GM is still be running by a bunch of fools, who would hold Ferrari with no regard other than profit, but if you actually read about the companies being talked about this is clearly not the case. | ||
| Paul Newman (Newman)
Member Username: Newman Post Number: 801 Registered: 12-2001 |
Oh no, gm will come along and apply corvette technology to a ferrari and remove it's soul. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3439 Registered: 5-2001 |
Leasing out the coloseum: spells Ferrari Chat meeting 2006 to me! | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
New member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 28 Registered: 11-2002 |
"The Italian Government will not allow it" Wrong. Read this month's Economist. Italy is currently recieving values on most of the works of art held in Italian museums. Italy's government is forecasting bad financial times, and is considering selling Michealangelo's Daivd and leasing out the Colliseum. (No joke.) | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 464 Registered: 5-2002 |
"I doubt it will happen. Italy will not allow one of it's treasures to fall into American hands." The Titanic is unsinkable. The Soviet Union will never crumble. Enron is a sound company. United Airlines is in great shape. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 216 Registered: 10-2002 |
Once again Ferrari is not included. 34% of Ferrari has already been spun off to a bank and Leaman and the rest will be before the date of the Fiat Put to GM. In addition it's likely that GM will buy it's way out of the put as political/union considerations make it unlikely Fiat will be able to comply with the conditions that whould force GM to buy it. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 343 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>Would there ever be a Fervette, or a Maserati Impala?? [puke]<<< Ha Ha Ha Ha ....ROTFLMAO.... The deal is $$$$$$$$$....Profit...$$$$... Return on Investment....$$$$$$$....Chrysler choaked hard when they bought Lamborghini...to steal the technology and sell it mass production style at big profits...now Audi is choaking on the same Salami...although they have exported alot more of the technology back to Germany, than CHR did to America. So only time will tell how these new Follies will play out. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 899 Registered: 8-2002 |
Me too. There have been discussions about GM and Ferrari, Ford and Ferrari, and Porsche and Ferrari for many years. Everytime, the banks, or government step in. I do like the idea of a $70,000 308 though... | ||
| Howie/ExoticAutoBrokers.com (Brokerofexotics)
Member Username: Brokerofexotics Post Number: 290 Registered: 11-2001 |
Matt, Time will tell, but I hope you are correct. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 897 Registered: 8-2002 |
The Italian Government will not allow it. | ||
| Howie/ExoticAutoBrokers.com (Brokerofexotics)
Member Username: Brokerofexotics Post Number: 289 Registered: 11-2001 |
"I doubt it will happen. Italy will not allow one of it's treasures to fall into American hands." Treasure shmesures...business is about money, not sentimentality. Unfortunate, but the way it is... | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 895 Registered: 8-2002 |
Jim, What is said is the truck Porshe is coming out with in 2005. M | ||
| Jim Schad (Jim_schad)
Member Username: Jim_schad Post Number: 548 Registered: 7-2002 |
If they do get em they will ruin em. They won't be able to live with themselves only producing a limited # of ferraris each year so they will keep the runs short, but they will introduce 6 new models that are "affordable" to appeal to the general public. Look at porsche, lexus, jag, bmw, merc. They all are clamoring for more market share yet trying to maintain some sort of exclusivity. Your 308 Dinos will be worth double in 10 years. | ||
| Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member Username: Mlemus Post Number: 894 Registered: 8-2002 |
I doubt it will happen. Italy will not allow one of it's treasures to fall into American hands. There was a chrysler TC by Maserati though.....You never know. | ||
| Kevin Butler (Challenge)
New member Username: Challenge Post Number: 32 Registered: 9-2002 |
I heard on CNBC this morning that GM has entered into some sort of option agreement to buy something like 80% of FIAT next year? Is Ferrari going down the same path as Lamborghini, Jaguar, and Land Rover? Would Ferrari's business model change under American leadership? Would there ever be a Fervette, or a Maserati Impala?? [puke] |