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Ernesto (T88power)
Member
Username: T88power

Post Number: 944
Registered: 2-2001
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 10:14 pm:   

This is what he responded to an email i sent regarding the year of the car and whether it was a factory spyder:

Please go back and read all the copy...I clearly state the factory did not do the conversion...the car was a prototype coupe...given to Mezario...and he took it to Scagletti in 1970 who did the conversion...just like he did the 121 cars for the factory...title reads 1967

Dr. Marv Friedman
Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie

Post Number: 502
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 4:48 pm:   

This all brings to mind a question that I have wondered about. Exactly WHO is bidding on this car, and other Ferraris, on E-Bay? Was P.T. Barnum correct? Are those bids on that Daytona #11929 "real" bids? If so, are those bidders "real" Ferrari enthusiasts? If so, why aren't they on Ferrarichat and getting all this "scoop"? If they were, would they still be bidding on that car? Or are those "private" bids really legitimate? I've often wondered about E-Bay. How many of those bids are the same guy simply bidding on his own car from his office computer, his home computer, his buddy's computer, his grandma's computer, etc.?
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member
Username: Mlemus

Post Number: 971
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 4:40 pm:   

I ran the pic of the chassis number through the hopper and it cam out a little sharper then his
Mine
pic
His
wm hart (Whart)
Member
Username: Whart

Post Number: 642
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 4:39 pm:   

I'm not trying to justify the higher price for a "real" spyder, but am informed that alot of the conversions weren't so well done; that there were tricks to reinforcing the frame, using metal, rather than plastic inner fenders, that the side window glass is shaped differently, that the number of switches for ventilation/dome light are different on a "real" spyder, compared to a cut one. I am not dissing Sheehan or Straman, but i'm also informed that some of the early Straman ones were not quite as good as their later conversions. I'm also not sure that all the allegedly "scaglietti" cut cars were done by his people, or that they are the best ones, although i have been informed that some were done by his shop and are virtually indistiguishable from the real thing, compared to some other conversions.

I am not pretending false expertise here, because, as you know, i've been searching for one of these cars for myself and enjoy the education process of learning, so i really don't have an axe to grind on this one. As to factory documentation, i don't know that much actually came with the car: perhaps a window sticker; i would guess the plates say GTS, not GBT. I know there were controversies, and lists of serial #'s of the "authentic" cars published by different "experts", and that there were frauds, given the premium for "factory" spyders.
As to whether that difference is justified, in dollars, dunno about that answer for others. For me, somebody who drives 'em but also appreciates them, i have already chosen to seek out a cut car for many of the reasons people cite here.
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member
Username: Mlemus

Post Number: 970
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 4:30 pm:   

He also changed the listing

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1874633035
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member
Username: Mlemus

Post Number: 969
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 4:29 pm:   

this was the car he claimed was the GTO he sold

http://www.barchetta.cc/english/All.Ferraris/Detail/3677GT.250GT.SWB.California.Spyder.htm
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi

Post Number: 2048
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 4:19 pm:   

Marvelous - :-)
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member
Username: Lwausbrooks

Post Number: 566
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 4:09 pm:   

This just in (I will keep the source anonymous):

If "Dr." Marvin Friedman is the same person as Mr. Marvin
Friedman, one-time proprietor of the Hallandale, Florida dealership
Autoputer, then:

Marvin Friedman was charged with defrauding three banks of almost US$1.3
million. He was subsequentlly convicted and spent a number of years in
jail.

He is now out, and as of a year or two ago was in Pompano Beach, FL,
back in the car business,. At that time his e-mail address was
marvin@autosmartusa.com.


As for the car, here is what Gerald Roush has on file:

S/N 11929
365 GTB/4 Berlinetta 4th prototype / Spyder Conv.

European production 1968

Identified as 365 GTB/4. #4 Prototype. (H. Raab's FSN Part I, 2nd Ed.).

Original color bianco polo (white). Shown at the 1968 Turin Auto Show,
then sold to Ignazio Giunti.

Mar 1987 car being offered in Europe as ""Prototype Daytona Spyder"".
Subsequently received numerous inquiries. No one had documentation.
(Joe Lewis, New York, NY, Mar 1987)

1987 being offered as ex-Merzario, spyder version. Per telex from
Ferrari car was originally a berlinetta & was not ex-Merzario. (Tony
Adriaensens, Antwerp, Belgium, Cavallino No. 39, Jun/Jul 1987)

Factory telexes in file state ""the car serial number 11929 is an
original Daytona Coupe prototype."" and another states (my translation
from Italian) ""Daytona ch. no. 11929: Unfortunately no official
documents exist but it is our belief that this was a prototype which
Ferrari probably consigned to Giunti or to Merzario.""

SPYDER CONVERSION offered 1988 by Herve Gachon, Miami, FL & France. Red
with black leather. Borrani wire wheels. Low mileage, excellent
condition. A gift from Ferrari to an Italian race car driver. Car
located in Florida. Display ad only. (FML 1320)

SPYDER CONVERSION offered 1989 by Autoputer, Hallandale, FL. Red with
tan interior. One of four known factory-documented prototypes,
allegedly ex-Merzario, converted by Scaglietti in Italy . (FML 1406).
Black & tan interior. (FML 1420). Offered again 1990. (FML 1505).

SPYDER CONVERSION seen Jun 2002 in Fort Lauderdale, FL. Owner claims it
is a factory prototype given to former factory team driver.
-----------------------------------------------

Whether or not the car was here in SoCal in or around 1979 in coupe form, is unknown to Mr. Roush, as I stated before, however, that original source was very reliable. Anyway, no matter. I think the more interesting thing is Marvelous Marvin's claim to GTO ownership. As for credibility, I think his prior "record" speaks for itself.
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi

Post Number: 2047
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 3:40 pm:   

ken, the seller is not claiming it is a factory spyder - he claims it was a prototype coupe that someone (not the factory) had cut by scaglietti in 1970. The item is dispute is whether this car was cut in italy in 1970 or in the us after 1979. not that it will make much diff but the owner is asking for premium pricing.
Ken (Allyn)
Member
Username: Allyn

Post Number: 581
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 3:30 pm:   

Paul makes the distinction I was looking for. If Ferrari ordered the 'cut' then it's a 'factory' spyder; if someone independently had it done by the same people (Scaglietti) at the same time, it is not 'factory'. I disagree it should make a difference but appearently to 'collecters' it does. So, the question is: do 'factory' spyders have it written on the sticker it's a spyder? I suspect it does. Does the EBay car have a sticker? Or any Ferrari paperwork indicating the car was 'supposed' to be a spyder? Being a prototype, it probably had a lot of different parts at one time or another before leaving the factory. One can see we're getting in to the relm of angels dancing on pins. Bottom line is: a car is worth what someone will pay for it. If this car sells, then we'll know its value.
Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member
Username: Pcelenta

Post Number: 233
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 1:56 pm:   

Dr. Marvin is just a car "broker" with caviar dreams and what ever else Robin Leach used to say...he probably new the guy, who new the guy whose sister's friend's cousin bought the car for 14 mill...

thoughts on cut cars..If Ferrari didn't order it cut by Scag...then there is a difference...even if the same Gepetto guy did a "period cut"

Additionally, while it sounds all fancy,I don't think I would pay a premium for a conversion or even a restoration done in Italy...The Straman and Autokraft "cut" daytonas that I have seen were to much higher standards.
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member
Username: Lwausbrooks

Post Number: 564
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 1:45 pm:   

Guys, I'm pretty much done with this fruitcake. If any of you want, feel free to have a go at him:

LUVDG@aol.com
(800)930-3002
Pat Pasqualini (Enzo)
Junior Member
Username: Enzo

Post Number: 106
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 1:44 pm:   

Wayne When are you catching a plane down to FL?
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi

Post Number: 2042
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 1:29 pm:   

didn't you realize lifestyles is now the source for all your complete ferrari histories - interesting he did not offer any different evidence. To me people in this area should understand all the sceptism of athenicity and be more than happy to back up their claims, though I sure he was a little pissed of at your email - oh well
Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie

Post Number: 499
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 1:28 pm:   

Watch out LWayne, he's bluffing you. The "TAPE" is probably an old Betamax 1 format that won't play on anything these days.
James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member
Username: Napolis

Post Number: 233
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 1:25 pm:   

Wayne
And you thought I was OTT.:-)
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi

Post Number: 2041
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 1:24 pm:   

I am not expert but there were coupes and authorized spyders - cut by a third party and sold by Ferrari as spyders. Some coupes were later cut by third parties and some coupes were later cut by the same third party as handled the authorized cutting. I compare this to a US muscle car cut to look like a orginal convert - may look exactly like it but was not intended to come that way and should not command as much

just my uneducated view - the experts will jump in
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member
Username: Lwausbrooks

Post Number: 562
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 1:22 pm:   

Marvelous Marvin's response:

"Recreation for $14.25?...are you serious...I am at a point in my life where I don't bother to waste time with individuals like yourself...Come to Florida...I'll show you the tape from 1989(Lifestyles)....and if what I stated isn't factual...I'll pay you $100,000...if I am right...bring $10,000 with you...is that acceptable ....if you have it?

Good luck;

Dr. Friedman"
Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie

Post Number: 497
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 1:06 pm:   

Ken, glad that somebody besides me can't see much of a difference either. As I said in another post, it's seems sort of like saying a bottle of Coca Cola tastes different in a 5 star restaurant that it does out of a machine at the gas station.
Now when they lynch me because I can't see the difference, at least somebody else will be hanging beside me!
Ken (Allyn)
Member
Username: Allyn

Post Number: 578
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 12:28 pm:   

I'm a little confused by the issue of a 'cut' Daytona as opposed to a 'factory' spyder. If it's true that ALL Daytonas were coupes from the factory and Scaglietti then did the conversion, wouldn't a period conversion by Scaglietti be the same as a factory spyder? I don't see the difference.

As far as the date on the title, I agree that's not important. My '72 Europa TC is registered as a 73 and all 73's were a TCS. Nice deception there huh. But it was ALWAYS a '73 so it was not done with the intent to defraud. I expect a prototype could be dated any year prior to the production model.

That GTO story though...smells fishy so far. I hope that issue is further discussed!
Chris A. (Asianbond)
Junior Member
Username: Asianbond

Post Number: 112
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 10:05 am:   

Is it just me or does anyone else find the daytona spyders less appealing after the Miami Vice era, for some reason everytime I see one I immediately associate with a kit car. I think in this case the heighten publicity has done more harm than good for the car. I swear, if it wasn't for that series i would find the daytona spyder incredibly appealing.
Bryan Phillips (Bryanp)
New member
Username: Bryanp

Post Number: 23
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 9:01 am:   

My .02 on the alleged build date; my car, 11199, was made in early 1968. I don't see how 11929 could be built in 1967. I understand there were some irregularities in build dates at the end/beginning of each year when completed chassis would go to Pininfarina in bunches and PF would complete the cars sometimes in a different order in which they were received from Ferrari, but these are minor variations (this is an explanation I've heard bounced around - have you heard this before, Wayne?).

A common trick by crafty importers was(is?)to title a 68-69 car as a 67 to avoid certain Fed regulations re: safety/emissions. The DMV folks generally don't know what to do with an old Ferrari serial number when they see one and don't have the knowledge to question the year. My serial came up as a stolen trailer when I tried to register in Virginia! An interesting moment as I'm trying to explain that my car is not even a trailer queen much less a stolen trailer.
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member
Username: Mlemus

Post Number: 965
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 8:35 am:   

I doubt the guy will move on his position. He is convinced about the history of the car.
James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Junior Member
Username: Napolis

Post Number: 232
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 8:27 am:   

The quality of the originals was some times a bit ruff as well. Coco Chinetti once told me about the first 275GTB NART Spyder being cut with a hacksaw and tin snips in a parking lot behind Scaglietti's as it was too dark inside to show the line he wanted to achieve.
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi

Post Number: 2018
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 7:11 am:   

wayne - lots of great info. how much do these coupe prototypes (uncut) command over normal coupes if anything. hopefully this guy comes on the chat
Francisco J. Quinones (Frankie)
Junior Member
Username: Frankie

Post Number: 101
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 3:21 am:   

I like that Wayne,anyone taking bets on a possible response from Dr.Friedman?:-)
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member
Username: Lwausbrooks

Post Number: 561
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 11:07 pm:   

By the way, I just sent the following message to our Dr. Friedman:

Dr. Friedman:

As you know through your correspondence with Chris Parr, I have been told that there were discrepancies in your description of this car's history. You're sticking to your guns on the issue of where the conversion took place and the issue regarding the s/n of the last Daytona produced (it really was 17615, not 17087) is really not relevant to the car you're selling and of little importance to you and I right now.

What really gets my goat, however, is the preposterous story you are telling regarding your prior ownership and subsequent sale of a 250 GTO! Smoked a little too much of the funny stuff back in the 60's, did we? Which GTO, exactly, do you purport to have owned? I would assume that you were referring to a "GTO recreation" or other such animal if it weren't for the astonishing sale price you stated. Sold it to Yoshiho Matsushida in 1989, you say? I'm sorry, I don't watch "Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" but, being "known throughout the world as an expert on Ferraris (vintage)," I'm sure you can enlighten me a little. Please do.

Sincerely,
L. Wayne Ausbrooks
wm hart (Whart)
Member
Username: Whart

Post Number: 641
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 10:10 pm:   

Horsefly, i think you missed bill sawyer's point; that "real" factory spyders command a premium for reasons apart from who cut the car, even though the ones allegedly cut by Scaglietti (or more accurately, the people who worked for him)after the fact should be approximately the same as the real ones. The fact is, there are a number of quite poor conversions out there, making a "real" spyder worth appreciably more, and as far as i know, there isn't a considerable amount of documentation, even with the "scaglietti" conversions, to establish that his company in fact did the cut. I am only taking issue here because, as i have said, i have been somewhat immersed in this process with respect to finding a cut daytona, and, at least from my perspective, took Mr. Sawyer's comments in a slightly different vein.regards
Terry Springer (Tspringer)
Member
Username: Tspringer

Post Number: 349
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 9:43 pm:   

I tend to agree with Bill, this car would be worth more if it was still a coupe. As it is its a gorgeous car and should be worth the top end of the range for a cut car, say maybe $135K - $145K. It sure would surprise me if it was valued by the market at anything near a factory authorized spyder.
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member
Username: Lwausbrooks

Post Number: 559
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 9:39 pm:   

Regarding Dr. Friedman's 250 GTO and stated financial transaction involving such: Absolute bullshit. So much for the credibility issue.

Somebody PLEASE invite this guy on to F-Chat. It'll be SO much fun!
Horsefly (Arlie)
Member
Username: Arlie

Post Number: 492
Registered: 5-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 6:04 pm:   

"but the real value in a 'factory' conversion is in its serial number and rarity, not in Scaglietti's handiwork."

Isn't it really a shame that in the collector car world, people think more highly of a piece of paper documentation that they do of the car itself. The beautiful form and mechanical functionality of a fine piece of automotive history matters less than a stack of paperwork.
Kind of like saying, "Who cares about the Mona Lisa as artwork. Look at that framework!"


Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member
Username: Wsawyer

Post Number: 580
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 4:25 pm:   

I would think that a collector would want to return this vehicle to its original coupe form. It has less value, IMO, since it was modified. Its kind of like buying the Mona Lisa and changing her hair color.

I also can't see any cut Daytona commanding 'real' Spyder $$$, even if it was done by Scaglietti. His conversions may command a bit of a premium because he did the factory Spyders, but the real value in a 'factory' conversion is in its serial number and rarity, not in Scaglietti's handiwork.
wm hart (Whart)
Member
Username: Whart

Post Number: 639
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 3:39 pm:   

I would suspect that the prototype thing is important to collectors but wouldn't make a hell of alot of difference to somebody like me, who wants to buy one to drive it. The difference in who cut the car could be important, though, in terms of its saleability, and perhaps its value. One of the guys at WWoC remembers a customer who took delivery of a daytona coupe in its era, and decided to have it sent back to the factory for conversion into a spyder. I would assume that such a car could command a higher price than other "cut" cars, but still less than a "factory" spyder.(I appreciate that it was arguably Scaglietti, not ferrari, who did the fabrication and cutting, but when did ferrari take that company in-house?)
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi

Post Number: 2014
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 2:45 pm:   

wow, why does not someone invite him on to discuss this. I would think if he had this car twice he would have a little more than some letters here and there. Would not the importation papers state that the car came in as a cut car - not like that would solve it completely. Is Straman able to confirm what cars it cut or is there a purposeful ambiguity around this allowing owners to claim otherwise??

Just curious would cutting a coupe prototype in the US in order to claim the car was an italian cut car make it anymore valuable than just leaving it as a prototype coupe - what do the prototype coupes go for???
wm hart (Whart)
Member
Username: Whart

Post Number: 638
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 2:35 pm:   

I actually placed a call to him. I misunderstood what was said at the outset about this being a spyder prototype, and you guys correctly straightened me out on that; indeed, he acknowledges as much on ebay, that the car was "cut." When i got him on the phone, he launched into a tirade about alleged experts, and someone's suggestion that the car had been cut by Straman. Anyway, it sounds like he wants close to "real" Daytona spyder money for this car, so its not really a bargain, and even if it is everything he says it is, not much more could buy one of the 12X "factory" spyders, so i doubt this is a contender. I did take a look at the one at Miller, which is gorgeous, but the ask is high, even for a real, low mileage factory spyder. Dr. Marvin F. did mention his sale of the 250 GTO to me, and was otherwise pleasant, once he let me know how much he was worth.
Tony Fuisz (Fuiszt)
New member
Username: Fuiszt

Post Number: 6
Registered: 10-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 2:35 pm:   

I'm sure he sold the gto on ebay too. Why can't he take an in focus picture of the ID plate?
Exactly the wrong kind of car to buy on ebay and the right kind of car to sell on ebay.
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member
Username: Lwausbrooks

Post Number: 558
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 2:14 pm:   

"I sold my 250GTO in 1989 to Mr. Matsushita for $14,2 million dollars...and that is the highest price ever obtained for an automobile....enough said for my credibility!"

Oh really? And what GTO was that? The GTO that sold for that price in 1989 was 3909GT, sold by Edward and John Harrison of Great Britain to Takeo Kato of Japan (and even that was not the "highest price ever obtained for an automobile," let alone a GTO). Matsushida never owned this car and "DR. Marvin Friedman" has never owned any 250 GTO, period. "Enough said for" his "credibility!"
Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member
Username: Cmparrf40

Post Number: 519
Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 10:49 am:   

A copy of his post on eBay:

Chassis Number is: 11929

Red with Tan Leather (Daytona seats) and Black convertible top

Boranni Wire wheels

Air-Conditioning

Florida title Reads 1967 Ferrari Convertible (states actual mileage)

Actual documented mileage is 24,000KM (approx 14,000 miles)

The total production for Factory built Ferrari Daytona prototypes was 4 cars.

The four cars produced by Ferrari were:

10287-1st Prototype referred to as "365"GTP" and was sold back in 1988 for 1.4 million dollars and was subsquently offered for several million dollars.

11001-2nd Prototype reffered to in the "Chinetti files" as "275 GTB/4 Daitona...and yes...that is exactly how it was spelled at that juncture in time...later, it was changed to Daytona. The error in spelling is understandable as there is no y in the Italian alphabet. (I'm a Paison...lol)

In 1967 the Daitona is thus a clear referance to ferrari's four-cam powered 1-2-3 victory at the Florida race track in early 1967. The official designation was to be 365 GTB/4 and the Daytona was subsquently dropped.

11795-3rd Prototype. It has a smaller trunk lid and almost no back to the car.

11929-4th Prototype (this exact car) This car most closely resembles the actual production car. The factory utilized some components of the existing 275 chassis as well as the 365 chassis. Afterall...it was a Prototype!

Under the hood the twin Dinoplex "spark boxes" were utilized as well as the Ferrari radiator which was used in the production of the Ferrari 330 model. This was the last prototype built by Ferrari prior to the actual production car and much experimentation is quite in evidence upon close examination. I have installed a modern Ferrari ignition system for fast and efficent starting and performance...but i left the Dinoplex's for posterity.

Ferrari produced a total of 1260 coupes, 121 Spyders and 4 prototypes. This is one of 4 Factory built prototypes!!!!!!

The very 1st production Daytona (365/GTB/4) was chassis number 12037 and production ended with 17087.

I have some interesting documentation on this car which will accompany the sale of this car.

I have in English (Dated July 18th, 1988) , documention from Ferrari Automobili SPA the following:

Chassis number 11929 is an ORIGINAL DAYTONA COUPE PROTOTYPE. Ferrai never authorized the conversion from coupe to Spyder for the 365 GTB/4 Daytona Ferrari produced 121 Original Daytona Spyder and 1260 Original Daytona Coupe

I have basically the same information in a telex from the Ferrari factory,but in Italian. The telex is dated 19.05.1986.

This car was never to have even left the factory...but somehow it was given to Formula race car driver Merzario as a gift...and in 1970 he took the car directly to Scaglietti in Italy where the Spyder conversion took place. This car was definitely done in Italy...and not in the U.S. Likewise the work took place in 1970. It was done exactly the same way as the 121 cars that ferrari sent to Scaglietti to be converted into Spyders as all cars were originally built as coupes with the convertible conversion being done only after they left the factory as coupes.

In my opinion...this car is actually more valuable than one of the 121 Spyders as it is far more rarer...it is one of 4 factory prototypes and the only one that was...and still is a Spyder.

I have owned this car twice...selling it once in the late 80's for well over one million dollars.

It has had a complete restoration...and as the pictures depict...it is in SHOWROOM NEW" condition...both cosmetically and mechanically...it is a very low mileage spectacular Ferrari and a joy to drive.

Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member
Username: Cmparrf40

Post Number: 518
Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 10:46 am:   

William, The date on the title is not significant. I believe this can easliy be answered in a couple of ways. The frame on this car is a mix of 275GTB and 365 so the origins of the components do pre-date 1969. It also could have been a typo at the DMV. finally, the other advantage could be traced to emmissions. In 1968, emission equipment first appeared on cars in the US. So perhaps the desire was to avoid any emission requirements when the car was imported in 1987.

I do not belive that there is any question that this is the prototype car, the question is when and who did the conversion.

I think the headlight issue is an important one as well, do not have that answer.

He is not saying this is the Spyder prototype, this is one of the original pre-production prototypes that was converted after it left the factory to Spyder specs.
Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member
Username: Amenasce

Post Number: 414
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 10:42 am:   

Thats not the first spyder but a Daytona Prototype converted into a spyder by scaglietti for driver Merzario in 1970 as the seller said . He never said this is the first daytona Spider or the daytona spider prototype.
Bill Sawyer (Wsawyer)
Member
Username: Wsawyer

Post Number: 574
Registered: 2-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 10:37 am:   

Remember, William, he is saying that this was a Daytona coupe prototype first, and then it was cut by Scaglietti in 1970 after it was given to Arturo Merzario.

We'll just have to wait until Wayne weighs in with his opinions on Dr. Friedman's note. If it is authentic it could be the Scaglietti spyder you are searching for.
wm hart (Whart)
Member
Username: Whart

Post Number: 637
Registered: 12-2001
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 10:28 am:   

1967 for a daytona spyder is contrary to everything i have read about the origin of the car as well. And, the first spyder prototype that i have seen is that yellow one, with the plexi nose, and the "blood trough" detailed in black. But the 1967 date surely is suspect, isn't it?
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi

Post Number: 2011
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 9:44 am:   

just curious, would this car come with seat belts? or were they normally added later?
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi

Post Number: 2010
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 9:41 am:   

in his ad he says he is a paison? Does that mean he is italian? wouldn't you be able to confirm his importation claims with Fritz at DOT/EPA
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi

Post Number: 2009
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 9:33 am:   

I love these debates - lets see where this goes. Chris did you point him to ferrarichat. I don't think he should be so defensive. He should understand these things are always debated. Just look at Jim's approach on his p4
Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member
Username: Cmparrf40

Post Number: 517
Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 9:29 am:   

I emailed the seller, here is his responce:

I don't know who your "sources" are...but I have been buying...selling...and collecting Ferraris for 42 years and I am known throughtout the world as an expert on Ferraris (vintage)....and personally had the pleasure of knowing Mr. Ferrari on a one to one basis...and I have documentation on this car from the Ferrari factory...Have your sources give me a call 1-800-930-3002 and I would be happy to speak with them...this car has never been to Straman or any other conversion house and I imported this car in 1987 to the United States for the very 1st time....

And my information on the last production Daytona (chassis number)comes in the form of a telex sent to me directly from the Ferrari factory (I still have the original copy)

Regards;

Dr. Marvin Friedman
Ft. Lauderdale,Florida

P.S. Not that it matters...but I sold my 250GTO in 1989 to Mr. Matsushita for $14,2 million dollars...and that is the highest price ever obtained for an automobile....enough said for my credibility! (story was featured on Life Styles of the Rich & Famous" with Robin Leach.

Wayne, sounds like he might be very credible! Perhaps your source is mistaken? I suspect you know Mr. Friedman.

In a subsequent email he informed the front inner fenders are indeed steel althought the picture looked like fiberglass to me, if indeed they are steel I would be very inclined to believe Scaglietti did indeed do the conversion.

As it stands right now, I have to give credence to his statements.




Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member
Username: Pcelenta

Post Number: 231
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 6:23 am:   

seller says florida title says 1967...that is what really raised my eyebrowe....yes, it still is a great looking car.
Dave Penhale (Dapper)
Member
Username: Dapper

Post Number: 415
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 4:26 am:   

Ughh, marginally nicer looking than the fixed head
Jason Godsil (Godsil)
Junior Member
Username: Godsil

Post Number: 220
Registered: 9-2001
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 1:41 am:   

Just an observation but wouldn't a factory prototype have the plexiglass headlight covers? This is what they were supposed to have and what the euro cars had. It wasn't until the Daytonas came to the US did they have to have regular pop-up headlights. Someone correct me if I am wrong but this to me just looks like a US Daytona Spyder and definately not a factory prototype.
L. Wayne Ausbrooks (Lwausbrooks)
Member
Username: Lwausbrooks

Post Number: 556
Registered: 8-2002
Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 12:19 am:   

Don't beleive the hype. This is what has surfaced on this one:

According to Hil Raab's s/n book, 11929 was, in fact, the 4th 365 GTB/4 prototype. So far, so good. The discrepencies are:

1. Car is late 1968 - early 1969 production, not 1967 as stated.
2. Car was converted to a spyder by Straman some time after 1979, not by Scaglietti in 1970. (This very reliable source had the car in his shop as a coupe in 1979!)
3. Last Daytona built was 17615, not 17087 as stated.
Andrew (Mrrou)
Member
Username: Mrrou

Post Number: 438
Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 10:24 pm:   

a PPI will reveal if its real or not...but it seems to be the real deal to me....incredable car!

andrew
Racer 001 (Mr_0011)
Member
Username: Mr_0011

Post Number: 427
Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 10:16 pm:   

That's very sweet. A Daytona Spyder... how cool... maybe it's not real... so what? It's got the look! :-)
John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Member
Username: Futureowner

Post Number: 297
Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 9:29 pm:   

Well, the car is still gorgeous!
Cmparrf40 (Cmparrf40)
Member
Username: Cmparrf40

Post Number: 516
Registered: 3-2002
Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 8:45 pm:   

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1874633035

well.......... it has interesting perigree.

I am sure Wayne knows the car. The desciption of the conversion is not quite accurate, the front inner fenders are fiberglass, not steel, like the 121 production cars, this is a big give away.
Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member
Username: Amenasce

Post Number: 409
Registered: 10-2001
Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 6:19 pm:   

any links please ?
Mitchell L. Davidson (Jussumfastgi)
Member
Username: Jussumfastgi

Post Number: 353
Registered: 4-2002
Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 5:46 pm:   

I saw that, very interesting indeed!
Paul (Pcelenta)
Junior Member
Username: Pcelenta

Post Number: 228
Registered: 7-2002
Posted on Wednesday, December 11, 2002 - 5:36 pm:   

anyone see the daytona prototype listed on e-bay? I though the spyder wasn't shown till 1969...anyone know about this car? seems strange 67 daytona spyder?

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