| Author |
Message |
Jeff B. (Miltonian)
New member
Username: Miltonian
Post Number: 4
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 1:58 pm: | |
Mr. Parker, is it really possible to make any kind of a meaningful cam belt inspection on a 348 with the engine in the car? I find that very, very hard to believe, but I'm more than willing to be educated on the subject! Please elaborate. From looking at the car, and looking at pictures of the engine on the bench, I would have thought it was impossible. Thank you! |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1603
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 8:18 am: | |
You do not have to remove the engine to inspect the cam belt(s) on a 328, TR, 348 nor Boxer. You can inspect the tension and condition from below and/or above although it does take patience. |
Frank K Lipinski (Kaz)
Junior Member
Username: Kaz
Post Number: 58
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 5:51 am: | |
Justin -
I've herd the same thing...you have to pull the motor to get to the inspection panel..my car is not here yet so I don't know.
I'm still going with 30K / 5 years unless a new bullet proof belt comes out with improved tensioners.
Much has been said about belts going from over reving (bad down shift, etc). This may belong over on the Tech side, but don't F-cars have electronic rev limiters?
Just curious.. |
Justin Randall Kenyon (Kenyon)
New member
Username: Kenyon
Post Number: 45
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, December 13, 2002 - 4:55 am: | |
To ispect a a belt on 348 or 355 don't you have to take the engine out ? If so then you might as well change it... Aren't you !!!!! for a new one. No more labour or time involved really... |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1602
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 3:04 pm: | |
Per the mechanics I have spoken with the reason the rare cam belt breaks is usually operator error. Things like not properly warming up the engine prior to running it hard or making an improper downshift over reving the engine can cause a cam belt to break. I did hear of a rock getting caught in the belt/pulley causing the belt to break once, but that would have happened evn with anew belt. |
Paul Newman (Newman)
Member
Username: Newman
Post Number: 839
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 2:07 pm: | |
I enquired about the ed gault system and found it to be cost prohibitive. Partly due to the cdn dollar as well. I forget what he quoted me, something like $2kUS or something close to it. I figure it would take a long time to recover that cost with a belt change every 5 years. If you have the new system, how long will you go without a belt change? 5 years is probably a good idea, maybe 7? Wasnt worth it for me because I do my own repairs. |
BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 3117
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 2:06 pm: | |
Theoretically the 308 belts go to 52k too according to Ferrari. It all depends I guess. I mean if you drive regularly so the belts stay in good shape and don't drive hard you might be alright...to me it's just pushing your luck though. I sound like I'm running propaganda for a shop, it's just how a I feel. Another point most people don't realize is that if you service your car often chances are you save money in the long run. If you bring your car in twice in a 50k mile interval, chances are it's gonna be cheaper than bringing it in once. The labor involved in working on a car that doesn't get worked on often is infinitely greater than a car that comes in regularly. Just my $.02. |
David J. Smith (Darkhorse512)
Junior Member
Username: Darkhorse512
Post Number: 81
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 1:59 pm: | |
D Jones. I knew a guy years ago who had a belt go on a '90 TR. He described the failure like a social insurrection of cheap parts vs. expensive parts.
The relativley cheap tensioner bearing seized and managed to shear teeth off a belt, bend a bank of valves, ding a few pistons and smoothed out some cam lobes.
How many of you guys have the Ed Gault system?
Let me see if I'm on the right track?
F355 and newer cars have better pullies, tensioners and round toothed kevlar belts that are less likely to jump or break before 52K mi. |
BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 3116
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 1:58 pm: | |
When the belt breaks you're get piston valve collision. It all depends on engine speed obviously, but you can expect to replace the piston, new valve, the valve seat is probably gonna be shot. All these parts cost a quite a bit of money, and there's a ton of labor involved to get the seat out, etc. This is all on top of pulling the engine, removing the intake system, and pulling one of the heads. For the most part the cars that come in with belt breaks are track cars, of course that doesn't mean it never happens to street cars. The last car I saw come in with a broken belt was a 355 Challenge actually. It costs a lot to have it rebuilt, it still costs quite a bit to do it yourself. Seeing all different cars with different problems makes me lean towards sticking to changing with 30k miles on the belts and chances are never have a problem. A lot less work and money in the long run, plus some peace of mind. |
Paul Newman (Newman)
Member
Username: Newman
Post Number: 838
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 1:57 pm: | |
Then on the 355 I would guess that your belt intervals could be extended greatly. they seem to last on other imports and domestics. I dont see any reason why they would fail sooner other than a below standard bearing in the idlers. |
BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 3113
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 1:48 pm: | |
348 does have one, I was thinking more round versus square tooth. It probably has square tooth as a guess. F40 has like the 308 as far as I know. I'm pretty sure it is with the 355 that they switched to the more round tooth design. Don't know when 12s did though. 550 has the more round tooth design, if I was to guess I would say that was the beginning for them. |
jeff ryerson (Atheyg)
Junior Member
Username: Atheyg
Post Number: 114
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 1:42 pm: | |
I'd take a new round tooth system with addl redundency, 2 smaller belts per side, if one breaks no damage, |
Paul Newman (Newman)
Member
Username: Newman
Post Number: 837
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 1:33 pm: | |
Bret, the valve angles on the 308QV and up is different than say my 79 2 valver. Because of this, the cams are closer together on each head. A pulley swap might work on your QV, belts might be an issue but it wont work on mine. I looked into it. Not to mention the single belt setup on the 348 vs 308. Correct me on the 348 belt if Im wrong but I thought they had only one. As well as I thought the 348 was a square tooth along with the f40 and so on. |
David Jones (Dave)
Member
Username: Dave
Post Number: 492
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 1:22 pm: | |
Ernie, I guess you have never priced parts for you engine have you?
valves, pistons, rings, gaskets, seals, so on...
Or do you have any clue as to what happens when a belt breaks on a ferrari...
I am not pushing the belt change issue because I'm in league with Ferrari and want you to spend your hard earned cash on a scam service.
I have seen first hand what happens to these engines when a valve or two collide with pistons...
By the way, there is no way in hell that you could rebuild a Ferrari engine after this happens for $1850.00 even if you were to do the work yourself...
It might behove some of you Ferrari owners out there that are bitching about the cost of belt changes, to learn how to do it yourselfs,
or maybe buy a car that is less expensive to maintain. |
BretM (Bretm)
Advanced Member
Username: Bretm
Post Number: 3109
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 1:14 pm: | |
Ed's system resembles the newer (355 on, maybe 348s, can't remember for sure) belts used by Ferrari. Of course they still have the same service intervals (don't want to lose profit here) but they are a much better system than the 308s. Leads me to wonder how hard it would be to get the pullies off a wrecked 355 and put them on the 308. I guess after it's all back together and I run it a year or so I'll have to see how the belts are running and decide if it's worth changing the system. I think a lot of the belt snapping is luck of the draw to be honest. You can do maintenance to give yourself better luck, but it's still bound to happen to someone. |
Adam Goldman '86 TR (Icnsltmfg)
Member
Username: Icnsltmfg
Post Number: 496
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 1:12 pm: | |
My fault....dyslexia sets in.... |
Greg Rodgers (Joechristmas)
Member
Username: Joechristmas
Post Number: 541
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 12:32 pm: | |
The system Ed made used the round tooth design. |
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 953
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 12:29 pm: | |
Adam,
My 308 has square teeth.
M |
Adam Goldman '86 TR (Icnsltmfg)
Member
Username: Icnsltmfg
Post Number: 495
Registered: 8-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 12:18 pm: | |
Ed Gault was on the right track a few years back. He adopted the same belt system Harley uses for their 100K DRIVE belt. It is made by Gates has square teeth, and is made with kevlar. This is the type of system we should be using, however it requires a change of all of the pullies to match the new teeth. |
Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member
Username: Timn88
Post Number: 1743
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 12:11 pm: | |
Why is the engine so hard on the tensioners and bearings? Is it the way they were designed that causes them to wear out so quickly? I suspect its the high state of tune ferrari engines are in, and the way they are driven. Most people dont own a ferrari to drive around at under 4k rpms. |
Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member
Username: Miami348ts
Post Number: 3465
Registered: 5-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 11:57 am: | |
Frank,
the belt is not the problem. Belts last much longer than 15K miles or 5 years. What is the problem is the bearings on the pullies and tensioners. They go bad, with that they do not pull the belt tight anymore and thus the belt jumps a notch or jumps off the guides and then breaks. I just had that with the belt on my Jeep 2 days ago. Once it jumps the belt breaks in half. And that was a new belt that was put on the car 1/2 a year ago.
You can usually hear the belts before they go. You can hear them at a 5year non serviced car flapping in the back when the car is cold and started up.
In your service book it states correctly that belts have to be replaced every 52K Miles but it also says inspected every 15K Miles. If the inspection reveils a lose belt you gotta change the pullies.
|
Ernie Bonilla (Ernie)
Member
Username: Ernie
Post Number: 452
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 11:43 am: | |
I'm with Frank on this one. I really think it is a load of garbage. Cam belts break on every car, and timing chains too, yes timing chains. I had a chain bust on me and to get the motor rebuilt was only $1,850. So this crap about $15-25,000 motor rebuilds is a pile. For that kind of money you better have a more powerful motor than when it was new. Don't give me the ol "It's a Ferrari" load either. Frank is right, this only happens here in the U.S.. It is a long standing policy of FNA that we get over charged. If the owners book says 52,000 miles then that is when the belt will get changed on my car. "IF" the belt breaks then I will get it rebuilt, and it won't be by some rip off dealership. |
Matt Lemus (Mlemus)
Member
Username: Mlemus
Post Number: 950
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 11:39 am: | |
I agree. 5 years or 30k. which ever comes first. Don't most belts break right after they have been changed? |
Peter Topman (Peter_topman)
New member
Username: Peter_topman
Post Number: 21
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 11:06 am: | |
For what it's worth :
I had a belt break on my last 308 (5 years ago). It had had approx. 15k miles and 5 years since its last service (which was done with the prior owner at a dealer).
Ever since then, and many $$$$$$ later, I have them changed out every 5 years irrespective of mileage..just to be safe. |
Ben Lobenstein 90 TR (Benjet)
Member
Username: Benjet
Post Number: 943
Registered: 1-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 11:02 am: | |
$100/yr with decreasing payouts as the years increase ;)
-Ben |
arthur chambers (Art355)
Member
Username: Art355
Post Number: 842
Registered: 6-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 11:00 am: | |
fRANK:
There is a gentlemen around SF who owns a 91 or 92 512tr. He drives it daily, and it has about 58k on it. Car has been properly serviced, etc. He was getting close to the 2n 30k service and while at Ferrari of SF it started making noise from the engine. Guess what: the belt broke, some 2k before the service was due.
For whatever reason, the belts are spotty, and need to be regularly replaced. Instead of 7k for the service, he now needs 25k for a rebuilt motor.
When I got my 30k service (at 30k) the belts and pulleys needed to be replaced. I don't know how much longer they would have lasted, but they certainly weren't in good shape.
I guess that whether the belts need replacement is a function of how the car is driven, etc.
I'm in favor of the early changes, but that's me, unless it involves my law practice, I generally don't take too many risks.
Art |
David Jones (Dave)
Member
Username: Dave
Post Number: 491
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 10:19 am: | |
I think your on to something Tom...
Cam Belt Mart..
We will insure any cam belt change for $49.95 |
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi
Post Number: 2012
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 10:15 am: | |
expensive insurance at that, hey maybe this is a business opportunity. offer warranties on cam belts. collect prems and pay out the claims every so often. This might have potential |
David Jones (Dave)
Member
Username: Dave
Post Number: 490
Registered: 4-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 10:10 am: | |
Frank, the flip side of the coin is that I have seen, If memory serves, 7 Ferrari's with broken cam belts, as well as other vehicles makes... When it happens it's not pretty, and it's very expensive. You can not inspect a belt for internal cord rott by inspecting the exterior.
Tom is pretty much on the money, it's like insurance, sure you could drive without it and save money, but when something you can't control happens, I would sure hate to be without it.
Of course there are tons of people out there that are still having unprotected sex with strangers, so if not changing you belts floats your boat, then don't change them.
|
TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member
Username: Tifosi
Post Number: 2008
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 9:29 am: | |
your probably right, but americans are big insurance buyers, which is essentially what you are doing changing them more frequently. as others have pointed out if you save the money spent on the belt changes you will probably have enough for rebuild on the off chance the belt goes in a 10 or 15 year period |
Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member
Username: Parkerfe
Post Number: 1601
Registered: 9-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, December 12, 2002 - 9:24 am: | |
I am beginning to believe that all this crap about needing a need cam belt every couple of years is just made up so us Ferrari owners will spend money at dealers and other service facilities. Just think of the money FNA dealers make on these services ! After speaking with numerous mechanics across the world while looking for the parking lamps for my Boxer I have found out that these type of services are ONLY done for the most part here in the USA. The shops I have spoke with in Europe, Japan, South African and other countries seem to just inspect the cam belts at every oil change and only change them if they look frayed or are getting loose. They only change an otherwise good cam belt at the recommended factory intervel which is 52,500 miles in most Ferraris. In the approximately 15 years I have owned Ferraris I have only heard of one car, a 355 that broke a cam belt. And that was done at the track when he made a improper downshift causing the engine to over rev. |