| Author | Message | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
|
Hey Rob, I agree with you and being one of the GMBs at this point I want everyone of you new guys to know that I apoloigze and the only reason I have said what I have said is because I feel that this has gone past the point of sanity. The same things keep being repeated over and over. What will be solved? Like Julian said lets get back to Ferrari talk on a great site that Rob has created. | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
|
Don and Tenney, the only way at this point is to direct you to the opinion of a man who just spoken. Julian who seems to be unbiased has said what I tried to say in my former comments. Just let it drop and lets talk Ferrari. Obviously you don't want to do that and as Don says it is a open forum. So my opinion is as good as his. | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
|
Actually, the subject matter in this thread is excellent... it may be one of the best ever. Watching out for advertising and/or possible misrepresentation when purchasing a used Ferrari (or any other car for that matter). It's just too bad the subject was sparked by one of our own. Look at the Showroom, it appears most of us bought our Ferraris pre-owned. So the question becomes, how does one sort through the BS in any ad and validate how the car is represented??? It's a semi-educated crap-shoot with any used car. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
|
FerrariChat.com has over 540 users now, I just want to FYI all new users that most of the time we don't bicker like this. Only about a half dozen of us have obtained status of "Grand Master Bickerer", but the other 530 users or so have not. Don't be scared off by us GMB's. | ||
| Don Norton (Litig8r)
|
Mr. Magoo: I don't appreciate your attempts to stifle the discussion on this matter. And, if you are an attorney, you should be aware that your use of the word "hear say" [sic] is incorrect. All of the discussion here comes from statements made by the Seller himself in his advertisement. There is no hearsay involved. I think it's disgraceful that someone would do something like this, and I'm glad that I have a forum to relate that opinion. If you don't want to participate in the discussion, don't. I think the easiest way to end this matter would be for the eBay Seller to acknowledge that his advertisement was misleading and it was rude to waste the time of the EBay users. Imagine how excited those bidders must have been to be bidding on a Ferrari. Unknown to them, the Seller had purposefully made his reserve about $10k over the market price of the car FOR THE EXPRESS PURPOSE OF NOT SELLING IT. Not cool, to say the least. If you want to file a lawsuit for defamation against me, e-mail me and I'll tell you just where you can serve your papers. | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
|
WARREN, it seems your finesse game is still in fine form. I was merely offering you a simple outlet to perhaps better enjoy your Ferrarichat experience. It appears, though, that you're content to continue to blurt your repetetive plea in this thread. And I'm just as fine with that as I am with the various retorts of others that you seem so eager to speak out against. Peace out, my Ferrari lovin' brother. | ||
| Julian Pham (Julian_Blk348)
|
When I first discovered Ferrarichat, I was proud to be apart of a forum of classy people. This has been a great site for sharing ideas and personal experiences. But now I'm starting to feel like watching HBO Fight Night everytime I log on. I hope we can go back to using this wonder site, that Rob has created, for the purpose of sharing our wonderful pride of ferrari ownership rather than personal attacks. Can't we all get along? let's talk ferrari  | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
|
TENNEY, It's obvious all you want to do then is continue the gossip because you have nothing better to do. Things like this don't need to be brought out here. Go ahead run your mouth about something you have no proof of. If you just want to keep the bullshit flowing it seems you're the right guy to do it. | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
|
Warren, if you find this thread to be uninteresting, unpleasant or redundant, it can be avoided by simply not clicking on it anymore. The great things is, there are a number of other topics to chose from that you may find informative, entertaining and, minimally, less frustrating. On the other hand, it seems as though others are still interested in discussing the topic, and they should feel free to do so, IMO. | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
|
Don and others who have started and carried on this frenzy of hear say and the guessing of what may or may not have been the intent. LET IT DROP. WHAT HAS BEEN DONE IS DONE WHAT HAS BEEN SAID HAS BEEN SAID. LET'S GO ON TO THE THINGS THE F.C. LINE IS ABOUT. FERRARI TECH. AND GENERAL DISCUSSION ABOUT FERRARI NOT PERSONALITIES. WHY KEEP BRINGING THIS UP. YOU WOULD THINK THAT THERE WAS A ATTACK OR SOME INJUSTICE MADE DIRECTLY ON YOU. LET'S FORGET IT AND GO ON TO MORE PLEASANT COMMENTS. | ||
| charles (86mondial)
|
beware of daniel schmitt and company as well. they have been trying to sell a 328. i have heard many horror stories about them. | ||
| Herbert Edward Gault (Irfgt)
|
He listed all the maintainence he had done to the car, and if I was a buyer I would have asked if the car had ever been wrecked. If the answer was no, then there would have been a lie, but as a juror I did not see any lies. The car would have also been sold if the price was right. Everything I have is for sale for the right price. I am not easy but I can be made. | ||
| Christiank (Christiank)
|
Hey Don: Did you get that story about used car business is honest from your grandmother? Stop dreaming and get back to reality! | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
|
Don , you're way behind, as you know all that has been discussed before. It's a old and boring subject at this point. Why don't you let dead dogs lie and don't beat a dead horse{No pun intended}. | ||
| Don Norton (Litig8r)
|
If you look at the ebay ad it's plainly false. I don't think anyone has an obligation to disclose repairs, but in this case the seller puffed this car to the max, and said "Following is the complete list of service items with the dates each service was performed. 59,000 miles (that's less than 4000 per year) · New throttle cable 6/01 · New Optima battery 6/01 · Rebuilt starter 6/01 · New fuel accumulator 6/01 · New alternator 8/00 · New clutch 8/00 · Cam seals 7/00 · Suspension overhaul 7/00 · Cooling system overhaul 6/00 · New water pump 6/00 · New thermostat 8/00 · Timing belt 6/00 · New clutch, pressure plate, main seal replaced 8/00 · New clutch cable 8/00 · New radiator rodding 6/00 · New coolant overflow box 6/00 · New cooling hoses 6/00 · New idler pulley bearings 6/00 · Tune-up, including timing belts and idler pulleys, plugs, alternator belt, A/C belt, air filter, oil, oil filter, fuel filter 6/00 · All brakes, engine mounts, transaxle lube change with Redline, and transmission shift alignment 3/00 · New brake pads all around 3/00 · New engine mounts 3/00 · Transaxle fluid changes and shifting adjusted 3/00 · New battery box cover and nuts 3/00 · Adjust front wheel bearings and repack 7/00 · New distributor gaskets 7/00 · All new A/C system including rebuilt compressor and new dryer, expansion valve, R12, and seals (blows 38F at the vents) 6/99 · New axle boots on the right axle 5/99 · New Pirelli Z-rated tires on 16" Ferrari rims 4/01 · Engine completely rebuilt (1997 -- 5500 miles on rebuild)- Rebuild included all rings, valve guides, reground valve seats, all bearings, main journals, all top cam seals and O-rings, one cylinder sleeve (dented on removal), gaskets and a lot more. work done by International Auto Repair and Restoration in Vista, CA 92084. This work started out as a simple valve guide seal replacement but the heads were stuck so ended up with the engine out and taking everything down to the journals as most of the labor was already done and it just cost a little more for all the parts. This was all done by the previous owner. 6/97 · Went through entire transmission and checked all synchros (good) 6/97 · Changed velour guides for windows 4/96 · New right window cable 2/96 · New temperature sending switch and water temp thermistor 5/97 · New lambda sensor 11/96 · New brake master and slave cylinders 1/96 · Fuel injection system rebuilt 11/96 · Rodded radiator 5/96 · Replaced all coolant hoses with Gold Stripe (except the one going to the heater) 6/97 · New bushing in gearbox linkage 6/97 · New fan and defroster switches 12/95 · Rebuilt left rear caliper 1/96 · New handbrake cable 1/96 · New mirror control switch 1/96 · New electric defogger switch 2/96 · Installed 2 used heater fans 2/96 · Clean and repaint exhaust shroud 2/96 · New right door electric lock motor 3/96 · New fuel line from fuel distributor to right hand side of tank 3/96 · New electric antenna motor 3/96 · New distributor rotors 5/96 · New horn compressor 9/96 · New water plenum cap 10/96 · New oil cooler soft mounts 3/96 · Replaced oil lines with braided lines 3/96 · Replaced vacuum lines with braided lines 3/96 · New Ferrari sparkplug cables 11/96 · Rebuilt steering rack 4/96 · Oil changed religiously every 2000 miles or less. · New battery 5/99 · New wheel centers 5/99 · New shift gate 5/99 . Nowhere in that list, which is represented to be COMPLETE, is there any mention of the body and repair work done after the collision. That's a lie, plain and simple. What also is bothering me is that he had no real intention of selling this car, by admission. I think it's rude to waste the time of all of these bidders when he has no honest intention of selling the car. | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
|
Good for you Martin. Sorry for your loss. but if you have the info. tag#, car type, and a witness I think your case is over half won at this stage. I'm sure you have a police report on this also. Right? He is already in big trouble for hit and run. I hope the guy has some assets you can put liens against or attach if you need to. It's too bad about the insurance co. not coming in to appraise the damage. Your insurance co. will pay to fix your car and subregate against his ins. co. anyway. Hang in there I think you're going to come out ok. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
|
Buyer beware when you buy my BMW 840Ci. I will not disclose. I can only say that it stinks that I have a loss of value, if I am forced to disclose that dent and repaint, get less bucks and the other guy walks without paying for my loss. Lets imagine somebody crashes into your Ferraris. Causes $ 3000 damage and his insurance pays for your damage. Now you are between a rock and a hard place. As you try to tell Bret here, it is a big deal and you have to disclose. You all know as well that disclosing will result in the buyer beating down the price because now it is not a "accident free" car. So in order to sell your Ferrari you have to take lets say $ 2000 less than you could have gotten if it was not damaged. Damage is damage, monetary in form of the repair, value damage in form of the loss in value and possibly pain and suffering, if you were insured. Pain and suffering is being paid and can be calculated, why should we not be compensated for value damage to our cars? Yes, Christian is right, Germany and most other European States do compensate for value damage. Magoo, I know I will not get anything there, but it still is not fair. The guy who hit my car took off and told a witness "F**k you" when he told him he hit my car. I will actually sue him in court. I have the papers already drawn up and just wait for the number form my body shop to put in. I will make him pay for the damage on the BMW and for half of the repaint on my 348 bumper! All will be on one neat bill for the damage on the BMW. Because he ran he has forfeit the right to have his own insurance adjuster look at the damage. I may tag on some loss of value and argue this care in court with the judge. Who knows I may be lucky and win. | ||
| Don Norton (Litig8r)
|
I think "buyer beware" is good advice because you should always anticipate that the seller is dishonest. But I'd hope for more honesty than that. | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
|
Peter, That comment says it all. They titled the section "Buyer Beware" which should be the caution in transacting any deal between people without contracts or legal representation. If you have questions or are in doubt then consult a professional. Otherwise you're on your own. | ||
| Herbert Edward Gault (Irfgt)
|
I know in some cases you are given a loss of value or depreciation from insurance companies for collision damage. | ||
| Peter Boray (Gts308qv)
|
The end result is all contained in the title of this thread - "Buyer Beware". This goes for any item you may intend to purchase, from any source. It is up to the purchaser to ask the relevant questions. This is the reality of it. | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
|
No Christiank, The coffee was to hot causing her to burn herself when she stupidly poured it in her lap. | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
|
Christiank, You're right. Some of these guys are beating a dead drum about all this B.S.. I say lets drop it and tend to our own business. | ||
| Christiank (Christiank)
|
That's a good topic. If somebody wreckes your car in Germany he/she does not only have to pay the repair costs but also the "loss in value". But you guys are overdoing it here. The real loss in value is maybe 500 dollars in Bret's case, and because we are talking money here (forget all that BS about flawless car and sleepness nights because of a scratch), that's the maximum he is trying to cheat (if he did so, which is not proofed). BTW isn't it the USA where a big lady got 5 mio dollars from Mc Donalds because they put cream in her coffee instead of the requested skim milk? LOL | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
|
C'mon Martin you can't be serious. You can only be compensated for the damage done by him to your car. What do you want to sue him for Defamation of character? I don't think that will work in this case. I hope you got his insurance co. info, Name, address, license number etc. Somehow I think you knew that anyway. Martin, you ain't that dumb. Good Luck. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
|
While we are at the subject. On Tuesday an idiot ran into my parked BMW. He dented the door. Will cost about $ 500 to repair correctly. Will I need to disclose? Wouldn't that justify me getting a cash reward for a loss of value due to the accident? Magoo P.A., what is your take on this? | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
|
Is Sandra our 2nd female on the FerraiChat? | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
|
BObD, Do you think Uncle Magoo could be a attorney? Stay tuned. | ||
| Sandra Cairncross (Sandrac)
|
Yes, Scott, I strongly suggest doing a carfax report on any used car, exotic or otherwise. My friend bought a used Acura, but did the carfax after the purchase...surprise, it had less mileage on the clock than it did 3 years previous. I agree with you that true car enthusiasts see vehicles in a different light than normal car buyers. We scrutinize more, critic more, expect more than most. Where the average person would not even notice that shade difference in paint on a panel and not really care if it had been repaired previously, we "true nuts" like to know all the nuances of our next "baby". I sold a car that had been in an accident and repaired(correctly) and did not disclose that information to the buyer because they didn't ask. When she asked me later if it had been in an accident at any time I, of course, told her "yes". She had wrecked it and the bodyshop told her it looked like there had been previous repair. I was not being devious, the paint was flawless, the repair had been done 6 years previous. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
|
Ups, here it is back up again....sorry Bret. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
|
David; the 348 book is in german and is from called "348 Ferrari" by Wolfgang Schruff if I am correct, I have the book home. All in german though, sorry. Great interesting artices about the development and everything related to this car. They did their homework. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
|
Gheez, I can not believ that this topic is still on top, ups, I just put it back there... sorry! | ||
| BobD (Bobd)
|
Brett, do you have an Uncle Magoo? :-) | ||
| Chris_N_Chicago (Chris_N_Chicago)
|
Everyone please stop emailing me , and thanking me for not posting any emails signed Ralp Nader! | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
|
BRET, as far as I'm concernd this bull session is over. Good luck in selling your car after all these accussations. I hope this hasn't caused a problem in you selling the car. If it has you do have the option of seeking compensation. | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
|
Look in the March 6 of the showroom where Bret talks about making the car A1 better than new. If he was trying to defraud would he post such a comment? Think about it? Can you prove otherwise. I don't think so. | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
|
The other comment I have to make RE: this attack on Bret is Where is the MALICIOUS INTENT on Brets' part to defraud. Because he forgot to include the repair in his ad? I don't think so. Weak case guys. Be careful, you could and maybe already have, stuck your necks out too far. | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
|
You know guys, this thing is going to ridiculous propotions. I read some where in the comments that Bret should have been honest with the guy about the car. What proof other than hear say is there. You know you guys are beating up on Bret and it really is not your business. If you are the person who talked to Bret and you think he lied to you then approach him one on one. Don't get a feeding frenzy going like you have here and waste good time of other chat members. There is also another side of this. Bret could sue you for defamation of character. This happens when you cause the vehicle not to be able to be sold because of your comments. He then has a financial loss. If I were Bret and this happened I would name each and every one of you and sue you for my loss and defamation of character. Don't laugh It could happen. You better have ironclad proof because you may have to pay a attorney to defend you if he sues. If you don't mind that keep going. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
|
Good post Scott. | ||
| Scott Anderson (Srandrsn)
|
I know Bret wants this end but I just have to make some comments. I am a car nut! I've got a garage full of old corvettes (along with the 308 GTS I bought a couple of months ago)and assorted other things. I take great pride in my cars for their condition, originality and appearence. Likewise I even take greater pride for the time care and love I give them. So when I'm snooping around at a car show, auction or a dealership it really irritates me when the seller starts talking about the car and you know he's fibbing or giving you a line. A while back I swung into this small dealership to look at a 66 corvette convrt. I pop the hood and as I'm looking around this grease-ball salesman comes out and the first thing he says is "she's all original". I laugh out loud as I'm looking at an chromed Edlebrock carb, Moroso air cleaner cover, hooker headers and neon yellow plug wires. All I can think is that some poor sap is going to plunk down his hard earned money on this P.O.S and when he finds out what he's actually got he's gonna be pissed. Similarly just before I found the car I was to eventually buy I went to look at a 308 down in minneapolis (which is close by). The car was advertised on World wide wheels.com as a euro car red/tan in excellent condition. In less than one minute I knew that I had wasted my time coming to see this car. The paint was unevenly faded (strange) the interior stank, stereo wires hanging everywhere, trail of oil from the garage. etc. As I'm looking at clearly visible sanding marks in the bondo they used to repair the RR qtr panel I ask "has the car ever been repaired", answer: No the cars been "mint" all its life. I get home and do a carfax and the car comes up with a 30,000 mile odometer discrepency. All I can think is some poor sap is gonna be pissed! I finally bought a car from a guy in Chicago. The car needed some work but the guy was toataly up front with me; was serviced appro 3 yrs ago but didn't have the records, FINE. Pass side door skin was replaced (rust)when car was toatally repainted (beautifully BTW) FINE. Has overheating problem, FINE...etc. the guy was forthright, the price was right, I was happy to give him the check. Overall there is a brother-hood (of men and women)of car enthuisists, weather its Ferrari's, Vette's, Harleys, Porsches, whatever. No matter what cars we own/have owned we all share a common passion that "normal motorists" don't & can't relate to. And I feel that with that brother-hood comes certain obligations. Some of which include taking pride in the car/cars you own. Respecting other car enthusists no matter what make or model they have. Representing the collector/specialty car community admirably. Being honest with the others who share your passion and being honest with those about to share your passion...etc. This Bret thing is a tough call. If you look at the pictures its easy to tell the damage wasn't too serious. It was poor judgement not to disclose the damage knowing people knew and that pitcures existed. Anyone would be hard pressed to find any 15-20 year old car that hadn't had something repaired or repainted, especially a car that begs to be driven like a Ferrari. If the car was properly repaired there should be no reason not to disclose it, and it shouldn't matter to the prospective buyer. Its just an easy excuse for those who probably weren't really interested. True car guys (& girls) should be honest with other car guys and in the end everyone will respect you for it. Sorry this got so long-winded. | ||
| Tenney (Tenney)
|
As far as the debate is concerned, my take is that honesty is the best policy. Apply to either side as you will. An interesting bit of trivia. Ferrari N/A completely repainted more than a few brand new F40's prior to delivery because of quality issues. Apparently, being one of (if not the) first cars featuring carbon composite body panels - paint application was an untried science and didn't meet the standards (not that high to begin with, IMO) in a number of cases. In fact it has been said that a repainted F40 is easy to spot because it tends to look "too good". | ||
| Herbert Edward Gault (Irfgt)
|
Makes sense to me. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
|
You FL guys have some fuckin act. You send me like 20 emails from various scum bads that I don't know. I notice no one puts any of the things you said to me. You edit and "summarize" everything I say to make me look like an •••••••. That email was sent to a guy that said I saw the pics of your car and started getting on my case, so I responded sarcastically. But they don't tell anyone else that I only wrote it because they were busting my balls. The guys from FL that were actually interested got a whole detailed story that I wrote for them about it. Only the assholes (who were obviously interested in nothing but giving me a hard time)got sarcasm and wit. You guys need something to do I mean come on, get a life already. You have to have some sort of mental problem to feel the dire need to get involved with someone else who you don't know and than totally irrationally try to argue with them. This is how I look at it with any of the assholes who started this thing. I can never win a logical argument with an illogical person. The reserve was significantly higher than 45K, I have my reasons for not wanting to actually sell it on ebay, and it's non of your business why. If someone hypothetically bid 100K than they're dumb enough that I would just sell it to them. And along with what Martin said, you ever watch the videos of them making 360 Modenas. The car is painted 6 fuckin times before it leaves the factory and then raped out on the track breaking axles, gearboxes, and various other components. So I would suggest you don't get too hung up on how pristine your car is. WTF it's a car, what do you think it's meant for. The point is, it's a clear title, it wasn't even close to having structural damage, and it was repaired with all Ferrari parts and by a professional in exotics. I never deceived anyone who geniunely asked about the car and the condition. So, •••• you if you're gonna keep on giving me •••• cause you got you're head up your ass if you listen what these guys are saying. The 308 will never be a classic, it is a car meant to be driven and as long as it is always kept up to standards regardless of what happens, it is a true Ferrari. If you're gonna learn anything from an 18 year old it's MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS. I'm not looking for any of you to respond. It's over, I tried to tell you guys this awhile ago. Let it go, it's not your problem and no one here has any right to judge anyone else. | ||
| KH (H00kem)
|
Bret, make sure you understand the NY consumer laws...you may be headed for a big legal mess having falsely advertised the car in writing to the public..you imply that the car has a pristine history by stating that it has a clean '99 Carfax report. I am not typically on your side of the bench in these matters. Bret, let me assure you that the office of Consumer Advocacy for the State of New York monitors these kinds of representations (hint, hint and no, I don't sell cars). My non-official advice is to modify your Ebay Ad immediately to to indicate that the car was wrecked and repaired, email the change to those who have bid (save copies)so you can prove in a court of law that you told the buyer of the true history....doesn't matter what you say to them verbally, it won't help your case in court. Just trying to save you time and money big guy. Deceit in this case could be very expensive. | ||
| nick l (Nsxnick)
|
that was gore vs. bwm. dr gore was awarded 4mil (later reduced to 2mil). but that was because bmw had a policy to delibarately conceal repaintings even to the dealerships. even if the dealers questioned it, the policy was to deny it. in other words, fraud. dealers are not required to volunteer information about repainted panels unless they are specifically asked by the customer. | ||
| David Albright (Dalbright)
|
Wasn't there a lawsuit a few years back where a guy won millions from BMW NA/BMW Dealer for selling him a brand new car that had been repainted (or partially repainted)? I expect that used cars...even exotics will have there share of fender benders, dings, repaints..etc etc, but I dont think it's really acceptable for a new car dealer to sell a car and not disclose any issues. With a new car you expect it to be free of hassles! Martin....which 348 book are you reading? | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
|
Let me all give your some inside here: Ferrari actually repairs and repaints cars off the assembly line. I am reading a book about the 348 and its history. One chapter is about the manufacturing process at the Ferrari plant. All dings and dents that have been on a car will be redone and repainted at Ferrari until the car is okay. They do not install a new panel, they fix it. They have a computer check out every crack of every car for 1 1/2 hours before it leaves the factory. When you think you are buing a brand new car with 0 miles, news, your car has 60 miles on it already driven by one of the 6 Test Drivers for Ferrari. They take out EVERY car made for a one hour test run in the street! My advise: GET OVER IT! Nobody here has a car that is worth $250K and is a true classic. Even those have probelms. They were raced and have been repainted, repaired, crashed and parts changed, bodies changed, cooling slots cut into them etc. That does not do much for their value, why worry about it. It is not a salvage or rebuild title. Leave Bret alone! | ||
| nick l (Nsxnick)
|
i bought a new car from a dealer a while back. a few years later, i was getting it appraised by another dealer for a possible trade in. the new dealer told me that the quarter panel was definately repainted! i was the first owner. apparently there are no laws against doing body or mechanical work to new cars without divulging it to a customer. i was so ticked off. who would ever think to ask a new car dealer if the car had been worked on after it came off of the assembly line. | ||
| Najib Amanullah (Najib)
|
Just to add to this subject, one of the first questions I have asked about all 348's I have been interested in is whether they have been in an accident. For a car that is your hobby, not a daily driver, and that you have probably yearned for for a long time, knowing its been its in an accident is a real put off unless it is priced well below the market value. Take a look at carclassic.com there is a 348 spider that is advertised at Euro 53,300 with light frontal damage but well repaired. This car has not sold for approximately 4 months. I simply have to ask why? !!!! Deception is deception no matter who is guilty. Having said that, I'm sure we all have been guilty of it at some time or other. Najib | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
|
I'm glad some people like this and the Ferrari vs. NSX (aka S2000) threads. I hope we all just enjoy the threads for what they're worth and don't take anything personally. My brief opinion on this thread is... 1) Bret shouldn't misrepresent the car. If someone asks is it in great condition, then Bret can respond... yes. However, if someone asks if it was in a wreck, well, the fact is it was. 2) I don't think there was anything wrong with Neville bringing this thread up. Users can almost post whatever they want. If something is not true or misrepresented, then it's the responsibility of the other users to clear this up. | ||
| Doug Meredith (Doug308)
|
Unless the car has a salvage title, I think it's up to the buyer to ask the question regarding accidents. If and when he/she does, then the seller should answer honestly. The bidders on ebay are free to email Bret asking any questions before bidding. However, I don't understand his comment regarding using ebay for advertising only. If someone bid $45k , which I assume would meet the reserve, would you try to back out of the deal? I don't think so. | ||
| Martin (Miami348ts)
|
I agree with Bret, First you should contact him and get his side before this is publicised. Second the language should be nicer if you are talking about a fellow chatter. He may be misguided and buy a Corvette now but I truely know that he will be amongst us soon again. third: All of your Ferrari's have had dings and dangs and little touch up here and there. If the car does not have a rebuild title it was no damage to be concerned about except if it was not repaired right. And if that is the case then you should see that and wil not buy the car. I remember a concourse that I was on and next to me was a guy with a 87 Testarossa with only 5K Miles. He was super proud of his car. Never been damaed, never been repainted etc. My detailer was with me at the show and said: "really?", got his paint gauge and sure enought there was a whole area that had been re-painted. No big deal, because you really could not tell. I had the bumper on my TS repainted and will have it repainted next week again. Does that lower the value of my car? Bulls**t! If you ask me I will tell you but I will not sell you the car, the bumper was repaired in 2000 and then in 2001. Bret will sell the car on eBay once the price is reached! People really interested will buy the car by inspecting it anyway. I am in the process of buying a car of eBay. Why not. | ||
| John_Miles (John_Miles)
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In defense of Neville, the private email excerpts below are quoted from the thread in the public Ferrari list that started this whole mess. (I make no assertions as to the veracity of this alleged conversation, or to the identity of the participants.) ---snip--- "It has been repainted .... a dent... It came out perfect. (Prospective buyer responds: Dent? Where? How bad? Any replacement body panels?) "There was a lot of work done to it... Talk to you soon, Bret" followed by: "Hey Bob, It was on the right of the nose, I have no idea how it got there, maybe a rock sent up from a truck or something. It was just a little dent and I know a lot of people in the business so I had it taken out because it was really easy to get at. No big deal, I just figured I'd tell you to keep everything out in the open about the car. It's so nice looking now. Talk to you soon, Bret" ---snip--- Draw your own conclusions about the effect that sellers like this have on the overall Ferrari owners' community. Not documenting the accident in the eBay description was perfectly forgivable and reasonable, in my opinion. I'd have done the same thing, assuming the body work really was performed to the highest professional standards. It is certainly true that unwrecked 308s are about as common as 16-year-old virgins in Bangkok. However, allegedly lying about the car's history ("I have no idea how it got there, maybe a rock sent up from a truck") in response to a direct question from a prospective buyer is not something that we should tolerate. It's a shame to see an intelligent, articulate 18-year-old allegedly start down the path of unethical behavior so early in life. Someone who could have been an asset to the Ferrari community is now not only threatening to leave us forever, but won't be missed in the slightest. That sucks. -- jm | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
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I love these hotly debated subjects. This and the " I just got out of an S2000" have been good threads. | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
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If my car was wrecked and I was selling it, as long as the damage was only comsmetic I would not bring it up. If the prospective buyer asked if the car had been wrecked then I would tell them no problem. | ||
| Christiank (Christiank)
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I have seen the flames on ferrari list too and I think it's going too far. IMHO the car is not wrecked and if it is repaired properly then it's maybe even better than before. Lot's of money invested and all the proper maintenance has been done. I agree with you Neville, but who knows how much truth the guy on Ferrari list is telling us?! | ||
| Randy (Schatten)
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I've seen the flames on ferrarilist, and I would have to agree with Neville on this one even though you have admitted privately to individuals that it had been wrecked - if you don't intend on selling it for a given price on ebay then don't use it for advertising. of course, only 10 hours and counting from the moment, so no use to make Bret pull the sale. and btw, I always flash my lights to oncoming traffic to warn them. =) in hopes they'd do the same, even if I am using the V1. | ||
| Paul Sloan (Sloan83qv)
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I am sure learning who and WHO NOT I would by a car from, this is really sad. | ||
| Neville Pugh (Nev_Pugh)
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Just a hypothetical question Warren, as I'm curious. If you were travelling along a country road and you passed a Police speed trap scanning traffic going in the opposite direction with Radar, would you try and warn the traffic approaching the trap to slow down, or would you do nothing just figuring "it's not any of my business" ? Also, as you're all banging on so self rightously about "doing the right thing if asked", if a couple of people on the ferrarilist.com are to be believed (and I have no proof either way, as I dont know them any more than I know Bret) they alledgedly contacted Bret, interested about the car, and asked Bret straight out if the car had been in an accident and ALLEDGEDLY he said "no". Alledgedly. And whilst we're on the subject (as everyone else seems to want to continue this thread and have a pop at me) why are you advertising it on ebay if you have no intention of selling it on ebay ? Isn't that just a little bit cruel for all the people who are (as far as we are aware) bidding in all honesty against the car, thinking they are in a genuine battle for a genuine sale ? Meekly awaiting huge flames ..... | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
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I think that Lens has put it correctly when he indicates in his response that ultimately it is the buyers responsibility to check out the vehicle buy getting a professional opinion if he can not determine that on his own. Bret knows that the car is repaired correctly because he had it repaired to his satisfaction. Knowing this, why should he hang a sign on it reading "Previously Damaged". When and if the question is put to Bret I think he will know how to handle the situation honestly. If that happened to my car and I knew it was repaired and was a safe vehicle that would not put anyone's life in danger, I would see no reason to advertise the damage. Finally, if I was not going to buy the car I would fiqure it wasn't any of my business. | ||
| Leonardo Soccolich (Lens)
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Its funny, but when I finally decided it was time to seriously start looking for a 308/328, people in Ferrari circles that I had met all told me the same thing�talk to other owners. Join the FCA. That way, you�ll have a good chance of getting information about a particular car and its ownership history. Ultimately though, its the inspection, your knowledge of the car you�re purchasing, and your own gut, that determines whether or not you buy a particular vehicle. I think Brett, that as a seller, you certainly don�t want to jeopardize a potential sale. I think the real issue is what do you say when asked by a prospective buyer who doesn�t frequent this site, �Has this car been hit/repaired/repainted?� I think the answer to that question really transcends the issue we�re all talking about here. I�m not even sure I know what my response would be until faced with that moment. I would like to think that my answer would be as truthful as possible. I caught the broker of my car uttering several �discrepancies.� Buying a Ferrari is like being a detective. The reality is that fifteen-year-old cars, unless hermetically sealed for their entire life, are going to have scratches, chips, etc. Many will be involved in fender-benders and therefore repainted. Its ultimately up to the buyer to �discover� this, and then decide whether that�s acceptable, but if that person asks a question of someone who knows the cars history, then I think its that person�s responsibility to tell the truth. | ||
| Neville Pugh (Nev_Pugh)
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Okay, well and truly flamed. Mistakenly I was under the impression that I was adding to the general Ferrari discussion. I will obviously have to think twice about any postings in the future, in fear of starting arguments. Bret - please accept my sincere and public apologies if I have upset you or caused you problems in any way. | ||
| Peter Boray (Gts308qv)
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"Storm in a Teacup" due to the anal retentivness of a missguided judgemental fool or two. It is up to the prospective buyer to thoughly check out a car and ask the correct questions. Yes, it is "buyer beware", and Bret has advertised his car honestly. If the car has been correctly repaired by a professional it should make no difference to the value. If not, then it should be obvious to who ever inspects it. Regards from "Down-Under" - Peter | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
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I am under the impression that my car has never been wrecked to the best of my knowledge. I am very happy with it. If I found out tommorow that it had been wrecked I feel like if I was happy with it yesterday then I am happy with it today. As long as I can't tell and the mechanic who inspected the car couldn't tell (and he is a very good mechanic)why should I care. | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
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Oh KH, I couldn't help wonder what "HOOK EM" means. You're not a car salesman are you? | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
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KH< In a response to your comment, how do you know he wasn't going to disclose that info. to a potential buyer? Also I feel that if there were any thing wrong on the car I would be able to pick it up before I bought it. That's because I trust my judgement. Also if I couldn't detect any problem with the car mechanically or otherwise and the vehicle had been repaired properly,WHATS THE PROBLEM? If you put it back like it was before what's the difference? So you accept what it is or you don't. But who are you guys to pass judgement on Bret? Are you policeing this kind of thing where someone is trying to defraud the public? If you are not acting in a official capacity, DROP IT. Who knows the cars you are driving may have been totaled before you got them or maybe even after you got them. And I bet when it comes time to sell them, you won't be over anxious to brag about the short comings of your car. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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Thanks Magoo and I know Fred. KH don't jump the gun here, you're talking about a car that makes up one tenth of a percent of the car market. People don't just take Ferraris and send them to your average garage to have them fixed, trust me, because your average garage doesn't want anything to do with a car that is worth that much. You're very naive if you honestly think a used Ferrari hasn't had some sort of body work done to it. I hate to break it to you, but the vast majority of them have. Why do you think Classic Coach (the only authorized Ferrari repair facility) is booked out for six months? What it really boils down to is that it is between the buyer and the seller and no one else. Sooner or later guys like this will learn that it is better to just mind your own business. I have one last thought on this whole thing. When was the last time you saw a car for sale that said well ok it had a wheel replaced in 97, the hood was repainted after someone keyed it in 99, the door got a dent that had to be removed last year, etc in the description. Exactly, you never do. | ||
| KH (H00kem)
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I'm glad there are some on this site looking out for other prospective buyers, thanks Neville....Warren, how would you feel if you bought the car and found out after the fact that is was wrecked and repaired...not well I think? The description on Ebay should indicate that the car was damaged and repaired...damaged and repaired cars sell for less because quite honestly, the are likely worth less given there is a high likelihood that something on the car is not back to factory spec. Honesty is the best policy gents! | ||
| Warren E. Smith (Magoo)
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Bret, I agree with your comments. You guys have nothing to do with the sale of that car and how he does it. The only way you should have any concern is if you want to buy it. It was in poor taste that you brought it up on the chat line and it was obvious that you wanted to create a problem. Back off on things that aren't your business and stick with the normal type of comments that are on the chat line or get off. Magoo | ||
| Frederick Thomas (Fred)
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NEVER again own a Ferrari! Those are strong words Bret. I am suprised to here them from you of all people. | ||
| BretM (Bretm)
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For the record I don't plan on selling the Ferrari on ebay. I set the reserve up quite high to ensure that no one breaks into it, I'm only using it as a means of advertising. If you look carefully I show that it has all records and a clean title which are true. I'm obviously not going to advertise to people what happened. If the are genuinely interested than they'll find out. The guys on Ferrari List are harassing me about this whole thing and I keep on writing them sarcastic emails because to be honest, it's none of their business. The car was repaired correctly in it's entirity and their is no reason why it would be worth less. You guys should understand these things by now, and as far as ethics I'm not trying to hide anything. Would Honda adverstise their cars lack of performance? Then why would my title be 308 with nose damage when going to sell it. I have to admit that because of this whole thing with these assholes, I will never again own a Ferrari. You guys need to get something to do. | ||
| jim galli (Galli)
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Sounds like old bretts name is in MUDSVILLE | ||
| Jerry Wiersma (Tork1966)
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Ever notice that every damn Ferrari on E-Bay is "the best on the road, the king of kings, the one you've been waiting for, showroom new, can be driven anywhere(whatever that means), just put $5,000,000 into restoration, etc. | ||
| Neville Pugh (Nev_Pugh)
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If you go to the Showroom area of ferrarichat.com, there's a thread from April called "308 before (implies eventual after)". A chap called BretM (you still with us, Bret ?) has crashed his 308 into the back of a SUV (bad luck, btw !) Now go to http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=593412183 The same car is up for sale, immaculate, with no mention of the crash damage ! Hope the prospective buyer knows .... | ||
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