| Author | Message | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 61 Registered: 11-2002 |
I think what we see in this thread is one cannot make over-generalizations on the quality of service relative to independent or Factory Authorized. I have my own bias, cashing my paycheck each week from an authorized dealer for nine years. Each business is going to be different, though I strongly believe that the "competent" dealer has a big edge with the direct relationship, many benefits to knowledge and training that an independent could not receive even if they could pay for it. Now, if the authorized dealer chooses not to utilize those benefits to the maximum, that's their decision. That then creates the opportunity for the independent who cares and puts in the extra effort, most with great success. An independent can purchase any special tool including diagnostic equipment from Ferrari, it's pricey. The Dealer pays too, though, never free and frequently MANDATORY to maintain dealer status. Stuff just shows up and the dealer billed without prior notification in some cases (that's got to be tough on cash flow). "Book time": The time schedules according to Ferrari, SpA. are very accurate and in many opinions (tech's), unfavorable or unreasonable. Remember, this is the warranty pay rate to the dealer and technician from the Factory. The system creates a nice check and balance for all. The quoted operation times are very close to straight time. Ferrari does not build in a "time cushion" so the tech and Store can get filthy rich. I agree with your conclusions, take time to find someone competent and then stick with them rather than buy on price for each service visit. This will pay off in the long run. | ||
| TomD (Tifosi)
Intermediate Member Username: Tifosi Post Number: 2144 Registered: 9-2001 |
he prob goes to autosportdesign in ny http://www.autosportdesigns.com/ | ||
| Barney Guzzo (Trinacria)
Junior Member Username: Trinacria Post Number: 62 Registered: 8-2002 |
Joel Belser Would you e-mail me the name of your independent service mechanic? | ||
| Barney Guzzo (Trinacria)
Junior Member Username: Trinacria Post Number: 60 Registered: 8-2002 |
Get recommendations from friends and relatives about good mechanics in your area. Go there and ask questions. Find a mechanic with Ferrari and foreign car experience. There are competent highly trained and skilled mechanics at dealers and independents. There are also lousy, careless mechanics at both. I personally don't think you get any extra value by going to a Ferrari dealer. I use an independent, but he and his mechanics seem to know a lot about Ferrari's - and charge 30% less than the local dealer. Actually, look at any other car you own - is it exclusively serviced by it's manufacturers dealer? Fred makes a great point - learn to do as much as you can yourself - it is very rewarding. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3102 Registered: 12-2000 |
Hey, that sounds good Will, because the only good one I knew of was Eastfield in East Dallas. I live in NE TC, so that won't be too bad. | ||
| William Huber (Solipsist)
Member Username: Solipsist Post Number: 557 Registered: 9-2001 |
Rob, TCCC in north west Ft Worth has a good program for auto body. I don't how far your willing to commute but it maybe worth it. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3100 Registered: 12-2000 |
I took... AUMT 1305 Introduction to Automotive Technology (3 Credit Hours) - The entire semester was just an overview of all automotive systems. About 50% actually out in the shop. This was the toughest for me because I had never even changed my own oil before or used very many tools. I was kinda the class dunce until half way through. Most in the class already had a job doing auto tech before. AUMT 1307 Automotive Electrical Systems (3 Credit Hours) - Great class, especially with how electronic cars are these days. We had an entire electric and computer system out of a new Cadilac and the bundle weighed at least 100 lbs. AUMT 1319 Automotive Engine Repair (3 Credit Hours) - One of my favorite classes, we started out with how to do leak down and compression tests, then we actually rebuilt 3-4 engines throughout the semester. All American I4, I6, and V8. AUMT 1316 Suspension and Steering (3 Credit Hours) - OK class... springs, shocks, steering racks, and alignments. AUMT 2313 Manual Drive Train and Axles (3 Credit Hours) - R&R, rebuilt transmissions, transaxles, and rear ends. Although I never got my personal Mazda trans back together, brought home from class in a box.  I have to build out another race car this spring, but after that I want to find a good auto body and paint school in the area. | ||
| Rijk Rietveld (Rijk365gtb4)
Junior Member Username: Rijk365gtb4 Post Number: 95 Registered: 1-2002 |
Sal(vatore) and Rosario from WWoC work on my car (and sometimes Kevin). They know the most about the older cars and also work on the race cars. I want to stay at WWoC, because I would not like to buy an older Ferrari taken care of by any old independent, so the extra money I spend is an investment in the future and I expect that this adds to the value of the car. Sal is actually very nice, even though after 25 years in the US he barely speaks english. He even drove me back home in Manhattan. | ||
| David C. (Worth_it)
New member Username: Worth_it Post Number: 42 Registered: 10-2002 |
It seems to me that most people are saying that the F-dealer service is not any better than an Indep. and that they are actuallly charging more and having less competent tech's do the work. From a businees model I would summarize that a dealer always has more overhead. In addition a good independent has more to lose since his whole life is invested in his operation. Obviously a lot more to lose if his reputation becomes tarnished. A dealer tech would just move on to a new organization. Some interesting points. Also noticed very few comments supporting the use of the dealer except when absolutely necessary. Pretty interesting stuff. Thanks. Please keep the comments coming. | ||
| Rikky Alessi (Ralessi)
New member Username: Ralessi Post Number: 38 Registered: 5-2002 |
Hey Rob, which classes have you taken so far? Have you learned a lot? Just wondering, seems like it would be a cool thing to do/learn about in the future. | ||
| Rob Lay (Rob328gts)
Board Administrator Username: Rob328gts Post Number: 3097 Registered: 12-2000 |
Here's the Auto Tech Curriculum at Brookhaven College in Dallas. I was in the Comprehensive Automotive Technology program, Ford and GM do their training here and it's the exact same curriculum, except it's make specific and you're actually working at a dealer while you take classes. Most of my classmates were doing this for a career. I just picked the ones I was interested in (Intro, Electrical, Engine Rebuild, Steering & Suspension, and Manual Transmissions). I won't take any more, if I do others it will be body and paint. The point is it looks like what Ford and GM does is more intensive than what Ferrari would do. That would explain why Ferrari says they only hire experienced techs. They don't have the time to train on the basics like Ford or GM. AUMT 1305 Introduction to Automotive Technology (3 Credit Hours) AUMT 1306 Automotive Engine Removal and Installation (3 Credit Hours) AUMT 1319 Automotive Engine Repair (3 Credit Hours) AUMT 1307 Automotive Electrical Systems (3 Credit Hours) AUMT 1310 Automotive Brake Systems (3 Credit Hours) AUMT 1316 Suspension and Steering (3 Credit Hours) AUMT 1345 Automotive Heating and Air Conditioning (3 Credit Hours) AUMT 2313 Manual Drive Train and Axles (3 Credit Hours) AUMT 2311 Automotive Electronic Controls (3 Credit Hours) AUMT 2325 Automatic Transmissions and Transaxles (3 Credit Hours) AUMT 2332 Automatic Transmissions and Transaxles II (3 Credit Hours) AUMT 2317 Engine Performance Analysis I (3 Credit Hours) AUMT 2334 Engine Performance Analysis II (3 Credit Hours) AUMT 2375 Powertrain Diagnostics (3 Credit Hours) AUMT 2380/2381 Cooperative Work Experience (3/3 Credit Hours) MATH 1314 or 1414 College Algebra (3 or 4 Credit Hours) ENGL 1301 Composition I (3 Credit Hours) SPCH 1311 Introduction to Speech Communication (3 Credit Hours) PSYC 2302 Applied Psychology (3 Credit Hours) HUMA 1301 Introduction To The Humanities (3 Credit Hours) The classes were a blast, that's where I met Greg Scott 2 years ago, a '88 TR owner. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 276 Registered: 10-2002 |
The guy's from WWOC that work on my cars go to the Ferrari Factory for training. When they became a Maserati dealer they went to that factory as well. Sal was willing to go to the Deusenberg Factory but as it's been closed for quite some time he had to figure that one out on his own. Happily the owners manual they supplied when they sold the car to Queen Marie of Yougoslavia is quite extensive. Best Jim | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 510 Registered: 11-2002 |
Forgot to mention....at most dealers the tech doesn't even get the NJ weekend "school" until they've worked there at least a year. | ||
| DES (Sickspeed)
Member Username: Sickspeed Post Number: 718 Registered: 8-2002 |
Dissertations.  | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 509 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>>Here is something to be concerned about. He tells me there are NO factory trained mechanics. There is no "offical" school that trains Ferari mechanics. He also said ferrari mechanics earns less than Porsche, MB, Jag, BMW etc.<<< All absolutely true!!! Factory Trained consists of a weekend in NJ...watching another Ferrari employee point at a Chalk Board and give fast disertations then handing out notebooks and Diplomas...same applies for many manufacturers...thought everybody knew "factory trained" was hype! | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 508 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>with 348's (and newer)Fcar dealers do have equipment and diagnostic tools independents can't get, so for any electronic problems,<< Not exactly the case... Shops like mine have all the Modern Diagnostic Tools & Equip to diagnois almost any concievable FI or Electronic, or OBD II problem. All modern cars have modern systems and can readily be diagnoised and repaired by any that have kept pace with the changes. Once cars come out of warranty most update their equipment and tools to deal with the work load. True most don't equip for cars still under warranty. | ||
| J.D. Smythe (Jeff)
Junior Member Username: Jeff Post Number: 105 Registered: 2-2001 |
Ok, here's a good one. I was talking to a Ferrari service manager and he was complaining that the "book" times from Ferrari are all under estimated. He is LOSING money because he charges by the "book" rate. Here is something to be concerned about. He tells me there are NO factory trained mechanics. There is no "offical" school that trains Ferari mechanics. He also said ferrari mechanics earns less than Porsche, MB, Jag, BMW etc. | ||
| Joel Belser (Driver)
New member Username: Driver Post Number: 25 Registered: 9-2002 |
I use an independent service shop whose owner races a Ferrari, in fact the same model I have. They have a restoration department and do quality work. I pay for time spent on the car, not from a flat rate manual. I can pull in any time for minor issues, which I don't think you can do with a dealer. That said, I wouldn't make a blanket statement about the relative merits of either dealer or independent. You have to establish a relationship with either, that you are comfortable with. One in which you have confidence in the quality of the work and the feeling that you are getting what you pay for. I would imagine that where you live has a lot to do with how much choice you have. | ||
| Horsefly (Arlie)
Member Username: Arlie Post Number: 545 Registered: 5-2002 |
David, I think you hit the nail on the head. You also have noted the constant paradox. Everybody wants the expensive Ferrari, but then everybody balks at the cost of timing belt replacement, 30K service, $250 oil changes, etc. How come nobody balks at the expensive, overpriced, 20 years old Ferrari hulk in the first place? If one is supposed to worship and embrace the overpriced $40,000 car that is 20 years old, why not worship and embrace the overpriced repair parts as well? Don't overpriced repair parts help keep out the riff-raff just like the expensive car itself? As somebody else said, you gotta pay to play. (However, I admit that I'm a bargain hunter, and I wouldn't pay those expensive repair bills either. That's assuming that I ever find that bargain Ferrari in the barn.) | ||
| Dave328GTB (Hardtop)
Member Username: Hardtop Post Number: 377 Registered: 1-2002 |
David, After a brief stint with an Fcar dealer service, I went to an independent. I have since sold 5 Fcars with most service done by an independent and I never had a potential buyer express any concern. However, with 348's (and newer)Fcar dealers do have equipment and diagnostic tools independents can't get, so for any electronic problems, you are pretty much stuck with a dealer. An independent can do some part switching from bank to bank to find problems but that can be time consuming and not yield results anyway. My mechanic does do major service on 348's, but if the check engine light comes on or a bank goes down, they send them to the Fdealer. Dave | ||
| David White (Dwhite)
Junior Member Username: Dwhite Post Number: 86 Registered: 7-2002 |
There is one bit of irony to all these threads about who does your work on your car. If all the owners who preach about Ferrari supported the marque, maybe the services/parts would be less - probably not. I just get a kick out of all the endless BS about the cars, costs, ect and then no one supports the company. I am guilty of this practice on some things. | ||
| Jim E (Jimpo1)
Intermediate Member Username: Jimpo1 Post Number: 1098 Registered: 7-2001 |
I wouldn't pay more for a car that had been fixed by a dealership, but I might pay less if it had been serviced by Joe Blow's Independant Imports or the previous owner. There are pleny of reputable independants that we all know, including the one I use. If they specialize in exotics and are known around the Ferrari world, I don't see that it makes a difference. | ||
| Fred (I Luv 4REs) (Iluv4res)
Member Username: Iluv4res Post Number: 286 Registered: 8-2002 |
Interesting question: Since I am FED UP with automobile service shops (Dealer & Independent) for all makes/models of cars, here's my 2 cents: Everyone charges you according to a book that tells them the estimated time involved in a repair. If they do the job in less time, they win. Therefore, all service shops race through your repair as quickly as possible to maximize their profits. Unfortunately, the true price to pay is when the customer gets the car back with shoddy workmanship. The repair shop mentality is: if something breaks or isn't right from their work, they will either address it later or blame it on something else and/or you. Most of the time, the actual people repairing your car couldn't care less about you, your car, or your hard-earned money. My advise: Learn to fix as much as you possibly can. Educate yourself so you can minimize the bleeding from your a*s when you bring it in for service. Finding a good mechanic who is honest, caring and well respected is worth it's weight in gold while YOU own the car!! Screw resale, dealer books, etc... Your limited by your geographic area somewhat. Therefore, if the BEST person for the job is independent, use them. If the BEST person for the job is the dealer, use them. | ||
| david handa (Davehanda)
Member Username: Davehanda Post Number: 422 Registered: 5-2001 |
I think there is a good case for going to both; but with the newer cars like the 348/512TR on up, and especially the 355/456/550 on up (OBDII), you really need the diagnostics that the dealer has to trace/find many drivability problems. Standard maintanence can be handled by the independant, no problem. I think JRV's first statement hit the ball on the head... I know of no dealer (of any marque) that books by actual time versus book time. I have friends who are talented mechanics that can regularly bill 10-14 hours in a 8 hour day at the dealerships they work...I asked a friend at the State Attorney General's office if this is legal, they said as long as the manufacture says it takes that long to fix, the dealer is covered. | ||
| David C. (Worth_it)
New member Username: Worth_it Post Number: 41 Registered: 10-2002 |
Any other F car owner have an opinion on this ?? Trying to get some input. Thanks. | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 507 Registered: 11-2002 |
Well I forgot to add...you 'wll not' get 50% more for your Ferrari even after paying 50% more for parts and service at a Dealer. You need to think about a Dealers real Mission Statement then decide what works best for you. But for the "boning", like a local Dealer X salesman liked to say 'you'll be part of the family'. | ||
| David C. (Worth_it)
New member Username: Worth_it Post Number: 40 Registered: 10-2002 |
Does anyone have any opinions / experiences to add to this?? Is there any real value to using the "authorized" dealer over a qualified indep.?? Or is it just perception being sold by the dealer ?? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 500 Registered: 11-2002 |
>>Does the dealer stamp really bring anything additional to the table ??<< To some it would sure. Generally, new and/or unknowledgeable (about Ferraris) buyers have considerable fear (created and perpetuated by dealers) about buying any Used Exotic that doesn't have a Safety Net (warranty) so they can achieve a False Sense of Security by attaching significance to the word "Authorized". To most others they want the best service not the safest hype. | ||
| David C. (Worth_it)
New member Username: Worth_it Post Number: 39 Registered: 10-2002 |
JRV - In my case I have equal opinions on both the dealer and Indep. - Am I really going to get anything more for my money by using the dealer or indep. - I am talking about today and in perceived value in re-sale. Does the dealer stamp really bring anything additional to the table ?? | ||
| JRV (Jrvall)
Member Username: Jrvall Post Number: 497 Registered: 11-2002 |
The best place is somewhere you like, feel comfortable at, and trust. And delivers the quality and conscientiousness you want and expect at a price you're willing to pay. | ||
| David C. (Worth_it)
New member Username: Worth_it Post Number: 37 Registered: 10-2002 |
Having viewed the Ranting thread on prices and then the thread on $225 /hr labor has started me thinking... What is the best place to have your service work performed ?? A F-Dealer or a "qualified" independent ?? ( I define a "qualified" as having the same abilities, knowledge, etc.. as the dealer ) Will choosing an independent have a negative effect in re-sale ?? What is the buyer's perception ?? Is a dealer serviced car a better car ?? Are we just buying an insurance policy against lower re-sale when we use the dealer ?? We all despise being billed "book" hours instead of actual labor hours - Does anyone know an F mechanic who does NOT use book labor hours ?? The perfect world would have a F dealer bill actual time by their factory trained tech's. Like this will happen. I recently had a F-Club board member tell me to ONLY use a dealer because they have access to more information and they are worth more then an independent. Do you agree ?? I am a new 348 Spider owner. I have not decided on where to have my car serviced going forward. Previous owner used dealer only. Curious to all your thoughts since I have both a dealer and Indep. in my area. |