| Author | Message | ||
| Justin Randall Kenyon (Kenyon)
Junior Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 65 Registered: 10-2002 |
Gents, I had a 430 Maserati with 405 BHP. The car is 250 BHP standard. Its just done 135,000 miles and been through its 15th trackday in three years. No problems what so ever with car. The body is a problem. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 385 Registered: 5-2002 |
Yes you can easily add a blow off valve(s), that will keep the turbos spooled between gear changes. I sounds like you engine has very low CR, do you know what it is?. The solution to the idle is a little more painful. You need to add a by-pass air valve or solenoid. The solenoid is a bit primitive, but it will work and car be wired to open when the a/c compressor engages. To run a valve, you would need a new ECU, but that would also let you use an electric controlled wastegate which can smooth the transition to boost a little. | ||
| William Heung (William_heung)
New member Username: William_heung Post Number: 6 Registered: 7-2002 |
Thanks Luke and Mark for the replies. The Modified Alfa has the "Blow off Valve Setup" and its nice to hear it purge each time I change gear. The Maserati does not have this setup. It has knock sensor and has a electronic control box. Both the Cars was suppose to have 0.5 -0.6 Bar. The Maserati does have a factory turbo gauge and it does get up to 3/4 of the max gauge reading during hard acceration but the driving off sucks. Can the Maserati be converted to the "Blow off" Type system? The Maserati has no Cats and have free flow Exhaust from each bank. The Torgue and power at low end is poor. ie. when I engaged the air-con the RPM drops by 300. When I engaged to Drive, it Drops 400-500 RPM so the Car has to be idleing at 1200 rpm. This is bad when I engaged into reverse as it a be bad "clank" Kind Regards William | ||
| Luke Wells (Coolhandluke)
New member Username: Coolhandluke Post Number: 14 Registered: 1-2003 |
"sorry to hear that" -Yeah, that sounds terrible. THis place is spotless. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 130 Registered: 11-2002 |
Troy, Michigan. Part of Metro Detroit. Troilet? Sorry to hear about that  | ||
| Tim N (Timn88)
Intermediate Member Username: Timn88 Post Number: 1991 Registered: 6-2001 |
Luke, is that troy the one in NY? the one we ij schenectady refer to as the troilet? | ||
| Luke Wells (Coolhandluke)
New member Username: Coolhandluke Post Number: 13 Registered: 1-2003 |
Mark, excellent point, I know that Bosch re-circ valves are particularly crap. A poor seal, or torn diaphragm in a BOV what result in more lagg, especially between shifts. I couldn't imagine the factory using a gearbox that would have such tall gears that the motor would drop out of boost......but then again, Porsche did it with the 930 up until 89 when the 5 speed was introduced. I understand the 4 speeds are very hard to drive smooth. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 371 Registered: 5-2002 |
FSAE is a great way to learn about racing, and to build things that work. I co-captained the team at Union College, there were only 5 of us, 2 of which really only gave it a half hearted effort, but I think we build a good car. I now we all had a lot of fun autocrossing it after the competition. We actually built 2, but the first was destroyed in a testing accident so we had to build another. They haven�t managed another car since I left, but here are some pics of the one I worked on�they took down all the pics that show it completely assembled though, very strange. http://engineering.union.edu/me_dept/students/formula.01/home.htm William, does your car have a (n) blow-off valve(s), if not you should add one(2). I don�t know what else to suggest. How much boost does it run (psi)? | ||
| Luke Wells (Coolhandluke)
New member Username: Coolhandluke Post Number: 11 Registered: 1-2003 |
"I did learn how to build almost anything working in the shop, that's worth something I guess." - Most Deffinately! I'm sure that my real world expirience (as limited as it is) is what gives me the edge at all the job fairs I've been to and all the interviews I've had. From what I've observed in life so far, Knowledge is 30% from what you've done, 10% from what you've read, and unfortunately, 60% who you know. perticularly my Foundry expirience. You wouldn't beleive how much that has helped me out. I'm currently enrolled at Kettering University (Formerly GMI). I have 16 credit hr.s in. It's a Co op school and I'm on my work term. (still looking for a job) But I beleive I found a job. I had a great interview with zf Sachs automotive (powertrain division) of Troy/Southfeild, just yesterday. If I recieve an offer I would have to transfer to LTU though (Lawrence tech). from what it sounds, LTU is the better school. I went into Kettering very interested in their Formula SAE team, only to be VERY disappointed with how it was run ( 1/2 assed  ) From what I understand LTU's team always blows our's out of the water. Hopefully if things work out with zf sachs, in 7 or 10 years I'll be on the race engineering group over in Germany. That would deffinatley be a dream job for me. Mr. Heung, Although those tall gears on the 3 speed are severly happering performance like you sad, you may have a weak wastegate issue or possibly a pair of fatigued turbos. Do you have a boost gauge, and factory specs? Or possibly the motor is tired . Some causes of excessive lagg are bad bearings, weak wastegate springs, clogged catylic converter, damaged or leaking vacuum lines....... I personally would start with the wastegates though. | ||
| William Heung (William_heung)
New member Username: William_heung Post Number: 5 Registered: 7-2002 |
Clap! Clap! Clap!. I'm impressed with the knowledge of Turbos and power with this group. I personally learned vastly from this communication. I would not be able to contribute the "Know how" on this subject but being the owner of 2 Turboed Italian cars, I would like to seek the opiniun of the "well learned" I owned a 1996 2.0lts Alfa Spider which I sent it to Novitec to be singleturbo charge last year. It cost about USD4200. It dyno at 210 Hp compared to previously 140 Hp. It has some teething problem and obviously turbo lag but being a Manual transmission, turbo lag was not a problem and it put a big smile on my face each time I took it for a drive. The other Car is a 1990 Maserati Biturbo 2.0 ltr with a 3 speed Auto. This V-6 Engine has twin turbos and intercoolers. It was rated to be 220Hp but I have yet to dyno it. Being Auto, the lag is so promenant, I have to pick the timing to come out of an interchange. The power comes on at 3000 rpm but I do not feel the push as I felt on the Alfa even though it suppose to have less power and more turbo lag. Mabye I' did not consider the 5 years different in Technology as the redline of the Alfa is 7K and the Marserati is 5.2K. How do I make the Maserati more driveable? Best Regards........ William | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 370 Registered: 5-2002 |
Luke, What school are you going to? I worked as a machinist during the day and got my ME degree at night. The ferrari was my graduation present to myself. I wish I had had the sences to go to school when my father offered to send me instead of doing the life-time plan and working my way though. I did learn how to build almost anything working in the shop, that's worth something I guess. | ||
| Luke Wells (Coolhandluke)
New member Username: Coolhandluke Post Number: 10 Registered: 1-2003 |
" Big basic differences in falling masses where mass is not part of the amount of time an object takes to fall, and inertial rotating mass, where mass is important." I understand that, I was just over simplifying Anyway I just realized that most of you guys have 2 intake plenums, so if you were referring to that as the plumbing issue... My apologizes Thank you everybody for being polite, I really enjoy this discussion and I hope I have many more with you. As a 19yr old ME student I know that I have MUCH to learn, hope you guys can help further my education. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 129 Registered: 11-2002 |
K=1/2 Iw2 I is for moment of inertia, my bad. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 128 Registered: 11-2002 |
Luke, this is from my heart, this is not mean spirited: Pick up a physics book. Big basic differences in falling masses where mass is not part of the amount of time an object takes to fall, and inertial rotating mass, where mass is important. One is motion due to constant acceleration (falling), one is kinetic energy of a rotating mass. The first is just (g) = 32.2 ft/s2, the last is K=1/2mw2. Yes, I know Larry Parker, email me when you have time and we'll do a Kevin Bacon. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 369 Registered: 5-2002 |
Luke, You posted more while I was writing. If you are concerned about the top 50% of the rpm band only, I agree you will never feel a diference between a single or twin. Below 1/3 of your rpm , I'm pretty sure you will. Between 1/3 to 1/2 the diference disappears. I guess it just depends on how you drive if you will ever see the advantages of the twin set-up. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 368 Registered: 5-2002 |
Luke, Again I'm sorry to take exception, although it is partly true. When there is pressure, like when your rolling on the throttle exiting a turn, the pressure is the main factor in spooling the compressor. But at that point the compressor is already mostly spooled always, that�s what makes a single turbo the idle choice for the track. On the street, leaving a light or a turn, the engine is at vacuum in the intakes and well below the flow required by the turbine to operate. At this point there is no back pressure to speak. When the throttle is opened, there still isn�t any pressure the turbine sits there and waits for the engine to build rpm so it can pump the air the turbine needs to start. This is the time when the twin set-up shines, since I= (mr^2)/4+(mL)^2/12, and Ke=1/2Iw^2 the r^2 term means that 2 small turbines store much less energy the a single large one, so much more of the available pressure energy go to increasing the turbines rpm. So it makes boost sooner and dramatically improves the street driving experience, compared to a single large turbine. Personally, I wouldn�t have one (or 2) on a street car. I think a positive displacement supercharger is really the way to go. You get all the benefits with none of the draw backs, boost across the board with instant response at any rpm. As flat a torque curve as the engine had to begin with. At the roadrace track, it�s all about turbos, but not on the street. | ||
| Luke Wells (Coolhandluke)
New member Username: Coolhandluke Post Number: 8 Registered: 1-2003 |
Mr. Shermerhorn, The situations I'm familular with the involve floating valves are with the owners of NA 350's, that have restrictive intake tracts and decide that it would sound cool to run open headers. This is the extent of my knowledge on the situation. My knowledge of fabricting forced induction systems is almost as small, most of it is theory. (very little real world expirience, especially on 2 bank motors) And I also agree that symetry is beautiful, and twin turbo setups have always looked very attractive. But one thing that I do know is that rotor weight is peanuts next to the forces exhuast gases expell on a turbine. An 100kg sphere falls to the earth just as fast as 1kg sphere of equal size, because the mass of both is insignificant next to that of the earth's. For the same reason ( not to the same magnitude though) both turbines will spool nearly as fast. And with space restraints, of course plumbing can get difficult, but I've seen it done many times. " road race track will be off boost regularly, so off-boost response is important" yes, "off-boost" but rarely under 3000rpms (that's probably 25mph in 1st gear) If the motor moves to vaccuum by letting off the throttle, then the boost threshold is the amount of time it takes to move back to positive pressure. The boost threshold is fractions of a second and is nearly identical between a twin and single turbo setup. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 127 Registered: 11-2002 |
Luke, I think you're taking a statement about one characteristic and applying it too generally. Like Mark stated, it's all about area under the torque curve in usable rpm ranges. And a driver on the street (remember, this is street/track, 348, not theoretical) and road race track will be off boost regularly, so off-boost response is important. One has to work with the physical laws of nature. I like your thinking though. You're spending allot of time with a subject we all love dearly, more power. That's all good. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 126 Registered: 11-2002 |
Luke, thanks for your input and opinion on turbo system design. I do have experience with this subject, but am certainly not an expert, but I do know how to dial a phone and ask good questions, so this is what I've been led to believe, and it makes sense to me FWIW. In the specific case parameters I outlined previously, 80% / 20% by mileage, street and track respectively, 348 application, the twin (and I've been trained by ruler whacks across the knuckles not to fall in love with a particular design because I believe in my heart without the data to back it up) turbo install will be better for response, and probably more torque usable at a lower threshold, while sacrificing a bit of top end. But the calculated sacrifice is a bigger benefit for this type of application, more area under the torque curve; we're not going to Bonneville. Plus, isn't there a plumbing trade off as well? If you must build pretzels to hook up with a single turbo, that's time and money. Let's talk about this specific installation, you did mention V8 favored twin turbo partly for plumbing issues? As for backpressure, isn't this really a non-issue as long as one utilizes the maps, runs the numbers, and chooses the proper turbo for the specific installation? This is a wash assuming one does their homework. A Norwood installation only uses the cats for mufflers, it's about as good as it gets for backpressure. This is a street installation. When engineering a system, don't we need to take all parameters involved into the equation? This includes the cost to fabricate, labor and materials, vs. the ultimate useful power increase. We cannot ignore a factor because it unbalances the desired equation result. Okay, here's my opinion: I think you're missing this due to physical installation issues (complexity costs cash), and inertial issues of two small wheels vs. one larger, flows being as equal as possible (remember the installation knowns). Again, this is my experience until now, and I've been wrong more than once. This I'm having difficulty swallowing. What are your reasons? I've run open exhaust, allot. So do racers every weekend across the globe. It's my understanding that it's desirable to have supersonic exhaust velocities for best scavenging. Open (no collector, only primaries?) will sacrifice torque, but not float valves. Valve float is a function of camshaft geometry and spring material and design properties, not backpressure. What am I missing? | ||
| Luke Wells (Coolhandluke)
New member Username: Coolhandluke Post Number: 7 Registered: 1-2003 |
the size of a compressor wheel has much less effect on spool up than back pressure. A 2.5ltr. 8v motor can spool up a to4e 54trim just as fast as a k26/8 even though the to4e is more than twice the size at the compressor wheel. This is knowledge i have gained through, both personal hands on expirience with my own car and thoery from books such as Maximum Boost. Which Mr. Bell comes right out and says, "compressor size has very little to do with spool up or boost threshold" (I am paraphrasing but I will look up the exact quote) "but the rotor is bigger with much more inertia so it builds rpm much slower than 2 small turbo that pump the same amount of air" So this is incorrect, although it is the most common response...... The reason why 2 small turbos WILL spool quicker than one larger turbo is that the A/R ratio's of the 2 are just that..... smaller and because of the smaller a/r ratio they will not be able to make as much top end power. A kkk #6 hotside will spool about 200rpm sooner than a #8 on a 2.5 8V motor, but the #8 will make 25 more ponies in the top end. this is another reason why twin setups are weaker performers on track..... At the track you will only be under 3000rpms' at the initial launch. You will keep your rev's up through out the track unless you've made some error. You will ALWAYS be on boost then, there is no spool up, only boost threshold, but the treshold between a twin and single setup will be identical. Im not saying the mass of the wheel's are meaningless, but they are insignigicant compared to a/r ratios. People use ceramic wheels, but they are fragile and for dedicated track cars with watercooled turbos ;) "already agreeing to give up a flat torque curve in exchange for more HP" this statement is also incorrect... Turbo's make torque, and torque is what moves your car ;) Horse dictates top speed. The purpose of turbocharging is to make torque. "That means paying extra for good bearing that allow higher turbine speed" this statement is also incorrect. You will NEVER spin a turbo as fast as it can go. You need to control how much boost you are making because in order to regulate a solid a/f ratio one must regulate air flow....... this is why we use wastegates. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 367 Registered: 5-2002 |
Luke, I'm sorry, but I will have to take exception to basically everything in your last post. I think you may have been baited a little though. The twin vs single decision has almost nothing to do with any of the points you list, I�ll just let them lay. The main factor is what part of the rpm band and throttle are you using how much of the time. A single big turbo is lighter and simpler, but the rotor is bigger with much more inertia so it builds rpm much slower than 2 small turbo that pump the same amount of air. What that means is that if you are building a race car so you will always be in the top 50% for the RPM band and only have the throttle class when you on the brakes coming into a turn, or a relatively low boost street car so you have a small turbo anyway, or have budget concerns, a single turbo is for you. If you are building a larger displacement street car, or any high boost street car you probably want a twin turbo set-up because it will get spooled up and making boost much quicker. You always want the turbo(s) with the smallest, light turbines you can stand, they just respond better. That means paying extra for good bearing that allow higher turbine speeds and paying extra for better turbines. The dyno #s on a car running say 20 psi with one big cheap turbo or 2 tiny expensive turbos will probably be the same, but on the street, the twin set-up will be an order of magnitude friendlier to drive. Back to the 35k, I think it comes down to expectation. When someone decides to take one the worlds best sports cars and modify it, they expect it to get better. The reality is that is much easier to make it worst than it is to make it better. Making the peak HP go up is not that hard, making the car better to drive is very hard. When you decide turbo, you�re already agreeing to give up a flat torque curve in exchange for more HP. So you�re giving away drivability. When you decide single turbo, you�re also agreeing to give up a little more drivability. If you don�t correct the suspension to handle the increased power, you loose a little more. Don�t do the brakes to handle the extra speed?, a little more is gone. Most owners are not willing to make those sacrifices. They do the whole job and do it right or they don�t do it at all. | ||
| Luke Wells (Coolhandluke)
New member Username: Coolhandluke Post Number: 6 Registered: 1-2003 |
Well again Mr. Schermerhorn, a motor is a motor. And power is simply how much air you can move and where in the rev range that air is being moved at. Turbo's make backpressure, backpressure is the slowing down of air flow, and heat will result. This is why different mufflers and restrictors are usually involved in a turbo charged setup. You dont want that back pressure. Now, you do need back pressure, you dont want valves to float, this is why natrually aspirated motors cannot simply run open headers. But the Hot side of a turbo, with ANY Area/Radius ratio will make more than enough backpressure. It is MUCH more sipmle to make a twin turbo setup if you have 2 exhaust manifolds (6,8,12 cyl motors "two banks" ) which is why I dont understand that somebody can invest $35k and still get a simple twin turbo setup. When selecting turbos you must know how must air you wish to flow and which compressor would be most efficient in the range you want..... You can visit almost any manufacturer and get a list of "flow maps" for almost any compressor wheel. Here is one for example. ( http://www.majesticturbo.com/compression.html ) say you would like to two " X " amount of air, and since a twin setup would be easier, you need two turbos that would flow " X/2 " of air. As a result, the compressor sides of the turbo's and the hotsides will be significantly smaller, creating much more back pressure than one larger single turbo. Less backpressure equals more power. Now, let's look at not "how much air you want to flow" but, "how much air/exhaust" you currently flow.......... Your engine pulses supply the trubine with the kinetic energy necesary to get the compressor wheel spinning. As a whole, your motor flows X CFM, but, with a twin setup you only supply each turbine with what comes out of ONE bank of cylinders ( X/2 ). This is another reason you will have to run a smaller Area/radius ratio hotide - and again more backpressure. But with two crossover pipes, or how ever you would like to work the setup, you can have TWO banks supplying one turbo with a much larger A/R ratio. The result is much more top end power ( The same amount of air flow as a twin setup ) and less backpressure. With less backpressure, there is significantly less of a chance of turbo coking due to the fact that there is both less heat soak AND less heat generated. This is EXTREMELY important for track cars. There are more than 20 other benifits of a single turbo setup, such as reduced blow by from turbo seals, and less piping/oil/water lines, but it doesn't have the "glamour" that most people find in the word twin for some reason. Another issue that falls into these lines is Ball bearing turbos. A 360 degree thrust bearing will perform almost IDENTICAL to a BB turbo. The only benifit to a BB turbo is on the track when powering out of a corner 13+ times a lap ( you might see positive pressure 50-90 rpm's sooner ) But in the long run Ball Bearings are MUCH more expensive to rebuild. And get this.... THere is only "one" true BB turbo, the "GT25" All other's use 1 Ball bearing at the shaft. The other side is a 360 thrust bearing ;) Throttle response is a characteristic that depends on good tuning and boost threshold. Turbo's make torque and the more efficient you are with a comp. wheel/ a/r setup and air flow, the more torque you will make. As for chevy V8's, they are just another air pump. But they mostly see the strip which would bring us into a SC/turbo war. Even though the turbo is 11% more efficient than the SC, they are not best in all applications. But if you have a 350 in an Ultima.... could i have some pictures Rob, do I know you? I think I was just talking to Larry Parker about you. I too, like to learn, please correct anything you might disagree with... | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 124 Registered: 11-2002 |
Luke, this is the technical section and I'm always wanting to learn. Can you expand on your reasons for single over twin? Street driving with some track events thrown in, say 20% of miles will be track. What are the advantages? It sounds like you're saying torque and throttle response is improved? Is you opinion the same for say 5.7 liter American V8, too? | ||
| Luke Wells (Coolhandluke)
New member Username: Coolhandluke Post Number: 5 Registered: 1-2003 |
You may call piggybacking and ecu fab's a hack job, but If it looks stock and your a/f ratio is nailed down to a solid 12.5:1 at EVERY SINGLE 100 rpm interval I wouldn't think one would complain. And yes Mr. Mike B. its' very hard to do, but it's also very possible and well worth the time for two reasons, you need to "tune" anyway and you get to spend that ten thousand dollars elsewhere. And yes, headers for $300. BIlly Bob, Your stock ecu isn't "cheap" either ;). and It would have no trouble doing the job. It's once the ignition curve starts to bend away and you can no longer make your duty cycles work for you that you need one of those "expensive" ecu's. and "cheap" turbo's- I threw out a high number. You could have a T3 super 60 trim VSR balanced NEW! AND a 36mm delta gate wg for around $500. A motor is a motor...... That power plant behind your back is there to "move air". Sure not all engines sound like an Fcar motor, and none other make similar power characteristics , BUT do you really think that your car will perform less if you ran an external water pump from say a "Volvo"? And lastly, I apologize, I've misrepresented myself here. I am by no means here to solicit any service. I am a big F car fan, with alot passion and less money than you guys. Although I have access to a nice clean shop and a great dyno, I would never take money from one of you fine gentleman. Instead I wanted to possibly you show how to save it, for the more important stuff (suspension ) I would hate to get all philosophical on you, but there are two types of people that convert to forced induction. There's the type that wants "twin turbo's" -instantly giving himself away with an unfortunate lack of knowledge. And the type that is looking for torque,power, and fun. I think the type I identify with most becomes less aparent when we have money to work with. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 364 Registered: 5-2002 |
I forgot, just a gasket set for a Ferrari engine is over $1000. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 363 Registered: 5-2002 |
luke, I think we're talking about whole different systems. You mention 60-70 HP, I'm talking about adding 200-400 and keeping the car safey, street worthy and reliable. If you take a quick look at my profile pic and link, you'll see I have done this type of work. I'm just telling you what a good good costs. My ECU is a haltech, they cost $1500 with sensors, my injectors cost $500, $2000 for a blower, $1200 for the inter-cooler, water pump and heat exchanger $300, $500 for pulleys and belts, $150 fuel regulator, $300 in hose and fittings, $1000 for pistons, clutch $600, $500 for a bigger radiator, $2500 for brembo brake rotors and custon hats, (The cheapest I've for the brembo calipers is $800 ea, so $3200 Ihaven't spent yet), Ohlins STJ custom valved adjustable shocks $2400, Tibach springs $240, Used wheels wide enough to handle the power $1000 ($2800 each new at the dealer), tires to fit $1000. 100s or hours or labor. I shopped around for everything, I just don't see how you can do a good for much less. I'm sure you could do something for less, but I don't thing it would come close in across the board performance and you wouldn't have the reliability or drivability. | ||
| Mike B (Srt_mike)
New member Username: Srt_mike Post Number: 31 Registered: 12-2002 |
Luke, I have to take HUGE issue with what you're saying here. I've done several turbo jobs. First of all, just bumping up pulse width and fuel pressure on stock injectors and using a MAP sensor mod is a major hack and nothing more. You're just guessing at the correct settings and it's very hard to get the A/F ratio correct through the WHOLE RPM range. And if you DO get it, good luck making it stay correct in different weather and altitude conditions - it just won't happen. Custom headers for $300 each? It would take a good fabricator a solid 30-40 hours to make a pair - at $20 an hour if you're in a cheap area. That's $600-800 not including material. Enough 321 is going to cost a few hunded at LEAST. Even if you're using a jig, it's still gonna cost WAY more than $300 for a pair of turbo headers. What about BOV's, and the oil lines and intake tubing? And $500 for a turbo is probably the cheapest turbo you can get next to used. Why would anyone cheap out on a turbo for an $80k car? My Corvette had the following: -321 Stainless headers $2,500 -Turbos $1,200/ea for Precision Turbo models -BOV's $300 -Intercooler $1,000 -Oil lines $200 -Air plumbing $200 You're up to $6,600 without including ANY engine management or ANY labor. Luke, with all due respect I know you think people are gonna bite on price, but they won't. Who wants a $3k turbo for their $85k car? And at $3k a pop, how much are you making on those? A few hundred? And if something goes wrong can you support it with that markup? If you can, you'll make millions... but hundreds of others have tried and lost their bottom dollar trying to do a cheap turbo for an expensive car. How many can you sell a year? Maybe 3? Compare that to a turbo mustang kit selling 500 units a year. | ||
| Jim Conforti (Lndshrk)
New member Username: Lndshrk Post Number: 35 Registered: 8-2002 |
For the 348, you need some sort of box to convert your hot wire sensors to Speed-Density. Actually a pair of the boxes. MAP, Throttle Pos, and RPM are thrown thru a Ve map to give a MAF like output. From there 2 customs chips and 8 Injectors will fully complete the "fuel system". The only other "add" may be a fuel pump with greater volume. (If you're real cool, you rewrite the DME code to skip the external boxen and handle the MAP intrinsicly) The speed density system is needed because: 1) Hot WIRE (as opposed to hot FILM) MAF's can't handle warm air too well (empirically) 2) It's very hard to find larger Hot wire MAF's 3) Hot film mafs aren't compatible w/o headaches The injectors will be "standard Bosch". 0 280 150 731, EV1.3A style also used on PBug 911. Coil is common 15.9 Ohm resistance, Flows 249.12 cc/min of N-Heptane at 3.8bar. Regulator flows 40l/hr at 3.8 bar (We're talking the later 348's BTW) Run the turbos cross-side.. better for balance. There's some free product engineering ;) The entire fuel system can be done for under $1k in cost if the chip development is amortized over say 100 kits or so. Jim C. | ||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 146 Registered: 8-2002 |
Luke is right if you are building sentras with off the shelf parts O plenty. Everything for a Ferrari is custom and odd sized. Hell I payed Earls 200 bucks just to get the custom hoses to splice in two fuel guagues to the fuel rails. Believe me Cheap is cheap. If you want cheap lets pump nitrous. If you want to do forced induction right you have to evaluate many parameters. Those cheapo ECU's that claim to do everything on wide band o2 sensors are like wearing a maxim size rubber... one size fits all right? Race teams spend days testing to match power with conditions then work on suspension for conditions. You are not going to out do Ferraris tuning compromises with a 1000 buck ECU. You need to start with dyno time and lots of it. That ain't cheap. Anyone who is road tuning is fooling himself. | ||
| Luke Wells (Coolhandluke)
New member Username: Coolhandluke Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2003 |
Mr. Eberhardt, Thank you for the polite response, but I must disagree. I could nail your a/f ratio down with many great ecu's, but it wouldn't be neccessary if your stock manegment can adjust duty cycles (which Bosch does). if you were shooting for an additional 60-70 horse, you could easly get away with a programable MAF ($130 for a sensor) ,a set of custom chips. ( i was able to get 6 different fuel maps for my bosch computer for $6 a pop.), and an adjustable Rising rate FPR ($127) What size injectors are you currently running and what kind of pressure do they opperate at? I'm positive I could get a set of 8 for under $400 that would opperate at less than 80% while supplying enough fuel for an extra 70 hp. Try custom headers for more like $300 for the pair ;). I thikn it's where I"m living because there are a ton of great fab shops out here that do GREAT WORK for miriads of muscle cars for dirt cheap. I'm talking top notch. I have several projects in the works, including a possible entry to the $2003 challenge. Sure if you were going all out and for big numbers, you would need a decent intercooler. But if you were really going for big numbers and did your research you would also be making a single turbo setup. And did the 288GTO use air/water coolers? I dont see any water lines...... I'm just looking in a book though. I wouldn't think you would have the room for air/water. Solid headgaskets- I hope you aren't suggesting this because it would "hold in boost". Headgasket failure is due to incorrect Air/Fuel ratios. I would MUCH rather burn through a gasket than put a hole in a piston ;) This is the same reason why Oringing the head is bad. All that stuff does is mask your a/f problem while you are running lean. Bad news man. I would think that if you invest $10k into engine mangement you wouldn't ever have a/f problems. I've seen A/f's nailed down with $200 in sensors out of junk yards and a $6 set of chips. It may take more time to get down but you'll save $9,794.00 BUT, In the past we have used thicker aluminum head gaskets for the sole purpose of lowering compression. -running a higher boost at a lower compression will result in more power But I'm sure most of the people in this thread all have different reasons for wanting forced induction. There are benifits to throwing boost on top of 10:1 compression (is alittle high and scary though if you ask me) You would have more "off boost power" I dont beleive you would need to touch any internals for another 60-70 horse. I'm sure most F cars could handle that on the track, even though most would only see that extra power in moderation on the sunny week end drives. I personally would make a coolant res. That's best way to get one too fit right. And if you wanted water cooled, it wouldn't be a problem if you sourced the oe parts off of another application. (that's what most auto manufacturers do ;) ) If your clutch can't handle 60 more horse there is something wrong. Most clutches have no problem handling 50% more than stock torque. If you guys wear sachs disks, i think you do, you shouldn't have any problems in the transferring of torque department Sachs makes some great stuff. I know 944 turbo guys that are wearing oe cup car sach disks and make over 400 rwhp! You must be getting some great dampers for $2500! Good for you, dampers are very important much more important than an extra 60 horse. You can get H/R springs for $60 a corner, so $240. I'm sure I could get Big Reds to fit on ANYBODY'S car with at least a 17" rim for under $2,000. You could choose to be in dis-beleif or call me a cheap skate But I'd be the one in a solid forced induction car. It's very possible and much easier than you could imagine. Realistically, i could turbocharge a 348 for more like $3k (just less than 10% of that original $35,000 or roughly double the sentra) I think everybody should know about the turbocharger bible. It's called Maximum boost, written by Corky Bell. Its' terrific. Thanks for your time and if you'd like a real time conversation I'm on AIM under "luke9583" | ||
| Steven J. Solomon (Solly)
Member Username: Solly Post Number: 437 Registered: 6-2001 |
I want a turbo for the 360. sign me up. | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 361 Registered: 5-2002 |
Luke, You're right 35K sounds high, but 1400 is very low. Any decent ECU is over $1000, 8 or 12 injectors, say $500. 2 bottom or the line turbos at $500 each. Custom headers $1500. Mid-engine car, so water-air intercooler $500, water punp and tank $300, front heatexchanger $200, oil lines to the turbos $200 plus installation, figure $10k to have the whole job done. Oh but wait, pistons solid head gaskets, o-ring the head, you'll put 10k more in the engine. Not done yet, clutch 600, wheel/tires 5000, shocks 2500, springs 500, brakes 6000. You're really close to $35k for a perfect full out car. | ||
| Luke Wells (Coolhandluke)
New member Username: Coolhandluke Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2003 |
I dont understand why you guys pay so much to go forced induction. It saddens me to see you guys with these expensive bueatiful works of art, having to pay another premium. Dont let n/e one capitolize off you. I mean $35 grand! I have alittle expirience on on topic. Enough to know that, for one, you DONT need MoTec. sure the box looks cool, but I can list 20 bazillion alternatives. Two, you can get a turbo for ANY application (besides deisel commerial trucks ;) ) for around $500. And I know many guys that make custom manifolds look like artwork. It's a shame they ever get dirty. There are MANY people who do BEAUTIFUL work. I know you guys are busy. But this can be done for so much less money. I could get the job done for %10 of that. If it cost $1400 to get hte job done on a sentra, and you need twice as much of everything (2 manny's 2 turbo's) why should you pay another $33,600 ;). if anybody would like to challenge me.... you can reach me at the address in my profile or [email protected] I'm a new registered member though, and I'll be around for a while probably. "HI" ! | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 91 Registered: 11-2002 |
Billybob, We lost 348 Challenge brakes all the time at places like Montreal (worst by far), and Road America. We'd rebuild calipers all the time, use Castrol SRF, experimented with different pads (even though it was not allowed by the rules), air duct improvements, etc. Depends on track and driver. 348 brakes for racing a very good, not the ultimate. There is good reason the F355 Challenge brakes are huge. | ||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 138 Registered: 8-2002 |
"The 348 brakes suck as they are but with added HP you have to chnage them. I had a full brake loss on my 348 I know what I am talking about. SCARY!" I race me 348 with stock brakes. Never had a failure nor fade issues. I'm running 245/275 race tires too. Maybe you over use your brakes. I change out super blue and gold fluid every race. That's the key. Something is wrong with your car. | ||
| Taso Anastasopoulos (90rossa)
New member Username: 90rossa Post Number: 50 Registered: 5-2002 |
Shelton serviced my Koenig Testarossa. Taso | ||
| John Paul Hickman (Veilside355)
New member Username: Veilside355 Post Number: 4 Registered: 1-2003 |
i don't know where i stand right now. i can't picture myself spending $35,000 on just a turbo kit and still have the install prices. I have a car sickness so it keeps me up all night. Super Street magazine is coming to my house on monday to shoot my car. i just want to start the new project. 355's are just so beautiful...but the 900HP in a supra would be un-real. i will continue to research the turbo F car option. | ||
| David A. Spear (Detailman)
New member Username: Detailman Post Number: 37 Registered: 5-2002 |
I would like to have a twin for my F355 as if an F-car wasnt cool already a 355 would be bad ass with 2x turbo. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1039 Registered: 2-2001 |
Supras RULE! LOL... Ernesto | ||
| David J. Smith (Darkhorse512)
Junior Member Username: Darkhorse512 Post Number: 122 Registered: 10-2002 |
I have a question. What are the service related implications for these aftermarket mods? I just imagine taking one of these Koenig tuner cars to a dealer for routine service and the tech's head exploding once he opens the bonnet. Or do these cars need to go back to Texas or Germany for oil changes? | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 324 Registered: 5-2002 |
My 308 has one (pic on my profile), but I've never seen a newer F-car with one. Ferrari's are mainly about roadracing, that means turbos are the weapon of choice. | ||
| Noelrp (Noelrp)
Junior Member Username: Noelrp Post Number: 153 Registered: 8-2001 |
SUPRA? Oh no - not again. | ||
| John Paul Hickman (Veilside355)
New member Username: Veilside355 Post Number: 3 Registered: 1-2003 |
are their any supercharger options? No i do not have the veilside 348/355 as of yet. I do not want to build this car if all i can do is make it look good. yes these cars are already fast....BUT i compete in Shows, and on the track where this all matters. there are many things i can do to change the outside and inside, wheels, suspension, and all that.......i just want to make sure that before i make the big purchase their are mods out there for the motor. if not then for all the money it would take for just the turbo kit.....i could have 900@the wheels in a supra. i had a 97 supra and sold it on ebay. i miss it very much and i had 433@the wheels. thanks so much for the advice, and help. JOHN | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Junior Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 138 Registered: 7-2002 |
Still at Norwood completeing the intercooler upgrade. I should be able to pick it up next weekend or so. I'll keep you posted. | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Junior Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 108 Registered: 11-2002 |
Hey Jeff Hows the new 348 runnin? | ||
| Jeff Edison (Euro308guy)
Junior Member Username: Euro308guy Post Number: 137 Registered: 7-2002 |
John, This is a rgeat topic to call Norwood autocraft about. Jame Patterson can tell you everything you need to know. He is very accomplished in this regard. Get the # @ www.bobnorwood.com | ||
| Mark Eberhardt (Me_k)
Member Username: Me_k Post Number: 322 Registered: 5-2002 |
Martin, You nailed that one! I can't get my poor 308 anywhere near a road course and expect to live more than 1 or 2laps. Yes it makes 360 hp, but no it's not a 360. It's really easy to make a car dangerous. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3563 Registered: 5-2001 |
Really if you are adding a Turbo you have to exchange the brakes. The 348 brakes suck as they are but with added HP you have to chnage them. So you got the cost of the Turbo and the $ 10K for new Brembo brakes and while you are at it, additional oil cooler, water cooler and at that time you should change the heavy seats of the car to light weight carbon seats...should I go on? Just adding the Turbo does not do it. Brakes are critical if you do these HP mods, otherwise you accellerate from 0-100 in 15 secs but drive straight into your grave from there. I had a full brake loss on my 348 I know what I am talking about. SCARY! | ||
| Charles Barton (Airbarton)
Junior Member Username: Airbarton Post Number: 100 Registered: 11-2002 |
I'm interested in the turbo kit. The 348 would be a little monster with 500hp don't you think! | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3552 Registered: 5-2001 |
to their defense there were some tricked out Corvettes that I could not even get in the corners and the Homestead track has 4 straights that you can accellerate pretty good. Some old Race Porsche blew by me every 6 laps, made me look like I was standing still. | ||
| Rob Schermerhorn (Rexrcr)
Junior Member Username: Rexrcr Post Number: 84 Registered: 11-2002 |
Martin, You've discovered what separates the men from the boys, the hardcore drivers vs. the posers: the corners! | ||
| Lucas Taratus (Karmavore)
New member Username: Karmavore Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2002 |
John, Do you have the Veilside 348 Kit on your car? I had heard from them that there weren't any in the country. Do you have pics? Luke. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3543 Registered: 5-2001 |
what for do one needs a turbo kit? I asked myself that question just last Sat on the track. Although I was not near the fastest cars but those guys that had supercharged Corvettes pulled away on the straights but handled so bad in the corners that I caught them there. Made me question that Supercharging altogether. Spending $ 10,000 for a Supercharger and install you are better off getting a 355. Just my 2c, and yes, this is not about staying stock, just can not see the sense in it. Still waiting to see what the verdict is going to be on the 348 TT drive | ||
| Frank K Lipinski (Kaz)
Junior Member Username: Kaz Post Number: 103 Registered: 11-2002 |
Bob Norwood in Texas, (972) 831-8111 | ||
| Justin Randall Kenyon (Kenyon)
Junior Member Username: Kenyon Post Number: 53 Registered: 10-2002 |
Try www.hamann-motorsport.de | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 375 Registered: 2-2002 |
Koenig in Germany: www.koenig-specials.com 348 KOENIG Twin-Turbo engine 382 kW/520 HP /500 NM complete engine conversion with 2 turbo-chargers, additional oil- and gearbox cooling, intercoolers, modified motronic, turbo-pistons, including disassembling and assembling of the engine � 35.500,� performance: 0-100 km/h 3,9 sec. (62mph) 0-200 km/h 12,5 sec. (124mph) standing 1/4 mile 12 sec. top speed 320 km/h driving performance depends on gear ratio KOENIG longer transmission appr. 13 % longer gear ratio, higher top speed, reinforced � 3.000,� installation with change of intermediate transmission in the car � 1.000,� shorter transmission on request 355 KOENIG Twin-Turbo 412 kW / 560 HP /550 NM complete engine conversion with 2 turbo-chargers (KKK), turbo-manifolds reduced compression (changed pistons), additional oil- and gearbox-cooling, special head gaskets, 2 intercoolers, changed exhaust-system, modified motronic, special air flow-meters, including dissassembling and assembling of the engine. � 35.500,� performance: 0-100 km/h 3,7 sec. (62mph) 0-200 km/h 11,9 sec. (124mph) standing 1/4 mile 11,5 sec. top speed 325 km/h driving performance depends on gear ratio gear ratio up to 330 km/h � 3.100,� gear ratio, short � 3.100,� Norwood Performance does the same kind of work in Dallas (972-831-8111). | ||
| John Paul Hickman (Veilside355)
New member Username: Veilside355 Post Number: 2 Registered: 1-2003 |
i will check into the lotec. thanks thats one more, keep them coming if you know of more! any web sites and anyone that actually has done engine mods to your 348 or 355! | ||
| Modified348ts (Modman)
Member Username: Modman Post Number: 429 Registered: 11-2001 |
Lotec already makes a turbo kit for the 348 and so has another but forgot the name... | ||
| John Paul Hickman (Veilside355)
New member Username: Veilside355 Post Number: 1 Registered: 1-2003 |
I currently Own a car that will be featured in the Movie "The Fast and the Furious 2" I am going to be starting on a new project soon. I only go with aftermarket parts. I base each car on what is out there in the aftermarket areas. I have been thinking of doing the Veilside carbon fiber 348/355 body kit. Along with this i have been talking with a few shops about making a twin turbo kit. This posting is not to bring about comments on how the ferrari should be left stock. as i said i am not interested in stock. I was just wondering if I did put this kit together if i should have it made so that a kit can be sold to the public? and if a kit already is out there then PLEASE PLEASE let me know about it. I have been all over the net and contacted many people....but i have yet to see a turbo kit for the 355 or 348. Any suggestions or people wanting me to develop a kit for sale....LET ME KNOW! Thanks in advance!!! John |