| Author | Message | ||
| Nebula Class (Nebulaclass)
Junior Member Username: Nebulaclass Post Number: 76 Registered: 11-2002 |
Ferrari chooses to use belts vs chains due to weight savings. Even a few pounds here and there makes a difference when you add it up. Especially if it is rotational weight (flywheel, belt, etc etc). Of course, titanium can be used, and it would be as heavy as the new kevlar reinforced belts. As for stretching of chains, it no longer is an issue. A friend of mine had a 98 Cobra. He's dyno'd it twice. Once, at 2500 miles, and the second time at 98,000 miles. Same chain, same engine, only a few more miles. There was a difference of 8 RWHP, and that can be chalked up to wear and tear. That engine, with 305hp, DOHC 4.6 V8, and with a 7200 redline, uses chains. Is a Cobra a Ferrari? Hell no, but Ferrari should (and does) have no problems with using chains on future cars (re: Enzo). | ||
| Willis Huang (Willis360)
Intermediate Member Username: Willis360 Post Number: 1090 Registered: 8-2001 |
The Enzo's on belt. The engine was described in Prancing Horse Magazine #145 page 28. Also mentioned in the Enzo press kit page 10. | ||
| Hubert Otlik (Hugh)
Member Username: Hugh Post Number: 415 Registered: 1-2002 |
The s2000, and the new series of Honda engine (k series) runs on belts. The s2000 revs to 9000 rpm, and the k series motors, in regular trim, run up b/w 7600 and 8000, while the type r motors go to 8400 rpm. The early problems with chains were the same as early valvetrain problems: metallurgy. The chains would stretch over time. Moderen metallurgy has, over time, made leap and bound imporvements, and so have the chains. The next obstacle was noise, the chains we're inherantly loud, and to a more getile consumer base became 'annoying', thus the advents of belts. However, the belts had problems as the early fiber type belts/rubber, and unreinforced belts couldn't take the strees'. Now with modern materials, and kevlar reinforcemnent, the belts have become much more durable, and pratical, not to mention fiscally attractive. But, at the end of the day, chains are more attractive to the consumer, and offer greater durability. The new enzo is on chains, the porsches have run chains for ages, BMW M motors, and now the new Maseratis. Dealers will still pay rent b/c, slowly and surely, they are phasing out a lot of the intermediate technictians; extending service intervals, etc., they will recoup the money, somehow. | ||
| Jens Haller (Jh280774)
Junior Member Username: Jh280774 Post Number: 171 Registered: 9-2001 |
If you don�t like "major ripoff" of any kind you should definitely stay far away from Ferrari. I have never ever spend more money on any car than on my Ferrari. I always thought that the service for a 911 Porsche would be expensive but it�s not nearly the fifth of the costs than I pay for my 348. Sad thing is that the 911 (993) has run 250000 km without any major problems while my Ferrari has run only 40000 km. What annoys me most is the fact that every mechanic thinks that it is just normal to spend some 10000 of Euros per year (!!!) for a Ferrari because if you have such a car you don�t have to care about money anymore. In fact the opposite is the truth: I can only afford myself a Ferrari because I don�t waste any money... Con saluti cordialissimi, Jens Haller P.S. Aren�t there any FChat members who sold their Fcar lately because they were disappointed by the enormous maintenance costs? Think I am going to join them if this goes on with my car! | ||
| Paul Hill (348paul)
New member Username: 348paul Post Number: 13 Registered: 12-2002 |
I am sure that when any car manufacturer designs an engine they always put a small amount of �Under Engineered� into the equation. Be it for whatever reason. � One thing that has surprised me over the years of belt driven camshafts is that there has never been any fail safe. As a crack pot idea � how about 2 belts side by side with the second belt at a slightly lesser tension. Theoretically the second belt is under no way near as much strain as the main belt and with the aid of a proximity switch sensing on the outer of the first belt, soon as is snaps it could cut off the ignition etc. If the main belt decides to say good-bye the second can at least drive the camshafts & stop the valves from becoming part of the pistons! � I know you wouldn�t be able to get the car home but I know I would rather fork out �200 for a tow truck rather that �6-8000 for an engine rebuild! Some one might have already done it � don�t know! Over Engineered? �Just don�t ask be to build an aeroplane � it would never get off the ground  | ||
| Michael Fennell (Mfennell70)
Junior Member Username: Mfennell70 Post Number: 82 Registered: 7-2001 |
Just to pick nits with BillyBob, BMWs have chains now. At least the inline 6s have since '92 or so (M50 engine?), the 4s (M42) since '91. | ||
| Ric Rainbolt (Ricrain)
Member Username: Ricrain Post Number: 380 Registered: 2-2002 |
Rest yer fears Billy Bob, the new motor was designed by Ferrari, not Maserati (well they're the same now, so it really doesn't matter). The guy who designed it designed the current generation of F1 motors that Ferrari uses. I've seen the internals of the Maser motor, and it's an impressive design. Extremely well built, too. As far as reliability goes... only time will tell. | ||
| Mitch Alsup (Mitch_alsup)
Member Username: Mitch_alsup Post Number: 293 Registered: 4-2002 |
The stress on a belt goes up with the rotational acceleration capability of the engine. With high compression, light crank shafts, titanium rods, Ferrari engines can accelerate rotationally faster than most engines. Zing-zing. The load on the belt goes up with irregularities of camshaft turning. DOHC on V8s have 4 load periods per turn (2 revs at crank) and significant periods with no load. Whack, whack. As belt pulling stress goes up linearly, stress induced breakage of the interior fibers goes up quadradically (at least or cubically at worst). Just because a 6,000 RPM SOHC 4 banger can get 60K miles out of a belt, a 9,000 RPM engine (that can go from idle to red line in 1/2 the time of that 4 banger) cannot get that many miles on a belt --- Safely. A while back, it was argued that a new crate engine for a 348 could be had for ~$20K, that the average 348 owner could save money by not performing any engine out services until the belts broke, then just replacing the whole shebang. 4 services not done would run just about what the crate engine runs. (This does not take into account, bearings, tensioners, water pumps and the like.) Major Ripoff: Consider that you are driving around in a late 1970s Formula one engine tuned to meat emissions and run for 100,000 miles before really serious work is perfomred inside the engine--I think that the maintanance is "not that excessive". If you consider it excessive, might I suggest a corvett or viper is in your future? | ||
| Lawrence Coppari (Lawrence)
Member Username: Lawrence Post Number: 456 Registered: 4-2002 |
When Mercedes first changed to the 380 from the old 450 in the early '80s, they went from a double linked timing chain to a single link chain. The chains began snapping at about 50K. They were covered under warranty. I monitor the Mercedes threads. They are as phobic about the chains are we are about the belts. As far as breakage goes, Porsche 944's tend to break the most belts. But this might be because of the age of the drivers. The experienced people on the list never break the belts on 944 car. One of my daily drivers is a 23 year old 450. I changed the chain at 100K. It was easy to do. Also with chains, you have tensioners to repair. I now have about 140K on my 23 year old. As I do not hear chain slap when starting, I have not changed the tensioners. You cannot hear the chains when the engine runs. As far as weight goes, there is a little additional weight. If you are that concerned about the extra weight, take an Exlax the night before you drive the car. | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 627 Registered: 10-2001 |
Granted my engine is just a 1.6 liter 4 banger, but the chain isn't all that heavy, I'd guesstimate 4 pounds? I've never lifted a Ferrari belt but they don't look light. On tiny high revving engines I agree even an ounce or two can make a difference. Several of us have gone to aluminum flywheels and they notice the power difference, although it's not all that streetable with it. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3578 Registered: 5-2001 |
maybe they can make them now from Tiutanium...I mean the technology has way advanced on that in the past 20 years. | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3577 Registered: 5-2001 |
Chains are heavier, arn't they? | ||
| Ken (Allyn)
Member Username: Allyn Post Number: 626 Registered: 10-2001 |
My Lotus has a chain and I love it. I never hear it as the car is pretty loud anyway, and I can replace it myself if I need to. In fact, I've had it off when I put in the new water pump. I cast a vote for chains! | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 330 Registered: 3-2001 |
I'm not aware of the technological issues surrounding chains. I would be interested in hearing from the engineers and motor experts on the site. Frank....good one! | ||
| Bruno (Originalsinner)
Member Username: Originalsinner Post Number: 870 Registered: 5-2002 |
v12 Fcars had chains with adjustments for stretch that did not require engine removal.Way better than belts. Besides, Rarely do you hear of a timing chain failure and they were used in millions of cars. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1054 Registered: 2-2001 |
It would be interesting to see the life of the Honda S2000's belts (I assumine they are belts). The S2000 engine rev higher than the Ferraris... Ernesto | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3574 Registered: 5-2001 |
My mothers Toyota (12 years old) went to the dealer for a service and they suggested to her to have the belt changed. Yes after 12 years although there was no sign of wear. Ferraris fault? No. My< moms Toyo does not rev at 8000RPM and does not pull that kind of torque. So the bearings don't get stressed and are able to fail. You got to put these things in perspective. Is it really necessary to overhaul an aircraft engine every 2000 Hours? (whatever thier intervals are) ? No, but do you want it to fail on you in mid-air? | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3573 Registered: 5-2001 |
aren't Ps still chain driven? | ||
| billy bob (Fatbillybob)
Junior Member Username: Fatbillybob Post Number: 137 Registered: 8-2002 |
Woe to the customer! Chains are a step backward. The Japanese make these belts go 60kmiles and beyond. BMW too. Chains stretch and effect timing more than belts. I wonder it Ferrari will adopt the stupid open liner head design of Maser? Then you won't have timing belt slips but you will get head gasket blows. Sounds good to me eh? What is wrong with Ferrari technology? Time to buy P-mobiles? | ||
| Martin - Cavallino Motors (Miami348ts)
Advanced Member Username: Miami348ts Post Number: 3572 Registered: 5-2001 |
LOL Frank! | ||
| Frank Parker (Parkerfe)
Intermediate Member Username: Parkerfe Post Number: 1665 Registered: 9-2001 |
But the engine will have to come out for an oil change. | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 329 Registered: 3-2001 |
From what I understand, the fact that the next generation 8 cylinder motor which will be derived from Maser, will be chain driven. Doesn't this mean the end to the 'major ripoff' major service belt change?? (I do my major services myself, for pennies on the dollar compared to the dealers) How will dealers pay the rent?? Also, future generation motors for all F cars will probably head in the same direction......WOE TO THE DEALER!! |