| Author | Message | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 339 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jon If you search under MK-IV or P4 photos you'll find pics and history of my car. Mine is the only MK-IV that finished LeMans that still runs. Lee Holman is trying to set this up. I think they want a MKI a MKII a MK-IV and the new Ford GT to run with the pace car before the start on the warm up laps. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 356 Registered: 8-2001 |
James, If you have any digital pictures of the car please post them, would love to see them. How many MK-IV's are they expecting. Regards, Jon P. Kofod | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 337 Registered: 10-2002 |
Those boys really bang and bump over there. Reminds me of NASCAR. Speaking of which I may be doing a parade/pace lap or 2 in my MK-IV before the start of the Firecracker 400 next July 4th to celabrate Fords 100th. Will advise. Best Jim | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 354 Registered: 8-2001 |
Hope they do a hell of a lot better than the ones entered in the Japanese Touring Car Championship. Those Diablo GTR's got trounced by 3.5 liter NSX's and Toyota Supra's with 2.0 liter turbocharged four bangers in the 500 class. In fact at some races they were nearly passed by the less powerfull 300 class cars suchs as the MR2. The few times Lambos have raced throughout history they have been dismal. Regards, Jon    | ||
| PSk (Psk)
New member Username: Psk Post Number: 29 Registered: 11-2002 |
Allan, [Quote]Just wanted to let you all know that I was just informed that 2 Diablo GTR's are being prepared for and will be entering the American LeMans Racing Series. This should be interesting to watch. Schedule below ... [End Quote] Now we are talking, as I have said before (on the other thread) Lambos can cut it on the race track, and they are now on the road to respect in the performance/racing world. Unfortunately nowadays what you buy for a road car is not the same car as what they race (as it should be, as the requirements are different ... but I have said all I want to say there). Even the McLaren F1 has a race version with a longer tail, etc. BTW Allan, I never pretend I am something other than I am as I have nothing to be ashamed of. Thus yes I do not own a Ferrari or a Lambo, because I chose to pour my money into motor racing. Thus if I feel the need for speed or performance ... I am not interested in pretending or half doing it on a road car, I need to go racing again  , although that may change with age. Thus I am perfectly happy with my Alfa GTV as it is fun and fast enough for the road (and my license is a lot safer ). IMO, At last Lambo is correctly their creators cowardly stance and putting their creations to the ultimate test. Pete | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 269 Registered: 10-2002 |
King! Read your first post. You are not performing what you are seeking to preach against, are you? | ||
| The Ferrari King (Theferrariking)
New member Username: Theferrariking Post Number: 26 Registered: 1-2003 |
FORZA HIM TOO King | ||
| Peter S�derlund /328 GTB -88 (Corsa)
Member Username: Corsa Post Number: 294 Registered: 4-2001 |
FORZA THAT SMALL GUY WITH A FIDDLE CASE THAT WILL APPEAR ON YOUR DOORSTEP. | ||
| The Ferrari King (Theferrariking)
New member Username: Theferrariking Post Number: 23 Registered: 1-2003 |
You should know Ernesto, you should know. FORZA LIAR as well in your case. FORZA LASAGNA FORZA LUCA FORZA JEAN FORZA ROSS King | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1093 Registered: 2-2001 |
FORZA MORONS Ernesto | ||
| The Ferrari King (Theferrariking)
New member Username: Theferrariking Post Number: 17 Registered: 1-2003 |
Feruccio Lamborghini's attempt to compete with Ferrari was the work of an amateur. Why waste time talking about his current junk or anything other than the best - FERRARI!!! Time in this world is short - spend it with the best - FERRARI FORZA FERRARI FORZA FERRARICHAT FORZA IL CAVALLINO FORZA TIFOSI FORZA RIGATONI FORZA AGIP FORZA GETTING RIPPED OFF BY FNA FORZA GETTING RIPPED OFF BY FERRARI SPA FORZA SOPHIA LOREN'S JUGS FORZA FORZA King | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 267 Registered: 10-2002 |
Allan, I agree that the 0-60 mph times for the Diablos shown in the local VCD may not be fair results. I saw no smoking wheels from the Diablos doing the tests, which I believe would have been necessary in order to enable the Diablos to yield their maximum performance. As regards the racing VCD with the F50 and the Murcielago, I would sit down and watch the VCD again. This time I will be taking notes, and I shall let you have the result. | ||
| Modified348ts (Modman)
Member Username: Modman Post Number: 436 Registered: 11-2001 |
Well Bart some will understand what I'm talking about but for those and yourself I will clarify my quote. What I'm trying to explain is that you cannot get a good review and give a performance evaluation on certain cars without the experience of owning one, you can't just look at them, read of them, or know someone who has one therefore how can you give an evaluation on which is better without really driving it hard and you can't really have the opportunity to do it at your local dealership selling exotics. I'm not saying all opinions are not considered by those who don't own either makes but saying it is very hard to accept the opinions from one who has not the experience of ownership of driving one. If you wanted an opinion on a car you are about to purchase would you take advice from one who doesn't own or driven one, one who owns and brags of what he only owns or one who has owned many with the experience of driving them. Before I make an investment on a high dollar car, I look for what the car does for me before I ask for ones opinion. When I had my first Ferrari a person asked me why didn't I buy a McLlaren? Stupid question I thought, do I need to explain? There are different mentality in this world and a lot of stupid remarks made without any thought but this is human mentality, some have it some have very little of it. Keep it real.... Make money....buy it all and you don't have to worry of peoples comments cause you live your dreams and not someone elses.... | ||
| Peter S�derlund /328 GTB -88 (Corsa)
Member Username: Corsa Post Number: 293 Registered: 4-2001 |
Pat "on a drag strip" LOL. Ciao Peter | ||
| Pat Pasqualini (Enzo)
Junior Member Username: Enzo Post Number: 157 Registered: 2-2002 |
Is that going to be at the drag strip? | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 283 Registered: 6-2002 |
Privateers. There is also a race series planned for the Baby Lambo just like the Ferrari Challange. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1087 Registered: 2-2001 |
Sounds great Allan. Can't wait to see the results. Are they private teams, or factory efforts? It should be interested to say the least, and I hope this is the first step in increasing motorsports activity at Lamborghini now that they are VW backed. Ernesto | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 282 Registered: 6-2002 |
KCCK, I have the video you speak of with the Murcielago. You forgot to mention that it was also noted by the driver that he wanted to take it easy the first lap and get used to the car as he had no seat time behind it as of yet, and also that he was informed by the owner to take it easy on the car as it was brand new. The Murcielago did lose that race, it lost to a MODIFIED F50, and a MODIFIED GT2. I also have a video with a Diablo Sv, which also lost the race to a Modified F50, And a Modified F40, but beat a 355 that was also modified. the 355 lost also to a Skyline Gtr. 0-60 in 6 seconds in a Diablo? Did they start out in 3rd? In the video i have stated above, the Diablo cover the 1/4 in 12.1 seconds, vs 11.80 in the F40. Why dont they ever compare the Diablos to 550's or 575's? I think its because they wouldnt have enough video left to wait till the Ferraris crossed the finish line! | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 264 Registered: 10-2002 |
Delighted to know that, Allan. Can't wait to see the results. | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 281 Registered: 6-2002 |
Just wanted to let you all know that I was just informed that 2 Diablo GTR's are being prepared for and will be entering the American LeMans Racing Series. This should be interesting to watch. Schedule below. Mar. 13-15 51st Annual Mobil1 Twelve Hours of Sebring Sebring International Raceway (3.7 Miles) Sebring, Florida, USA 12 Hours Apr. 3-5 Autodromo Hermanos Rodriguez (2.75 Miles) Mexico City, Mexico 6 Hours June 27-29 Cadillac Grand Prix of Washington, D.C. RFK Stadium Circuit (1.661 Miles) Washington, D.C., USA 2 Hours 45 Minutes July 25-27 Infineon Grand Prix of Sonoma Infineon Raceway (2.53 Miles) Sonoma, California, USA 2 Hours 45 Minutes Aug. 1-3 Le Grand Prix de Trois-Rivieres Circuit de Trois-Rivieres (1.52 Miles) Trois-Rivieres, Quebec, Canada 3 Hours Aug. 15-17 mail2web.com Grand Prix of Mosport Mosport International Raceway (2.459 Miles) Bowmanville, Ontario, Canada 2 Hours 45 Minutes Aug. 22-24 Road America Road America (4 Miles) Elkhart Lake, Wisconsin, USA 2 Hours 45 Minutes Sept. 5-7 Monterey Sports Car Championships Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca (2.238 Miles) Monterey, California, USA 2 Hours 45 Minutes Sept. 26-27 Grand Prix Americas Miami Downtown Street Circuit (length TBA) Miami, Florida, USA 2 Hours 45 Minutes Oct. 15-18 Audi presents Petit Le Mans Road Atlanta Motor Sports Center (2.54 Miles) Braselton, Georgia, USA 1,000 Miles or 10 Hours ------------------------------------------------------------ | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 261 Registered: 10-2002 |
There is one more thing. In the December 2002 Issue of Best Motoring VCD (see the other thread entitled "Nice test video from Japan!" and http://www.runeb.org/www_docs/Jexoticasite/soundandvideo/Best_Motoring-SuperCar_Race.mpg), the Murcielago was said to be too heavy, weight distribution too rear-biased, handling too disappointing, and engine not as powerful as was expected. The Murcielago also lost the race. | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 256 Registered: 10-2002 |
Talking about Le Mans, the 550 Maranello (enetered by Prodrive) was the fastest GTS car at Le Mans this year at Le Sarthe, leading at one stage by almost 3 laps until 2 things let it down :- 1. the need to refuel; and 2. a fractured oil pipe leading to fire in the engine compartment and exhaust headers. Porsche eventually won the race. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 343 Registered: 8-2001 |
James, No arguement on your points. Indeed as a former Porsche owner (5 of them) I consider the 956/962 the greatest race cars built when one looks over the extensive race history, longevity, and utter domination of endurance racing in the 80' and early 90's. Over a single race season or lap I still think the 917/30 was even greater but statistics put the 956/962 ahead. However, those are real race cars and were never designed for any road use. My point was to show that the F1 was a real road car that you could buy and drive in the US on the steet with minimal modifications (lights and bumpers to comply with DOT) and also race against purpose built race cars. As a race car the F1 is just a small footnote in the history of sports car racing, barely needing mention except for the fact that it won LeMans. But as a road car it's pretty damn impressive when you consider what minimal modifications were needed to race it against real race cars. Andrew You are technically correct about factory involvement to a certain point. But McLaren at the time they built the F1 were not owned or funded by Mercedes or AMG and were so cash strapped they couldn't design their own engine and had to borrow BMW's 12 cylinder. McLaren was a small British outfit with about 100 people working on the car. I would hardly call them a factory. And Schnitzer is not a factory race team either. They are a small privateer outfit based in Freilassing, Germany and employ currently around 55 people, hardly a factory. Gulf was also not a factory team but a sponsor on James Weavers car. If you want to call McLaren a factory team and Michelotto a non-factory team you are free to do so, but I would say in terms of staff and factory facilities they are the same. Whether the F1 cost 5 times or 10 times more is not my point nor is debating which car had factory support and which did not. Ignoring price and where it was built the F1 is in my opinion (and no, I have never driven one, although I have sat in one) the greatest and fastest road car built that could also be raced. The fact that you can actually buy one and drive it on the street in the US with all it's expensive DOT/EPA restrictions is even more amazing. Is it worth tripple the price over an F40? or 50% over an F50? Well that depends on who's money we are talking about. With an unlimited budget I would have an F1 GTR like Nick Mason's car and drive it on the street and to the track. Regards, Jon | ||
| KCCK (Kenneth)
Member Username: Kenneth Post Number: 255 Registered: 10-2002 |
Performance varies widely with the driver if one is talking only about street cars, and in such event the criteria should be that of the average street driver, and not the expert racing driver. The story below illustrates the point. Over here in Hong Kong, a car magazine has just released a VCD, featuring over a dozen Diablos, of all sorts, being taken to the Zhuhai race track for a gentle day out. They unofficially tested the 0-60 mph times for 2 different Diablos. The first Diablo? 6 seconds. The second Diablo? 6.2 seconds. Of course in the hands of an expert, a Diablo could be much faster. But faster on the street? Well, not necessarily, because it all depends on the driver, how he drops the clutch, and how he floors the pedal. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 321 Registered: 10-2002 |
Jon As there are horses for courses there are cars for tracks. My MK-IV was more suited for the 24 hours of LeMans than my P4 which was a much more all around car. Even though Ferrari lost LeMans that year the P4 did win the overall championship. The fastest LeMans car ever 250MPH was a Peugeot but it probably wasn't as nimble on short tracks. The 956 P car lap time at the ring 6:11 is the one I marvel at as that car and the 962 won almost everywhere they raced. I've driven a 962 and a F1. The F1 was fast, but the 962 was IMHO the real deal... | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 478 Registered: 10-2001 |
again ,the F40 was 8 years old , and NOT factory supported.It was privately entered by amateurs. The Mclarens were factory supported and entered by big racing team such as Schnitzer and Gulf... Just to put things in perspective. Also the F1 pricetag was $1M vs $ 200 000 for a F40 or $ 500 000 for a Michelotto GTE. | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 279 Registered: 6-2002 |
And Ernesto, i have taken my car to the track. Ive taken it out with the Lambo club to Moroso in Palm Beach. So since i have taken it to the track, does that mean im a race car driver? Does it mean that since youve played Sega Ferrari Gt you own a Ferrari and can drive one well also? | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 342 Registered: 8-2001 |
Yeah the F40GTE did prove fast but it got trounced in the BPR series. It was on pole several times but the car always blew up or ended up crashing. It never did anything at LeMans other than show up. And remember the F40 GTE had much larger Turbo's, different cams, intercollers and a completely revised engine managment system. The F1 ran a completely stock normally aspirated BMW street engine. Other than reprogramed engine mamangement system and a different gear box (They kept breaking them)it was stock. The difference between a F40 road car and an F40 GTE/LM is about 250 horsepower. The difference between the F1 and F1 GTR was only about a claimed 47 horsepower. And I have yet to see anyone (magazine or Ferrari) claim to have beaten the F1's 0-100 time although Ferrari talked about this being the goal with the Enzo (0-100 in under 6.2) it has yet to be established. For those of you who bought or buy your cars for driving around town, grocery hauling, cruising down a deserted highway at high speed. Picking up chicks or simply love the awesome styling of a Lambo, Porsche, F-Car or whatever, you probably are not concerned with lap times. However to some of us who spend more time on the track with our cars, it is important. I drive an Audi station wagon much of the week and sometimes my 1 ton Chevy Silverado and I couldn't care less what lap times either does and apparently nobody else does either because neither Chevy nor Audi choose to test either of these cars at the Ring. Some of us value certain attributes over others.If lap times are not important to you thats fine. Nothing wrong there. The flip side is that to some of us a lap time at the Ring that can be compared against a competitors street car in equal conditons is a relative measure of the car's handling performance. Some of us care about lap times so we can evaluate the relative perormance of the car against others. When I pay 150K for a car I am paying for performance and a certain amount of styling and racing heritige. If my 150K F-Car gets trounced at the Ring by a Nissan Skyline costing nearly half I am a bit disappointed. I am the type of person who will pay at the whazoo for a faster car, both in a straight line and in the handling dpeartment. To some people this is unimportant as they are more concerned about comfortable seating, stylish interior, premium sound system, open air motoring, cup holders, map pockets, and so on. I would nver spend 100K on a four door luxury sedan like the BMW 760i or the Merc S class or a Jaguar. I don't care about the leather seats, the I-drive system, or the great electronic gizmo's on today's latest boulevard cruiser but someone must otherwise BMW, Merc, Jaguar, and Maserati would be selling them. For those of us excited about ulitmate street performance we read Auto Motor Und Sport (or if you can't read German Road and Track) to compare lap times. For those of you not interested in lap times you need to read Consumer Reports for that review of Ferrari's newly redesigned comfort seat or cupholder! If you don't go to the track with your car or you don't drive it fast on the street I can see why all this is pointless about laptimes, top speed, and all the other hoopla we are touting. But if you want to compare performance how else are you going to do it? The only time I would put less emphasis on lap times or speeds is in the area of how the car feels. If you read the initial road tests of the 360 and the 996 TT nearly every test the 996 beat the 360 in 0-60, 0-100, and in lap times (with one exception in CD). But which car did they prefer in each test. The 360, sounded better, felt better, more rewarding to drive and at the end of the day more exhilerating. So yes, some of you are correct that lap times are not everything but to some of us lap times rank ahead of those neat transparent engine covers that allow you to see your engine. Regards, Jon P. Kofod | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 278 Registered: 6-2002 |
Ernesto, still twisting words around like crazy arent we? An Sv proved uncompetitive? Haha, an old, under braked, less powerfull version lapped as quickly as a 360 did, and a 550 lapped 2/10 0f a second quicker. Nothing like comparing models of cars that are several years NEWER but thats ok. Bring out a Diablo SV MY98/99 or Diablo 6.0 and see what happens. When you compare NEWER Ferraris to older LAmbos, They win by 2/10th of a second, when you compare new Ferraris to new Lambos, the Lambos win by 22 seconds!Very Funny to me. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 319 Registered: 10-2002 |
Not bad at all. | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 475 Registered: 10-2001 |
James , thats true but the F1 were developped by the factory whereas the F40 GTE was developped by Michelotto. Also the F40 was at that time an 8 years old car.What i meant to say is that the F40 proved faster than the F1 GTR around several tracks ( Magny Cours , Anderstop ...). Not to bad for an old and privately developped car.. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 317 Registered: 10-2002 |
Andrew The 24 Hours of LeMans. Unfortuneatly it's been a while since Ferrari won that. The FI did, the F40 didn't. | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1082 Registered: 2-2001 |
Jon, although it pains me to say it, I have to agree that the F1 is the greatest road car of all time from a performance point of view. I think it also looks great, not as good as an F40 or F50, but still good enough. But, an F50 will be VERY competitive around a track, even beat the F1 at some. The Enzo will hopefully destroy it (although still short at top speed). Why talk about lap times in HIGH PERFMANCE EXOTICS? Should that not be their reason for being? To race around tracks, as well as be driven on the street? I just think its funny how this started with the Diablo, and when that proved uncompetitive around tracks (the 360M is just as fast as the SV at the Ring), we moved to the Murcielago. I, for one, love to hear lap times and other performance figures because that is what these cars are supposed to do. I am not a professional driver, so my lap times will be nowhere as indicative as others. The bottom line is that you shouldn't be bragging over your car being faster than X car if you dont take it to the track at least once in a while to see what it can do. Just talking about it and continuously citing magazines articles doesn't mean you are faster... Ernesto | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 466 Registered: 10-2001 |
About the F1 being the fastest road car ...Its true on a straight line. But we dont have any lap time for the F1 ..All i remember is that Old F40 GTE were as fast as F1 GTR during the BPR championship.. | ||
| Ton Visser (Lion315)
Junior Member Username: Lion315 Post Number: 73 Registered: 12-2002 |
Bart, Ugh.....Ik heb gezegd! | ||
| Bart Boonacker (Sharky666)
Junior Member Username: Sharky666 Post Number: 156 Registered: 9-2002 |
I've been reading all this showing off and I just don't get it. Who gives a f*ck how fast another car is on a track you've never been ?? Sure, it's a Murcie or a 575M or whatever and you might own one aswell, but it isn't YOUR car and you AINT driving it, so what's the point of bringing up these numbers. And yes it is off-topic, because the main-topic is about Lambo's. I completly agree with Psk, who cares about lap times etc. when you buy a ROAD-car ? You know a Lambo or a Ferrari is a fast car but you'll never have the opportunity to reach those speeds unless you live in Germany or when you decide to track it. And when someone isn't tracking it, why bring up the numbers ?? It's all just to show off and pose like you've got the biggest ****. And yes, this also goes for Ferrari owners trying to show off (but the showing off goes for like 50% of the lambo owners and like 5% of Ferrari owners). Don't get me wrong I love to see lap times etc. but not if you want to show off with lap-times YOU DIDN'T do. PS. Just MY opinion and �0.02 PSS. modman : what do you mean by [quote]for those who don't, they need to focus on making money then get themselves their own first dream car and start learning about car sense, only then will their comments can be welcomed. [End quote] That people with no/less money then you can't post their opinions ? And that they don't have any car sense ?? PSSS. Just pull the plug on this, I aint gonna reply anymore but I just had to post this. | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 277 Registered: 6-2002 |
Modman, i agree with you. I just posted the lap ime in response to those people who tried posting lap times to the contrary. Jon, i also agree with you on the Mclaren issue. It most certainly is the fastest. As for being the best looking, that i disagree on, especially in street form. There are plenty of Ferraris and Lambos that are far better looking. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 341 Registered: 8-2001 |
OK, I know how to end this one. You want the fastest road car ever built that is street legal AND a race car. The McLaren F1 is still the greatest road car built. PERIOD! It hit 230+ mph on street tires in street trim and won the 24 Hours of LeMans with minimal modifications. Say what you want about the Lambo, 575, Enzo or whatever, they all get dusted by the F1. Gordon Murray set to prove his car was the fastest in top speed, 0-60, 0-100, 0-180 AND he raced the darn cars at LeMans and they won beating faster Prototypes to boot. The car was built nearly 10 years ago and still has the fastest recored time from 0-100 (6 seconds) and top speed of 231 miles per hour. Say what you want about it's looks but nothing Ferrari (except the 2003F1) or Lambo builds can match it. Hell in street legal road trim it out accelerated an f1 car from 100-150. I don't know what the big deal is with Lambo vs. F-car debate. If i had the money I would own one of both (either a Murcie and a Enzo or a 575). Ok, feel free to bash me for saying the McLaren is the greatest road car ever built on a Ferrari forum. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 Still saving pennies for my F1 | ||
| Modified348ts (Modman)
Member Username: Modman Post Number: 433 Registered: 11-2001 |
Even more rediculous to hear untrue comments from those who have no experience with even owning either both Ferrari or Lambo. I hear too much of HP and weight but hey most importantly what about gear ratio! The tranny is very important when it comes to track times too besides braking and accelleration. Some of you fellas need to get real, you can't compare these cars as they were made for different intentions and besides if you had an almost 300K car would you risk the chance of wrecking it on the track and knowing your insurance don't cover your street licensed car raced on the track? it's common sense that most of us who race our cars on the track know that if we wreck it we'll have to replace it out of our pockets. When I took out my Ferrari I knew of the possibilities but was ready for the worst, but I didn't have to pay a lot for the car, can you see your new dream car get mangled up? maybe later when you make well over 7 figures or don't give a *hit about it. Allan Fielder, you have some interesting comments but man, you really don't have to go on making a point as there are some of us who know the difference in the cars and for those who don't, they need to focus on making money then get themselves their own first dream car and start learning about car sense, only then will their comments can be welcomed. Frankly I don't give a *hit about the fastest and all because it will soon become middle of the road or slower in the future but what can never change is the art of the vehicle itself and both Ferrari and Lambo does it well, hey, why else would I own both? Go figures, I live my dream and want to continue on as I'm sure most of us desire these things, why else did we buy our first Ferrari? OOOHH it's a Ferrari! the looks! Ok maybe not for everyone but I'm sure it's a high percentile it most certainly is. It was for me, but hey it's OK cause it made me more money but that's a different story. Get real fellas, that's my advice to ya all. | ||
| RyanK (Ryanab)
Junior Member Username: Ryanab Post Number: 243 Registered: 3-2002 |
Alan, please "preach" at the lamboforum.. This is just getting sad. Forza, Ryan | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 276 Registered: 6-2002 |
Hey Psk, love your profile, atleast your honest unlike Ernesto. Ferrari cars owned=none!lol | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 275 Registered: 6-2002 |
Lambo did not bring the car to the Nurburgring to prove anything, a magazine did it. Hey im very happy knowing that Lamborghini builds the finest street cars in the world, and Ferrari builds the finest F1 cars. Since i wont bring my street car into F1, and they wont bring their F1 onto the streets, i guess neither one of us have anything to worry about! | ||
| PSk (Psk)
New member Username: Psk Post Number: 28 Registered: 11-2002 |
Heh Tom, [Quote]My Grandma lapped the house in 7.35 with her twin battery wheel chair[End Quote] Did she have NOS turned on, and does she get kisses blown at her (no offense intended to your Grandma BTW) when she fills it up. hahaha Pete BTW: If I ever was in the position to buy a Lambo, I would be a very happy chappy ... and maybe even buy it ... but hopefully without the inferiority complex ... whoops, stirring now | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1081 Registered: 2-2001 |
Just go to club meets for both Ferrari and Lamborghini, and you can see and feel the difference between which are doing the driving and which are doing the parking (at least from those that I have been to in NY and FL). Ernesto | ||
| Tom Bakowsky (Tbakowsky)
Junior Member Username: Tbakowsky Post Number: 153 Registered: 9-2002 |
My Grandma lapped the house in 7.35 with her twin battery wheel chair | ||
| Patrick (Patrickr)
Junior Member Username: Patrickr Post Number: 88 Registered: 4-2002 |
Hmmm... if I was stuck with deciding between a 575M and a Murcielago, I'd just be happy. That is the kind of "problem" I hope I will have in a few years Patrick | ||
| PSk (Psk)
New member Username: Psk Post Number: 27 Registered: 11-2002 |
Mike, I spent 9 years of my life racing cars, and have won a sportscar series (and finished in the top five almost every other year), so yes fully understand your first comment, BUT: [Quote]Racing isn't a way to prove anything about "having the goods". [End Quote] Why then does Lambo go to the Nurburgring and set the lap time?. This is what I was trying to say. If Lambo JUST make road cars, why does everybody keep on doing MAX speed tests and lap time comparisons?. Who cares it is a road car. Whether it does 210 or 180 mph ... whoppy sh!t, it does not make a difference going to buy a loaf of bread at your corner shop ... unless you are interested in competition ... A lap time comparison does not tell me that it is a good comfortable road car, and does not overheat in traffic, etc. It is Lambo that is confusing me by NOT racing but then worrying so much about the cars performance, when all it is used for is driving from A to B. In the end racing is the only way manufactures have of proving anything official. But as I have said in the other thread ... magazine articles are all we really have as there are too many variables, thus the 0 to 60, and other tests are good indicators of relevant ROAD performance. In the end Lambo would have my respect more if they stopped w*nking around with top speed and lap times and said clearly to everybody that they make damn sexy ROAD cars. Ferrari (not the standard 550) and Porsche worry about lap times because they want to attract buyers for race series (such as the one over here in Aussie, where Porsche GT2s race against F360s and Vipers ... ) ... Lambo do not need to. Their companies (Lambo's) vision statement appears blurred to me. What is wrong with just making damn sexy road cars that can do say 180mph ... that is respectably fast enough! Pete ps: One other point. The cars that race do show that the company can either build a car, or have the components good enough to help a race shop build a car WITH THEIR NAME ON IT that can win races. It is the race series rule makers that make modern racing require such specialised cars. Le Mans should be for ROAD cars only ... wouldn't that be fantastic ... thus you have to sell over 10,000 units before you can homologate it (and other than safety gear it has to be dead standard exactly as per the road car) ... Sh!t I would fly over to watch that race. | ||
| Mike B (Srt_mike)
New member Username: Srt_mike Post Number: 30 Registered: 12-2002 |
Psk, Racing isn't a way to prove anything about "having the goods". This is something I see a lot and I find it quite comical. Some Viper folk talk about when they won LeMans, but the Viper you buy has nothing to do with LeMans. Likewise, the F360 bought has nothing to do with the F1 car. Anyone who has done any serious racing knows that the cars we see on the TV are very different than what we can buy - and also that racing is more about who has a bigger R&D budget than anything else. Furthermore, most race sanctioning bodies make sure the cars are evenly matched. The Vipers run with air restrictors in T1 and the Corvettes do not - and are allowed to run larger tires whereas the Viper is not. So, it's easy to comment on the evenness of the cars or how one car was faster than the other - but really, the SCCA cares nothing for whether a brand X, Y or Z wins, only that the viewers stay interested. So, slamming a car based on it's racing history (or lack of) doesn't say much to me about the road cars from the company. Lambo is what it is - they make some fine cars! One could just as easily say "so if Ferraris have so much race history, why can't their Murci competitor take on the Murci - made by a company with NO race experience?". The answer is that Ferrari doesn't race so they can build a better F575 - they build street cars, just like Lambo does. The best comparison between the street cars is an unbiased magazine review (if one exists) and testing of cars (in EQUAL levels of stock-ness) by owners. When it comes right down to it - we buy what we buy within the constraints of what we can afford, and with the looks and performance that we like. I'd guess most 575 owners could have gotten a Murci if they wanted, and vice versa. | ||
| PSk (Psk)
New member Username: Psk Post Number: 25 Registered: 11-2002 |
Man you Lambo owners must have a stressed life, refering to: [Quote]But, PSK, Lambo owners dont care about racing. Thats not the target market. They just want to be able to SAY that they have to fastest car, with the magazines to prove it. They dont actually go out and run their cars on the track (for the most part, I know there are exceptions to every rule). That is why you almost never see any Lambos on any podium on any race. [End Quote] Just spent squillions on the 'fastest car' and then have to continually read the mags to make sure that you have not been knocked off the top, and car suddenly devalued to an also ran ... and as every car has to be set-up and tuned for every track and ocassion for the best performance, this probably means that it is NOT actually the fastest car where you live ... thus you have to cruise the streets trying to prove it, before your ego deflates. Stuff that! There are a lot more important things in life. I would rather buy the Lambo Jeep thing just because it is out there Maybe Audi will rename their Le Mans sportscars to Lambo so that they can win it, and then they sort of will have made it ... and can stop spending squillions on screaming up and down really long roads, and lapping race tracks that are not used anymore ... Pete | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1076 Registered: 2-2001 |
We'll just wait to see until (IF) Lambo or privateers start racing their murcielagos against the 550/575s to see who wins. I think they'll be somewhat successful with VW behind them, as VW/Audi are true racing companies. So it will definitely be interesting to see. But, PSK, Lambo owners dont care about racing. Thats not the target market. They just want to be able to SAY that they have to fastest car, with the magazines to prove it. They dont actually go out and run their cars on the track (for the most part, I know there are exceptions to every rule). That is why you almost never see any Lambos on any podium on any race. Ernesto | ||
| PSk (Psk)
New member Username: Psk Post Number: 24 Registered: 11-2002 |
This is highly amusing to me this thread. On the other thread everybody gave me a hard time going on about Ferrari having racing history ... now we are trying to prove that a Lambo is faster by a single lap time on a race track. If Lambo wants to race, then race the bloody cars the proper way. This is the only way to prove to all the Lambo doubt'ers that they really have the goods. If they are really not into racing, then they should not be interested what-so-ever in their cars being faster than anybody elses ... let alone having a faster lap time. I just do not get it, why build a car that is apparently so competent on the track and NOT race it. A track car does not make a good road car, hence the 550 lap times ... read the articles: they all state that it is one of Ferraris best ROAD cars for a long time. The 550 race cars are completely different animals ... Thus my conclusion is 'what are Lambos cars aimed at'. For example: If I bought a F40, I would expect a no compromise race car that can go on the road. If I bought a 550 I would expect a fast and composed ROAD car that could be exercised on the track ... and do okay, but not brilliantly, but heh it was a fun day, etc. If I bought a Lambo, what do I get? An exotic car, that has no interest in racing and yet keeps wanting to be the fastest boy on the block. Thus is it going to be a hard sprung race car type thing that crashes over bumps ... but has not been designed with racing in mind ... thus is possibly uncomfortable for nothing? Obviously a fast and interesting car ... but who cares (about top speed and lap times) on the road. It is just bragging rights ... primary school stuff. Note: a road Ferrari is not a race car or the fastest, but we know that Ferrari can build them and win Le Mans, etc. Thus if the company wants outright performance they can do it ... and are prepared to prove it, or lose trying. Pete ps: I used to race cars, so I have a very simple view of the world. It is either a race car OR a road car, cannot be both as I am not interested in compromises ... as in the end the car without the performance compromises is the better race car ... | ||
| Andrew Menasce (Amenasce)
Member Username: Amenasce Post Number: 463 Registered: 10-2001 |
So what ??? Its the first lambo to be faster than a Ferrari around a track ..boohoo ! It only took them 40 years, a lighter , mid engined and more powerful car. And lets not forget that the Maranello clearly isnt a track car although it did win several races in the FIA GT championship. Before the Murcie, the Diablo GT was barely faster than a 550 M , and the SV was slower. Lets see what the 360 Stradale can do..and dont forget that the ring isnt the only track.Its the german manufacturers backyard so next lambos will be fast there but will they be fast around other tracks as well ? and if they are then they should race. | ||
| pete (Pete_peter)
New member Username: Pete_peter Post Number: 7 Registered: 12-2002 |
Murcielago for me, over a 575 grocery getter | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 274 Registered: 6-2002 |
I dont agree, i think the Lambo sounds better than the Ferrari, much more impressive. As for which car picks up more girls, well, i doubt that also. | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 334 Registered: 3-2001 |
Hey Jon...well track schedule goes like this.... if Im not working by then....40+ days. If I'm working, 20+ days. I will have to pick my spots a little more carefully. Your absence gives me more time to catch up to you at Summit Point. Have more kids! F this typing stuff...I'll call you now. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 338 Registered: 8-2001 |
Tino, Did not mean to talk down or imply anything negative about standard NSX's. Being a track rat and racer I am only interested in cars that have a "bent" toward track driving. The same holds true for Porsche's, of which I have owned several. The only ones in the current line up that I like are the GT2 and the older 996 GT3. Nothing wrong with a standard NSX that some Comptech parts can't cure. Regards, Jon | ||
| BJ (Bjkim)
New member Username: Bjkim Post Number: 38 Registered: 10-2002 |
I don't own either Ferrari or lambo at the moment. And here's my opinion on two cars. I love the style of either Lambo or Ferrari, however I love the sound of Ferrari not the sound of Lambo, which sounds like old Mustangs with loud exhaust. If you love to show off your car to high school students, then buy a lambo. However, Ferrari is better to pick up girls or ladies. | ||
| Tino (Bboxer)
Junior Member Username: Bboxer Post Number: 218 Registered: 8-2001 |
Jon, For us NSX "little people",the R version is pretty easy and inexpensive to emulate with a few dollars. Many of us have NSX's that are as good if not superior to the R. | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 337 Registered: 8-2001 |
That explains it. The NSX-R is about the only NSX I would ever consider buying. Impressed that in R form it that much faster. Thanks for the link. Jon | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 273 Registered: 6-2002 |
Jon, heres a link for the Nsx. http://www.bestmotoring.jp/backnumber/vs/in_55.html | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 336 Registered: 8-2001 |
Hey Matt what's up? Got your 2003 track schedule set yet? I am cramming everything in to March and April since the baby arrives in early June. Will be absent from the track/race scene between May and early September. Hope to see you at the track. Regards, Jon | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 333 Registered: 3-2001 |
James....what I would do for a 956 or 962! | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 335 Registered: 8-2001 |
Allen, Thanks for your correction on the lap times. Was receiting from memory so I was off a bit. Curious about the NSX. Stock and who drove it? That is indeed a seriously fast time for an NSX since the 355 did it in 8:13 and the last offical lap time by Horst in a NSX was a 8:38 in 1998. Here is a good website with offical times for two and four wheeled vehicles in including street, tuner, and race cars. It hasn't been updated in a while but still shows a lot of into. http://www.nordschleife.no/ Regards, Jon | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 272 Registered: 6-2002 |
The 996 gt2 lapped 7.46 and 7.47. A Modified 600hp 993 Gt2 driven By Horst posted a 7.46. Horst in fact was the driver in the Murcielago in its 7.52 time.Horst also posted a 7.43.4 in a 620hp Gt2. Only car that beats that is a Gemballa Gtr Porsche at 7.32.52 driven by Wolfgang Kaufman. According to these times the Murcielago would place 2nd. And if you want to use the different driver excuse, than Horst placed a Murcielago 13 seconds faster than 575M, or 15 seconds faster than a 550. Also if you guys want to resort to saying the Nurburgring is a hp track, than how do you explain the Acura Nsx's 7.56? | ||
| Jon P. Kofod (95f355c)
Member Username: 95f355c Post Number: 334 Registered: 8-2001 |
All this would be highly dependant on your source for the lap time. If it's a valid "official" lap time then it's clearly faster. The 8:07 time set by the 550 was a 1999 550 set by Horst Von Surma (sp?) who is a retired professional racer and editor of Auto Motor Und Sport. He holds something like 17 lap records at the Ring and practically every official lap time recorded at the Ring in road cars was set by him during testing by the magazine. Many German car companies use him to test their cars with unofficial lap times before produciton models are out. A 7:43 is nothing to sneeze and quite fast. If mmemory serves me the new Porsche 996 GT2 did it in 7:40 or thereabouts. The only other street car that would beat the time listed for the Lambo currently. A Lambo M should be significantly quicker with all that additonal Hp. The Ring is a HP track. Just look at all the lap records in the "tuner" class that keep getting broken. In the past year Gembella, Tech Art, and several other German 911 tuners have broken the record several times. It stood somewhere around 7:45 at the beginning of the year and was lowered 4 times during 2002. In each case the 911's that broke the record did so on street tires but all the cars had at elast 600 hp and more. Currently Gembella is working on a 800-900 911 that will be street legal and will break under the 7:20 record. I think 7:23 or thereabouts is the current record. Again it is pointless to comare tuner cars with stock cars but looking at cars on street rubber it's clear this a a hp track so the Lambo number doesn't look unusual. Regards, Jon P. Kofod 1995 F355 Challenge #23 | ||
| Dave (Maranelloman)
Member Username: Maranelloman Post Number: 671 Registered: 1-2002 |
22 seconds indeed proves the Murc is faster. Remember, it has a 65 HP advantage & AWD, so it SHOULD be faster on a track that notoriously rewards HP & launch speed out of corners! | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 271 Registered: 6-2002 |
Also whats going to happen when the Baby Lambo hits the streets, since its been lapping the Nurburgring approx 6 seconds faster than the Murcielago? Will we need to compare that car with Ferraris F1 cars? Also the Murcielago is from what ive read, approx 200pds lighter than a 575 and about 70hp more. | ||
| James Glickenhaus (Napolis)
Member Username: Napolis Post Number: 313 Registered: 10-2002 |
Matt how do you like the 6:11 the 956 did in 83? Makes ALL of us look slo... | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 270 Registered: 6-2002 |
I posted this for all the big Ferrari people who want to see track times. Funny how all these people come up with a million excuses now, but when i posted some doubt before i was said to be making excuses. For all the doubters out there, anther driver, in another Murcielago, posted a 7.52. Thats still 13 seconds faster. Also, in the Autocar mag they show a map of the Ring, full course. As for the Pagani, well even in the Top Gear video they said the Lambo could hold much more speed through the turns than the Pagani, and the Pagani made time up in the straights. The Ring does not concentrate on straightline speed, but more braking and turning. The Murcielago did post 176mph down the main straight though, but no doubt that the Pagani is the faster car. Ernesto, maybe you should post in off topic, or maybe a separate topic for "dreamers" Also, why does a Murcielago have to be compared with an Enzo? Why not a 575M, which is in the same price, same weight, same class,v12 etc? That is the direct competitor for the Murcielago, not the Enzo, which is basicly a race car, not a grand touring street car. | ||
| Matt Karson (Squidracing)
Member Username: Squidracing Post Number: 332 Registered: 3-2001 |
Lets be real about this.....if the Murc lapped Nurb 22 seconds quicker than a 575M, it is an absolutely faster car. NO IFS ANDS OR BUTS. PLAIN OUT SMOKED IT. It seems hard for me to believe that a car with "similar" hp could be that much quicker. The ONLY reasons I could think of are: wet versus dry conditions....or highly skilled professional driver who is familiar with Nurb, versus a poorly skilled driver who has no familiarity with Nurb. 22 SECONDS/OR X SECONDS/MINUTE IS AN ETERNITY!! BUT, AS I HAVE SAID BEFORE...IN ORDER TO MAKE TIME COMPARISIONS, ALL THINGS MUST BE EQUAL. SAME DRIVER/TIRE TEMPERATURES/DAY/TIME/AMBIENT TEMPERATURE/ETC.... Differences in these variables will make differences in lap times, but 22 seconds per lap, or x/seconds per minute on track, is more than an eternity. As we can all agree on....OR SHOULD ALL AGREE ON....these singular comparisions are useless. Just my jaded opinion. | ||
| Neil A. Campbell (Bimmerlover)
New member Username: Bimmerlover Post Number: 31 Registered: 10-2002 |
i know this is a ferrari board but whenever someone posts numbers that beat what the ferrari does best and that is "track" people starting making excuses and insults. now i know i havent driven in either the 575/murcie but jeez if the numbers are true then weather, barring a rain storm, cannot suffice in accounting for a 22 second difference. i think if the murcielago had a prancing horse on the hood people would rave about to no end. face it its a great car, and for a third of the price of an enzo, try gettin one at msrp haha, i think it performs more than well | ||
| Ernesto (T88power)
Intermediate Member Username: T88power Post Number: 1073 Registered: 2-2001 |
Maybe the Lambo ran on the short track? I have a video of the Pagani DESTROYING a Murceilago around a track. I think it is from Top Gear. Ernesto PS. This is OFF TOPIC!! In the future please post this in OT or in lamborghinilist. Thanks. | ||
| Peter S�derlund /328 GTB -88 (Corsa)
Member Username: Corsa Post Number: 290 Registered: 4-2001 |
I suppose track temperature, air temperature, humidity, traffic, tire condition, tire type, driver condition, driver experience (especially of the Ring), aids on/off etc. was exactly the same. It's a 4 sec difference on a GP-track which seams to be a lot. Tires only could make up for 3 of them. Let's not forget that Lambo M is a brand new mid-engined and the basic design of the 550/575 is a quite old and it's front engined. To find out what's achievable from Lambo/Ferrari respectively it should be compared with Enzo. Unfortunately Lambo M is ugly and do not give driver experience as expected (according to various sources, never driven any myself). I would take a 360 (Challenge) Stradale. Ciao Peter | ||
| izel k. (Ferrarist)
Junior Member Username: Ferrarist Post Number: 51 Registered: 3-2001 |
I'd also take the 575 but 22 seconds is a huge difference and doesn't seem so realistic to me?? i don't want to believe. | ||
| John A. Suarez (Futureowner)
Member Username: Futureowner Post Number: 353 Registered: 3-2002 |
Strange that the Top Gear segment comparing the Pagani and Lambo say otherwise. What gives? | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 269 Registered: 6-2002 |
Id take a Murcielago any day. | ||
| Omar (Auraraptor)
Junior Member Username: Auraraptor Post Number: 176 Registered: 9-2002 |
Allan....here we go again BTW sweet numbers. | ||
| john (Johnwto)
New member Username: Johnwto Post Number: 38 Registered: 6-2002 |
that's a huge difference. however, i'd still take a 550/575 any day | ||
| allan fiedler (Allanlambo)
Member Username: Allanlambo Post Number: 268 Registered: 6-2002 |
I know Lambos cant stop, cant brake, are only for posers, etc, etc. But Autocar Magazine did take a Murcielago to the Nurburgring and recorded a 7.43.2 lap time. This places it firmly in second place, even ahead of the Pagani Zonda C12S.Correct me if i'm wrong, but that places it 22seconds faster than Ferrari 575M that was recently tested. Would this be considered a small difference in lap time, or a HUGE difference? |